This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. Thank you for coming. There's a lot of other things you could be doing this evening here at Tassajara. I think there's a dance down at Pine 3 and wining and dining down on the poolside terrace, cocktails, late cocktails. And probably a little later, you know, some skinny dipping in the moonlight. You may still have time for that. But here you are. And here I am. to talk I don't know whether to warn you or not about you know what I'm going to be talking about tonight but you know you'll find out soon enough so I won't worry about it so I understand that this is the Tassajara Zen Mountain Center

[01:25]

so I've been told I'm sort of you know a little bit curious but we don't have time tonight to talk about where you think you are you know when I first got here on Sunday I guess it was Sunday I felt like I was back at the orphanage Buddhist practice places often make me you know I get the feeling this way around Buddhist practice places we're all the bunch of orphans you know homeless and home leavers and you know we've been taken in here at the temple and there was a very particular time though at the orphanage shortly after my third birthday my mom died and and then a few days later I was at the orphanage my mom wasn't there my dad wasn't there my brother wasn't there and they say that I sat in a little rocker for the first week and didn't play with anyone. So that was one of my first sessions.

[02:29]

I was getting ready to be a Zen teacher. I didn't know it at the time. But the feeling of being three years old and completely lost. So I got here, I felt very small. Who are these people? Are they going to take care of me? Are they going to be nice to me? Do I know any of them? What do they think of me? How will they treat me? It was rather a concern. And the first morning of the clown workshop, I went back to my room and cried for a while because it was so terrifying. And now it sort of feels like home, you know, friends. I mean, I think you're friends, or some of you at least. but some of you may be here on vacation you know some of you may be here to practice then but you may also be experiencing things from earlier in your life you know where am I is this today or is this some other time it's not easy to tell sometimes because as things happen today the past gets we constellated and it feels that we think it's today but we're actually in another time

[03:51]

of our lives. And then we're trying to work things out today that, you know, are ancient history. So this is all very curious. Anyway, I began practice practicing, you know, the real Zen thing. Not when I was three, you know, I did my Sashin. And I had done a sishin before that. When I was first born, I was premature. So I spent several weeks without my mom. So I did, that was my really first sishin, straight out of the womb into the meditation hall. And you just lie there and staring at the ceiling. And then I exchanged the ceiling for the wall. Sit and face the wall. So I've been working at this for a long time, but the formal sense, you know, in 1965 I started sitting, and I think like a lot of people, you know, I thought, well, sit down, sit still, wake up, you know, get enlightened, and then I'll be able to tell other people what to do.

[05:07]

Because, you know, if you're enlightened, you get to tell others what's wrong with them, and they don't get to tell you, because after all, I'm enlightened. You know, I tell you, you don't tell me. I don't know if it still works like this but it seemed to be like this in the 60s and but anyway you sit down sit still and create a quiet sanctuary peaceful place in your mind and then do your best to weed out the negative tendencies only a Suzuki Rishi said you know where you're going to toss them it's ways that you've pulled up that somewhere else curious problem, but anyway, often you don't worry about it, you just keep pulling the weeds, and they keep coming back, but anyway. And then there's, you know, the possibility of sit down, sit still, and quiet your mind. But usually, if you're anything like me, you know, you get so heavy-handed in how you go about quieting.

[06:13]

Shut up! Quiet down. Would you stop that? Why do you have to keep mouthing off like this? What is wrong with you? I don't care if you're unhappy. Just shut up about it. You know, you tell yourself these things, and then it's not very quiet, you know, in your mind. And then you're so heavy-handed about it, there's not much levity for, actually, for liftoff. You know, when you finally quieted your mind, you would expect that there would be some kind of liftoff. Or, you know, expansive something. So after a while it occurred to me like, well, you sit down, you sit still, and then meditation does you. It's beyond your control, it's beyond your doing. And meditation is going to do you, do me, undo you, redo you. and you are no longer in charge. And you thought you'd learn, you know, by meditating you'd have some better management skills for, you know, this pest of a mind that you have.

[07:21]

How are you going to handle it, you know? And let's see if we can get it to behave, kind of spiritually-like. So, um, I was never very good at this, I'm afraid. So, um, Somewhere along the way, you know, I changed strategies. You know, there are Zen sayings that talk about this. You know, I like the one when the wave of the 10,000 things washes over you. What should you do? You've never... I mean, it still comes, you know, even when you're sitting. There's 10,000 things. All the issues of the world and your life and... sensations and thoughts and feelings and what will you do and the Zen teacher said don't try to master them or don't try to manage them you know I I'll just be a manager here and I can manage this situation so that it's the way it should be look good so it began to you know occur to me well I need a new strategy

[08:34]

And maybe instead of trying to get rid of the negative tendencies and the problems and the noise and stuff in my mind, maybe I could learn to sit with them, play with them, work with them. And of course, this is sometimes quite a struggle, right? Because a lot of things don't seem like you could work with them. I remember one time I was sitting and my right knee was hurting. really badly. And it occurred to me, you know, this is an example. I mean, maybe you've come up with better management techniques, but most of us, as new managers, we're not always so good at it. But, you know, my right knee was hurting me, so I thought, if you continue to hurt me like that, I am going to hurt you back. And my right knee went on hurting, so I pushed on it. Okay? You got it? I'm going to make you hurt if you hurt me.

[09:37]

And then it just went right on hurting. So I pushed on it again. I told you I'd hurt you if you hurt me. So I pushed on it some more. And I kept on hurting. So then I thought, this is crazy. So... I think at some point we begin to sense that there's a different way to do this, to work with things, or to see if there's some way to bring out the best in yourself and things and the world and people, people around you. And how are we going to do this? And as I said, it's often a struggle. I think I mentioned maybe earlier this year when I was here, you know, the wonderful poem by the Zen Master Hakuin. He said, the demon outside pushes at the door, the demon inside holds it fast.

[10:43]

Struggling with all their might, sweat pouring from head to toe, they battle on all through the night until at last, in the morning light, laughter fills the air. They were friends from the start. So what about the characters that you have? Usually the most obvious ones are the one who is going to do it right, do it well, do it good. And then there's one who just doesn't seem to understand that that's what's expected. And in fact, seems to have a great time misbehaving, slipping around, ducking around the corners. getting into various kinds of mischief sometimes if you're too good you know your Zen teacher may tell you some of you are so good you might want to study how to be mischievous Suzuki Roshi suggested that at times to people he also said you know some of you are trying to be good Zen students why don't you be yourself I'll get to know you better that way but

[11:58]

This brings us, you see, to the... Oh, so this business with your knees, with my knees, you know, pushing. I thought this is a good example to bring us to the intersection of Zen and clowning. Because that seems like a good example of clowning and something that a clown would do. You know, you push me, I'll push you back. We were doing that this afternoon. You know, we had four people sitting on... mat raised up at some Zabatons and one on the end started pushing and then the others pretty soon are pushing them back and they're saying who can push you off the end it's very funny but when you're sitting meditation it's not very funny and this is but on the other hand it's very funny so this is a question you know are we send students are we clowns you know and you know in Buddhism it said that there are five basic fears you know the fear of losing your life losing your body losing your mind loss of livelihood and the fifth having to get up in front of the assembly and say something and it's a little worrisome that you know when you get up in front of people and say something they might think that you

[13:26]

are a clown. They might somehow have spotted it. Oh well. So I did want to share with you, you know, one of my favorite quotes from Stephen the Vine. I don't know if you're familiar with Stephen, but you know, he worked with dying people for years and then led workshops on death and dying and I went to a number of them. He did a lot of Vipassana and went to India and various things. Very funny person. Very smart. His son Noah Levine now teaches punk zen or whatever it's called. Punk... I don't know. Anyway, it's P-U-N-X or something. Anyway, Stephen used to say... If we all shared our deepest, darkest secrets, we would laugh uproariously at our lack of originality. So I'm going to suggest tonight that our deepest, darkest secrets is that we might actually be a clown.

[14:36]

Not very funny, is it? Pretty scary. But if we all shared the fact that we were clowns, it would be pretty funny. But if you think about it, you know, your life is going by and by. Your mind, can you handle things? Do you have it together? Is it a nice and peaceful place? Does it argue with itself? What's your mind up to? Does it seem like it's really spiritual and serene? Or does it have some stress and issues, problems, difficulties? And what about your body? Any aches and pains? Or is it like a pristine, beautiful body? Clowns don't have pristine, beautiful bodies. They don't seem to have these spiritual minds. Or if they do, the spiritual mind runs into some problems.

[15:43]

And, you know, livelihood, if they find out, you know, you're not going to have a job. And get up in front of the assembly now and try to hide it. Some people are really good at this, you know. They don't seem very clownish, getting up in front of the assembly. You know, they have a good story. But I'm willing to let you know that I'm kind of a clown, you know. and I'm following I've been following this principle for a long time in my life actually that instead of trying to hide it I will show it you know because to clown is when you're bringing out what's inside you know what is what you keep to yourself in meditation you don't dare you know want to share with anybody how completely idiotic you are on the inside while you're meditating and all this stuff that goes on. No, I'm a spiritual person.

[16:44]

No, I'm doing this spiritual thing, you know, and I'm getting better and better at it. Yep. And so mostly people don't want to share what's really going on. It seems embarrassing. It seems shameful. Maybe I'm a clown and maybe everybody will find out that I'm a clown but you know the alternative here is if you're going to be a clown why not be good at it and you know lighten up a little bit and see some humor in things So when I come to Tassahara, I do remember my teachers, Suzuki Roshi and Katagiri Roshi.

[18:06]

Before I tell you about that, I do want to share with you a poem that is something like about becoming good at being a clown. Because becoming good at being a clown has to do with relating very carefully to things and knowing you know things and how things relate and people relate and what is the dynamic of a situation whether it's outside or inside but one way to study this is to study it not just inside yourself but with other people rather than trying to just do it all inside And clowns are very, Letitia's been telling us this week, clowns are very serious about this study. So in some ways, clowns being very serious about this study, they are rather like Zen people.

[19:16]

They might be the real Zen people. The Zen people might be the clowns. The clowns might be the Zen people. We can't be sure. Maybe you can because you know your spiritual practice is so strong and not very funny. But I was reminded when I was thinking about this earlier, you know, I was reminded of the poem by David Budbale called Bugs and the Bold. You know that poem? He said, Hanshan, that great and crazy, wonder-filled poet of a thousand years ago once said, we're all like bugs in a bowl I say that's right crawling around all day walking up climbing up the sides falling back down not getting anywhere going round and round sit in the bottom of the bowl head in your hands feel sorry for yourself or look around walk around say hi how you doing say nice bowl huh

[20:25]

So, you know, if you're at the orphanage, after a while, start saying hello to people. How are you doing? Nice place, huh? Not bad? Okay. So... Suzuki Roshi and Kadagiri Roshi one of the famous sayings for years around Zen Center was they used to say settle the settle the self on the self and Kadagiri Roshi especially would say settle the self on the self this self you know which is the head that tries to manage and run the operation really well and this self that seems to on one hand you know is misbehaving and has a mind of its own and acts out and does things and gets on the loose and comes up with stuff but on the other hand this is reality you settle the self which is in the head on the self which is reality so what is reality you know the way things are you settle the self on the way things are

[21:54]

if things are a clown show well then that's clown if things are you know a spiritual you know practice okay we could aim to do that and you know sometimes people say it's all an endurance test one test after another you see if you can overcome it so we have these views about you know what we're up to and what we're about very curious I want to tell you two stories about with Suzuki Roshi one of them takes a little time to tell you about some of you know that for many years when I was a student here at Tassajara I couldn't sit still you know my body would move And the more I tried to stop it, like if you're in charge, you say, stop it.

[22:59]

Just stop it. Other students would say to me, you just do that to get attention, don't you? And then sometimes I had to sit outside the Zendo. Because I was shaking the whole ton, the whole platform. It was the old Zendo. So I had to sit outside. And this went on for month after month and year after year. And nobody knew what to do. At one point, Suzuki Rishi said to me, if I'd known you were going to do it this long, I never would have let you get started. And it did help a little bit. You know, one of the things that happens, I think it was Baker Rishi said to me, you know, Ed, while we're standing here talking outside the Zendo, you're not shaking. So when you are headed for the Zendo, what happens? have you ever noticed what happens when you start walking towards the meditation now we're going to do some spiritual practice yeah so let's see if we can organize our consciousness to do the spiritual practice thing now I think we need to get a little serious around here because this is meditation is serious it's a serious thing to do to meditate and we want to see if we can do it really well and spiritually

[24:24]

instead of just poorly and kind of, you know, distractedly. So let's see if we can get it together now. And so I noticed how on the way to the meditation hall, started, you know, getting together, you know, how we're going to run the show when we get into the meditation hall. And then I get in the meditation hall. Let me out of here. You know, there's somebody in here like, Scott, let me, no, let me out of here. No, I've got to get out of here. No. I don't want to sit still. Not like that. Not so stiff. But, you know, it's hard to hear this when you're, you know, not listening. And you're just running the show. Just in charge. And it doesn't occur to you for the longest time, for me it took months and years, you know, that maybe... The person running the show was the problem, not the body-mind.

[25:28]

The person running the show was the problem, not the body-mind being controlled, being ordered about. So what do you do? So one day I decided, why don't I just see what happens if I don't try to stop the shaking? Would that, you know, is that okay? I decided I would try this out, so I started sitting and... I started doing big spirals of energy. After a while, Scissor of yours, it came up and said, do kin him. Kinhin is the walking meditation, you know. I thought, well, wait a minute. I'm a Zen student.

[26:32]

I'm not, you know, I'm not here to do kinhin when everybody else is sitting. When you do zazen, you do zazen. When everybody's doing zazen, you do zazen. You don't get up and walk. I said, what? He said, do kinhin. So I got up and did kinhin. Everybody else is sitting there. So then later on I went to see him. I said, Suzuki Rishi, did I do something wrong? You know, I've spent years trying to stop this shaking. And today for the first time, for the first time today, I was trying to see what would happen if I just let the movement. I didn't try to stop it. What would happen? I was trying to find that out. And then as soon as I tried to do that, you told me to get up and walk. So was that the wrong thing to do? And he said, oh, thank you for telling me. It's very important that you find out. Please continue finding out what happens when you don't try to stop it.

[27:34]

So, I don't know, it didn't take long. I didn't, you know, that after a while that energy, you know, moves inside. It finds its, you know, the circuitry, the channels inside. So this is one kind of example of settle the self on the self. Something's happening, see what you can find out about it, rather than just trying to stop it. A lot of the time the more you try to stop it, the more there's resistance, and you have one demon pushing at the door, the other demon holds it fast. They struggle mightily through the night, sweat pouring from head to toe. the other kind of experience you might have settling the self on the self one time I was working in the kitchen and I was as you know in kitchens you can get very stressed especially you know if you're trying to actually have the food ready at a certain time

[28:57]

I once spent three weeks at Karmacholin and in those days when the food was ready they'd hit the bell. So they just shared the stress with everybody in the temple. When's lunch going to be ready? Well, when it's ready they hit the bell. Are you getting stressed? So the people in the kitchen just relaxed. Everybody else got to be uptight about when they're going to eat. So we have the practice of having the stress in the kitchen. Anyway, I was concerned about getting this done and that done, and it's getting towards the end of the meal prep time. Very anxious, and I was in the middle of something and thinking about three different things and what needed to get done next. And then I heard this voice saying, Ed. And it might have been another Ed.

[30:00]

And it sounded like such a wonderful person who Ed was. I turned and she was standing in the door of the kitchen. And everything I had been experiencing just was gone. And... you know, loosely speaking, a radiance, spacious, vast, not a worry in the world. This is our presence, our true being. There may be two demons struggling with each other, but there's also someone who's alive and well and can observe these two and notice them and encourage them to be friends and someone who can show up and see what happens and I think part of what worries us or scares us that we might be clowns is you know that painful things keep happening in our lives we keep having uncomfortable feelings uncomfortable emotions

[31:27]

painful sensations, and it seems to bother us, you know. If I was a more... And maybe there's something inherently defective about me. This is called, you know, shame. Maybe there's something defective about me. And that's why I still have painful experiences. If I wasn't defective, then I wouldn't have these painful experiences. So... again you know the painful experiences that you are able to share with others then you can enjoy often you know some laughter and the ones you hide and keep to yourself are often go on being painful for a long time so it's good to have you know friend people to either clown with or sit with Or, you know, sometimes it's the same people you get to do both with.

[32:29]

Oh, you know, Rumi says this about our stories, stories, the water, body. The body itself is a screen to shield and partially reveal the light that's blazing inside your presence. Settle the self on the self. The Zen teacher Dishan said, realizing the mystery is nothing but breaking through to grasp an ordinary person. If you aim to be something other than ordinary, someone special, someone who doesn't have these problems, somebody who doesn't have this pain, this difficulty in their life, if you aim to be that way, you will struggle. You will be in pain. When you meet it, play with it, work with it, sit with it, act it,

[33:55]

express it, connect it. You have something to share with others and your life grows. And out of that comes your creativity and your joy, your well-being. Because you're not hiding anymore. And when you're able to express your difficulty, your problems, you're also able to you know, voice or creativity or poetry. It's very hard to just have one without the other. The voice that couldn't cry is the voice that can sing. This is not complicated. So I wasn't going to use this, but now that I'm about done with my lecture, I'm remembering the poem that my mother found in the New Yorker magazine a week before she died and wrote it in a letter to my aunt.

[35:14]

And then I got it about, I don't know, 15 or 20 years ago from my aunt by way of my brother. It's the poem called The Little Duck. and the part that's rather nice and the part that's rather fitting for you know people practicing Zen is the last part now we're ready to look at something pretty special it's a duck riding on the waves a hundred feet beyond the surf and he cuddles in the swells he can rest while the Atlantic heaves because he rests in the Atlantic probably he doesn't know how large the ocean is and neither do you but what does he do I ask you he sits down in it he rests in the immediate as though it were infinity which it is that's religion and the little duck has it he doesn't know I like the little duck he doesn't know much but he has religion

[36:26]

So with everything, you know, breathe it in, see if you can find a way to sit in the midst of it, play with it, work with it, bring it into your life and find some way to be with things rather than always trying to get rid of this and clean up that. It's, I think, very useful. You know, you let meditation undo you, let life undo you and redo you. You go beneath the surface, You pop back up again. The wave of the 10,000 things washes over you and you pop back up. You're not always going to be able to surf the wave. Sorry. This doesn't work like that. Even great surfers. All right. Thank you. Have a pleasant evening. Blessings. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[37:29]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[37:39]

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