This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening, bodhisattvas. So... This evening, for quite a long time, I didn't know what to speak about. You know, there are so many different ways to give a Dharma talk. And I never know if I'm speaking about something that is actually...

[01:00]

appropriate for everyone in the room. And that's my goal, is to give a talk that actually meets the intention with which you came. And that intention has to do with, for most people, if I would ask, well, I just want to check out my guests. You don't have to look. You can close your eyes if you don't want anyone to see you. That's something I used to do when I was a kid. I don't think you can pretend that other people can't see you. But how many people came here tonight for a motivation that has something to do with waking up for the benefit of all beings? I hope. Okay, how many people came because you had to?

[02:06]

How many people came out of simple curiosity? Okay, so there are other motivations in the room. So I'm not sure. I'm never sure what to discuss. So I thought, Maybe since this is a time at Zen Center, David and I were talking in the residence lounge this morning. Actually, Jonathan was doing the crossword puzzle. Blanche hadn't come in yet to inquire about the funnies. And David was reading the news. And instead of asking David about the news, I said, what would be appropriate to speak to the Sangha about? And he pointed out that this is a time in the community when we're between practice periods.

[03:16]

A practice period for people who haven't done one is a usually between 7 and 12 week period of time when the schedule is a little bit more intense. And we work as a group to create a safe space for everyone to share a practice and a language. So it's a time of intimacy, frustration, intention, endeavor. It's where the rubber meets the road, etc. It's a time that you can really think, I'm going to do something now. And then you can... throw yourself at the schedule or follow the schedule and see what happens. And usually something does. And that's the beginning of it. And so we finished one of those practice periods a few weeks ago.

[04:17]

And the next one starts at the end of September. So this is a time which is, David said, there's no practice period. So then I was thinking, what is there? when there is no practice period. It's not that there's no schedule. There are periods of zazen that are offered to sit. There are requirements for people who live here and intentions for people who don't. There's all sorts of things happening in the community. But what is there uniquely at a time when there isn't a structured program? that's nominated to be an intense time. Well, there's our lives and the relationship of practice to our life. And I was thinking, what is a teaching that talks about the time that could be any time?

[05:24]

And I was thinking that... of all the teachings that might be appropriate for this time, the teaching of Sokushinzei Butsu, this very mind is Buddha, might be something to address. And what is, you know, people say Zen mind, or that Zen is about the mind. Or sometimes people say mind only. or beginner's mind, or expert's mind. And there are a couple of cases that we often think about in this tradition when we think about Buddha mind or about Zen mind. The one that comes to mind most easily sounds very simple. And this is in a book of...

[06:29]

koans. Koans are public cases, like in law. There are public cases that are used to demonstrate certain aspects of the law. So our new Supreme Court justices are in the world of making such benchmark cases or landmark cases that define the law in this country. Well, just like that, there were certain landmark teachers throughout the whole history of Zen. And their conversations with students, several of them got selected by later masters as benchmark or landmark cases that would demonstrate something about the tradition, about the teaching, about Buddha's way. This one is called Mind is Buddha. I'll use the Japanese names. Taibai, once asked Basso, what is Buddha?

[07:36]

Basso answered, mind is Buddha. Okay, so I'll say it again. Taibai once asked Basso, what is Buddha? Basso's response was, Okay, now, let's skip forward to the next monk who arrived. And where is this case? This is shortly after this first case. A monk once asked Basso, what is Buddha? Basso answered, no mind, no Buddha. Okay? So a monk once asked Basso, what is Buddha? And Basso answered, But wait!

[08:43]

What? Huh? This is the same guy, Basso. Or Matsu. And On Sunday, he's saying, mind is Buddha. And on Monday, he's saying, no mind, no Buddha. What's that about? Is it just some Zen thing? One of those Zen things, one of those inconceivable Zen things that one could never hope to understand or one could pretend to understand. What is that all about? What does that connect to? And why should we care? So at 7.05 this evening, I locked the door of the

[10:01]

yoga studio where I teach on Wednesday nights. And my class usually ends at 7.30. It's actually 7.35. And through a long series of misadventures, that's the only evening class spot that I could have. And it's been that way for a couple of years. I always race back and try to come to as much of lecture as I can. But when I'm giving lecture, the ante is raised. So I told people that I would give less time in the yoga class, and I gave everybody back $4 a piece, and everyone who would take it, some people wouldn't take it, thanks to those people. And then I waited while the last person changed clothes and went to the bathroom, and I locked the door. I got in the car to come back. And I got on the freeway because it's the fastest way to go.

[11:04]

And there was an enormous traffic jam that started blocks from the freeway entrance that I got in on. First there was an accident where a fire engine and an ambulance had right of way to get on the freeway. And then I was going from Monterey Boulevard and... The accident was before the very next, there was an accident before the very next exit. And so all I could see was a long line of red taillights. So I quickly got out at Cesar Chavez and a long row of red taillights waited for me. Okay, it's 7.12, 7.13, 7.14. So I'm zigzagging through the city streets and everywhere were other cars and other people wanting to go different places.

[12:09]

And I was thinking, oh, no, how embarrassing. What if I don't make it to lecture? Is that mine, Buddha? You know, the adrenaline and adrenaline is adrenaline. adrenalinized mind that's thinking, oh no, oh no, oh no, you know, oh no. Is that Mind Buddha? Not that I think there's an answer to that question. This week I was... I had an interaction with someone that was part of a conflict. Is that mind Buddha?

[13:14]

When Basso says, this very mind is Buddha, does he mean just normal mind? And if he does, does that mean I can do anything I want and that's Buddha? And if he doesn't mean that even those minds are Buddha, then what good is Buddhism and what good is sin? So this is a real question. It's not just some made-up question. And I don't know if you can identify with the heart and mind of traffic and trying to make it in time. Oh, and then I went up to my apartment and, you know, I was in a big SUV hit me as I was walking across the street in April.

[14:19]

So I've got a lot of dizziness and pain. So I was struggling with that to make it up the stairs. And I thought, oh, I better... why don't I wear my robes? I haven't been able to wear my robes because of balance issues, because I step on them and there's danger involved. And so I thought, why don't I wear my robes tonight? I can get help if I need to, if I feel uncertain about the balance. And I immediately put my hand through the wrong part of the sleeve, and I must have spent about three minutes trying to figure out where to put my hand in the sleeve of the robe. Is that mine, Buddha? There is something pure about trying to put one's hand in the sleeve of one's robe or negotiate one's way through a conversation that one doesn't know how to speak. There is something pure about that. You know, like if I were to say, hey, Lucy,

[15:24]

Yeah, so there's something pure about that. You know, there's something very pure about that. And in other koans, other koans are public cases about that mind. And yet, is it Buddha? Buddha's pretty awesome and up there. Is that Buddha? Buddha? So it's a real question. It's not just a made-up question. It's a real question that I actually have and that I actually practice with. And I think that one needs to practice with this kind of question to walk step-by-step on the path. One can't know everything. One can't... be too deeply invested in one's ideas and be in the world of practice.

[16:38]

So this very mind is Buddha doesn't mean that no matter what one says or does, it's Buddha. That's not what it means. You know... because we're ignorant. We're hardwired to be ignorant. We're built to be limited human beings. Our senses, some scientists once said that our senses, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin, and even mind, the cognitive function, that the main functions of the senses are to filter out information, to make the world small enough that we can handle it. Have you ever heard that? Do you know what I'm talking about? So I'm not talking about some psychological inability to cope with the world.

[17:44]

I'm talking about the everyday function of the senses is to limit what we experience to where it makes sense to us. And our ability to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, to touch, and to think and perceive are limited both by our past experience and by our present motivations. So for instance, let's say you were hungry. Let's say you were really, really hungry. What would you be perceiving? What would you be likely to be perceiving? You are very hungry. This is not a trick question. Yeah. Food. Or the absence thereof. Right? So your present motivation would very strongly orient your senses towards survival. And the same with past experience.

[18:46]

Let's say that... Let's say that in the past, let's say that you just had by accident stuck your hand in some very hot water and scalded it. What would the sense of touch be like for that hand? So experience, even physical experience changes it, but... psychological and emotional experience changes perceptions too. So for instance, if you grew up in a household in which it was very difficult to express anger and you carried around anger unknowingly, would people tend to look more beautiful or uglier to you? So these are just very basic

[19:51]

very basic ways in which our senses limit the world. And when we sit zazen, we don't shut out the world. And the function of zazen is to sit solidly in the middle of our experience. Our experience at that time settles and stabilizes and comes forth to us with new radiance. It's refreshed. When we get up from sitting, from really sitting a period of zazen, the world is new. So, When we say, this very mind is Buddha, it doesn't mean the ordinary karmic consciousness of ignorance or of just status quo or habit.

[21:09]

But what is underneath that? If we're a practitioner, we're practicing with that. We're present to it. And we're present... And then my question is, well, who is present to that limited experience? Who's present to it and who knows it for what it is? And guess who? But if you say Buddha, wash your mouth out with soap. Because if you say Buddha, the word Buddha has limited who you think that person is. Okay. So, Dogen Zenji, I highly recommend a fascicle of the Shobo Genzo called Sokushinze Butsu. Big words. Fascicle means a chapter. Shobo Genzo is the treasury of the true Dharma I, and it's a collection of writings and

[22:18]

transcribed talks that the founder of our school in Japan, Dogen Zenji, gave in the 1200s. And so he wrote about this very mind as Buddha. And he spends a large part of that chapter talking about the Sherenica heresy. Okay? Now, the Sherenica heresy is a, it says that there is someone who experiences all of the experience and that that person is eternal and radiant and receives everything that happens. and goes on from existence to existence, that that person shines with a great light.

[23:22]

And so in Buddhism, this is a heresy because it means that it's a fixed concept of self. And actually yogis, traditionally yogis and Hindus, the point of those religions is to become acquainted with the eternal self. And if you look closer at those practices, you'll find that the normal everyday self where we live is constantly changing and that there's another kind of eternal self that we can't see or feel because it's too big and inconceivable. that is the self or the soul, the Atman. And in Buddhist practice, there's the tradition of Anatman, the teaching of Anatman, no self.

[24:33]

And there isn't any fixed self. And we only talk about things that we can actually experience, like our delusion. And that everyday experience is not different from Buddha nature. Although if you try to locate Buddha nature in any part of experience by itself, you won't find it. Or if you find it, what you'll really be finding is just an idea of Buddha nature. Buddha nature is too big. So as I'm a yoga teacher who's ordained as a Zen priest, or rather a Zen priest who decided to teach yoga to help the Sangha, I face these contradictions all the time. So I can't be disparaging about the teachings of yoga or the teachings of Zen. But I am an ordained Zen priest, and I have a responsibility to transmit the tradition of no self.

[25:39]

And so this is a question I have to think about fairly often. Is there a self or isn't there a self? And what am I talking about in yoga? Am I talking about self or no self? And in Zen, am I talking about self or no self? And if I talk about one in one tradition and another in another tradition, isn't that hypocritical? Isn't it a lie? Are both traditions equally valid or does one have the truth? Anyway, these are questions. And I think I want to actually stop here so that there's time to continue this conversation about this very mind is Buddha, about self, and about the sensory world. So, what is Buddha? You know? I'll just leave you with that question. I don't think I answered it. So maybe you can.

[26:50]

If you want to, if this brings up anything for you, this conversation, the case, please bring it up. Yes. Right. So let's just be conventional here, okay? I just want to be conventional. So I don't want to give a trick answer like yes or, you know, a Zen shout or something like that. I don't want to do that. Actually, I just want to be conventional for a moment.

[27:50]

So what isn't Buddha... in the conventional world. Listen closely because I'm now about to shoot myself in the foot and make a fool out of myself. I'm now about to say that something is Buddha and something isn't Buddha. This is a mistake. And it's a mistake I willingly make. And it's also a mistake that one makes anytime one sits on the seat, on Buddha's seat, and gives a lecture about Buddha's teachings. whether it's in the Buddha Hall or whether it's in the Dokkasan or practice discussion room, anyone who takes those positions, in a sense, is making an idiot out of themselves because we're constantly falling and constantly getting up. We're constantly exiting and entering.

[28:53]

And to set ourselves up as teachers, every time I do that, to do that is to make a mistake. So I'm going to say that what is not Buddha is ignorance. Do you see how that's a mistake? is also kind of true it flips so what's not Buddha is harming people or things what's not Buddha is a lack of refuge taking you know like when something happens and you don't take refuge in something bigger but instead believe in your habits of perception, believe in the limited view, believe in the ugly machine that anger or fear might make.

[30:02]

That's not Buddha. So in a way, that's accurate. In the conventional world, that's accurate. I mean, look at the Buddha. Does the Buddha look like he's resting in the world of Upset? I don't think so. At the same time, that's only half the story, or maybe not even half the story. So the Buddha is someone who practiced for the benefit of all beings to wake up to the reality of our human life. So Buddha was a person. And... So what the Buddha shows is that everything is a gateway to awakening. There isn't one thing that isn't. Everything just as it is. That life is not killed.

[31:06]

And then, so what's the skill when you can say two equal and opposite things at the same time? Where's skill? What should one do in any situation? So I would say, can you hold both those points of view at the same time? Anyway, I hope that answers your point. I'm not going to call it a question. Second koan, you say, this is your response with no mind, no Buddha. In one sense, it sounds the same as the first one. Mind is Buddha.

[32:13]

No mind, no Buddha. Yeah, that's right. I wonder, is it, no, is it moving like without? Without mind, no Buddha? Or is it no, not mind? Well, I don't have the Chinese or Japanese in front of me, but there is someone who might know. Is it the word fu? Or is it, what is it? He. So basically really no, no mind, no Buddha, not mu mind, mu Buddha. No mind. No Buddha. So no. No mind. No Buddha.

[33:16]

No Buddha. Okay? So it really is no. Like, uh-uh. There's a poem in this case that I love. So if I can find this poem, I'll read it to you. It's actually in the... I don't know if it's in this. Oh, yeah. This is in the case, this very mind is Buddha, but it might as well be a poem. It could easily be a poem in the other case of no mind, no Buddha also. And this is... An old Zen master made the following poem as his answer to Mind is Buddha. In winter, I long for warmth. Or actually in San Francisco. In summer, I long for warmth.

[34:17]

In rain, I look for a fine day. Spring enraptures people with her beautiful moonlight. Repeatedly, she calls out... O shogyoku, O shogyoku, it is for no other purpose than that her lover may recognize her voice. Okay? So, in San Francisco summer, I long for warmth. In rain, I look for a fine day. This very mind is Buddha. And the second half of the poem is kind of a play or an enactment of this very mind is Buddha. And so it's about a woman who has a maid called Shogyoku, I think.

[35:24]

Or that's how I picture it, that the woman is in her boudoir. And she's continually calling... to the maid, shogyoku, shogyoku. And not that she needs anything, but that her lover, who's someplace outside, will actually hear her. So it's a feeling for this very mindless Buddha that everything that comes up is just someone calling to the maid so that Buddha can arise. Okay? But what are you talking about? There's no Buddha there. There's just someone calling to the maid. You know? That's just calling is calling. Calling isn't Buddha.

[36:26]

So that's no. Okay? And because of no... we can call to the maid. Does that make sense? It's a weird logic. It's kind of Buddhist logic, and you're responsible for it now that you're ordained. Okay, I think we have time for one more comment or question, particularly if anybody has any idea or example or understanding from real life. or someplace where this absolutely wouldn't apply to real life. Yes? Well, Nagarjuna is real life. I was speaking in relation to those two koans, just that line, believers in emptiness are incurable. Just that way that, like those two as a pair, they're just like...

[37:29]

its own checks and balances. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking it's exactly like do you remember the story in which Kanadaiba is seeing the portraits of the ancestors and when he sees Nagarjuna he sees a round full moon. Do you remember that story? Isn't that beautiful? Like that he sees the painting of Nagarjuna and what he sees is the round full moon. You know, he doesn't see like a bald head and robes and stuff. He sees the round full moon. But I think the next time he went back, he saw Nagarjuna. So thank you very much for your attention.

[38:32]

I am sorry if my representation of the Buddha Dharma hasn't awoken you this evening. And I really appreciate and feel so happy to be practicing with each person in this room. Thank you. See you in church. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[39:33]

May we fully enjoy the Dorma.

[39:36]

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