This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So I'm going to say more about Anna Panasaki. You know, the process of practice is a very interesting one. I think, in many ways, the characteristic, the notion of settling into an unsettledness captures some of the characteristic of practice. In some ways, it has a purposeful linearity. go from suffering and confusion to clarity and happiness.

[01:04]

And you think, well, I'm up for that. Works for me. But sometimes it seems like anything but a straight line. At certain points, it feels like in Zazen, it's very common that while you sit, especially in a longer sitting like you're just swimming in a sea in fact you're not even sure if there's a me that's swimming there's just this sea of experiencing of thoughts and feelings and sensations in the body and even the sense of the body that seems sometimes delightfully unusual and sometimes troublingly unusual Sometimes there are moments of strong, grounded clarity. Sometimes there are moments of a kind of edgy disarray.

[02:18]

In some ways, the emphasis of Anapanasati is on kind of purposeful linearity. Do this, and then when you do this, you can do this, and then when you do that, you can do this. And before you know it, you're enlightened. Just remember, the nature of our human existence is detours. But between here and there, between San Francisco and L.A., I'll just go to Idaho. Or maybe Alaska. So in one way, not to get lost in our detours.

[03:27]

In another way, to discover within our non-linear being, we can sustain this sense of involvement in the Dharma of liberation. Okay, what's happening now? The very practice of sustaining attention in the middle of a non-linear experience but that's that's the nature of directed attention and the nature of receptive attention okay what's happening now okay what's happening now that it's not your taking your human life in all its ways of expressing itself and by some determined effort turning it into a straight line.

[04:41]

It's that in the midst of your human life, sustaining an intentionality. Maybe that's just my excuse to keep working with this teaching. I have to say, I reread some of Buddha Dasa's comments this morning. And I don't know if it's just the mood I'm in today, but I took more exception to his interpretations of many things. I still think it's a valuable book. I think... He unpacks a terse teaching in an interesting way. And then, as I took exception yesterday, if you do look at it, you'll see his notion of piti is that piti is simply a hindrance.

[05:44]

It's like saying, your mind is too active. And I modified it a little to say that that rightness, that curiosity, That capacity to attend and be energized by the experience of the moment. This is also pity. And it has... And even more than just simply tolerate that aspect of our consciousness to actually learn how to use it as an ally. That being mentally curious, of course, you can become... to your own thinking. You can be educated by your own thinking. But you can also use that curiosity, use that mental involvement to bring both the brightness and that kind of spacious curiosity.

[06:47]

Hmm. Look at this. And then sukha. that grinding in the body, that somatic, psychosomatic, settling and releasing that allows the Vedana, the visceral emotions, the visceral feelings to have some, what you might call, fundamental bouquines. Usually when we feel a visceral anxiety, some things fundamentally not okay. Often it's just a mood or a disposition. Maybe it expresses itself in a kind of hyper vigilance. Maybe it expresses itself in a kind of physical or mental restlessness or agitation.

[07:49]

So what I was saying yesterday as we tap into, as we taste something more spacious, and in an interesting way, the capacity to open up to those visceral emotions, the anxiety, fear. Maybe we could add to the list a deep yearning sense of lacking. Maybe we could add to the list a deep sense of loneliness or separation or lack of intimacy. Or you can make up your own list. Sukha and pity. So that these territories I'm somewhat familiar.

[08:57]

What did you miss, Darya? Okay. It's okay. So, in the wonderful linearity of Anapanasati, thoroughly experiencing pity trains himself to experience pity. Thoroughly experiencing sukha, trains himself to experience sukha. Trains himself to experience, to feel, to experientially learn the territory of pity, the territory of sukha. to learn something about it just the way I was taught about it. Oh, PT can be, you know, sometimes we think, okay, well, there's a lot of PT at Starbucks.

[10:06]

You know, if you just drink a good cup of coffee, you go straight down. None of this sore knees, all that other stuff. Go straight past what do you say? offering incense, bowing, chanting Buddha's name. Just have a latte and you've got all the pity you need. It's an interesting notion, you know. There is that aspect of pity which is a stimulant. When it arises in relationship to the yogic skillfulness that allows the, what you might call, the innate pitti to come forth, something of the surround of that process, of that process of sila, skillful engagement, helps bring forth a pitti that's not so self...

[11:18]

not in the service of a self-agenda. Because, of course, anything that arises in our experience can be brought into the service of our self-agenda. You can be deeply concentrated and then just be flooded with a sense of arrogance and competitiveness and all sorts of other things. Or not. So in the experiential learning, how is it initiated? What's it like to experience it? And what's it like to be skillful in relationship to it? And yes, we may have ideas, but remember the experiential learning.

[12:23]

These are not simply experiences that are the product of your ideas and opinions. Your approval of some experience you're having. I'm delighted. I'm making progress in my Zen practice. I've learned the meal chant. I mean, learning can be a wonderful thing to do. But associating with it that it's a tell-tale mark of your progress in Zen is something extra. Okay. Okay with that? I'll go on quickly before you stop me. Thoroughly experiencing. mind conditioner. What I usually call our mental disposition, our state of mind, kittasankara, the formulation of cheap consciousness.

[13:42]

One of the English translations of one of Dogen's phrases is, turn the light, turn the awareness inward. Rather than saying, what's that? Say, what's this? So sometimes noticing the mental disposition helps in that process. And I recommend, time you sit down to do this, I said, notice the mental disposition. in the noticing right away something starts to recalibrate. Oh, my mind's a little bit restless, and I don't like that. I want to do Zazen and be different.

[14:51]

Okay. Understandable. but a little different from the practice of being what is. Which is the hardest, I say. Be what is. What is, is, so be it. You already are it, you know? Original awakening. So attending... to the most emotional, the disposition of mind, not just the emotion, any disposition of mind. Right or dull. Saddled, unsaddled. All in the service of noticing rather than being utterly involved in it. And then if I could say in general, when our awareness is settled enough that there's a palpable direct experiencing, then that's the teacher.

[16:15]

Ideas are not so useful. When the mind's not so settled, sometimes ideas like know that my mind is agitated. Oh, I'm preoccupied by what I'm going to do this afternoon. When the mind's not so saddled, that kind of noting can be useful. When it's more saddled and you just feel the vibration, the contraction, the stimulation, just that. Let that be the connection. Let that be the experience. Yeah? The mind is not settled. Isn't that happening now? I'd say you're unsettled. It's happening now. Yes, that's happening. So that's part of what's happening now.

[17:18]

That's part of what's happening now. But what I was saying, When the mind is unsettled, it's more challenging to just be that. And it's more challenging to make contact. When we say just be that, we mean experience that. So when the mind's unsettled, it's more challenging to just experience that. And what I was saying was, under those conditions, sometimes it's skillful to know it. And that has its own kind of contact that supports fuller contact. That's what I was saying.

[18:21]

Challenging in what? More challenging than when the mind is a little bit more settled. the capacity to experience directly is more available. And in the yoga of making contact with what's happening, it's not to say this is good and that's bad. This is just how it is and bring forth appropriate response. A monk asks, don't shine. What have you learned from 30 years of practice? Appropriate response. Calming the mind conditioner. I breathe in. Calming the mind conditioner.

[19:22]

I breathe out. The theme of is this theme of release, release, release. And in some way, maybe it confirms Gududasa's emphasis on sukha rather than piti. But I would also say that... The deep calming is not sukha. The deep calming is liberation. Because even if you can calm your mind in zazen, and then you get out and go out into the world and have to confront all your attachments and aversions that get stimulated by what come up, just to have sukha doesn't offer...

[20:37]

the Dharma I defined liberation within those agitations and afflictions. So, I think we can also say that the term here is referring to as you see, as you experience the mental disposition. Learn something about not being hooked, not being defined by. Learn something about letting it just be what it is. That form of calming too. And in some ways, I think of it as a more skillful calming, if the calming has some flavor of suppression. And this comes out more.

[21:42]

Actually, in Vopassana technique, it's there to experience whatever arises. But also in Zazen. And also where I'm headed with all this G.G.U. Zalai. The experiencing of the self as the teaching and actualization of awakening. So something about non-reactiveness, something about letting the experience be itself and don't compound it, you know? Take agitation, for example. Okay, experience the agitation.

[22:47]

What's the difference between being agitated and being agitated and frightened, agitated and angry, agitated and depressed, agitated and yearning, or any other association you want to make to it? Can you just stay that close? Can you say, Okay, the mental disposition is agitation. Oh, and look, there's a tendency to become angry. Oh, look, there's a tendency to become frightened and want to and search for some security. So maybe paradoxically, But the calming doesn't come in this technique from the antidote.

[23:51]

Okay, we'll just pour some Sukho over that agitation and it will melt. But rather, experience it. Let it become just what it is. Don't add anything. Don't grasp, don't turn away. What I was saying was, that when the mind is more settled, when the consciousness is more settled, it can all be mediated on the level of non-verbal or non-cognitive experiencing.

[24:54]

Now it is true that agitation makes that a more challenging proposition. Usually the capacity to attend that thoroughly is not so available. And then what I was saying, then there can be skillful Yeah. Yeah. And what I'm saying is sometimes that's skillful and not to forget in a way to let that return to a more thorough experiencing if possible.

[26:09]

To hold literally in mind something like not necessarily verbalized, what is it to experience agitation? You know, if you contrast it to that aspect of Western psychology, we're talking about sort of catharsis of the difficult emotions. There's a cathartic release. experiencing it directly something of the energy that's bound up in that but sometimes it happens through the path process of the somatic you know something in your body lets go and then some accompanying mental state emotions starts to loosen up and become a

[27:14]

more available for experiencing you know the way the way the binding was had come into being by starting the body thought process or the emotional process or the memory was allowed to loosen up and come forth so maybe we could say just by being attentive enough we can purposely direct experiencing in that way. a lot of energy . And whenever I notice that, I'm planning to notice the state of mind.

[28:22]

And then I should just go, OK. I sort of like let go and stop pointing energy into it. But with these additions, like feeling defeated or feeling tired, that that's more like sinking energy. And I'm finding it much more to sort of re-energize. Yeah. More energy towards, you know, it's hard to let go of feeling to take it whenever it's just like the one to do that. You know what I mean? Yes. Finding those two different ways very different. Yes. Two very different appropriate responses. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question, Adam. I have a student who has done a lot of work in recovery. And who's prone to depression? And he said, well, here's what I do. I make a list of all the things I'm grateful for.

[29:23]

Just as a mental process. And then I read it every day. And he said, at the start, my emotional response is, huh. I'm grateful for my health. Ha. You know? I'm grateful that I have a place to live. Ha. I'm grateful for my dog. Hmm. You know? And he said, as he keeps doing it, day after day, almost like despite himself, something starts to lighten up. You know... To me, that says something of these deep-seated mental dispositions that have been formulated within us through a whole variety of causes and reinforcements.

[30:33]

It's not so easy with a snap of your fingers to say, gone. are just sort of like, say, zippity-doo, a wonderful day, on to the next thing. I mean, sometimes we can, but often it's more a matter of steady involvement. And what Anupana Satya said, that in working purposefully with the psychosomatic and getting at the visceral, we can start to literally get in touch with how that's setting the stage, being a basis for those complex states of being, like feeling depressed or feeling defeated.

[31:38]

by meeting the activity of things like wranglers or stuff like that, and then the mental formation, whether it's, you know, basically leaked or not, but having that mental disposition will eventually, what would it eventually send in, or? To me, what that story says, it says other things, too. You know, to me, you could read that list and read it with the same kind of cynical. And it becomes kind of inconsequential activity. Somewhere in his process, somewhere in his whole process of going through recovery, I mean, he's been in recovery a long time, you know, like 15 plus years. And it's important to him. He's learned a lot from it.

[32:42]

He's got a lot from it in terms of sobriety and all the implications of that. So even though he literally didn't feel like it on an emotional level, he trusted it. And even though in a way it's like his heart wasn't in it at the start, He was committed, as best he could be. And I think those ingredients, too. To me, that's why having a strong religious belief, however it might be formulated, can be such a great support. To me, it's the deep sincerity. It's the willingness and capacity to connect deeply. that gives something its potency.

[33:45]

And to me, that list for him represented that. You need a way to put it in religious terms. That was his prayer. And I notice we do that too. We'll make a ritual. around something. And then we do it. Now we have a thousand-page handbook of all the ritual and ceremonies they do in Japan. So we look at it and... And then sometimes we think, oh, that would be interesting to incorporate. And then sometimes we do, and then sometimes we just make up something else. Like at Zen Hospice, over the years, we've made a variety of rituals.

[35:00]

Here's the ritual we have for preparing the body after it dies. Here's the ritual we have for sitting with the body. Here's the ritual we have for when the body leaves the building. We made them up. And I don't say in that kind of any disrespectful or flippant way. I mean, you put it in maybe in a kinder way, we did what arose from our hearts and our deep sincerity to bring well-being to the moment. And I think tuning into ourselves in that way, and tuning into each other, that's a helpful ingredient. And in some ways, this expression of practice, it's like looking at the yoga

[36:05]

of the inner workings. It's not to dismiss what you might call the outer workings, the ceremony, the ritual, the iconography. Iconography in most religions is very important. You figure Shakyamuni said, no iconography. Look around. But we need iconography. Well? I noticed that in the ceremony this morning, Kokyo used the word of weak words, we pray. Yes. And I'm wondering if you would say a little bit about that one. The Eno sent me a copy. It's a translation of what they use in Japan.

[37:08]

He sent me a copy and said, you'll probably want to change this. There was four places that said, we pray. I took a couple of them out. Then later I was thinking, okay, what's another way? In a more technical sense, you might say, what's the non-dual sentiment? The we. We pray to that. And to remember that growing up in a Western tradition where the duality is strong, the good, the bad, the self, the other. And even in Western mysticism, There's all sorts of expressions like, everything is God.

[38:10]

Meister Eckhart comes to mind. Lots of places where he talks about the trees, the birds, the stream, all manifesting God. So the non-dual is there, but the heritage... And maybe it's the nature of what comes up for us when we're distressed. That we're more convinced by our lacking. And that there's a stronger impulse to reach out. Please other. Give me what I don't have. You could get more sophisticated and you could say that's skillful means of the moment.

[39:16]

It's not so much a literal statement as it is a kind of emotional statement. The paradox I hear in that, though, is that Buddhism is really all about relationship. And I think yesterday I talked about that, you know, where, in my opinion, it's always happened in relation. You know, it's never really something solid. I mean, there's something, a relationship, you know, energetic. Yeah. And Eleni, I was right there, because even the story of Shakyamuni's awakening, he goes into deep jhana, And then he relates to the morning star. The morning star, you know, being something other than just this inner refining. And the earth. Yes. And it's a good point.

[40:22]

Yeah. And maybe... the word prayer sticks up for us because many of us find our Christian or Jewish heritage troublesome. And now anything that sort of seems to hint of it, it's amused me at times talking to Tibetan teachers, because obviously they have no Christian background, right? So they have no problems with these words. They have no problem with the word evil, you know. It's like, it's evil. It's for praying, yeah. It's like, where's the problem? Well, wait a minute, we could say, oh, we have a problem.

[41:24]

You don't have a problem. Because you grew up in a different context. So, but I do think, I mean, it's still in my mind to go back over that and try to catch the sentiment and express it in a non-dual way. Yeah. And what's, you know, homage to the professional wisdom, not over here? Exactly. Yes. And you can look at all sorts of examples in the wider Buddhist practice, religion, and you see all sorts of things. You think, wow, that looks like a prayer. That looks like imploring goodness to come down and support me.

[42:26]

Yes. Well, there's kind of the equivalent word in Chinese for prayer. But when we say that, it doesn't have to be like praying to tell out to someone. It's like we wish it would be someone. Right. And also, it could be a part of a man's relationship with the nature of heaven and earth. But it's a whole thing. So if there is something about putting it to somewhat . Sure.

[43:34]

Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah, but we once had Bishop of Kuwait, who's the North American bishop of Pure Land Buddhism, and when he talked about Pure Land practice, and of course he was strongly influenced by Suzuki Roshi, but it had a strong non-dual component, essentially saying, well, There is within our practice some sense of reaching out to weather. But in the service of realizing there is no weather.

[44:34]

Yeah. Like you're saying. And still, I think about, hmm, what would be another way to say it? That we may we may catch that flavor of it, and not just have our mind sort of, you know, agitate a little bit. Huh. Rather, the sentiment of it becomes immediate.

[45:47]

If I could just ask, because, like, going further along the stream, I thought that I mean, in the Western culture, where there's so much emphasis already on the rugged, self-actualizing individual. But in a spiritual practice, something is always a tool to help to open you to your fullest capacity. And instead, it seems to me that in Western culture, we need to be challenged to actually be less self-aware and recognize this kind of really tremendous need for others to let go of control and to be able to be part of a collective, I mean, I'd say in an Eastern cultural context, which is coming out of a stronger communal identity.

[46:51]

So in a way, I think, I wonder, I'm just following along as we're talking about, you know, this idea of, and I understand spiritually, you know, perspective that, you know, when we use language that we're reflecting this form in other English, whatever. But, and not only ever, it is important, but I understand, it's important to also understand how it's supposed to involve it. And how there's a place for, that's maybe an area in our practice that we need. We need to understand that the Western development, you know, in practice, doesn't live over a difference actually means to. but moving away from that Judea Christian, that simplicity of it.

[47:54]

Do you know what I can say? I do know what you're saying, and I think it's a very good point. And my response would be both to affirm your point and to say... think as we're taking up the practice of Buddhism that in broad strokes we're trying to do two things. And one is indeed to stimulate a sense of community. And then the other one is to do a kind of inner work that I think is a healing in relationship to the fragmentation of community and the wounding of isolation.

[49:01]

This seems to me, to me it's very interesting that for us as Western practitioners meditation and mindfulness is almost like maybe not almost like does seem to be for us in adopting Buddhism that's the thing that we're both that seems to be most appealing as an agent of that inner work yes Yeah, so when I say human, that's sort of what... And then... And I think maybe not even without quite realizing and creating community too. That's also an important ingredient for us. And then I think sometimes we're a little confounded because meditation...

[50:10]

can be a singular event. And it's interesting that in China and Japan, it's not a singular event. There's actually a strong emphasis on collective meditation, meditating together. And it's interesting that from the Indian tradition, meditating together seems to be more coincidental that meditating alone is also a very strong element. You know, when I was a monk in Thailand, most of our meditation we did singularly. We sat once or twice a day as a group and then all the rest of the time you went off, find a place to meditate and did it all by yourself. And it was just a matter of making sure you were doing okay. Yeah, I'm not sure how to say it.

[51:28]

I agree. It is true. Okay. Yeah. I understand meditation is a tool to help us to be more awakened to be able to function more fully in the world. I even, you know, sit down for that. I mean, that big decision we made, but it's blissful in the planet, place for, to choose to move out, you know, there are the economy. Yes. Yes. It's okay. It's okay.

[52:32]

It's okay. [...] we are able to cope with our states. We'll be out into some kind of form of relationship. And I think that it's the way that the Western interpretation of Zen has a very strong derivative, which is more of this strong sense of the practice is the Zen is the practice, not the The outcome isn't about so much surface. It's more about achieving some kind of self-optualization. It to me sounds more like a body. Here, you got it.

[53:36]

Certainly in the process, where I'm going with this is like... So we look at something that represents... First of all, we get the basic notion. Suffering awakening. How does that transformation happen? By paying attention to what's going on, seeing how suffering is created, and seeing how to stop. the relatedness, how experience is being related to that creates suffering and brings forth a way of relating that creates both liberation and frees up the energy for happiness. Then seeing that there's a yogic craft. Yes, there is an understanding. There's a yogic craft, and then what I'm seeing is the yogic craft as represented by Anapanasati, which is

[54:46]

you know, one of the primary texts in Buddhism, primary as in early Homeric Buddhism, there's that, and then I'm saying, it's not different from Zazen, that the same thing. And maybe this is my bias, because I went off and became a monk in that Thuraviden tradition. in that terrible limited tradition. Which I hold with fondness and respect. And then, but to me they're not different. Even though I would quibble with, you know, Buddhadasa, you know, that pitti is not necessarily a negative quality or a hindrance. That pitti can actually be a positive quality and an A. And then, you know, even within Anapanasati, first of all, we look at the core.

[56:02]

Then we start to look at mental disposition. How do we skillful with mental disposition? And then we start to look at how does what goes on in our conscious experience, how literally is it a teacher? And I would say this is not any different from Cohen practice. If Cohen practice is simply an intellectual, involvement. It's essentially, well, you can refine your ideas, but that's all you've done. You could say, oh, I have some appreciation of the construct of emptiness, or I have some appreciation of the construct of impermanence.

[57:07]

But to find that directly in how the world is put together by your consciousness, by your experience of consciousness, how to experience that directly and have it illuminate the process of liberation. That's way more than just thinking. And this foundation is a necessary attribute to that. And what I would say is, In some ways, it's just implied in Zen. Well, of course we're doing this. What else will we be doing? And then we add this in. And different teachers, Japanese teachers I've studied with on Khaans, some would say, okay, start immediately with the Khaan. And then others would say, well, you've got a lot of practice to do before we go there.

[58:11]

And then another one said to me, 90% does it. It's more like the con is almost coincidental. So to me, I appreciate how you phrased it and shaped it, and I would agree intellectually. And then I would say, how to actualize, how to realize that has a kind of yogic imperative. You know, that we come at it from a place of experiencing it in lived existence and lived interaction. And so I would say in some ways you could say, well, this Western emphasis are... influenced by these causes and conditions in our society and how we've incorporated that and individuated that, I would agree.

[59:22]

I'd sort of think something similar. And I think it has, I actually think it has its own wisdom, too. I think most of us in the West do need to do inner work. We do need to cultivate something of the non-dual. We do need to discover how to be more capable of being at ease with who we are and more capable of engaging this, what has become enormously complex environment, society, community, some sense of groundedness and when i look when i engage in social engagement to me there's a lot of ungroundedness you know a lot of agitation and pain and distress and even just trying to offer some groundedness

[60:39]

Sometimes it seems like you're a miracle worker. But from Buddhism, it's like, this is just basic. Just try to calm down a little bit. Just try not to be so agitated. When you're successful in it, it's like people think, how'd you do that? It's amazing. Okay. A long way, maybe from... So back to this internal process. Turning the light inward, noticing the state of mind, the disposition of mind. And then the word, then the next step is gladdening, gladden the mind. Gladden?

[61:44]

To make glad? To make glad the mind. Remembering that when it says mind, citta is much bigger than cognitive mind. It's consciousness. The consciousness of being. To gladden. And then the core of gladening is this relief from suffering. When we taste directly something in our own process, when we taste letting go of suffering, there's kind of a relief Maybe not kind of. There is some sense of... Like someone was telling me quite recently I had a fight with their partner.

[63:07]

Actually, they said something to me And I kind of said, that seems a little edgy. And they kind of thought, well, I just had a fight with my partner. And I'm upset. And then I said something. And then it was like something in them changed from a fist to an open hand. and then they made a joke about the process they'd just gone through. Like something gladdened. Something gladdened in their release. Oh yeah, right. That's what we do when we practice, isn't it? We don't just tighten around agitation and turn it into a fist and meet the world with a fist.

[64:14]

Meet the world with an open hand. Something of the relief of remembering. That's why I go through all this weird stuff. So in our meditation, getting in touch with the agitation, the contraction, the struggling, all those extraordinary ways that we bind, that we contract, that we resist. And then what I'm saying is the paradox is you might think, okay, how do I fix it? The paradox is experience it completely for what it is. And in the experiencing, something of original mind realizes itself.

[65:24]

Something of releasing discovers, oh yeah. Grasping is volitional. And there can also be the volition of non-grasping. So in the heart of our practice, this... Sometimes, as I was saying earlier, you can link it to the exhale. Let it go. Let it go. But not fixing something. More just, can you feel the tension of grasping? and release the tension. And remembering that sometimes the paradox is being willing to feel the edginess, the pain of contracting, of binding.

[66:37]

Okay. And on that cheery note... We shall pause for today. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[67:25]

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