a 30s poet, lived in the 30s, 40s, 50s, radical communist in a totalitarian country, was sentenced to 25 years in prison for writing a poem. You've got to admit, they appreciated the power of poetry, and I'm going to trigger it. 25 years. No, no, in Turkey. For writing this one poem? No, he wrote a poem about a 13th century revolutionary in Turkey. And for that he got 25 years in prison. I say that because some of the imagery in the poem has... You'll notice a certain tenure to it. Yeah. Just to know that.

[01:05]

Okay. Living is no laughing matter. You must live with great seriousness. Like a squirrel, for example. I mean, living must be your whole occupation. Living is no laughing matter. You must take it seriously. So much so, and to such a degree, that, for example, your hands tied behind your back, your back to the wall, or... in a laboratory, in your white coat and safety glasses, you can die for people. Even for people whose faces you've never seen. Even though you know living is the most real, the most beautiful thing, I mean, you must take living so seriously that even at 70, for example, you'll plant olive trees and not for your children either. But because although you fear death, You don't believe it. Because living, I mean, weighs heavier. Let's say you're seriously ill, need surgery, which is to say we might not get up from the white table.

[02:17]

Even though it's impossible not to feel sad about going a little too soon, we still laugh at the jokes being told. We look out the window to see if it's raining or wait anxiously through the latest newscast. Let's say we're at the front for something worth fighting for, say. There, in the first offensive, on that very day, we might fall on our face dead. We'll know this with a curious anger, but we'll still worry ourselves to death about the outcome of the war, which might last for quite a few years. Let's say we're in prison. and close to 50. And we have 18 more years, said, before the iron doors will open. We'd still live with the outside, with its people and its animals, its struggle and its wind. I mean, with the outside beyond the walls.

[03:21]

I mean, however and wherever we are, we must live as if we'll never die. This earth will grow cold. A star among stars. And one of the smallest. A gilded moat on a blue velvet. I mean this, our great earth. This earth will grow cold one day. Not like a block of ice or a dead cloud even. But like an empty walnut, it will roll along in pitch black space. You must grieve this right now. You must feel this sorrow now, for the world must be loved this much if you're going to say, I live. So we've been talking about

[04:29]

the mystery and talking about the vivid blue and green iridescence of the kingfisher. You know, the particular of existence, physical existence, human existence, And how the terms have been translated into English, in Zen and in Buddhism, there's form, that's the particularity of being, and there's the formless, the mystery that hasn't got a defined condition or expression. So you have the formula, you have form,

[05:31]

and then you have the integration of the two and how Hikmet says something in us even when we know our time has come and our death is close we're still curious about what the weather is what the newscast is this integration is within us. You know, we can talk, oh, well, here we are in this precious circumstance. How will we take it out into our lives? And we can take it and say, how do we integrate the different worlds we live in?

[06:38]

How do we integrate the different worlds within us? That which wishes to lower down into the mystery and that which wishes to spring forth and live fully. So I have an exercise for this. But it doesn't involve pen and paper. Pen and paper. But what it does involve, it involves interaction. Interaction. You get to be one part of yourself and someone else gets to be the other. We can think of it as integration. And then we can think of it as Nazimek, he plays with it.

[07:42]

It's almost like a paradox. It's not that we don't fear death. It's just that we don't believe it. There's too much life to be lived. To simply let that be the definitive statement. And then in spiritual practice. I had this interesting exchange with one of the students and they came to me and they said, I'm not sure if I should be here. And of course that's, A powerful and wonderful question.

[08:44]

Should I be here? Should I be doing this? Or am I being called to something else? Is this expression expressing my life's purpose? And then we discussed it. And I said... And then it formulated as a question... And I said, take that away, live with it for a week, and then come back. And then they came back, and they said, everything's different. It was so wonderful, because before, they had been concerned about money. And then they received word that they had an inheritance, and there was no concern about it. they were concerned that it wasn't strict enough here.

[09:45]

That they wanted to be even more strict and more fully immersed in real Zen. And then I discovered they were quite interested in another person. And maybe a life devoted to stirring at a blank white wall It wasn't the entirety of what you were... How amazing life is, you know? You have a problem that's going to last forever, a question that's going to tie you to a certain condition, and a week later, you have another world to face. So here's the exercise.

[10:53]

You know, when we look at spiritual practice, of course it says, in celebration of gratefulness, in celebration of yes, in celebration of belonging to now, it says live fully. And then, to put it in Buddhist terms, it also says, in the service of the mystery, don't grasp any form and relate to it as if it's permanent, as if it's absolute. So we have this tension. And the integration happens as we play with the tension.

[12:00]

If we break them into good and evil, we have a battle. We have a conflict. As we play with the tension, we discover integration. We discover how to operate in a world that has them both. How to operate within a self that has them both. So that's the exercise. Sorry? that hasn't walked, a world that hasn't walked. Broken? She's asking you to repeat what she said. She didn't hear the end. Just the last word. Broken? Broken. Both. Both. Both. Thank you. Okay. So if you could pair up with someone else, and then I'll tell you the details of the exercise. Anyone. Someone. I've got one. My next two. No, no, we'll figure it out.

[13:17]

Thank you. Okay. So you decide who's going first and who's answering first? And you're going to repeat that. I'm going to tell you. You go first. You go first.

[14:21]

All right. You got that part figured out? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. [...] Okay, here's the preample. This Buddhist text, a Zen text, called Chin Chin Min, and it starts off with, the first line is, the great whip. The great spiritual way is easy if you just avoid picking and choosing. What? Avoid what?

[15:23]

Just avoid picking and choosing. Picking and choosing. Okay? What? Picking and choosing. Oh. Sometimes it's translated as power. I've heard it said, in a human condition, that's not always what happens. I've heard it said. Yes. So, then we have that other wonderful existential question. What do you want? What do you want? Do you want? Yes. So we're going to pair them up. Here's the exercise. You say to your partner, what do you want? The answer? You give them a life in the Shinshen. Just avoid picking each other. This great existential dilemma. You know? Okay?

[16:24]

You're not scolding them. You're not belittling them. You're scolding them for them to see this paradox about your life. Okay? So if we ask them what they want, they tell us what they want, and then we say... That's the end. No, that's just the beginning. Is it something material we want? Oh, you decide what you want. I'm not going to decide. It's, you know... How can anybody else tell you what you want? How can anybody else, you know, tell you you can only want this and not that? You know? Okay? Yes. More than one? I mean, so I'm going to think once, but I want that. No.

[17:26]

This is going to be a repeated pass. Who ever wanted just one single? So we're going to say different things when the question is asked again. You're going to let it pour out of your heart. Okay. You can even bypass your mind, if you would. With your answer, what you want. Okay? And the tricky part is a little bit of a rhythm. As I was saying before, try to make your answer concise. Okay? Okay? Somewhat concise. And then just to pause. And then you ask the question again. Just like life. It's always starting over. Okay? You're going to have about several minutes to do this. Do what you're doing completely.

[18:35]

And... everything changes similarly belong to where you are and accept that nothing lasts forever give each thing the time it needs let it have its own bondless now And be adaptable and ready for the next thing. And then just like that person I mentioned, life presents us with the challenge of the moment. If we want to get a little bit dramatic, we can say it takes us on a hero's journey. And it asks for everything we've got.

[19:42]

And it asks us with radical honesty to see the immensity of what we're faced with. You know, like Nazim Ahmed's poem, you know. Of course it's from his time and place, but is our time and place any quieter and calmer than Turkey in the 50s? and how can we with radical honesty meet the challenge of the moment how can it in a way be both a matter of life and death and just play From a Zen place, these are enlightenings.

[20:55]

This is not meant to leave us feeling crushed and defeated and confused, but to... That is, as we continue the hero's journey... Time and time again, we face the immensity and then we take the next step. We step off the hundred foot pole. And we learn to trust. We learn to trust the courage of being alive. And we learn to live the paradox. That life is the reckless process of responding to what you want and also the humble process of not

[22:14]

grasping it in a demanding way. The discipline process of not demanding it. And in this way, the question that arises for us is a koan. A koan holds up both the form, the particular, and and the mystery. And it asks us to discover how they dance together. It asks us for both the full commitment, the earnest commitment, and the sense of play. So listen to these questions and see can your mind hold them in both their request and spaciousness.

[23:20]

And see what arises in your own mind as an answer to these questions. What is the most important question in my life? If something pops into your mind, And you're willing to say it out loud, say it out loud. How to live? How to love more fully. Okay, the next question. Why are we here?

[24:25]

To live. To live. To give and receive. To praise. What is the purpose of my life? To discover. To discover. To blossom. To be fully alive. To give and receive. To give and receive. How do you discover your life's purpose and then live it?

[25:33]

Keep learning. Stay in the now. Walk through the doors that open. In terms of peak experience, how do I become accident prone? How do I become available for it? Take risk on your experience. Rest in relationship. Stay awake. Suffer. Acknowledge what they happened.

[26:51]

Live your dreams. Be open to surprise. Let go of the question. How do I open my life to the purpose I'm meant to be? Be true to yourself. Pray for guidance. Don't be afraid. Say yes. Let go of bad habits. Step out. Pay attention to what's teaching. Trust. Explore.

[28:01]

What do I really want? Respect. Joy. Avoid picking and choosing. For you. To be awake. Peace. Joy. Is it okay not to have questions? Is it okay not to have answers? Maybe so.

[29:19]

Maybe so. How can I understand that pain is part of life unfolding as it should? um, transformation and growth. Bring this away. Embrace it. What makes life worth living if all is taken away?

[30:21]

The next breath. Deeper presence. You're still alive. Why is gratitude so powerful? Well, that's the heart. It connects us with interbeing. Wait to stop.

[31:30]

I feel very lucky in my life and have gratitude. But I feel guilty about being so lucky. Why? Because I'm comparing and I shoot not so good. Because we're sensitive to those who help us. Because I feel I'm being called to do something and I'm not. Perhaps it's an invitation to share your thunder. Because I don't think I deserve it.

[33:36]

Any other question arising in your heart-mind at this moment? How can I avoid speaking and choosing? Good question. Isn't that a conflict? Because if you desire not to desire, that's a desire. If you... Choose not to choose, that's a choice. Is that a question? Is that a question? Does the question open and expand or does the question contract around the right answer? So you just got the secret of Zen.

[35:25]

Let somebody else do all the work. Socrates. Socrates said that? Yeah, he just kept asking. Oh. That'll do all the work, which means we're not the problem. Can I put some work back on you and ask you to talk about the relationship between Father David's mystery and Zen's formalistness? You can. But here's what I had in mind. We'd wrap up this, then we'd take a break, And then we'd acknowledge that this will be our last Q&A session, because tomorrow we'll have a closing session, and that will be more acknowledgement and celebration of what has come about.

[36:36]

And then on the break, you can think about, given all this, what would you like... have said what questions you have okay also what questions you asked and didn't really get an answer there's no question i have mine that what i would like to start over so that's okay um Again, trying to illustrate the two requests of us. Come down into what we are and come forth and meet what is. And the integration of the two.

[37:45]

Sometimes it's very interesting. We speak our truth And as we're speaking it, we think, I could have said it this way. Or, now that I've said that, this is how I would like to say it the next time. It's not a static process. The answer we give is never the whole story. It's just, hopefully, it's our best effort in this moment. And that's what enlightens you. And that's what teaches us when is life not asking us to do what we're doing? When is life not asking us to meet what we're meeting? When is life not asking us to experience what we're experiencing? How else

[38:46]

can we enter into now? And when is that not alluding to the immensity of being? When is that not the hero's journey? And when is that not available for leisurely play? leisurely play that old Zen answer have a cup of tea yeah that's a thunderous question would you like some tea? okay so we'll take a break and you can conjure up whatever let's still make a comment on this exercise that we did please very pleased

[39:48]

But I want to say no, because I'm wondering if others had the same experience. Many times, don't pick and choose was exactly the answer to what you had said before. If you really want that, then don't pick and choose. I have many of the questions. What do you want? I want this. Okay, you'll get it if you don't pick and choose. Did you have the same experience? Yeah. Was that what? No, that was for you to discover for yourself. The best learning is what you discover for yourself. Okay, so let's take a break and then we'll come back in.

[40:49]

Any comments, any questions? Thinking of the whole week, thinking of the last hour, today. Please. Radical honesty is very courageous. And attitude. And you said full commitment. But the linkage from full commitment with radical honesty to a sense of play, what does it require? What attitude does it require? Or yesterday when you said if you sweep, you just sweep. Yes. If you eat, you just eat. Yes. Are all senses welcomed to be part of that? And is there any, I might call it now, emotional attitude or inclination in that?

[41:59]

Enjoying, for example. And if I dare to go with that radical honesty into something, How do I tend to much pain? What are the tools? Is self-compassion something important in there to be able to live with compassion? Terrific. In a way there's an easy expression of radical honesty because Radical honesty is just being honest about what's already happening. Usually what's happening impacts us a certain way. There's something about it we like or something about it we don't like and it sort of shapes our response to it.

[43:08]

We're more inclined towards how we'd like it to be than our acceptance of how it is. With the benefit of radical honesty, you know, yesterday I was mentioning, you know, Rilke's image that appears several times in his portrait of the gravity of being that draws us down into ourselves. That's radical honesty. This is what's happening. And that can include, and I don't have a clue what to do about it, or I'm very frightened by this. Or, I'm delighted. And usually, when we're hesitant to meet it just as it is because we have a response that's saying something like, this would be better if it was different. And that can express itself in disappointment, anxiety, yearning, resentment,

[44:12]

And that radical honesty, when it draws us down into our being, there's a natural acceptance. His brother David, and we were talking earlier in the week, the difference between pain and suffering, even when it's different. And I think that's what Nazismic Mac was trying to say. there will be circumstances in our life that are difficult. And that's not in contradiction or opposition to living, to living fully. It still carries the weight of being what's happening in the moment. And in a way we could say, as that makes us humble, the immensity of being.

[45:28]

We never have been in control and we never will, but we can participate fully. And sometimes that's a hard one discovery. And then sometimes, you know, your three-year-old child teaches you all you really need to know about. And we learn to trust the territory of radical honesty and being what is. And in that trust, it's almost like a tender mercy comes forth. And our gratitude and the leisure of playfulness seem, they just seem to introduce themselves into the mix.

[46:36]

It's like when we're struggling with it, they're very far away. response okay thank you thanks wonderful question I have a question and this is probably something that we talked about last year in the workshop and I don't remember what was said to be honest but it's about enlightenment about Enlightenment as a permanent state, which is something that it's sometimes talked about in Buddhism. And sometimes I'm not sure that such a state exists, like a totally enlightened master or teacher. Or is it just moments of enlightenment, of awakening and coming back to regular states?

[47:43]

Or if you think there is... such a state of permanent enlightenment. In the Buddhist teachings, there's interesting gradations. And the first gradation is that it's called you've entered the stream. The process of practice. something in you has had enough experience to enter into that. And so you enter into it, and as you continue, even though there's still resistance, confusion, that's your basic mode of being. And then the second gradation is that, and here it's,

[48:44]

it's generally articulated in terms of reincarnation. But that's not a necessary belief to get the message. And in terms of reincarnation, it's that you will be reborn one more time before you've finished your process of awakening. And we can think of it this way. That you are... This is not exactly the last time you're going to enact this self-centered way of being. But you're getting close to seeing through it. You know, as we enter this dream, we're no longer fooled by self-centered constructs. Me, you know. But they still have energy.

[49:45]

They still have authority. And then as we continue, that authority starts to waver. But still here I am doing this. It still has enough authority for that to be the case. And then as we continue, that That impulse is still around, but it no longer has the authority to define the behavior, the perspective, the engagement, the response. And then that is called the non-returner. The what? Non-returner. Non-returner. You're not going to return to being caught up. And then from there, the last notion is that what arises is just seen as this play of conditioned existence.

[51:02]

The capacity, as Brother David was saying, the capacity for leisure meets each situation. You know, there's a wonderful story about Suzuki Roshi. where they thought he had hepatitis. It turned out he had cancer, but they thought he had hepatitis. And so then one of his close students was coming in, and he'd just been told that he had terminal cancer. And he said to her, good news, I don't have hepatitis. Okay, sit here on the edge of the bed. And then when she was comfortable, he told her, but I do have cancer. That way, there is space, there is leisure, there's a space to comfort.

[52:06]

To say, oh, yeah, there is this event that's happening. It's not so serious, but it does include my death. And his way of saying that was, I'm going to die, and I'm going to have pain, and that's okay. I will just be a pained Buddha. That will be the process. In terms of the question, where does Kensho come in, that term? And you spoke about no return, but there is some notion that once you have had this first insight, you can never return to not knowing.

[53:13]

So Kensho comes in as you have your first taste. And is that the point where you can't go back? No. No. That's the point where you know what's possible. That's the entering the street. Now, and then, and this is the Rinzai process. The Soda process is that you're just constantly working with this and you're constantly releasing and letting go into the now. And the image is you walk in a mist and eventually you're soaked to the skin. It's this gradual but thorough process. And then the Rinzai technique is you make this extraordinary determined effort, concentrated, and you have this experience of the now. And it's radically different from

[54:18]

the usual karmic construct. And that's deeply informative. And it influences you not to take the karmic construct as the absolute truth. Now the energy of your habitual responses is often weakened but it's not totally gone. And then you just keep working with it. And in the Rensai style, since Hakawa 300 years ago, they developed a series of koans that are designed to help you work with your habituated way of being. But the reason I said constructed by Hakuna, because not to think, you know, this was always the practice.

[55:23]

The practice was also that just in continuing the practice, you'll be continually learning and continually discovering. And the word samadhi can be translated as continuous contact. you're continuously contacting the experience of now. And as we continually contact the experience of now, it's continually teaching us and drawing us into being now. And as we do that, there's a loosening and a releasing of the karmic habituations. It strikes me that quite a few of the questions that have been asked deal with how we do we get from here to here. Yes.

[56:25]

You've posited through practice or through that determined focus. And I'm thinking of the last scene in the film, the wind and the line. Two men are on horseback. One turns to the other and says, but the Rizuli, all is lost on the wind. And the response is, the dark net, Hasn't there ever been anything worth giving up everything for? What role does passion or even madness play in that change that we see? We've been talking about the passion of being fully alive. I think Brother David has been in an extraordinarily powerful erudite way, say that this is what we want. We want to be alive.

[57:26]

We want to enjoy. We want to join with joy. And then in our small selfishness, we want to own it. We want to hold on to it. And that's the great irony of how we separate from it. So passion is indeed an agent of awakening, but there's a way in which our passion misses the point and wants to ensure its own survival by grasping. And then we're faced with this notion of give up everything.

[58:28]

But really what it's saying is give up everything you're grasping. Write down to the thought. And this is the rebirth that spirituality talks about. We're reborn in the Holy Ghost. We're purified in the baptismal water. We let go of everything. We let go of everything and become potential. Potential. And then we also we let go of everything and taste the taste of the soup. And feel the hot water of the baths on her skin. And feel the sadness that arises in response to something.

[59:37]

You know, everything is the entryway into now. And that almost miraculously, that's also living now, living completely. And that as we do it, this giving and receiving, it's like a stream that carries us along. And yet something in us Sometimes there's a saying in Zen. It says, trapped, we pass through. We try everything else first. And then when this is our last option, you know, it's sometimes how I think of the hero. The hero tries everything, and then the last option, everything has failed him, and then passing through.

[60:44]

and descends from the danger of the mountain and brings the good work, or brings the great fruits of it. Does that answer your question? And then to extend it, you know. So, at that point, Zen says, maybe so, and don't know. How far can consciousness go? Okay, so we can be angry and we can stop being angry. We can be hateful and we can love. How far can we go? And when you start to look at neuroscience now and you see, okay, under the influence of mindfulness, the prefrontal cortex can shift from what's a more normal state, which is somewhat pessimistic.

[61:54]

It can shift to optimistic. Now, what can someone who has established a clarity, a capacity to concentrate, a capacity to let the neural waves the functioning of that neural existence. And then in Buddhism, as in other Asian traditions, they, shall we say, speculate that the capacity is not only beyond our human imagination, but it's extraordinary in its scope, in its potency. And that's how you have the Pure Land School. The Pure Land School simply says, I can just ask this supernatural being to lift me up.

[63:02]

And I think you find that in Catholicism too. I know when I grew up, you just prayed to different saints for different things. They each had their special things. well so then the shakramuna the person becomes this super buddha who who capabilities just go beyond human imagination. And then there's a series of sutras which just expound these extraordinary possibilities and say, yep, that just touches it.

[64:04]

This may be a good example for two very different conceptual approaches leading to the same attitude. One person will say, I make the effort again and again to trust life. Life is my encounter with that great mystery and faith, my faith is I trust life. Even when it looks very difficult or bad, destructive. And the other one says, Pure Lamb says I trust Buddha and he'll pull me out. Yes. That is a personification and making it most easier to approach this of exactly the same attitude. Yes. Trusting life. Trusting the mystery. Yes.

[65:11]

And don't you think there's an equivalent within the Taoism? Oh yeah, yeah, sure. trusting the Savior, the Savior, Jesus as Savior, Jesus Christ as Savior. So that means through Jesus and through what I know about Jesus, I trust that Jesus Christ, now risen and hidden in God, will If I call on him, I trust him. Is Zen the trust in the now? Is that how you would express it, maybe? Or is there some other... Is there an equivalent? It's okay. The question that now is not so much that I will be saved as it is that the whole paradigm, the whole notion of needing to be saved will be disbanded and that the natural abundance of existence will be realized.

[66:45]

Do you think this approach that you're just referring to in Pure Land and Christianity has anything to do with just the simple idea of setting an intention? Or In other ways, do we get a positive effect by just agreeing, it's a little bit of a commitment, without really knowing, almost an innocence? You know, I'm hesitant to try to, in a way, rationalize it. You know? that kind of faith, that kind of beseeching is not something I've practiced.

[67:51]

And what you're alluding to is much closer to what I practice. And so I feel like my affinity is drawn in that direction. But I also feel like it's important for me personally to leave the not knowing of what else is possible. I've seen both in Buddhism and Catholicism people of deep faith who it seemed to have an extraordinary effect on their being. When you... Beside this, I vow, no matter how numerous beings are, I vow to save them all. What do you sort of, how would you say it in your own words?

[68:57]

How would I say it? I would say that the net of interbeing is vast. And at this moment of action, this moment... of giving to that ripples through that net. How it does it, I have no idea. What the consequence of it, I have no idea. But this is the vow I make now. And what does saving mean in that context? Well, that's just You know, when we debate, like I think of it more as we awaken with, you know, in being part of this net of interbeing that we awaken together.

[70:07]

Well, I've decided that, of course, many times. I would You could probably say what I meant, this big letter which you speak, that wants what we call saved. It goes in that direction of freedom, happiness, joy, and all that. But the opposite of being saved is being lost. So many of these creatures are lost in me. And so when I make this vow, I vow that I will do whatever I can, so to say, whatever is demanded of me. I'm willing to do whatever is demanded to say yes to that saving will of the great net.

[71:12]

I would completely agree with that, and it's just the verb, say. To me, it's like... But that's what we say in English, no? That is what we say. To me, that's coincidental. That's the word we chose. What we're alluding to says more than how we might in a conventional way, think of the word save. But Tyson addressed that question long, long ago, and he said, when you think of saving, when you say the word save, you always think of a lifesaver who sits down and pulls you out when you're in trouble. But that is the least frequent use of the word save. You save money, you save water, you save energy. That means... positively, you affirm that every drop is valuable.

[72:17]

And so, when you save, when you vow that you save, you affirm the value of every little creature. Yes. Now, in that spirit, I feel like that carries well. And that fits both the Christian and the Buddhist notion of saving. Ah, yes. What a everybody needs much, even more than being pulled out of trouble, is to be affirmed in their dignity. And when Paul says, I live yet not alive, Christ lives in me, he's not making a private statement there, but he says, this is your dignity, Christ lives in you. And everybody who hears that That is saved in the sense of like saving energy or saving water. Listen.

[73:19]

You are of greatest. That's the greatest gift that you can give to anybody. Beautiful. You have a question? Yeah. I thought you were texting me. Question for Brother David. Earlier you said the phrase that you use yourself is, Lord Jesus Christ, mercy. Is that right? Lord Jesus Christ, mercy. Yeah, yeah. Okay, just saying that's a phrase you use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why, who, what Jesus Christ is this? What Jesus Christ? When you say that, what is in Jesus Christ you're beseeching for mercy? Why not God? And why not God? Well, I mean the great mystery of God under the aspect of being God, which means literally and originally that which is called upon by you, that great you, which...

[74:38]

I, as a Christian, came to know through Jesus, the Christ. And a Buddhist came to know that same great mystery under the aspect of being related to it as Buddha. Yes. So I mean God, of course. The call upon mystery. The mystery under the aspect of being called... recorded and answered it. We need some image. We always have an image. It's not this, it's another one. We can't whittle it down until it's just a blur, but that doesn't help very much. For two weeks, it's very helpful to have this Christ image. Some thought that Christ's image adjusted to what we really need.

[75:42]

Like the image of the transfigured Christ, really standing with both feet on the earth. And later, the ways of painting Jesus like a rougher, really sort of flying up in the air, and our, you know, Abednego said, that's awful, that's awful. In the transfiguration, the whole point is that he stands firmly on the earth and shines with the mystery. He shines with God. Not flying up there from there. The whole earth shines. Every cloud shines. Or, when I'm sick, when I'm in agony, she's in the garden or so. This gruesome The most gruesome depiction of the cross is by Grunewald. I don't know whether it's Grunewald Christ, but he looks like he was a leprous.

[76:49]

He had all these sores and so forth, and completely crippled fingers that hang up there. And people say, oh, this is awful, all this misery. Grunewald painted that for a leper asylum so the people saw themselves hanging up God is with us in our trouble and then on the other side he painted the most wonderful resurrection with all it surrounded by rainbow so colorful and beautiful that's the opposite side when you turn the panel from the other side but we these images is what we need some image can be very helpful this might be a point of because we're talking about this Buddhist Christian and so forth and I still had three short questions here that are

[78:05]

I wasn't able to fit in anywhere. And this one asked, what does it mean to call oneself Catholic in quotation marks? How much of the church teachings do you have to follow? Going to Mass on Sundays? Reconciliation once a year? It's a good and important question. Behind this question is another question, and that is, who is to tell? Who is to tell? And there you have to give the answer before you can ask that question. Who is to tell whether you are a Catholic or not? are you waiting for somebody else to tell it to you, or are you going to decide yourself?

[79:11]

That is the decisive question. And I am not waiting for anybody else to tell. Even if they would excommunicate me, fortunately they don't. Until now. It stops me that I'm no longer a Catholic. I would just say, I'm not an excommunicator. I'm in very good company by that so if you wait for somebody to tell you I don't need to give you the answer you just go to the manuals and pick up the ex-catechism you have made your decision let somebody tell you but if you want to stand on your own two feet you decide and catholic I've said that already, but it bears repetition. In the third century already, Christians asked, what does it mean to be Catholic?

[80:17]

And Tertullian, who was a Roman lawyer, so he had all this little language and who was in and who was out, and he said, Catholic is that which was that faith that was held by all people, by all, he said, at all times and everywhere. The faith that was held by all, always and everywhere. And of course he was only thinking of the Christians in the last 200 years, but nothing prevents us from saying that Catholics all embracing, that's what the word means, is that faith, that trust, that faith, religious faith, that is and was held by all people at all times and in all places. And that widens it very much.

[81:19]

And the so-called Catholic faith is one expression of that. When it is really Catholic. Well, I went to a few of them before I came here in the Catholic Church, and the priest stood up and said, Catholics can't not continue if you're not just talking about it less. And I looked at the first thing around and said, we're all Catholics. Catholic is universal for everyone. That's how he interpreted it. There is this distinction between being Roman Catholic Roman Catholic, in our creed we say, I believe in one Catholic apostolic church. Right. In the small C. So Protestants are also Catholic. Of course. But the distinction is between, I think the question that's being asked of you, if you refer to catechism, is the Roman Catholic Church. Or if you refer to excommunication, that's the Roman Catholic Church.

[82:21]

Yeah? Catholic. Capital R-C-P. Yeah. Even smaller, just apparently, how do you tell the difference, you know? Right. They're very often more Catholic than the Roman Catholic, the high church. But even other denominations, like Lutherans or so forth, they were praying the creed, I believe, Catholic Church, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And sometimes nowadays they change it because the Roman Catholics have kind of, I don't know, patented that name. Trade market. Trade market. Trade market. They change it, but I'm very unhappy for them to change it because I don't know what they say now, the universal church.

[83:25]

But it narrows, it always narrows it. I would like to open it way beyond the Christians to everybody. The Christians, if we are lucky, we have one expression. That's how I would like to see it. Then there's the other question. What about, can you read it with this more? It's just basically what we have to say about the attitude of the church to the feminine. Where can we find, how can we experience the feminine in Christianity? Of course, it's very strong if you look for it. But in the praxis, it's... Women are not considered equal. This is the terrible thing. It's just something that we have to first face and then overcome.

[84:32]

It has nothing to do with the Christian tradition. In the Christian tradition, the first witness of the resurrection, which is pretty central to the good news for all women, And the men did believe it, and the women came, and they were the witness. The only ones that stood under the cross of Christ were women. Men were afraid, the women were afraid. So it's a tradition that the good news in the gospel emphasizes very much to women, and also the womanly aspect of God. When Jesus speaks about the Father, And carefully how he describes that father, this is what we would call a mother, you see. The father, for instance, of the prodigal son, who is an image of God, the first thing, first of all, he sees already the son coming from afar. Our fathers don't have time to look for this wayward son.

[85:36]

The mother stands to the kitchen window and keeps looking. Then he says, oh, look how emaciated you look. We have to cook up a storm. And then you look at your shirt and need a clean shirt and put a clean shirt down in it. All these things. Act like a Jewish mother. And... This reminds me of the story. In that story then, the father makes a big feast for the way where someone comes home and the good brother that didn't run away, that was always at home and was working hard and so forth, comes home from the fields and sees that they have this feast and he asks one of the servants what's going on. And they say, well, your brother has come home and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf and made a big feast for him.

[86:42]

And so he gets very angry and doesn't go in. The father, again, like a mother, comes out and talks to him and says, your brother was dead and now he's alive. You have to make a feast. And this... Part of the story is usually forgotten or overlooked. And the Sunday school teacher asks the children the next week if they can retell the story. And they tell it only to the point where the graveyard son comes home and there's a big feast. And this teacher says, there was another one. Don't you remember there was another one who wasn't happy? All the others were happy and this one wasn't happy? I can't remember anything finally a little girl says maybe the fattened calf that's one very happy one more question that's really for both of us Thich Nhat Hanh has quite recently said the next Buddha will be the Sangha

[87:57]

Paul, how do you relate to that? Well, David, how do you translate that into non-Buddhist terms? It's funny because that came into my mind when I was reading out the questions and letting the Sanda provide the answers. To me, it's how we... how we commune in the Dharma, how we commune in the truth. We don't have to feel like it's all up to me that the wisdom can come from the Sangha. And then it's like this is our collective... Well, this is the shape the circle is the shape and the circle holds the Dharma and in a way the circle is the Buddha mind rather than so and then from that the individual experience is this very mind is Buddha but the source is the Samba

[89:25]

I wouldn't be surprised if Thich Nhat Hanh didn't get that from his contact with Christians, because in the Christian tradition, the presence of Christ is the community. That is the presence of Christ. The real presence, of course that also gets distorted and misunderstood, but in the celebration of the Eucharist, the real presence is the community. Have you seen your brother? Have you seen your sister? Have you seen your dog? We agree. Yes. We agree. And we can send some good energy to him because he needs that. Paul, is there a Dharma talk tonight?

[90:26]

I'm not sure. Originally we planned it, but I didn't. The sign is off. The sign is off. That's it. The Sangha has spoken. The Sangha has spoken. We are going to do another presentation this evening. We do. So I just tried. The sign is off. I was wondering if there was another guest or something. Another which? Like there would be another guest speaker. No, it's us. Oh. It doesn't have your name. Yeah, just as dormant as not. Is there anything particular that would be helpful to bring up the scene? I have just one thought. Because we get them focused on practice, and Paul, because you said that... You know, Zen in particular, that this is not a process, not a cosmology.

[91:28]

Yes. I'm interested to know what practices you've each adopted over time from each other's traditions. Amen. Amen. What processes? I've seen this in some ways that if there are other things that enrich your contact with you too, different practices that are far from one another. Any other questions? Maybe along those lines the word authenticity, what that word means for each of you in your practice of faith. I'd like to hear more about what we were just talking about, community.

[92:30]

Sangha as the next Buddha and how that is in Christianity as well. The value of community. Tom, did you have authenticity in the context of One may call oneself a Buddhist or a Christian, but how do you bring your authentic self forward? Authenticity in the context of a spiritual tradition? Yes. Or are you saying your own personal practice, Tom? Same thing. How can you be as authentic as possible within the tradition you've chosen to practice? Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. I'm curious about each of your thoughts on formal religious organizations.

[93:47]

How they can exist and draw more people in. Or expand to include more people. you know, reference how small the Zen, you know, Stetsuzko Zen Center, reference churches are empty on Sunday, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I have a question. You're asking how can they continue or just questioning the formal organizations? Yeah, I'd like Brother David's thoughts on how formal Christian organized religion can be a greater presence in the world.

[94:55]

Are you asking how to make it more relevant to people? No, not how to make it more relevant, just how you see that Brother David. how you see that Paul I thought you added and draw more people yeah draw more people yeah but saying it's relevant is not is already adding something to that Anything else? Yes. A minor question with not much need of an answer. To a tiny part tying into the question of Jonathan, like for this place next to the practice you do, like the repeated practice, does this community need or are there additional practices in place?

[96:06]

Which are those? Additional practices. in terms of community meetings? Yes. To deal with... Well, at the end, it might be conflict if it's high up. Maybe it's not necessary, but I'm curious because other communities, monasteries might have discovered or just feel the need to add something to it which might include communication. We have quite a few things in place. What was this last one? It was, in addition to the formal practice, are there additional community meetings to address issues? Issues.

[97:08]

Like if there's conflict in the community or if there's some... But this is for you. Well, it was, but... Well, if anything else occurs to you, we will be at dinner. Let us go.

[97:49]

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