This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Nice to see you all again this morning. This morning I want to talk again about our intensive topic. the text we're looking at during the intensive Dōgen's Zuimanki, which is a collection of Dōgen's words of advice given to the monastics who were practicing with him when he was first beginning to establish practice places in Japan. And since at that time Zen was fairly new to Japan, Dōgen was at pains to be very clear with his students about the spirit and attitude of the practice.

[01:04]

And how the way that he was practicing differed from the Buddhist ways that they had been previously used to. So, Zvimanki is a very informal text. In it, Dogen is not offering formal Dharma words or specific instructions about sutras or meditation. He's gently trying to explain and to model for his listeners the way he believes that people ought to see practice and live it. And the text is divided into six books. Each book has a number of fairly small sections, 10, 15, 20 or more sections. So I'm going to read and comment on the first section of book four. And for those of you who are in the intensive, you'll notice that I'm using a slightly updated translation, a little bit different from the one that you might be looking at.

[02:09]

This is the first section of Book 4. Students of the Way, we should not cling to our personal views. Even when we have some understanding, We should still think that there might be something not right with our views, or that there might be insights that are superior to ours. We should visit widely with a variety of teachers, and we should investigate our predecessors' words. Furthermore, we should not firmly adhere even to the sayings of our predecessors. We should consider that their words might be mistaken. Or even if we believe them, if there is a superior understanding, we should gradually develop our own understanding. Long ago, a certain imperial attendant monk visited the assembly of national teacher Zhang, and the national teacher asked this monk, what color are the grasses in the south

[03:26]

The monk said, yellow. He asked a boy who happened to be there, and the boy said the same thing, yellow. Then the national teacher said to the attendant monk, your view is no better than this boy's. You said yellow. He said yellow. So you and this boy have the same view. So if so... The boy could be the emperor's teacher and answer with the true color. Your view is not any better than the ordinary view. Years later, someone commented, What's wrong with the fact that the attendant monk's view is not beyond the ordinary? He said the true color. So did the boy. So the attendant monk must be the true teacher. And in saying this, he did not accept the national teacher's view.

[04:31]

This is still Dogen talking. So from this, we should understand that just as this person did not accept the ancient's opinion, we too should simply understand the true reality, rather than just accepting the view of an authority. Even though a doubtful mind is bad, it is also bad to cling to something we should not believe and to not investigate what should be investigated. So that is the entirety of that first section in chapter 4. So this is something to think about carefully. When Dogen says we should not cling to our personal views, he doesn't mean only our opinions. He means our whole way of viewing ourselves, our lives, our world.

[05:36]

I often tell the story about my father who never went to college and never read any books. And he was very happy. to send me to college, I was the first person ever in my family to go to higher education. And it was a very big deal. And I was excited about it. Sorry. And when I was in college, I read a lot of books. I met a lot of professors and learned fascinating things. And I had many opinions that my father thought were completely ridiculous. And I would argue with him. And I would think that he was pretty ignorant. But at the same time, I secretly believed that maybe all my great opinions were just confusion. What did I really know after all? And my mind was just jumbled up with various half-baked ideas that I got from books.

[06:40]

And I thought, you know, probably my father is better off. because he doesn't have all these abstract ideas in his mind. He just has an ordinary, normal, natural point of view. But still later, I realized, oh wait, my father's point of view is not natural. He is also conditioned by his whole life. Maybe he hasn't read any books. But he's just as much a philosopher as I am. And his view is just as distorted and half-baked as mine is, even though he has not been warped by books and professors. And it's true. We are all, according to the Buddha, deeply distorted in our view of self and other

[07:47]

and world by our ancient twisted karma. Because we've all had parents. We're all brought up in a world populated by others. So we are all deeply, deeply conditioned. And if there is a natural, ordinary view, it is a deeply incorrect view. We don't know who we are. and what others and the world really are. So then you might think, well, okay, let's get straightened out here. Let's get the right view. Let's get the Buddhist view. And sometimes it may well look like Dogen is advocating for this, but Dogen's teaching which he thinks is not unique or special to him, he thinks his teaching is just basic Buddha Dharma, it's a little different from that.

[08:57]

Because he's telling us not that we need the correct view, but that we need to understand what a view is and how to hold our views. Because if we have a correct view, and cling to that view, then it's not a correct view. And even if we have an incorrect view, and we hold that view with open hands and a warm heart, then an incorrect view is a correct view. So in other words, it's not a matter of having the right understanding. It's a matter of living with a fully open heart, willing to meet every moment with kindness and curiosity. And yes, of course, being the person that we are. Holding whatever view we hold and expressing it to the best of our ability.

[10:02]

So in the lengthy passage that I quoted, Dogen is saying, whatever your view is, don't cling to it. Remember, there might be another view, a better view. This is just like Suzuki Roshi's beginner's mind, isn't it? Don't be an expert. Be a beginner. Don't think you know. Don't even think you know who you are. Don't be so sure about who you are. Maybe you're mistaken. Don't be an expert. on who you are. Don't cling to your self description. Maybe somebody else has a better view of who you are. And that's why we hang around sanghas and teachers and read sacred texts like Zwiwonki. Because when we do that, we are living in the midst of other views.

[11:11]

We are experiencing other views, other ways of seeing the world and ourselves that maybe we never thought of before. Now, of course, when we do that, initially, we're going to interpret everything that we see and hear through the lens of our conditioning, through the lens of our already existing habitual view. But, and I'm sure all of you could attest to this, every now and then, you notice, oh, wait a minute. I know the way I see it, but I'm getting the feeling here that maybe not. Maybe the way that I'm used to seeing things is not quite right. I'm getting that feeling. And it makes us a little bit doubt

[12:13]

our view. And then our view changes a little bit. Which is a good thing, right? It's a very good thing to change our view. Because, in fact, we are changing. All the time. And it's a good thing if our minds and hearts change along with our reality. It's a good thing if we don't get so stuck in a way of seeing things that we are prevented from growing, from opening up. So Dogen says we should go around studying with other teachers and experiencing other views. So as you know, Dogen is a firm traditionalist. He thinks we ought to honor the words of the ancients and always accept them and take them to heart.

[13:20]

This is a beautiful attitude, which is almost the opposite of the critical attitude that we all learn in school, especially in higher education. Dogen thinks we should not have a critical attitude. we should accept the words of the ancients as truth, not question it. And that's the best way to read sacred text and to read Zwing Moki as if it were absolutely the truth. And if we find we don't agree with it, rather than thinking, I don't agree with this, or maybe thinking, well, you know, he's writing in another time, in another place, he's talking to monastics, this doesn't really apply to me. Rather than thinking like that, we ought to think, no, if I don't agree, or I don't see it that way, maybe I should think again.

[14:35]

Maybe I'm not yet understanding what Dogen is saying. And maybe I ought to try to understand differently what he's saying. So this is Dogen's basic attitude toward the Dharma, I think. And yet here he says, and he often says this, we should not firmly adhere even to the sayings of our predecessors. We should consider that their words might be mistaken. Or even if we believe them, maybe there's a superior understanding and we should develop our own understanding. And he says, as he says so often, investigate this. By this he means, not with our critical thinking, not that that's this allowed, but he doesn't mean investigate it with our critical thinking.

[15:45]

He means, ponder this with your breath, with your whole body, with your whole mind and heart, until we are clear. And then we should become unclear and investigate further. In other words, even when it comes to a sacred text that we believe and take to be true, even then, we should not cling to what the text seems to say how we seem to understand it, we should think, well, maybe that's not right. In my own case, I really feel like the Dharma view is correct. I've studied it a lot, and I've thought about it a lot, and I've considered it in the context of my daily living and tested it out, and it just seems right to me. And yet, maybe not.

[16:50]

You never know. Like Suzuki Roshi says, maybe so. But not always so. Maybe there's a better way to look at things. I always try to keep that an open possibility. Because that's the only way that I could learn and that I could grow. That's the only way that I will come to a deeper understanding of Dharma. Because how do I know whether what I take to be the Dharma view actually is the Dharma view? Maybe I'm entirely wrong. In fact, I know I'm entirely wrong because I've discovered just that many, many, many times in the past. So how could I be sure now? And yet, of course, I am sure. I'm sure and I'm doubtful at the same time.

[17:57]

As he says, we will all develop our own unique understanding, little by little. And this is how we'll do that, by being sure and doubtful at the same time. In other words, not willfully, not in a self-centered way. You know, this is my view. This is my understanding. This is my brand. This is my Buddhism. Not like that. But in an open and inquisitive way, I am going to, little by little, influenced by Sangha and teachers and Dharma and everything that happens in my life, become who I am. The person no one else could ever be in all the world. And this is what Dogen is hoping for each and every one of us, that we each become a unique expression of the Buddha way by letting go of our cherished ideas of self and world and others, and even of Buddha Dharma.

[19:13]

So to illustrate this point, Dogen tells the story that I shared with you earlier. I'm not sure that the point of the story is entirely clear. More or less, as you heard, National Teacher Zhang is asking, probably a very impressive, maybe a bit stuck up, I don't know, monk who comes to him. He says, what color are the grasses of the South? You know, you can imagine. This is a Zen question. Not an ordinary question. Yellow, he says. Then the teacher asks a young boy attendant who happened to be in the room the same question. And the boy probably doesn't think that it's his end question. He probably thinks he's just asking him, you know, what's the color of the grasses? And he says yellow. Because I guess the grass is in the south.

[20:19]

really are yellow, just like the grasses around here where I live in the summer and the fall, a beautiful golden yellow. And so the national teacher turns to the monk and says, well, Mr. Impressive Monk, maybe you're not so impressive. This young innocent boy gives the same answer. Maybe he's the impressive Dharma teacher, not you. Is there a difference between one person's saying yellow and another person's saying yellow? Is one of them giving a profound Zen teaching and the other is just telling you what color the grasses are? You see that a lot in Zen stories. Two people say the same thing.

[21:20]

One is right and the other is absolutely wrong. So is this like Zen trickery? Zen joke? Or really is it that one person is speaking with power and freedom and depth? And you could see that if you were there. And the other is just giving an habitual stuck view. even though they seem on the surface to be saying the same thing? And do you have the eye to tell which is which? And how would you tell? And is there really any difference, actually, between the two? So in the story, the national teacher seems to be puncturing the pride of this impressive monk.

[22:21]

saying to him, you know, even an ordinary little boy gives the same answer you give. But is that what the national teacher really means? Later, as Dogen quotes, someone else comes along and says, no, that's not right. This impressive monk really is an impressive monk. He really is a great teacher. His answer shows that. Does this mean that the boy is foolish? Or maybe the boy is also a great teacher. So what's the right answer here? What's the right view? Dogen says, don't just study the sayings of the ancients and think you understand them and then believe in that understanding as their view. Continually investigate. always be willing to understand more deeply.

[23:23]

And this is true of all Zen stories and all true teachings of Buddhadharma. You will always understand them as you understand them. And as you continue to practice later on, you will understand them differently. A Zen story, a phrase from a sutra, could illuminate you for an entire lifetime. So be open always to the truth, but know that whatever you know of it now, however sure of it you may be, is provisional. Because practice and understanding are not destinations. They are roads we travel as long as we live. And then maybe beyond that. In the next passage, which I will quote for you in a moment, Dogen goes into this very, very important issue further.

[24:31]

He points out that clinging or not clinging to views is more than an intellectual matter. It's not a mental trick. It's not just gaining the ability to master Zen rhetoric. which I think a clever enough person could do. No. It's not a matter only of mind, but also of body and heart. It's a matter of deeply knowing what we are on all levels of art being human. It's not a mere matter of giving the right answer. and avoiding the wrong answer. As the story we were just talking about shows, the same answer is the right answer, and the wrong answer, and the right wrong answer. So here's Dogen now in the next passage.

[25:39]

The primary concern for students of the way must be, first of all, to detach from personal views. Then he says, to detach from personal views is to not cling to our body. Even if we penetrate the sayings and stories of the ancients and are able to sit unceasingly like iron or like a rock, If we attach to our bodies without letting go, we will not be able to attain the way of the Buddhas and ancestors, even if we practice for 10,000 eons or thousands of lifetimes. It goes without saying that even if we are able to understand the provisional or genuine teachings or the sacred teachings of the esoteric or exoteric scriptures, but we are not free from the mind of

[26:44]

that clings to our bodies, we vainly calculate others' wealth without owning even a half penny of our own. So this may be a little bit misleading because of the difference in the idea of the body that we have in our culture and in Japanese culture. In our culture, the body is distinct from the mind. That's what the body is. It's not the mind. In Japanese culture, the distinction is not so hard and fast. So when Dogen says the body, I don't think he means the body per se only. He means the whole self. Because identification of self with body is so obvious. I mean, who thinks about it? We don't even think about it. It's so obvious. It's one of the basic building blocks of human psychology. Even if we're someone who's entirely cerebral, could care less about the body, doesn't even want to eat lunch, you know.

[27:54]

Even so, we're all attached to the body as ourself. The body is us. Who else are we if not our body? Even if we don't believe that, right? We operate that way. And most of us try to protect our body. We try to get it so that it's as presentable to others as possible. And we protect ourselves, and we try to make ourselves as presentable in the world as possible. But even if we ignore our body, we are this body, not the other guy's body. We live as if self and body is somehow a real entity. It's us. It's ourself. But this is not at all the case. There is no body.

[28:58]

There is no me or you. It's just the unfolding process of living and dying. Constant change. that we bear witness to through the ongoing experiences of body and mind in this lifetime. And that is why Zazen is so central and so clear in the center of all of Dogen's teaching. Not because Zazen calms the body and is an avenue for insight into Dharma ideas. But to sit in zazen is to experience, moment by moment, what we actually are. And in the next little part, Dogen explains this very clearly.

[30:05]

I only ask you, Dharma students, to sit quietly and investigate the beginning and end of this body from the basis of reality. Our body, hair and skin, were originally comprised of the two droplets from our father and mother. That's 12th century Japanese biology. When our breath stops, they will disperse and finally turn into mud and soil on the mountains and fields. How can we cling to our bodies? Furthermore, when we see from the basis of the Dharma, we are nothing but the gathering and dispersing of the 18 elements, which one can we identify as ourselves?

[31:09]

Although there are differences between the teaching schools and the Zen school, which is outside the teaching, they both show the ungraspability of the self from the beginning to the end and make this truth the basic attitude toward practicing the way. On this point, both are the same. First of all, we must penetrate this truth. Then the Buddha way will become truly clear. So isn't this what we're doing when we're sitting Zazen? We try to keep our attention focused here, sitting, on the feeling of sitting silently, breathing, the feeling of being alive. And when we do that, we are experiencing the truth that Dogen is speaking of here.

[32:13]

Maybe we don't describe it to ourselves in the classical Buddhist way, using classical Buddhist conceptions as he does. But whether we do or not, or whatever we think about it, that's what we're experiencing when we're sitting in Zazen. We are sitting quietly, investigating the beginning and the end of the body. We are experiencing the body-mind as a process of constant flux, a constant ungraspable coming and going. There is nothing to hold on to in our Zazian practice. Even if we're lucky people and we have a shining moment of Samyak Samdhodi, supreme enlightenment, It is ungraspable.

[33:15]

It comes and goes like any other experience. Sperm and egg come together in one teensy little microsecond of time and then ensues many moments. a few cells and more cells and more cells and then an embryo and then an infant and then a child and then an adult and then a young and then a middle and then an old. And then the physical elements that have made all this possible, that have grown and lived and changed and developed and lived and died a million times, flow on. In their separate ways. And we become a cloud. An ocean.

[34:16]

A tree. Nothing appeared. Nothing disappeared. Not reality. Flows on. You can't hold on to a single thought. You can't hold on to a single experience. You can't hold on to your fingernail. And sitting is literally steeping ourselves in this truth the way you'd steep tea. Until little by little we have the flavor of it. And we really know it. And we won't be able to help ourselves but to live by it. So the previous week in our intensive, we've been talking about ethical conduct and bodhisattva vows and living with others.

[35:23]

As Dogen discusses all these things in Swinlong Ki. But always, always, behind Dogen's words, is this constant appreciation of the powerful reality of impermanence and absorbs it as the simple practice that shows us the truth of what we are. So, thank all of you very much for coming and listening to my talk. I really appreciate your attention. It's a tremendous gift that I do not take for granted. And I'm also enormously grateful to the San Francisco Zen Center, my Dharma Home Temple, for all the great things that it always does to make Dharma available to me and you and everybody else.

[36:28]

So I see the Abbot. David over there in the corner. Thank you, David, and everybody else at Zen Center. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[37:03]

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