Starting your smile? Yeah, of course. Cover everything else tonight. Cover everything else? Yeah. Hence how we cover it. What I'd like to do, Mike, is go a little bit forward from where we were last week and then go backwards. Here's what my thinking is, Dogen says, enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water.

[01:17]

So here he's starting to talk about waking up to what is. And he had preceded this by describing what is within a sort of Buddhist context using a couple of analogies. Waking up, enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. As I was saying last night, for those of you who were there, talking about the relationship between awakened being and what is, in contrast to karmic being. Karmic being, our life is energized by our desires and our fears and the confusions that arise when we fully assert our desires and fears and things don't turn out the way we want them to.

[02:26]

Then we get a little confused. I really want it. Why don't I have it? I'm giving it all my energy. It's a little bit like being a baseball fan. When you're a baseball fan and your team is playing and you go to a baseball game, it's a completely different experience from just going to a baseball game and just being there for the sights and the signs and the smells of the game. It's like when your team scores, your heart soars. And when the other team scores, your heart plummets. And your team wins, the world is a better place. It's more hopeful, it's more filled with abundance. Your team loses, the world shrinks, becomes darker, sadder.

[03:31]

And so that's the nature of what is, because this is a karmic life. And that passionate relationship to existence contributes to a certain experience of reality. And then Dogen's saying, when we wake up, to what is, it isn't like then your team wins all the time. What was that? I thought I was quitting then. nothing has to change about that whole karmic way of relating but how it's related to has been wakened up to so then we need to go back and and see from buddhist terms you know how how how was this karmic existence thought of you know and then suddenly

[05:15]

As I was talking about last week, he has two. The first one he uses is, he's talking about the two attributes of codependent arising. The first attribute, and even beyond that, you could also say this talks about the Majolica school in which all ways that reality is conceived are constructs. They're relative. an independent solid reality it's like quantum physics you know quantum physics says the observer becomes part of the experiment it's not possible to be separate from it so we are a contributing constituent to the arising experience and then to step back from that a little bit Dogen simply saying here, depend upon your point of view, you see reality in a certain way.

[06:25]

If you're a Giants fan and the Giants are playing, well, guess what? It really influences what's experienced. If you're riding a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore moves. If you keep your eyes on the boat, you can see So if we're just watching the external, we suffer the gain and loss of who wins the game. If we watch the internal, we see the arising of our own preference and our own fears and how that influences the dynamic expression of our being. And then he expands that to everything. Similarly, if you examine myriad things under the passion of your karmic existence, you get a certain consequence.

[07:37]

So that every experience has this conditioned nature to it. And if you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has an unchanging self. So if you really study this, you see that every perspective is a relative perspective. Is that two of two? Yeah, you're in perfect shape. Really, we're in perfect shape. So here, you know, this relative existence that doesn't have an independent, objective perspective, it's all relative.

[08:56]

And since the perspective is always changing, the reality is always changing, and so we see that side. And then, Dogen turns and he looks at the other side, which is looking at that each moment is completely itself. So on one hand, we see the relative nature of existence. And we see its interdependence. And then on the other hand, we see that each thing, each moment is completely itself. That even though we may be present Our presence might in the moment may be there in our usual karmic life because we bring to it desire and aversion.

[10:10]

We're not completely committing to it just as it is. When we completely commit to it just as it is, we're not referring to it, we're not turning it into a relative truth. It's just this. And as I was saying last week, you know, in Uji, you know, Dovin's pointing out being time, but even time is a relative truth. Just as motion is a relative truth, time is a relative truth. In a way, time is an expression of motion. So when this is just itself and not being referred to outside It's like there is no time. There is just this. Or the way Dovin puts it is this has its own past and future. All that arises is now.

[11:23]

So those are the two constituents of codependent arising. which I think I just did a pretty lousy job with Greg. Sorry about that. Any questions? So is, would you say awakening is another view or another, there's no way to, if everything, if there's no, There is no objective reality outside of conditioned existence. So awakening is letting go of views or another view, another way of relating? So Dogen said, it's like the moon reflecting on the water. So he's talking about the relationship between the two.

[12:35]

It sheds light on karmic existence. It doesn't participate in it. So it sees it for what it is. So it's not creating karma? Seeing karma for what it is in that moment. And then that seeing becomes part of the constituent of the next moment. Remember earlier we were saying, and Durban was saying, and this continues. Continues going on.

[13:40]

No, not that part. And then continue going on being Buddhists. Continue actualizing Buddhists. Thank you. Thank you. However, there are actualized Buddhists. who go on actualizing Buddha. So that contributes, that awakening contributes to the next moment. But in that moment, it simply experiences what is without any interference. The same way the moonlight does not interfere with the water. Any other questions? The awakening, the realization of both constituent parts of codependent rising, or just one of them?

[14:51]

The awakening is seeing that. Okay. In a way, although I describe them as two constituent parts, they're really just two sides of one coin. On one hand you could say from the position of relative existence and everything's a dynamic interaction, there's no time, there's no now. And on the other hand you could say that This just being completely itself independent of any comparison to anything else, there's no time. Because time's relative, a relative experience. But they come to the same place in a very different way.

[15:58]

Can you also say there's a moon when you look up? Can you say there's a moon when you look up? Yes, and then when you look down, there's another moon in the water. Meaning, can you say you look up and there's a moon, and then you look down and there's a moon? Just to see it. Just to see it. Can you speak about it? Okay. I was just asking, you know, if enlightenment is just this capability of looking up and looking down as well. The scanning of perspective. No, it's not bad. Just to be able to see it. Well, I think it's important. It's important right here what he's talking about is the relationship between the two of them.

[17:06]

enlightenment is not part of our karmic interaction. Maybe within our karmic life, we want practice to have a certain kind of efficacy. We want it to fit into our desires and fears, but it doesn't. It's independent of them. It shines the light upon it. It doesn't change the water of our karmic light. It just simply illuminates it. And I think that's what he's talking about here. It's a relationship. The relationship between the two. That's what he's bringing out here. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. No matter what you think enlightenment is or isn't, that doesn't change it.

[18:17]

No matter what you want it to be or what you want it not to be, that doesn't change it. And similarly, enlightenment simply sees things for what it is. It isn't an agent of our karmic life. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. So even though the illumination is all-pervasive, the nature of awakening is reflected, can be reflected even in the smallest instance.

[19:23]

It's like when you're sitting Zazen and you just see clearly some small activity of being. You just see it for what it is. Thinking. And in that moment there's awakening to thinking. And even though it may be just a very short, simple thought, it's just seen completely for itself. And out of that, we get a taste of, we get a glimpse of waking up. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dew drops on the ground. So the whole process of awakening and all the implications of it can be seen, you know, in the tiniest instance of our karmic light.

[20:31]

Something as, you know, maybe as superficial as being a giant's man. Maybe that's not superficial. Anyways, it's okay. So I think, you know, here the dew drop on the grass is, you know, it's like some small instance of life. You know, so even a small instance of life, when it's seen clearly, it can illustrate this whole process of awakening. cannot hinder enlightenment just as the drop of water does not hinder the moon and the sky. That small instance doesn't hinder the process of awakening.

[21:43]

It doesn't change it. Sort of illustrating again what their relationship is. And then he makes another interesting point. He says, the depth of the drop is the height of the moon. I don't know if that's what you were trying to get to, Johan. But what do you think that means? The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. I'll give you another translation then. That's why I think it says exactly the same thing. Yes, it does. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. About no matter how far away the moon is, it's still reflected.

[22:51]

You're going to take them back? Well, I was going to say it's not the circumstances, but it's how deeply you see into that, which is the nature of your awakening. What is it to see into it deeply? To see the constructive nature. Yeah. I think it says there's no time or space because it's all relative. And because it says the height or, you know, the space of the water it creates. So there is no space or time. If you're enlightened, that's it. Well, I see it a little differently. I think he is asserting height and a depth. Well, but it does not matter. If it's a very... big pond, the size of the moon will be big relative to the size of the pond.

[23:57]

If it's a dew drop, then you will see it tiny little moon. And the relationship between the size of the moon and the drop of water will be similar to the whatever bigger pond. Right? So in that way, the relativity is there always, just like what you said earlier. So there is no space or time in this. And if you're enlightened, it's everywhere. It's not bounded by anything. I think that's true. Here's how I read it. I read it that here he's talking about Let's say you have an experience and you're angry. And then you look at the experience, you look a little more deeply into the experience and you see you're angry because something happened that hurt you.

[25:08]

And then you look a little bit more deeply and you see that you were hurt because you had certain views about the world. And then you look a little bit more deeply and you see the nature of holding views and how they're always relative, but in holding them, they have a consequence. They generate a sort of a karmic consequence. It's like you see more deeply into it. And as you see more deeply into it, the degree of awakening. So first of all, it's like, oh, There's anger. Well, that's an awakening. But then as the more depth to the inside, more height to the moon. I'm saying we're capable of going as deep into ourselves as the moon was enlightened it could take us.

[26:17]

In other words, enlightenment is total, complete. The drops seem to be able to handle the entire height of the moon. And the moon is, what is it? 88,000 miles away, I would say. And that's contained from the drop. Is that what you said? I was. And I was saying that each moment has that potential to... see deeply into it. And... Consequently, it has that potential to be awakened. Isn't there this metaphor of somebody trapped in a cave? And then there's just tiny little bits of space. Could you speak up after the cave? Okay. So there's another metaphor. And so if somebody's trapped in a cave, and then there's a tiny little space above his head, and then the light... In a well.

[27:17]

Yeah. I'm trying to modify that. He's trying to modify it. And then he starts digging in, so more light starts to shake in. But that's one method. Another way is to light up from inside. So that's immediate, and just everything is lit up. So there's no... How does that apply to this one? Because you were saying to dig into the emotion, right? Or anger. And you said the more... you apply to that method, the more you will be awakened, you will be able to see what's underneath. And that seemed to me like it's that metaphor of digging the well, you know, opening up the space by each, you know, he's opening up by the size, he opens up step by step, right? You go layer, each layer underneath layer, and you see it more and more.

[28:18]

But there's another way, isn't it? Just light up from inside and everything's lit up. I'm not sure how, I don't see how that fits into this metaphor, this image. Because I think if you think of what I was offering a little earlier, if you see there is no depth, But he was saying it's everywhere, and everything's a uniform. But the size is how we perceive it. But in fact, there's no size. Because the moon can be, as long as there's something to reflect, there will be a moon. And the moon, its relative size to that drop of water will be similar to other drop of water with different size. You see what I'm saying now? I think I see what you're saying. But I have to say, I don't think that's the point he's making in this sentence.

[29:22]

Maybe you could argue that more persuasively in the next sentence. I mean, it seems to me he's starting off and he's saying, here's the relationship. Awakening does not change your karmic activity. sheds light on it and your karmic activity whatever your desires and and aversions are do not change the nature of awakening no matter what you want it to be or what you want don't want it to be doesn't change it the nature of awakening is just the nature of how it is so those two can shed light on it but In that instance, it doesn't change it. And then as he goes on to say, even the tiniest moment of experience offers the opportunity to do this.

[30:32]

And then he goes on, and in this sentence he says, the depth of the drop is the height of the moon. The degree to which we fully enter the moment influences adapt from the realization. And then he says, each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. But when we fully penetrate it, then we see That moment is just... It's a complete expression of the interconnectedness of all being.

[31:32]

Can't you get what you said before? The relationship or like the... the deeper you go into it, or the more you are rather, or the more you see it. Yeah. The deeper it, the... the next... Yeah. Well, the way I read it on it, it's not that it's a contradiction, but first of all, he's saying... When we see it in this way, we can see what you might call a deeper insight. It can be a shallower insight or a deeper insight. But then when you fully see it, it's beyond any comparison.

[32:37]

It's beyond any qualification or limit. It's vast. It's like we have a moment experience and then we relate to it in the context of self. But when we fully plumb that experience, we drop off body and mind, we drop off self. And that moment, even though it's just this particular small moment, it exemplifies the totality of all being. It exemplifies the interdependence of all being, just the same way, you know, a supernova exploding does. So what I understand you're saying is kind of in the way it builds up this battery, like first he puts it out and then he sends each reflection however long or short. Yeah.

[33:40]

I mean, that's why I read it, that one's just an extension of the other. Any other comment? Yeah. So this last thing that you described, that's something different than seeing deeply into your attached point here. The way I read it, Dana, it's like when you drop off body and mind, Any qualifications, any limitations that you were putting on it, any way you were referencing it to self, any way you were referencing it to shallow or deep, just drops away. Because they're all the constituents of self, just in a more subtle way. So how would that be helpful to the angry person that you started this with? anger, hurt, fixed view, the nature of having a view, in that all views are relative and as such have no fixed being and no permanence, and that all existence has

[35:13]

is impermanent and to that degree is just completely unlimited by the fixed ideas we have about it. It goes beyond our concepts. So any thought we can have at all When it's not clung to, it just opens up to unlimited being. So in that point, we've just gone beyond any notion of my body, my mind, myself, time, space. So it's vast and limitless. And awakening through it is vast and limitless. Is it glutey amber? Well... It sees it for what it is.

[36:31]

Well, why not? I'm asking. I mean, if you go with the definition of England, there's mainly England In the mind, you know, the concentration of things coming together in enlightenment, I mean, you could find a definition. Now, back to the next year, my question, does this go together? Does it go together or not? Yeah, it's anger and enlightenment. Well, I mean, let me see if I've got your point, is that anger has its own arising out of its own karmic constituents.

[37:48]

And then... So those karmic constituents are illuminated. And that's the process of awakening. And is that a sequential thing? But if we hold it that when there's full presence and all idea of something other than this, there's no sense of time. So there's no sense of sequential existence either. There's just that suchness. Well, I would also see that more light. Right. So...

[38:54]

enlightenment's just a verb? You know, I think I think we could say something like this, that there's gradual practice within the context of our karma and there's sudden realizations beyond the context of our karma. Does the moon need my help? In the process of gradual awakening, there is human endeavor. When everything's dropped off, it's beyond human agency. Is it up to me to pick? You know, Dogen's teachings say that every moment, just like any moment, even a moment as insignificant as a drop of dew, a body of water as small as a drop of dew on a blade of grass, has this vast limitless potential.

[40:26]

Does it need your help to have that vast limitless potential? No. Does it require your effort to accommodate, open up to that vast limitless potential, up to the point where it goes beyond? I mean, if we go back to what Dogen said earlier, it's like, in your striving, you move further from it. You know, we covered that last week. But maybe we could muddy the waters and say that we strive to see the nature of striving. Just don't worry, you know, it says you can't stop enlightenment. You can't hinder enlightenment.

[41:31]

You can't hinder enlightenment, so... Maybe he doesn't even need our assistance, as you just said. It's common whether we like it or not. It's common whether we like it or not? Well... It's always... You know, it's always present. Except we're not realizing it because we're fed up in our... And I don't forget, Dugan also said, you know, we study the ways to study the self. You know, we do study these karmic involvements and hindrances to see how we get blinded by them. You know, the idea of slacking didn't even enter my mind when I said that question. I knew that practice is always a continuous thing. We'll even practice whether we like it or not. It just seems to happen. It just seems to happen. Well, let's rewind that a little bit.

[42:40]

Stand your ground. What would you say? That's what the Lotus Sintra says. The Lotus Sintra says what? We're there. We're there. Well, do we realize it? in real life does it matter does the moon care does the moon care well the process of awakening is simply a process The human's correct. Yes. As Nagarjuna said, the realities are constructs. The suffering is real. Just that whole last two sentences, you were like, they're out.

[43:52]

So, yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Nagarjuna said that the realities are just simply constructs. They're intrinsically empty, but the suffering is real. Do we care? Do we suffer? Do we care about suffering? Yeah. Does the moon care? The moon is just a prophet. So are you saying that nirvana is samsara and samsara is nirvana? I'm saying that they both are a way of relating to the activity of being. Relate to it like this, nirvana. Relate to it like this, samsara. Can it be in one body if you imagine? Can it be in one body?

[44:56]

What does that mean? Like one is another. Another is one. They're both ways of relating to this same ground of being. You know, the moment arises out of karmic conditioning and then it's related to. That relating is what Dogana is saying. The relating to isn't a relating that changes the moment, It sees it for what it is. Karmically, we grasp the moment and want to change it out of our karmic agendas, and we end up with samsara. How does that fit in the Lotus Sutra? Amen. Amen? I said amen, yeah. We're back in alignment with the Lotus Sutra. Yep. No, I'm good for that. Did that answer Ana's question, that there can be anger and enlightenment at the same time?

[45:58]

Well... I would use common sense and say that, you know, Dogen is saying, And I think with the card with Buddhist teaching that each moment it's fully capable, it is fully representative of the nature of what is. So therefore we can awaken to the nature of what is in that moment. However, the afflictions of anger and how that affects consciousness limits the capacity. stepping back to say whether you're angry in a dark room or a light room the anger is probably going to be pretty much the same in other words yes we can be angry and enlightened at the same time looked at that way perhaps we can just see it better and maybe to put it in another way and

[47:25]

Anger is just energy. When we become nothing but the energy of anger, it's realized or it's intrinsic being. So maybe if you put it that way, it doesn't seem so much like we're sort of trying to make it something it's not. You have a question? Yeah. That kind of throws me off a little bit because it's really a process. It's not a discrete nature of the moment. It's a process. What is a process? Wigging up. Realizing that everything is in existence at the same time.

[48:36]

Anger, enlightenment, the me, you, the moon, the big rock, everything has their fear all the time. But the word time and the word moment and the word instant kind of fix these things as fixed events. And it's hard to consensualize, Jeff. Everything can happen simultaneously. I can get rid of the words. Moment and kind and instant. It's easier for me to get comfortable with everything. But we have to abide back in the back. Because when you put it in those kinds of words, it sounds like everything does have intrinsic permanent existence. So we have to add back in that the notion of codependent arising, that the momentary or any expression of being is the consequence of those interactive constituents of that moment.

[49:49]

So the potentiality of that is present in any moment. What's actualized in that moment is quite particular. No, a unique moment comes into existence. Moment? is a relative notion. It's not an absolute expression. Nothing is absolute. Everything is relative. And there's a unique expression arising. And when that unique expression is completely actualized or

[50:54]

experience as it is, the practice of actualizing it illuminates it. And that's awakening. So actualizing and awakening are the same activity. That's Dovan's teaching. That's correct. Because everything's impermanent. And how that actualization is thought of is a limited notion. Any ideas we have about it, understandings we create about it, responses we have to it, are not it. They're something we have about it. Okay.

[52:00]

Are you still in line with the Loaded Sutra? Are you still in line with the Loaded Sutra? Are you still in line with the Loaded Sutra? So that's how I understand Dogen's last sentence in this paragraph. Every reflection, each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the Doudrava and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. It's like the particular and the awakening fully actualizing in the moment. Okay. Can we move on from there? Or should we just all sit downstruck for a moment?

[53:09]

Okay. When Dharma does not fill your body and mind, when Dharma, that's the key word in this tent, right? Dharma. When dharma does not fill your body and mind, you think it's already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand something that's missing. I think the word understand is a little tricky there. I'm going to see if I can find it in translation. Realize the missing one. Is this when it's in university? Yeah, realize. Yeah, realize that something is missing. What do you think that is? Here's how Lanzumi Roshi translates it.

[54:29]

When the truth does not fill our body and mind, we think we have enough. When the truth fills our body and mind, we realize something is missing. Any thoughts on that? Yes, Carl. Is it like, if you really learned it then, in like years and weeks, they'd rise high and not be had to let them pile as long as they aren't empty, but once they're full, and swollen with rain, and then they begin to grow humble and lower their home.

[55:30]

That's the book. Yeah, that's it. I would like... We've said that, Monty. The literal understanding? Should I understand that? Understand. The more you know, the more you realize how little the depth is. The more you know, the more you realize how little you know. You know, but your knowledge is like a stone. That's it long. Or it's like when Dogen went to Rui Jing, you know, and he said to him once, he said, well, about 15 years ago, I thought, okay, I got it.

[56:33]

And then I kept practicing. And then five years after that, I thought, okay, now I got it. And then I kept practicing, and then about five years after that, I thought, okay, now I really got it. And he brought that to reaching that thought. Yes? I was just reminded of how I ate that. It might be relevant to, um, to know it's delusional, not to know it's lack of discrimination. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I wonder if that is a version of it. You know it's delusional.

[57:35]

And what was the second half of it? Not to know. Not to know is? Lack of discrimination. Lack of discrimination. In the context of discriminating mind. Yeah. Which is where we think we come up on the word understanding. Yeah. That's right. We wanted to steer away from that and use a more non-dual verb. Yeah. Sounds like it would work too. Things that exist are imperfect and can never live up to our hopes and fears about them. Things that exist are not perfect and can never live up to the demands of our hopes and fears. It seemed to me that was like two ways to look at it, you know, one more relative and then one more absolute.

[58:50]

And in the more relative way, yes, I think it's something like the more you know, the more you don't know. The more you know, you don't know. There's that side of it. You know, you... You learn, you have some insight into the Darwin, you say, okay, now I got it. I got it. And then you keep practicing and you see, well, that was just one perspective or that was, that perspective had its own limited understanding. And you realize that no perspective can get it. That it goes beyond all perspective. And then it gets more towards an absolute truth. It's like we were saying earlier that there is no way to grasp awakening in any way we conceptualize it limits it.

[59:54]

And that this potential of being is always there. But even in a relative sense, the more we study life and the more we see the complexity of existence, I remember reading a book by a Zen teacher. And he wrote this chapter around Zazen. And all he said was, here's what I do, and here's the experience I have when I do it. And he made no conclusions from that. He did not say, everybody should do this. This is the right experience. He didn't say anything more than that. No. It is very precise. This is what I do. This is precisely what I do. And this is what happens when I do it. And if you think about it, can any of us with conviction say anything more than that? This is what I do and this is the experience I have when I do it.

[61:01]

And yet what an accomplishment to be able to say, this is what I do. Rather than just sort of doing a whole bunch of things, lots of consciousness. Last word, please. Consciously. Not so consciously. And also not quite noticing the consequence of doing. So in a relative sense, there's even that. And then in a more absolute sense, it goes beyond knowing. For example... sail out in a boat into the midst of an ocean where no land is in sight and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular and does not look any other way. So from the particular perspective from which you're looking at existence, you get a particular result.

[62:11]

Because of Well, he continues, but the ocean is neither round nor square. Its features are infinite in variety. It's like a palace. It's like a jewel. It only looks circular given the limitation of how far you can see at that time. All things are like this. Although there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, You see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety. Cold worlds of that. It's not only around you, It's also directly beneath your feet or in a drop of water.

[63:15]

So, any comments on that? I have to move further you that you were saying earlier, the more of those varieties, the more you can see. Uh-huh. Like the person, you know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm sure we had gone on an intuitive, kind of visceral level. This kind of makes sense. I mean, there's a lot of things that you need to get your claw that don't give sense for you. Yeah. This part's like, okay, I kind of feel that. It's that. Yeah. You know, all right, I can see that.

[64:23]

You have to worry a little bit of this part, don't you? It's kind of like, it seems reasonable. Yeah. Exactly. Huh. I can kind of understand that. Where am I going wrong? Right. You have to do something, doesn't it? Or maybe the challenge in this part is to understand the implication of that. That all our cherished opinions and views are really just defined by the limits of our thinking and how we're seeing the world. Maybe we all need to take the stance of that Zen teacher who just says, this is what I do and this is my experience. I'm not offering any conclusion.

[65:25]

I'm not telling you how everybody should do the Zen or what the experience of it is or the profound Dharma. I'm just telling you what happens for me. Would that be an example of a lack of discrimination if you also can see what others are doing? You can also perhaps be beyond yourself what you're doing. Wouldn't that be a lack of discrimination? Get them far enough into Possibility. In that teacher's presentation? Is that what you're saying? To simply embrace that. Just to simply stop right there? Right. Yeah.

[66:27]

I mean, here's not how it is. I don't know what it is. We're talking about the possibility. Perhaps beyond that, and that we're building is also. In a way, what I was trying to say, you know, we need to be aware that when we extrapolate from our own experience and draw conclusions, you know, this is what I'm seeing, therefore, the ocean is right. Well, how about if I just stop and say, this is what I'm seeing, you know, I'm seeing a bindery to the ocean that's like this. Science is concerned about hypothesis, right?

[67:34]

You create a hypothesis and then you observe what's happening and see does it confirm or deny the hypothesis. But even within science, you never absolutely confirm a hypothesis. That's the nature of science. So in a way, this is no different. You can observe something that negates the hypothesis. But you can't say, therefore, this hypothesis is always true. So Dogen is just offering this up because our common way of thinking is so different. If I see it a certain way, then that's an absolute truth. If I see the ocean as rind, the ocean is rind. And anybody who disagrees with me has got to... I think that example you gave last week on global celibacy at the event center, in spite of, well, maybe unobservable reality, but in spite of what you said.

[68:52]

So that's which I don't know why it reminds me of that, and being an example of That was even more different, right? I mean, she had a fixed idea that inhibited even taking in any information. At this point, we've got to the point where we're taking in information. You know, we're taking in our vision. but we're extrapolating from it. You know, the building's saying, the experiencing you're having is the experience you're having. Please remember that the ocean is infinite in its variety. What you see seems to indicate a change in existence, seems to indicate that the ocean is very on the left in time.

[70:03]

That's not really the thing. He said that it's shifting. You can't perceive that. I'm not so sure he's saying it's... He said that its features are infinite or higher. Yeah. Well, I guess you could say that that's the shifting. I'd like to give it more to say that he was saying, and if you put a limit on them, it's going to strike. Even if you say, OK, well, it's not circular, it's rectangular or something. I mean, basically, he's saying that the nature of existence is so incredibly complex that that any fixed definition you give it folds short of what it really is, because it's infinite variety.

[71:08]

To me, the challenge there is, can we let that sink in? Can we look at the fixed ideas we have about reality? We have about ourself. Can we look at the way we've extrapolated from the experiences we've had, to these fixed views of reality, of self, of all sorts of things. And yet, we do exist within our own constructed reality. So then the next piece is about our constructed reality. A fish swims in the ocean. But no matter how far it swims, there's no end to the water. You don't go outside your own construct of reality.

[72:15]

The bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies, there's no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When activity is large, their field is large, when their need is small, their field is small. You know, within this realm of existence, We don't go beyond it. But the subjective experience of it can be larger or smaller. When consciousness is calmer, more settled, and more concentrated,

[73:33]

perception is stronger. So we can proceed with more clarity. So we might say, well, the capacity of the hands, the field is larger. Or when the mind is more agitated or more fixated, like the example I gave of that person. Everybody here is some of it. Strong, fixed idea. And the realm of her reality is held within that. In many ways we do that. You have a fixed... You're obsessing on something. And you're held within that reality. You have a toothache. And then your world becomes the world of toothache.

[74:38]

Your tooth is this size. And you live inside that toothache. So our field can be large and our field can be small, but it's still the field of our dynamic existence arising in the context of our own being. This each of them totally covers its full range and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves, the earth will die it once. If the fish leaves, the water will die it once. Know that the water is life and the fish is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. What do you say? Know that water is life and air is life. Thank you. I did very well. Know that water is light and air is light and the bird is light and the fish is light.

[75:46]

Light must be the bird and light must be the fish. It's a codependent existence. From the perspective we experience reality, we create reality. We're intertwined with the reality within which we live. We co-create it. And that co-creation is the existence that we live in, that we participate in. It's symbiotic. It's impossible, it's possible. It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this.

[76:59]

Well, this translation says there are further implications than ramifications. Why do you think you said that? Why do we said that? Because I think he's reminding us, you know, that when he uses an analogy, it's an example of something more than just this particular, you know? He's saying this, you know, I'm not just talking about fish. Can't these try to get us to find our own analysis of understanding for ourselves? Yeah. Well, there's a way in which, you know, someone offers you an analogy and your mind just holds it in the framework of the analogy. Oh, a fish needs to live in water. Okay. But can you get the implication of it? You know, this analogy applies to existence. You know, it's another teaching of codependent arising of interrelatedness.

[78:05]

And then he said, perhaps the plight is a similar existence, as is enlightenment and people. Now, if the bird or the fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. And that's a great comment. If this bird or fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way in this moment, practice occurs actualizing the fundamental point. For the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and is not merely arising now.

[79:10]

Accordingly, in the practice enlightenment of the Buddha way, meaning one thing is mastering it. Doing one practice is practicing completely. Okay, what do you mean to that? beginning seems to make less sense than the rest of it. The beginning makes much sense? Yeah. But why would a fish try to reach the end of its element? I don't know what that means. Is that the fish trying to get out of the water and leap into the air? Well, what if a human being wants to be a Buddha and being a Buddha is something different from being a human being? That makes sense. There's a sense that doesn't. What if I say once I... If I finally figure out this Zen business, I can start practicing. Well, that would be kind of victory.

[80:14]

Figuring it out is your Zen business. What did you say? Fish try. I said they'll be kind of human. Human, yeah. That's why he's giving us the analogy. So what is it to try to reach the end of your element? First of all, he says, hey, listen. You are your element. Your element is you. And then he says, and then, you know, people get this idea of reaching the end of their element. What's he's talking about? Well, you can do it because of the word before. If you're going to, like, maybe eventually you'll try to reach the end of your element, but not before you move in it. First you're going to move in it, then you can reach the end of your element. Before. More like a bird of a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it. That's the key thing. This bird of a fish will not bring its way in its place. Maybe my wine graph found this before moving in it. Yeah. There is a cup right here. I can move in it. Then I can reach the end of it.

[81:17]

What does it mean? Well, you want to reach the end of your element. It would be in taking the analogy of I'm practicing and practicing is enlightenment. Why would I ever want to reach the end of that? So it just goes on and on. I'd rather just be moving in all the time. I think the word, my own opinion, is the word for and... Well, it does create the implication you just said Here's Mazumi Roshi's translation. When a fish swims in the ocean, there's no limit to the water, no matter how far it swims. When the bird flies in the sky, there's no limit to the air, no matter how far it flies. However, no fish or bird has ever left its elements since the beginning.

[82:17]

When the need is large, it's used largely. When the need is small, it's used in a small way. Thus no creature ever comes short of its own completeness. Wherever it stands, it does not feel to cover the ground. If a bird leaves the air, it will die at once. If a fish leaves the water, it will die at once. Know then that water is life. Know that air is life. Life is the bird and life is the fish. Beyond this, There are further implications and ramifications. In this way, there are practice, enlightenment, morality, and mortality. Mortality and immortality. No. If the bird and the fish try to reach the limit of its element before moving in, same translation, before moving in, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place.

[83:20]

Okay. So what is before moving in it? Trying to be enlightened without practicing. Trying to be a master without practicing that discipline first. Yeah. A little bit like to study the ways to study the self. And then to study the self is to forget the self. Know your element. Know where you're at. Attaining this place, one's daily life is the realization of ultimate reality. Attaining the way, one's daily life is the realization. Attaining this way, one's life is the realization of ultimate reality. Attaining, excuse me, attaining this place, one's daily life is the realization.

[84:25]

Attaining this way, one's daily life is the realization of ultimate reality. Well, first of all, it says the place and way. He says, the place, the way are not carried over from the past, are not merely arising now. Accordingly, it is the practice enlightenment of Buddha way. When you find your way in this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. So what is it to find your way in this moment?

[85:28]

Be here now. Yeah. And then here you find your way. What is it to find your way? I think the whole passage is don't be focused on where as you leave the water to leave. Just be in that moment. And in that moment, then you will finally be ready. By being in the moment. By being where you are. The way arises with each step. Because you have to be present for each step.

[86:41]

Okay. Sounds like total heresy to me. Greg, what were you gonna say? What do you think, Greg? What's Suzuki Roshi always asking us to ask ourselves what's our deepest request? That's our can must request. What's our organic tendency? Yeah. Request. Request. What is your deepest request? Deep desire. Or as Dogenzenji says it, when you find your place where you are, practice occurs. Actualizing the fundamental part. When you find your way, at this moment, practice occurs. actualizing the fundamental point.

[87:49]

For the place, the way, is neither yours nor others, neither large nor small. Okay? Why do you think the particular place and way? Place means someone a little more deaf, and of course, way it's more important. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I understand it. The place, it's like, find yourself in this moment. Be totally here. And the way, the path, is the continuation of that. The expression of that. The next step. To be fully present for this, for here. And then to take from this full presence to take the next step. Actualize it expressively. Okay? That's it. Thank you very much. Thank you. That was quick.

[88:49]

That was only like 8 o'clock. Thank you. You're gonna start. Let's do a double session tonight. Come on.

[89:06]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_87.3