I am proud to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Well, good evening everybody. I already apologized to the Green Gulf residents, but I want to repeat that to the other people who are joining the class tonight. I made a mistake in scheduling myself, and I don't quite know what happened there, but somehow I didn't realize that I was giving a class until someone just mentioned it to me the other day that it was written down that I'm giving a class. Now I can't give the class because other things got scheduled, so I apologize. I was going to cancel the class altogether, but I thought, well, I can give three classes, so I'm going to give three classes.

[01:04]

Everybody who wants to come to one class or two classes or three classes, please come. Anybody who registered for the class and paid for it, go to the office and get your money back, because I'm really sorry that I just made a mistake. So what I can do is I can give a class tonight, I can give another class on Thursday night, and I can give another class next Tuesday. But after that, unless I can buy locate, I can't do it. Try. Try. I can hardly unilocate. So I wish I could remember how this all came about, but I just can't remember how. Scheduling is my hardest, biggest problem. So, anyway, did someone pass on... apparently copies of this text were passed out.

[02:15]

Yes? Everybody has one? So we'll just sort of start. Now, about Thursday night, do people want to come... anybody want to come Thursday night? Okay, so we'll have a class Thursday night and then next Tuesday. And so this, you know, this is the book that everybody, the whole Buddhist world is thrilled and excited about this book, Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, a new translation by Bhikkhu Jnanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. And it's very good, very sound scholarship and translated by two practitioners in the contemporary idiom. There's a translation that's been around for a long time, which is good, but it just isn't quite as good. So it's wonderful to have this. And I had various... so there's a lot of suttas in here.

[03:23]

And one nice thing about this book, actually, is that... and I would recommend that anybody who is interested buy the book. It probably costs a lot of money, but... Not too bad. How much does it cost? Maybe $50? $70. How much it costs, yeah. That's a lot, but it's actually worth it. Because it's one of those books that probably won't go out of style too fast. It's 1400 pages. Yeah. Anyway, one nice thing about it is that it gives a summary in the beginning of all the suttas in the book, which is nice, so you can sort of peruse it nicely. And I asked various friends and associates and experts for recommendations, what they thought I should choose. And I had my own ideas, and lots of different ideas. But I decided that for tonight, and I don't know how fast we'll be able to go.

[04:27]

We're not in any hurry, so it may very well take us the three classes to just discuss the Maha Asapura Sutta. The greater discourse at Asapura. And usually, when I give a class, I feel that it's my duty to discuss the text and give a little historical background and all this stuff. But I'm not going to do that this time, because... Just dispense with that. Start reading the text. So what I'm thinking of doing is my usual practice. I'll just sort of read along a little bit and make a few comments, and then after that, discussion. And then if we run out of things to discuss, we'll read another little part, and I'll make a few comments. And here we'll have discussion until the time runs out. So, this is an interesting sutta, actually, because there are a number of suttas like this, which give the entire course of the whole thing.

[05:41]

This is the ABCs of Buddhist teaching. This is the beginning, and this is the whole thing, from beginning to end. And there's a number of suttas, as I say, that do this, and interestingly enough, the ABCs in the whole course is often somewhat different. There's a lot of things that are recycled through and that are the same, but sometimes there's a lot of little variations. So this is one version of the ABCs, from the beginning to the end. And so, everything from beginning with moral practices, through trance meditation, through liberation and insight, insight and liberation. And this was a talk given at this place, Asapura. Blessed have I heard, on one occasion, the Blessed One was living in the Angan country, at a town of the Angans, named Asapura.

[06:43]

And I always point out, you know, this is a typical beginning. Almost every sutta says, Blessed have I heard, of course, Ananda speaking, and then the Buddha was here, living here, doing the satsang. And I always like to point out that the Buddha did live always near towns, typically a little distance from the town, a big field, you know, camping out there. And coming into town on the alms round, in association with ordinary people, giving teachings, giving audiences and teachings to the rulers of the town, and also ordinary people, and having various encounters and so on. The Buddha didn't go far away. There would be retreats, but basically that was his lifestyle, and the lifestyle of the people who traveled with him. And there were also different bands of Buddha's followers. They weren't all with Buddha all the time. There were other people, bands here and there, and that's how they all lived.

[07:48]

So there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus. So this time it would appear that he was not giving a discourse to the people from the town, or to the king, local king, or whatever. This was just the gang, you know, the monks that were traveling with him. He was giving a talk to them. And that's a very important point, because the Buddha taught always appropriately, and so something that he would teach to the monks, he would not necessarily teach in the same way to the other people that he was speaking with. And of course, then for us, this is an interesting question, because we're not monks, so is this relevant to us at all? And I think that in our style of Buddhism, in the Western style of Buddhism, it's a very odd thing, you know, in the Buddhist world, actually.

[08:58]

It's a new approach, because basically almost everybody in the West who's interested in Buddhism and practices Buddhism is basically practicing as a monk. That's the kind of practice that people are doing, because meditation is for monks, and the cultivation of insight and liberation is for monks. In the Buddhist time, he would not have, in general, thought that ordinary people were going to do that. So when he was teaching the monks, that was the proposition. So actually, in a way, it's appropriate for us to, even though we have many differences from these monks, I would say that we have to think of this as being addressed to us, even though we're not exactly monks. Also, and this is another thing that I often try to speak about, and I'm going to try to speak about it in a very brief way, that is, you know, this sutta, and all the suttas in this book, come from the Pali Canon,

[10:05]

which is the canon most passed on by the Theravada school of Buddhism. And we're not followers of the Theravada school of Buddhism. And since these suttas, there have been many, many different turnings of the wheel of the Dharma, which, like in the Mahayana sutras, you'll read many things which confute a lot of the things that it says in these suttas. And in Zen also, many of the things that it says in these suttas seem to be confuted, it seems to be the opposite of the Zen understanding in many ways. And even in the Mahayana suttas, there seems to be even a derogatory attitude toward some of the heroes of these suttas, are treated in a comic way, you know, actually, in the Mahayana suttas, which is a source of embarrassment, actually, when you read them.

[11:06]

You get embarrassed to think that they can be so nasty, to talk about these nice fellows that way. So, which is all to say that... So, as time goes by, you know, and we understand and think about these things, I think we now are, all of us together, you know, coming to the place where we recognize the strength and validity of these early texts. And we take them as the teachings of the Buddha, I think, and understand them that way. We also understand that there have been various other views of these texts through the generations, and we honor those views as well. So, when we look at these texts, sometimes we might see something in them that seems like really, oh, objectionable, narrow-minded, fundamentalist, etc., etc. And then we need to stop and, you know, think about that, sort of understand the sutra from a more broad perspective. But that's easy to do. And sometimes when I read them, I don't even notice the objectionable things.

[12:08]

I think in this sutra, there's one line that's incredibly sexist and embarrassing, you know, for that reason. But other than that, I didn't really notice anything in this particular sutra. But I'm sure there's a million things that are there, and you'll find every one of them, I'm sure. So, we know that that will happen, and we're not worried. We'll just go along and talk about that when it comes up. So, those are some general comments about the sutra. So, then, there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus, Bhikkhus, venerable sir, they replied. And the Blessed One said thus. And then the rest of the sutra, basically the Buddha launches into this dharma talk. And again, I always like to say, usually the sutras also start out like this. The Buddha said, bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus say, yes.

[13:10]

And then the Buddha talks. And I often say that if this were a Zen text, it would end there. And there are actually several Zen koans that exactly say that. Exactly that's what they say. Monk, yes, end of koan. No, really, and it comes from... Yeah, and it comes from this text. Because the truth of the matter is, when you think about it, that that is all you need. If the Buddha is giving a teaching, and you are there, and the Buddha says, monks, and you say, yes, what else do we need to do? And plus, it points out the amazing nature of consciousness itself, that even though any one of us is no one and everyone,

[14:13]

the amazing thing is that when someone calls our name, we say, yes. Why is that? I mean, it's amazing. And there's a deep teaching in that. And this sort of teaching, like that, is very much emphasized in the Zen school. So that's why the Zen school would be the one that would lop off the whole rest of the sutra with all the things that it's talking about, and just emphasize the side of, yes, I'm here. I am a person with an identity, even though that identity is totally provisional. I stand up in the middle of the world and say, here I am. So, that's what I also always say. So now that I got through the things that I always say, let's get into the sutra. So, then it says, Recluses, Recluses, Bhikkhus. That is how people perceive you. And when you are asked, what are you? You claim that you are Recluses.

[15:17]

Since that is what you are designated and what you claim to be, you should train thus. We will undertake and practice those things that make one a Recluse and make one a Brahmin, so that our designations may be true and our claims genuine, and so that the services of those whose robes, alms food, resting place and medicinal requisites we use shall bring them great fruit and benefit, and so that our going forth shall not be in vain, but fruitful and fertile. So, that's what the Buddha says. That's the attitude that you should undertake. And I feel that too, you know, like in our little temple here, you feel that way. You feel, in other words, people, we are supported by the world at large. Oh, a deer walking by. Yeah. Eating plums, oh yeah, plum season. You know, you are supported by the world at large to continue your practice,

[16:27]

so in a way, you have to be worthy of that. And we say that, you know, when we eat our meals, this food, may our practice be worthy of this food, these offerings. So, in other words, you are supposed to be monks, you are supposed to be recluses, this is your sort of social identity, this is how people recognize you, this is the way people think of you, this is how you think of yourselves. That being the case, you really better tend to doing what recluses are supposed to do and do it right, you know, because people are supporting you to do it and you really have to be worthy of that. And, of course, you can imagine that now he is about to say what it is, you know, that you should be doing, and that's what the rest of the sutra is about. But I thought about this use of the word recluses, you know, very interesting, you know. I sort of sat around for some time cogitating this word, and it's one thing, the word in Pali is samana,

[17:28]

or shamana in Sanskrit, and it does mean wander or recluse. And, of course, I often imagine, I think, you know, in ancient times, before the Buddhist time, it was an old tradition in India, as I'm sure many of you know, that people would, at a certain point in their lives, if they were interested in doing so, they would become recluses, they would become samanas, they would give up all their possessions. Typically it would be after they raised their families. And we have, in modern times, it often happens exactly the same way. After people raise their families, they decide that they want to devote themselves to practice, and they give up their profession or whatever, and they devote themselves to spiritual life. So that was happening before the Buddhist time, and I think that the Buddha was a little bit unusual in encouraging people to take this step, even before they had raised families and established a household and so on,

[18:31]

so that the Buddha often would ordain people at an early age, and that tradition continued through the generations of Buddhism. So the recluses are homeless people, in a way, you know. So when I see homeless people, I think these are... It's interesting, you know, to us, homeless people are pathetic, in some psychological way scary, because what if we were homeless? We think, what if I was homeless? Buddha encourages people to be homeless, right? They're supposed to be homeless. Of course, the big difference is that these homeless people are homeless voluntarily, dedicated to seeking the truth of existence, and that's why they're homeless. So there's all of that, you know, background, historical background. But then I thought, why recluses? So I looked up the word in the dictionary and thought about recluse, and the word in the dictionary, it's interesting. It says, it's from the Latin word, re, meaning like again, repeat and so on, re,

[19:38]

re, cludere, and cludere means to close. So what would it mean to reclose? It means to reclose something. So the dictionary says, this is interesting, to close off, to enclose, or to open. Isn't that odd? So it's like, in other words, what I get out of it is, so something is being closed, shut down, but closed for the purpose of opening. Closing again, as if, this is my kind of illusory way of thinking anyway, as if life itself were already, the natural condition of us in our state of confusion is to be closed. In order to open, we need to reclose. In other words, we need to, do you understand, we need to like put a little container

[20:41]

and enclose ourselves within a little container so that we can open. So because we're closed, we need to, so that's anyway, that's my way of thinking about it. Because otherwise, it's an odd, it's a very odd word, isn't it? And then, then I thought, what about, that's recluse, what about the same word would be include, right? Recluse and include sound like the opposite, you know. So I looked up include. Include is the same word, it's I-N plus cloudare, and include means to shut in, to put in a category. So it's odd, you know, because in other words, these things are the opposite of what we automatically expect. So we want to include things, but actually to include things, in a way, you see, is to shut out things. Because that's what we do when we include something,

[21:43]

we take it in and we put it in something, include it. To recluse, to reclude something instead of include it, is to close it a second time in order to open it, so that it's free. And that's the whole point of the recluses, is that they're free. They leave society. The people that he's addressing here are people who, this is the point, that they have left their social roles. They have left their name and address. And the way that they fit into society, they said, I am now stepping outside of society. So recluses are actually people who have, in an outer and inner way, stepped out of society. And these are the people that he's addressing. And the idea being that it is necessary, the Buddha felt in these times, it is necessary to step out of society in order to become free. You have to become a recluse, closing a second time

[22:46]

in order to be free and liberated. So I think that, myself, I really feel that this is also true for us, and maybe for many of us in a different way, that we also, as I spoke the other night here about renunciation, that we also, as we really deeply make contact with our practice, in some way we actually step out of society in some really fundamental way. Even if we may be involved in society, we are, if our practice is really the most fundamental point of our lives, even though we might be involved in some social role, we don't actually identify with that role, we don't take that role as our life. It may be expedient means. And for these people, of course, their social role, oddly, was the social role of someone who doesn't have a social role.

[23:46]

But of course that was a social role, because there was a whole place in society for recluses. In our society, recluses are homeless people who are standing on the street, asking for money, and causing us this horrible confusion about how we're supposed to think of them, and what we're supposed to do about them. So it's a very odd situation, in that we may be recluses in a way, although we are living quite ordinary lives in society. And of course some people do give up social roles as well. But the point of being a recluse is to step out of society. This was one of the main points that Thomas Merton always made about being a monk. That was his idea of what a monk was. A monk was someone who stepped out of society. And therefore, as a person who was outside of society and possessed nothing, and had no stake in society, could be a prophet.

[24:47]

In other words, had a place to stand from which to criticize, or be a moral conscience for society, and so on. I think that there's a lot of truth to that as well. And certainly Buddha, I think, saw himself that way. I mean, a prophetic style in Buddhism is quite different from a Judeo-Christian prophetic style. But Buddha was in a much more, I would say, perspicacious, calm, skillful way, trying to get people a little bit this way toward peace, a little bit that way toward liberation, a little bit that way toward justice, you know, like that. Whereas in our Western tradition, the prophetic voice is much more strident and complaining, shrieking and yelling and raining down. Fire and brimstone on people, which perhaps they need.

[25:47]

I don't know. But anyway. So, recluses do that so that they can become liberated. And the rest of the sutra is now the things that recluses ought to be doing from A to Z, in order to effect that liberation. And what bhikkhus are the things that make one a recluse, that make one a brahman. And brahman just means like, as you know, the brahmans were a caste, a class of people who were the priests, and also the sort of the cream of the society. So he's using it in a kind of generic way, meaning a noble one, a leader of people. So it's an odd thing, because it's the opposite of recluse. You know, in a way. And what bhikkhus are the things that make one a recluse, that make one a brahman. Bhikkhus, you should train thus.

[26:48]

We will be possessed of shame and fear of wrongdoing. That's what you should do. That's the first thing. So you kind of go in an order here. The first thing that you need is to have shame and fear of wrongdoing, which seems like, oh, you know, who wants to have that? I want to get away from feeling guilty about everything, and worried about all the things I do. How could the path to freedom begin with having a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing? It's really odd, isn't it? No, I have a definition that I can read a little quickly. Shame has the characteristic of disgust with evil, is dominated by a sense of self-respect and manifests in self-discontent. Fear of wrongdoing is the characteristic of dread of evil, is dominated by concern for others and opinions of others, and manifests in self-disfear of doing evil. Right. That's from the footnote. So yeah, the first one has to do with an internal feeling, a conscience,

[27:55]

feeling badly within oneself for doing things that are not good to do. And the other one is not wanting to think that others notice that you're doing things that aren't good and disapprove of you. And these two qualities are called in Buddhism the guardians of the world. Because when you think about it, I mean, it makes sense. If you don't care, if you have no interest whatsoever in your conduct, whether it's positive or negative, wholesome or unwholesome, and you really don't basically give a damn what happens or what you do or anybody else does, this is not a good basis on which, why would you, what are you going to do now? Why would you do anything? So you actually have to have a healthy interest in doing good or doing right or becoming liberated or whatever. You need to actually feel that it matters to you how you live.

[28:56]

It has to matter. That's what this means. You have to be in a position of feeling inside that the way you live really matters to you. And that you are concerned about others. Not that you're paranoid about what everybody thinks of you or something, but that you are actually, that if your actions were to be displeasing to others or hurt others, you actually would not be happy. So you need to feel that way, actually, if you're going to begin the path. So you say that's what you need to, the first thing you need to do. Sometimes they're translated in a more positive way as self-respect and decorum. I was thinking that this relates to what you were saying before. The recluses, the monks in Indian society did have a definite social role. It was a place for them in society, instead of out of society, and they were supported by society to do that.

[29:59]

And it was very important to them that under those circumstances, they really were closely dependent on the support of the social system in order to conduct themselves in this way. And it was very important to them that their position as honorable people be recognized in order for them to be supported. Otherwise they couldn't be supported through spiritual practice. Absolutely, yeah. Virtue, in effect, virtue was their job. Being good, and not only being good, but appearing to be good was their job. And their literal livelihood depended on that. And there's a lot of things in the suttas, not so much in this one, but in other suttas, which discuss how a monk should carry himself or herself, and how a monk should speak, and so on and so forth,

[31:00]

in order to demonstrate the inner qualities. So that it wasn't just a matter of having inner qualities, but of being able to actually understand how to conduct oneself so that those inner qualities were apparent to people. I think probably one hears also terrible stories about monks who conduct themselves nicely, and then in the back room, and so on. But in a more positive light, to be examples of virtue. To be examples of virtue so that people, for the benefit of people, are inspired by that, people like that. We all know if there's one really fair person, or strong person, or virtuous person, or gentle person, or whatever, in our midst, what a difference that can make in a group of people. So they were to be those kind of people. And I think that Charlie's variant translations are very good.

[32:01]

Self-respect and decorum. Because they do express self-feeling inside, and then decorum is a social thing. In other words, worried about or concerned with appearances and how one's life affects others. And still in all, though, I think we're getting over this kind of thing that we had a lot of when I was young, which is this idea of, what's the word, how can I put it, being independent and individual. Why should I care what anybody thinks? Like, if I care what anybody thinks, then that's not being honest. My sense is that this, especially the position of being the first one, is about humility, and the power of humility in the path. And that's where we need a whole wealth of the path. Because that's where everything begins. Yeah, I think that's a...

[33:05]

You're taking it a little further, I think. But I think that's a good insight, yeah. I'm confused about something. It has to do a little bit about what you were saying, about the spontaneity of Zen. And I'm thinking of the line, I'm not quite sure of the context of the segment, for example, when Roberta is being Roberta, when Caroline is being Caroline, and then Zen is Zen. And then, that seems to be like authenticity. And how does authenticity relate to this sort of code of conduct? Good question. And I'll give the response, and then I'll ask for about four or five other ones. Because this is one of these great instances that I mentioned in the beginning, where the teachings of this layer of Buddhism will seem to be contradictory, as you're pointing out, to Zen style and Zen approach,

[34:07]

although I think that's only on the surface, it seems to be that way. So there's lots of things that we can say about this. Do you all understand the point of the question? It's clear, right? I would say myself that it must be clear that spontaneity, if Zen advocates spontaneity, which is dubious to begin with, it probably is not advocating a kind of self-centered, I'll do whatever I feel like doing, spontaneity. Probably not. Probably it's advocating a sense of spontaneity and authenticity that goes deeper than self or ego. And so, probably that kind of spontaneity would be hard won, in the sense that one trains for some time

[35:10]

and grows into it. And, in the same way, I think the true achievement of self-respect and decorum is not self-censorship and controlling oneself, but rather an easygoing sweetness that comes from being at peace with oneself. So actually, these two things to me would quite be the same, although they sound quite opposite. Anyway, that was how I would respond to that. But let's hear some other comments, because this is a good point. Anybody else want to? Yes, Elton. Actually, this is something I've struggled with, taking me a while to come to, to be able to consolidate this question of being yourself and being kind of being, you know, being good, you know, being respectable to other people.

[36:11]

And, you know, how I've kind of reconciled it is that you're actually more yourself, and you can respond to people who are kind to people. That's actually a deeper expression of yourself. So that is, you being yourself, you know, having self-respect. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that the assumption in Buddhism is that we are Buddha. And that's what you're saying. We are Buddha, and so our deepest expression of ourselves is to behave like Buddha. And this is how Buddha behaves. Now, of course, we've got to be careful, because we don't want to, like, put Buddha in a box either. We can't exactly, this is how Buddha behaves. We can't pre-design what that looks like, maybe on the outside. But that our most true expression of who we are is to natural goodness, is, I think, if you want to say it this way, the faith of Buddhism. And I think that we do corroborate this by experience.

[37:15]

I think we do find that. Yeah. Yeah, this is an interesting issue to me too, and I've had similar reactions to both of you. I've been reading this book, which is about Zen reformers, and I don't know if, you know, Zen reformers like Ikkyu would really preach this, but I think also it's important to remember, I think you get excited by looking at these Zen masters who are so unconventional and radical, but they, for one thing, they appeared at a very, very different moment in history, and I think it's interesting to look at the moment of history that's arising. I mean, here Buddhism is brand new, and the foundations are being laid, and then, you know, I don't know how many centuries later in Japan, Zen at that point had gotten very, very corrupted, you know, and very effete, and really moving away from zazen, or spiritual realization. And so a lot of what these people were rebelling against was an inauthentic,

[38:16]

we would call it a version of Buddhism that was very deteriorated. And that was where some of their unconventionality came from. So I think some people, it is appropriate sometimes to say things in a way that might feel upsetting to people, but I think we've, you know, a lot of us have had training that, you know, if I just tell it like it is, say what's on my mind, that's great. And a lot of times, it's hard to say when that is self-cleaning, and I think often it is, and when it really is sort of a cutting through action. And I think it just depends on the situation you're in. Sometimes people have come along and said, you know, political leaders have come along and said things that upset people. You know, Martin Luther King upset people, and he was unconventional. But I think if you check in with people and you're, you know, am I really just being greedy? Am I really just getting something for myself? Or is there some kind of greater benefit going on? So I don't know if there's an easy answer to that.

[39:17]

I know that having practiced repetitive forms of practice, this seems to be talking about a form of practice. Can you all hear her? Am I not speaking loud enough in the back of the room? No, I think, I was just checking, I thought they couldn't hear me. That, you know, having taken up repetitive practices like going to Zao San or taking a tea ceremony, I think Nakamura Sensei would wake up when you made a mistake. She'd sleep through the rest of the night. And that sense of the form kind of having a momentum, but he didn't really have those kinds of repetitive forms of practice. So I'm kind of, I'm surprised. So advocating this attitude, do you think is like a substitute for the... It's a way to start to enclose the form. Well, it makes a lot of sense in a way because I know that in Zen, monasticism,

[40:24]

which is highly formalized as we all know, there isn't that much discussion of this sort of thing because of the idea that just doing the forms is going to bring up these inner feelings. There's more reliance on the outer to bring up the inner. Stuart, do you have one? So I think that it's important, and I agree with essentially everything that's been said. I just only want to add to that that the idea of spontaneity in Zen, the feeling of spontaneity in Zen teaching isn't the same as recklessness. And it should be appreciated that this kind of spontaneity takes place in the context of people who have thrown their entire lives, maybe lifetime after lifetime, into the Bodhisattva vows. They're completely committed to the realization of the Bodhisattva vows and that they have thoroughly taken refuge in the three pressures for all of their lives.

[41:27]

And in that context, what does it mean to be free? That's different from whatever. What I think is kind of funny is that the first part of that paragraph says this is how you're perceived. This is how everyone else sees you. I think there's a simple way of seeing why the Buddha said this. I think it's almost like a teaching of don't identify yourself. Because he says, this is how people see you. When they ask you what you are, you say you're this. You put yourself in that box. I know the rest of the sutra doesn't go on to say this,

[42:28]

but I think in a way this first part kind of says if you're going to label yourself as this, then act like this. If I ask, Sonia, what are you? And she says, I'm Sonia, well then I can say nothing. If she says, I'm a monk, well then I say, well that makes me think of this, and [...] these are the standards by which we set that up. So the Buddha has standards for recluses, but he doesn't have standards for you being you. When you say that recluse is not a word, it's just, recluse is this little box. And if you're going to call yourself that, this is how you practice. This is how you practice in this box. I find. Yeah, no, that's an interesting point. I thought of that too when I read that. In other words, the Buddha doesn't say here,

[43:29]

this is what is necessary to do in order to become free. You know what I mean? Which I think that's the sense of it. That's what it means, certainly, and that's what in other sutras the Buddha does say that, and then gives the same or similar kind of protocol for what you should do. But it is interesting to think about. Here he's saying, well, okay, now if you have this definition that other people give you, and you claim to hold this definition, then you should... So we could think about this a lot, and think, well, okay, suppose they say, well, we don't think we're recluse. And if other people say that we are, we'll say we're not. So then can we avoid the rest of it? Can we get out of all this stuff that we have to do if we just... And then I guess the Buddha, maybe the Buddha would say, well, of course, if you just say you're not a recluse, and you say it, maybe in your heart you really do hold on to identity anyway. That's one thing. So maybe that's true. In other words, yes,

[44:30]

maybe if you really understood that you are not a recluse, and you really were free of that in your own heart, and free of other people's projection on you to be such, I mean, really free, not just, I say I'm free, I think I'm free, but I'm really free of any self-definition, then maybe it's true. You would already have done all the things that it says in the next eight or ten pages, maybe so. But it's a good point. One more thing on that real quick. You talked about the definition of recluse and independence. Inclusion. Thank you. And recluse is closed and closed and open. So, so you call yourself a recluse, and therefore you're going to act like a recluse, and eventually you're going to realize that you're acting like a recluse and not like yourself, and therefore you're open. So in a way he's giving them this great teaching of,

[45:34]

like, put yourself in the box, go ahead, see how long it lasts, it'll come out, it'll open. That's really... Yeah, that's good. That's great, yeah, because certainly in the next turning of the wheel of Dharma, which is not emphasized at all in this whole book, but in another, let's say, after one digests all of this, then the next thing is, don't forget, no tongue, no body, no mind, no recluses, no Buddhas, no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path. That's the next thing. That's the graduate school, right? After you go to the undergraduate school and you're a good recluse, then you go to the graduate school and then you give that up. And then you go to the post-doctorate school where you pick it up again in a new life. So, that's a good point.

[46:36]

I did think about that, but I didn't want to bring it up. And this is a world of society. So, if you're going to be a recluse, you're not going to be a recluse if you don't receive alms and you don't practice society which is important for you to practice. So, that was another little part. It wasn't just... Yes, yes, you brought that up in the beginning. This is very important, not only to receive alms, but to make the alms worth the almsgivings. Yeah, to be worthy of them and to use them well. Well, I would say we thoroughly covered the first couple of paragraphs. What do you think? So, that was the first thing that if you're really going to be a recluse, you're going to have to have self-respect and decorum

[47:39]

if we want to be easy on ourselves or shame and fear of wrongdoing if we want to be tougher on ourselves or confuse ourselves more. So, then... But then the Buddha says now because you may think like this, you may think, oh, we are possessed of shame and fear of wrongdoing. That much is enough. Recluse-ship has been reached. There is nothing more for us to do. And you may rest content with that much. Because I inform you, I declare to you, you who seek the reclusive status do not fall short of the goal of recluse-ship while there is more to be done. And of course, as you have noticed, these sutras are oral teachings and they include a tremendous amount of repetition of exactly the same material from one sutra to another. I know this from poetry. You know, you have a good line and you try to stick it in as many times as possible.

[48:40]

After a while it sort of sounds really more and more profound. I've heard that before. That's what you do. Post-modern poets do that. So, that's what they do here. And this is the repeated formula. You know, you may be content with that much but don't stop there. Don't fall short of the whole goal. Don't stop, you know, at some point and say that's enough. I've done all I need to do. So, it's an interesting thing. You know, the Buddha here is actually encouraging, exhorting the monks on every turn. Each time he gives them a teaching about what they should be doing, he says, and don't be satisfied with that. Do this. I'm going to repeat a little bit about satisfaction and dissatisfaction in the course of practice. And actually, this sort of dissatisfaction

[49:41]

is essential in practice. In other words, we have to have satisfaction with what we're given on each moment. You can't complain about the arrangements. In other words, the arrangements are that's it. Whether it's a happy moment or a really crummy one, you know, this is it. And this is also what I was speaking of the other night in terms of renunciation, that we have to renounce all other possible moments, you know, but this one with whatever it brings. So, we have to be totally satisfied on each moment. On the other hand, we have to have a spirit of making a little bit more introspection of, okay, here's how I'm doing now, here's where I'm at in practice now, and I have to go a little further because it's not a finish yet. And that, you know,

[50:44]

that won't work out if you come to a point and say, well, this is great, I got this down. Because instantly, it's another situation. And so if you think you have it down, pretty soon, instantaneously you're behind, right? So you have to always have the spirit of a little bit more effort which comes from a little sense of dissatisfaction. So it's odd, you know, that you have to have a little bit of dissatisfaction. And you'll see, I forget if in this version of the description of the meditation states, that's how they work, is you go into a deeper meditation state by recognizing, oh, this state is not quite right, and you go deeper. And you go into our... So let's say this, this is a wise dissatisfaction, dissatisfaction that leads to more positive effort in practice. Trouble is, it's awfully close to an unwise dissatisfaction, which is a kind of complaining about things,

[51:44]

which sometimes we do because that's the way our mind is. But it's not the thing to encourage because if we do, then pretty soon we're spinning our wheels. We're just complaining about things that we can do nothing about, and then we can't, you know, stop. Yes? So for a wise dissatisfaction, it seems like it has to be permeated with a really profound satisfaction. Yes, it does, and faith in the possibility of going further, yeah. Absolutely. So then, now we're going to get all the other things following on that first one that must be done, the second one. What more is to be done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus, our bodily conduct shall be purified, clear and open, flawless and restrained, and we will not praise ourselves and disparage others on account of that purified bodily conduct. Now, Bhikkhus, you may think thus, we are possessed of shame and fear of wrongdoing and our bodily conduct has been purified.

[52:46]

That much is enough. That is enough to do. And you may rest content with that much, Bhikkhus. I inform you, I declare to you, you who seek the recluse's status, do not fall short of the goal of recluseship while there is more to be done. What more is to be done? Bhikkhus, you should train thus, our verbal conduct. So first is actions of the body. Now, speech. Our verbal conduct shall be purified, clear and open, flawless and restrained, and we will not praise ourselves and disparage others on account of that purified verbal conduct. Now, Bhikkhus, you may think thus, it repeats the whole thing. Again, you might think that's enough. Well, not quite. You should go further. What more then should you do? Well, you should train thus, our mental conduct shall be purified, clear and open, flawless and restrained, and basically

[53:53]

training rules or precepts or moral conduct should be straightforward and clear, open. These are great words, you know. We should be clear. We should be open. We should strive to, you know, live in that way. And furthermore, not only that, but a very important point, with each one, he says, and not only should you practice and live in that way, but you should not praise yourself for doing that and put down others who you think aren't doing that. It's just as important, in other words, just as important as a purifying body, speech and mind is non-praise of self or disparagement of others. Because if you purify body, speech and mind and you praise yourself for it and disparage others, then what kind of purified body, speech and mind is that? So, then, after body, speech and mind comes livelihood. Next, our livelihood should be

[54:58]

pure, clear and open, flawless and restrained. And then we shouldn't praise ourselves or put down others who we don't think do that. Then comes, so, you can see how this is building, right? This is a building a, basically, a training program from the very beginning. And I think, you know, I'll return to Stuart's point, you know, since you're reckless, since this is your job, you might as well do it. And you have to do it because, you know, you won't survive. So, here's the training program. First of all, you ought to have a good spirit for wanting to do good, not wanting to do bad. You really need the attitude. You've got to have an attitude for this training program first. No attitude, no training program.

[55:59]

So, you've got to have an attitude that you want to do this. And then you've got to work on your ordinary, everyday garden variety conduct. It doesn't say what it means to purify, clarify and open body, speech and mind. Other places, there are discussions of this. But that one should do it is important. And do it with humility. And then also, livelihood. Some other translations say way of life. What it means is, you know, just how you get your livelihood, how you get your living, how you live your life every day. And then from there, you clean up your act. Zen has a little bit different approach in a certain way, you know. Instead of saying in Zen, clean up your act, here the idea is you clean up your act, then you meditate. Because we're going to go through a whole series of things which finally we get to meditation,

[57:01]

which you're now prepared for after a great deal of training in taking care of your life and various other things, in Zen, it's a very odd thing, but in Zen there's no preparation to just sit down in the total Buddha state in the beginning. And nobody says, you know, purified body, speech and mind. Later on, you know, you realize through the sitting that basically you need to do that. Because in the beginning if someone told you you've got to do this, this, this, and this, and this, and then you can sit and say, well, forget it, it's too much trouble. I don't need to do that. It's too hard. You know, boy, I'm going to get to the good stuff now. I don't want to wait until later. So everybody wants to meditate, but nobody wants to do these other things until later, then they realize it's not worth it.

[58:09]

So the next one gets more subtle. You have to now guard the doors of the sense faculties, which is pretty hard to do because our relationship to our sense faculties is very immediate and habitual and subtle, right? So guarding the doors of the sense faculties, what does that mean? On seeing a form with the eye, we will not grasp at its signs and features. Since if we left the eye faculty unguarded, evil, unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might invade us. We will practice the way of its restraint. We will guard the eye faculty. We will undertake the restraint of the eye faculty, and then the same thing is repeated for the other five senses. And I always like to point out

[59:12]

that it's a very remarkable thing that in Buddhism there are six senses, and the sixth one is not like intuition or something. The sixth one is thinking, mental faculty, which is considered to be on a par with the other five senses. So the eye sees a form, the ear hears a sound, the mind cognizes a thought, and these are, it's not as if the thoughts, you see, are up above here looking at all these other things and explaining them somehow, although it's recognized that the mind does have that capacity. Basically, the mind is no more privileged an observer or character than any of the other senses. So this is a very important point because to us, we think, no matter what we think we think, we really think that me, it's the way I think, and I know what's going on. And I'm watching the rest of me doing all these things, and I know what it is. But actually the eye that thinks that it knows what it is is no different from anything else,

[60:13]

the mind, the eye, or the ear, or the nose. It's all confused, you know, and equally. In Buddhist thought, and pre-Buddhist thought as well in India. But anyway, so this is the operative sentence, and we have to think about this closely here. On seeing a form with the eye, or whatever it is, the ear, etc., on seeing a form with the eye, we will not grasp at its signs and features. Grasp, we will not grasp at its signs and features. That's how we're going to practice. We're not going to grasp at the signs and features of things that we see. Which means, it's a very different... See, in the act of perception, we immediately grasp at things. Before we even know what it is, we're already thinking, I don't like her.

[61:14]

I never did like that type of person. There's something about her that bothers me. Before I even... She didn't say anything. I hardly even... This is basically how the mind works. Very habituated to immediately grasping with positive or negative charge virtually everything that comes along. And so, this means that somehow we're going to contrive that I don't know what we're going to do. We're going to take a deep breath, or we're going to slow down our lives, or we're going to pay attention to what our reactions are, or something, or all of the above. How many of this? How many sense impressions does one have in a minute? A lot. A lot. Including thoughts and sounds. I mean, a lot. So, think of what a job this is. I'm going to now pay attention to all of that in a different way. In such a way

[62:15]

that I'm going to try not to hold on so quickly or, in other words, be a little bit more peaceful, a little bit less agitated and intent on having an opinion about everything, having a point of view about everything, doing something about everything that comes in my field of vision. But I'm going to let it be a little bit and just cool out. Something like that. I mean, we can talk about this more. Then, why? Because if we left the I faculty unguarded, evil, unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might invade us. So, this kind of language, I remember when I first heard about greed, hate, delusion, I said, greed, hate, delusion? Who's greedy, hating and delusional around here? I mean, sure, maybe a little grabby once in a while,

[63:17]

but no, it turns out it's not. So, I mean, because the more you look, it's shocking. As we all know, I see by your laughter, you understand what I'm saying perfectly. That even though actually, I mean, in a certain way, I'm sure that everybody sitting in this room is a nice and a good and a decent person. Not a nasty, stinky, rotten person that we would not want to meet. However, also, we all know that if we look inside carefully enough, there is plenty of aggression, violence, greed, hatred, confusion, all the totally nasty things that you could imagine in the world are actually in your mind. It's so.

[64:22]

And as I say, one of the things that often happens is one becomes shocked. So that's why it's good to talk about these things so that you don't get depressed. Wow, I came here thinking I was a pretty good person and I could use improvement. Now I see I'm the worst person I've ever met. Not only do I need improvement, I'm wondering whether I should jump off the bridge or is it worth going on with my life. I'm really shocked to see what I'm finding here. Wow, it's really terrible. So, in other words, that's right. Yes, if we don't do this kind of work, then yeah, we might have, I mean, definitely, we will be invaded by the average everyday stuff which we first thought was just sort of average everyday stuff. Now we're beginning to get it that this average everyday stuff is basically, like they say here, evil unwholesome states of covetousness and grief. It's a characteristic of the average person's mind in a given moment. Really, you know. So,

[65:25]

does that sound all right to you? Yes. Yeah, I don't have any trouble with the idea of not grasping essential data. But my reaction here, and again, this may just be what you stated at the beginning, the difference of how Zen evolved versus what's here. When I hear a statement, this is very, very pervasive in the early scriptures, about guarding a door that sends faculties, to me, right away, when I watch the reaction in my mind, to me, I'm going into dualism. There's a guard, there's something to be guarded, there's separation, you know, there's like, and I just don't want that in my practice and I find it very, very detrimental. And so there's something about the way that is stated, that, you know, whatever, yeah, sticks in my craw. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think this is where we have to apply a little bit of wholesome, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, you have to, in other words, see it in that light, because absolutely, and it may be, I mean, so,

[66:28]

we have to, in a sense, translate that language for ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Because it could have that, and certainly it's been mentioned many times that, that because we're reading these texts with an overlay, or not an overlay, a background of Judeo-Christian feeling, and we've all seen the horrible effects of repression and these kind of things in the world of religion, in our own tradition, and it's also true in Buddhism and Asian traditions as well, we need to be careful about how we understand this stuff. yeah, so, maybe we need to translate it for ourselves in another way. And also, the word evil, I got a wonderful letter actually from a Zen teacher from far away, an old comrade who heard that we were you know, like, undertaking to re-translate the Soto Zen liturgy, and

[67:31]

she wrote like a really interesting and cogent and impassioned letter about the word evil, saying, you know, please don't use this word in the liturgy, because like, you know, the first pure precept, right, I vow to avoid all evil, I vow to do all good, she said, please don't translate it that way, there are other ways to translate it, don't use the word evil. And she said, because the word evil is hopelessly mired in this kind of stuff, and no matter what you do, you know, we think of all the new people we always have coming, and they're going to hear this thing about evil, and they're going to project onto it all the sort of idea of evil and the devil and some independently existing evil and so on and so forth. And it was actually a very smart letter and I appreciated it. But the other point of view is let's understand that word evil and these kind of words in the way that they really are meant

[68:32]

in Buddhism. So rather than going around the language, we'll go head on into it. And I think there's good arguments both ways. Definitely in Buddhism evil has to do with unwholesome, unskillful states that cause suffering. That's what evil means in Buddhism. In other words, those states of mind and those behaviors and ways of being that will definitely lead to suffering. Suffering in one's own heart and the suffering of others. Not that there's some shameful, horrifying force outside of us that inculcates itself, insinuates itself in us and so on and so on. You know, which you feel. Now, I don't know actually what a lot of Bible-thumping Christians mean when they say evil actually. But it sure sounds like this reified, yeah, terrible thing.

[69:33]

It doesn't sound good. You don't feel like you can work with that. At least I don't. I have a hard time figuring out how to work with that. I mean, I do. Now, I'm sure there's a way. These people are not stupid. I've been doing this for a long time and I'm sure there's a way that they work with it. I just don't happen to find it too workable. Whereas this I find much more workable. Well, yes. And I know that that's true that I have in my own mind ways of thinking, behaving, speaking, and so on. I mean, I could make a lot of trouble really fast. I mean, I know that if I did certain things with body, speech, and mind I would really make tremendous suffering as we all can do. And I'm not I don't like that. I'm not right. I mean, there was a time when when you're young maybe you liked suffering. And you think, well, suffering's exciting. I used to think suffering's exciting, you know. It gets tiresome, though, after a while, especially the repetitive nature of it, you know. So when you start to get that then you think,

[70:34]

well, that's not the way. So that's what is meant here. So if you, in other words, on this very minute, careful level it's necessary and here we have to think about this together. What does it mean here? What does it mean actually? Let's say that we want I think we would all agree, most likely, that we would like to avoid the problem that you're bringing up. We don't want to it's not going to work out for us to repress ourselves be very uptight about everything and feel bad about ourselves every time we look at something, hear something, or taste something, you know. So therefore, given that, given that we all assume that, how what does this mean? How are we going to do this? What does it mean to guard the sense door? So maybe we'll hear some comments about that for a minute and see. Yes? We're going to pass this back to the last one. I can't remember

[71:34]

if the last one was, but they were making a point of substituting the word damaging for evil and he went on and on about saying that evil is specific and directed damaging action or thought and just like all of us have the capacity to be damaging in our actions, in our words, in our thoughts, we also have the capacity in that definition of evil. So that's a less mired word of damaging. Yes, so I think that's the sense of it in Buddhism I think. I was just curious, did your friends suggest alternative words to what? I don't To be honest with you, I don't remember. She probably did, you know, but I don't remember right now. I was just curious about that. Yeah, oh there's different ways to translate it. For a long

[72:35]

time we didn't, in fact, we didn't use evil for a long time for just that reason and then only recently actually we've been translating the word as evil. And evil is actually probably the best translation actually when you look at what the word really means except that it carries this baggage. Yeah, Carrie. I just wanted to say the idea of guarding is senseless. You know, it's not like you're going to drop bombs on whoever comes by but you're watching and it's a sense of being mindful of what is coming into these type of stories. Yes. It's not like you're doing it or hurting it. You're watching it. You're watching what's coming in. Yes. Yeah, in fact, not only that but while this might sound like repression and being tied around

[73:35]

the center, it may be just the opposite. What you're doing is allowing yourself to appreciate in the sense of really being there for things you see and hear and think and so on. So, whereas most of the time, in fact, we don't even have any idea what we see or hear because we're so already in there already with our opinions and our complaints and our whatever that we don't you know, I mean, that's why every once in a while when we see something it's shocking. We actually like somebody said what did they oh, I yeah, like this is art I'm supposed to do this, right? Somebody said I was at the museum they said I forget what this but somebody said you know how it is when you go to an art museum and you look at the artworks and then you go outside and everything looks different or fresh it's actually there you know that feeling they said they were talking about

[74:37]

something else so it's actually startling when you do and often we feel this too with meditation practice, right? We all know that experience too when the mind is this is the best food that anybody could ever possibly make it couldn't be you couldn't go to the big restaurant this is I mean I'm only paying like three dollars for this meal I could go down to this other restaurant and pay ninety-eight dollars and it wouldn't be as good because the

[75:37]

obvious thing you know is that when we eat a lunch you know there's the food and there's the one that receives the food if the one that receives the food is a mess the food is not going to taste good the one that receives the food is pure and clear you know a drop of water tastes great so in this sense retraining the senses may just be the opposite of depression see when you grab everything I mean like if you eat if you get the best Ben and Jerry's ice cream right and you don't guard the sense doors and you eat seven pints of it believe me the fifth sixth and seventh pints are not going to taste that good you know what I'm saying they won't they really won't taste that good although it seems like if you're really really present I've noticed when I'm

[76:37]

really really sensually present there's enjoyment but I'm usually satisfied much faster because I really taste it I taste real mouthful and I find when I'm craving and I'm overeating is when um when I don't know what's going on or when I'm doing something else yeah that's just exactly what I'm saying that's exactly what I'm saying exactly yeah so that's what I'm saying is that guarding the sense doors for you guarding sense like yeah yes something about guarding for me always implies something precious yeah that's good yeah rather than guarding like the police or something yeah you want to guard it holding a baby yeah preciously guard it not with carelessly yeah yeah

[77:58]

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I think to me it does have a lot to do with quieting in a sense quieting and being aware you know quieting and being aware and appreciating you know rather than um controlling cause yeah and often those words are used in and I mean I think we have to acknowledge that I think that many Buddhist practitioners reading these texts with those words would have understood it in some way like that and would have perhaps been narrow minded about would have understood guard you know control I mean I think there is there is that I think certainly from our point of view being aware of all the teachings beyond that and having reflected on it and also being aware of our own cultural background I think we would really be

[79:02]

aware of that kind of error and its use and the problem on it yeah I think that like dealing with it's very easy to get caught up in it to say that the food that we eat during Sashin is the greatest food because we are so aware of it I think that in and of itself is like this grasping or holding on to or something and then when you say you know that meal we had during that Sashin was the greatest meal it's like I can only think of like mine usually leaking or something like just spouting I don't know it's like this why are you labeling it like that why are you putting it there can't it just be the food that you're eating good I'm glad that you're seeing it like this it's not the food's

[80:02]

taste that's any different it's just that you're with it that's good yeah and I think that when you practice in this way that we're discussing here in various ways you do see clearly how it is that you you actually get to see the process of grasping and how the process of grasping does remove you from your life take away your appreciation of your life make you dissatisfied and make make trouble you can really see that process unfolding fairly clearly when you do when you try to do this kind of practice I want you to say to be very present and maybe maybe quiet is a good way to think about it a little bit lower key around your experience yeah isn't it interesting how we go from grasping it's not it's not grasping yeah so then I'm not grasping when I'm just sort of

[81:02]

it seems like a tendency of the mind to jump to oh well that must be depressing yeah or averting yeah which is just the same the flip side of the same thing that's right and that's not what's being suggested at all that's right but that's the way we tend to think oh I'm not grasping and I must be trying to push it away right but pushing it away is like you said exactly it's meant technically pushing away is the same thing as grasping basically it's another form of grasping yeah so it's like you know I'm not grasping this now I'm grasping it but even though it's still in my hand I'm not grasping it it's not that I have to get rid of it in order not to grasp it you know mm hmm yeah specifically sounds like grasping at its signs and features yeah and that confuses me it almost seems to me like all art is grasping at the signs and features of the world of the senses all music

[82:03]

all painting you know the creation of the beautiful gardens and I don't you know that confuses me yeah well yes that's a little technical thing yeah about the signs and the features um maybe I can say this that the idea is on a deeper level it's not only about not grasping but it's about not being uh confused by defining things what it really means is not letting the senses in the act of perception reify things really appreciating that everything sort of is there for an instant and can't really be uh named and controlled in the act of perception

[83:05]

which is a pretty subtle point that really involves meditation practice so in a certain way in the conversation we're having here we're kind of glossing over that point and we probably should at this stage you know of our discussion here because it's only later uh at the end of the course of study here that's being built up when you uh really kind of clarify through your building up to a deep meditative insight as to the nature of phenomena that you get to not really and truly at all grasp and reify things so here I think this is sort of saying I mean as the next one will detail for us it's saying you know now okay gang if we're going to do this we're going to be recluses we're going to do this training we do have to clean up our act we have to clean up the way we speak the way we use our body and the way we think and so on and let's not like you know eat sloppy overeat take a lot of drugs

[84:06]

uh run around and have sex with everybody we meet and so on let's not or be just obsessed with things that we see or hear in other words let's cool down here you know we got to cool down and sort of straighten out and simplify our life a little bit because the following steps will require that of us and if we don't do that we won't be able to progress along this little graduated path that's being set forth here so at that stage that's I think that's enough for us to consider you know and then later on we can go deeper these same practices interestingly in this graduated path um can all be revisited at later stages of development and deepen so in the beginning uh it might be quite obvious and quite coarse what it means to be pure in our acts of body speech and mind but then after we deepen our practice more and understand a lot more we go back and then we say whoa you know I got to go further with body speech and mind I got to go further with guarding the sense doors

[85:08]

and so on and so on but at this stage you know I think it's just a question being a little more restrained a little quieter a little more peaceful with the six senses and I think that we kind of came to the end of the class and uh so um we'll stop there with moderation in eating so we can all eat moderately between now and the next time we meet after which we'll have to change that so thank you all for coming and uh I always it's it's funny I I uh I enjoy giving classes and I think it's the most important thing so it's really given that it's really really stupid that I you know messed up on the schedule I'm sorry again but and and again it's this is uh nobody's uh needs to come just come if you like Thursday next Tuesday and if you did uh

[86:08]

pay for the class uh you can of course you don't have to get your money back but if you you should certainly deserve to get it back so the office knows about it and will give it back to you May they pay our attention

[86:23]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ