This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. So remembering, returning to the process of awareness, returning to noticing, So what I was trying to present yesterday was, first of all, what you might call a Buddhist response to the fundamental human condition. There's a fundamental tendency to want to control in the service, ironically, in the service of making us more satisfied and happy, a wish to control the experience of the moment. but something gets tangled up.

[01:04]

And it seems it works in the opposite direction. A lot of the time it works towards creating more dissatisfaction and more unhappiness. And how to bring an awareness to that so that, quite literally, we can shift it. We can discover that the same process of engaging the moment can become skillful, can become compassionate, can become the product of insight, the product of engaging life in a way that releases our energy and engaging life in a way that not only reduces the suffering, but brings forth a satisfaction.

[02:17]

And then I played a numbers game. And I realized later, I think I was playing the same numbers game that Thich Nhat Hanh was playing in his book, The Heart of Buddhist Understanding. He goes through... two, the three, the four, the five, the six, the seven, the eight. I skipped the two. I wanted to come to that later. So really as we settle into the intensive, to let the way we think about it, the way we relate to it, the expression of our intention to practice. And as we're initiating that, there's going to be a need for a certain amount of discipline.

[03:20]

But hopefully skillful discipline, not some rigid mechanical imposition on the experience. habit energy of our emotions, of our ways of thinking, of our ways of moving, of our ways of relating, will want to assert itself. And it would want to assert itself to a large degree in the context of the world according to me. Now, we might think, okay, well then the solution is, to suppress, maybe even annihilate, that habit energy. But actually, the teaching is to wake up to it, to see it for what it is, and discover that that very same habit energy can be directed in another way.

[04:26]

And that's a whole lot easier than annihilating it. if we annihilate our habit energy, if we annihilate that core impulse to be alive, we do ourselves an enormous disservice. So as we settle in, letting the fundamental proposition of practice register, some curious mix between a well-intentioned idea, a willingness to submit, give over to a scheduled life, a willingness to not simply redefine by our habit energies.

[05:31]

And at the same time, to become genuinely curious about the whole process. And then what happens when you do that? What happens when I do that? Like in those few minutes of sitting, what happened? What was your mental disposition? Were there dominant thoughts? Was there clarity in your thinking? clearly thinking about one thing? Or was there kind of a free form, not so well differentiated image, thought, feeling, stream of consciousness? Genuine curiosity. What's coming up as I start to settle into this intensive? Is there a dominant theme of trying to get it right?

[06:39]

Is there a dominant theme of trying to survive? If you're not used to this environment, or what? Is there a strong tendency to think about the past, the future? So this curiosity with the process. And so that's why I would say the repeated question, what is practice? Why are you here? And what are you supposed to do when you're here? And then how does that look like? How does that express itself in how you act? the priorities you make and how you spend your time, how you're relating to your thinking and your feeling, how you're relating to your body.

[07:47]

And then this notion of continuous practice, can you carry it with you all the time? And there's a delicate point as we start. It's like in some ways, the request of practice can be intimidating, alluring and intimidating. Some self-preservation, literally, preserving the self. As I was mentioning yesterday, the constructs of the self are our best effort at sustaining our life. I would say to you, it's a very helpful thing to remember. This is my best effort at sustaining my life.

[08:53]

This particular habit that I've developed looks rather dysfunctional, inappropriate, but in coming into being, that was part of what was going on. Not to look at the self, you know, if you think, and maybe this is a more Western idea, but maybe it's not, but the notion of good and evil, you know, here's a good thing to do, here's the right thing to do, Here's the wrong thing to do. Here's an evil thing to do. And when you do the good thing, everything goes well. And when you do the wrong thing, the evil thing, everything goes badly. And the good transcend, and the bad plunge. And basic Buddhist teaching is...

[10:03]

Everything, every action comes from the same ground of being. How it's related to causes suffering, how it's related to causes happiness. That's the process we're trying to get in touch with. That's the process we're trying to decipher. And as we enter into that process, how do we align ourselves? How do we attune ourselves? So we can create a structure. We can create a shared commitment. And then within that, some inner alignment. How do I do that?

[11:09]

Is it a matter of translating it into a language, into a phrase, into a disposition that works for me? So the repeated question, what is practice? Really asking, how do you turn it into a phrase, a word? a disposition, an intention that stimulates, that inspires. So in the study period, not so much to gain more facts, but something closer to a way of reading that's described in... Christianity as Lecto Divina, to mix worlds, hearing the Dharma.

[12:20]

Hearing the Dharma in what you read. Can something in you resonate? with the teaching that you're reading? In contrast to, you know, you're just reading, taking in information, gaining knowledge. Can there be a kind of digestion of the proposition that's being presented, that's being articulated? So this is the idea I was trying to present yesterday. And then I went through a series of lists. I thought later, hmm, maybe I just overdid that.

[13:24]

This alignment. there's some conceptual framework to it there's something of a deep feeling like when we're moved by something when we're inspired it's interesting because inspired is a different experience than I should do that inspired is more like Something in me is deeply attracted to that. Something in me becomes more spacious, becomes more enlivened in relationship to that. So as you read, can you read

[14:38]

with this heart-mind. And then to actualize it, to turn it into action, to live. You know, this is Zazen. Both cross-legged Zazen and the Zazen of noticing, engaging, being each moment. Noticing, engaging, being. So, before I launch into what follows that, any questions or comments? changing the energy of our habit energy isn't part of our habits that you can make us who we are our energy humanity so I'm thinking of something that went from Suzuki where they said she spoke

[16:10]

one for a reason that we do all the same thing, is to be an individual? Not quite appropriate, but go ahead anyway. So what happened? How are our allies not our individuals? Well, they are our individual selves. Maybe our habits constitute the largest ingredient in our individual self. There used to be someone who lived here who had served in the Korean War, and he had a rather traumatic experience at one point within a battlefield, And there were a lot of dead soldiers.

[17:14]

And he had to go through this battlefield. And it was out in the open, in a very wide open space. For the rest of his life, he had an aversion to being in wide open spaces. He couldn't go to the park because it was too traumatic. So we have an experience or set of experiences and we create a patterned response which has a relevance and a significance in that experience. But then as it becomes habit and becomes repeated, Golden Gate art is not a battlefield in Korea. So maybe there was something deeply appropriate about that guarded response then.

[18:17]

But it doesn't really apply to go and get part in the same way. So we create a repertoire of habits, and then we simply repeat them. So one aspect is appropriate then not necessarily appropriate now. And then sometimes, sadly, inappropriate now. It doesn't promote our own happiness, security, and well-being. It actually thwarts and limits it. And then the other attribute of habit is its tendency, its propensity to dictate our response. So it wasn't like he went to Golden Gate Park and thought, I think I'm going to reenact some of my trauma.

[19:19]

The energy of habit overrided his wish to enjoy the sunshine and all of this. I mean, he would tell me occasionally, he'd think, oh, I'm going to go to the park, and then he'd have to leave. It was just too painful. It was just too deeply upsetting. So the habit energy, and that's a lot of what we notice when we're sitting. We're sitting with the deep intention, I'm going to be in the moment, meeting it as it is, with beginner's mind. And then what do we do? We meet it with habit energy. I mean, it's sometimes deeply informative when you come into a group. And then as you get to know the group, watch your habit energy play out. This person reminds me of my brother who I like.

[20:23]

Or this person reminds me of my brother who I don't like. And then I attribute it to that personal characteristics that I attribute to my brother. So as we start to see it, we start to see something of the particular of who we are. We start to see something of the patterns. And we start to see something of the human condition. We all do it. We all create patterns. I remember doing a class in Alexander Technique, and the person had us walk backwards. Because when you walk forward, almost invariably, you do it the way you do it.

[21:30]

But you're not so used to walking backwards. So it's new. Unless, of course, you do it several times, and then it becomes, oh, that one again. Beginner's mind, you know? Did I answer your question? Yeah. Coming up in a second, so as you're examined, I don't know. At some point, do they trickle themselves, or do you have some role in it? And this is a little bit where I hope to go today. As I was saying yesterday, you know, the attribute of noticing

[22:39]

It's more like touching rather than grasping. As we notice, we're less inclined to take it as the reality. As you start to see, oh, this person reminds me of my brother, who I had a real hard time with when I was 10 and he was 14 and he kept bullying me. And now I'm attributing to this person the same kind of attributes. He annoys me in the same way my brother annoys me. But the more you see it, the less you're convinced by it. Doesn't mean it goes away, but something starts to shift. And the more you see it and don't go there, and see it and don't go there, capacity for a different response.

[23:42]

What would it be if I just met this person in a more open, present moment way? What if I sat down beside him at dinner and without some kind of tension in me that's already judging him as annoying? So something starts to loosen, open. And a lot of that can start to happen on a cognitive level, and then can start to influence the emotional level, and then there's a deeper work. The more visceral work, the way... And this is why our habit energies can be so utterly tenacious that they become embedded. Like that emotional, psychological pattern can be represented somatically.

[24:59]

That habit energy becomes entwined with what you might call our core emotional dispositions. And from the practice of Buddhist liberation, starting to make contact with our being in an equivalent core way. how we start to make that core really... And then there are other ways, which I'll address in a few minutes. Any other questions? Is it a possibility to be a part of it?

[26:07]

I had to say that even with habit, you should be something, and there's also other being . Yes. I noticed that sometimes I noticed my other you know, making a big something. Uh-huh. So they've pushed me still to go beyond fear. Uh-huh. And then sometimes, you know, I've noticed I've taken a choice of everything, but they've had it. And if it's something like that, it's something like that. Uh-huh. Speaking of fear. It sounds a little bit like you're asking two questions.

[27:36]

One question is around the appropriateness of what we might call a wholesome habit. And then the other question is about going beyond any kind of habit. And I would say they both have their place in practice. Certainly there is a pragmatic usefulness replacing unhealthy, unwholesome habits with healthy habits. And then there is an appropriateness in going beyond any habit. And that's... Let's say within a practice routine or a practice setup, the notion that we create a schedule, an environment, a way of relating to each other that's conducive to mindfulness.

[28:52]

We create that container and we, in a way, habituate on it. your body becomes used to getting up in the morning and going to the zendo and meditating. And that serves a way of creating the environment and the opportunity for a more spontaneous response. We create a patterned way of doing aureoki. Which made me realize this morning came time to do a certain part of the chen, put my hand up, and habitually went to the previous version of the chen, which we haven't done for 10 years. Somehow in that moment, that's what came out of my mind, you know?

[29:59]

So, I would say, we create the container, The structure of our yoga helps us to stay present. And then can we go beyond? Because then the habit can become a disservice. It's like you learn to drive and your body has the habit of driving. But then you can ruminate in your thinking while you drive. Well, the word that you look at Buddhism is kusala and akusala, wholesome and unwholesome.

[31:02]

No? Some habits are unholdsome. Taking heroin can become a very strong habit. And you could say, well, can't you be aware of it when you take it and stay mindful? And theoretically, I've never taken heroin, so I don't really know. From what I've heard about it and what I've read, such is the nature of that habit and what it creates in the body and mind, that it's very, very difficult to stay aware and grounded and open. So certain habits are unholdsome. So there's a certain pragmatism. Working with who we are, working with the environment we're living in, and that's the schedule, the skillfulness of the schedule. and how we're behaving together, you know, hopefully creates a container conducive with practice.

[32:16]

What was that? They're not really the same as what a psychologist does. I would answer the question a little bit by avoiding it, and I would say that the field of Western psychology is developing. You know, in some ways, if you start with Freud, about 150 years old, less, when did Freud live? Hmm? 1930s? 1900. Is that when he started the practice? I thought it was a little before that. Yeah.

[33:21]

Well, somewhere around that. So we're talking 100, 120, 130 years. And then Buddhist relating to the human condition has been developing for 2,500 years. It had some fundamental differences in... It's objective. It's way of relating. But they're both, you could say, in a way, trying to enable our happiness, our freedom, and release us from our suffering. I'm not quite sure how you phrased the question, but... Maybe you should remind me. Well, I was trying to see what it would be.

[34:24]

I mean, this is . In fact, people have been practicing in some of the mindful traditions . But I don't use the practice of all of this practice to fix it up yourself, so you might be functional at the process. Which is what I thought the psychosis guys did. Well, I think it depends upon the field of psychology. I think they come at it in different approaches. But I think in very broad strokes, it's something similar. If you think back to the Freudian notion that because of causes and conditions, we've habituated on certain neuroses, and they restrict us and suppress us. And then can those neuroses be released?

[35:27]

And one way to think about it is, our suffering takes a lot of energy. And as we release our suffering, that energy is released. I don't know if you... I can remember I was in the mission once and I saw someone sitting and I thought he had hurt himself. And so I went over to him and he seemed to be caught in a psychotic state. He seemed quite dissociated from this conventional reality. There seemed to be enormous pain and fear. He couldn't communicate. So this enormous restriction and constriction in his being. And just to think, well, if those afflictions are alleviated, then he could have the capacity to behave in a certain way.

[36:45]

He could have the capacity for mental clarity. communication. So in a way, as we release the suffering and the energy bind up in it, then it's available for other things. But certainly the methodology of our practice is not so much... I know the goal that I want to attain and more paying close attention to the nature of what is and discovering a process. In a way, our trust and our allegiance and our energy is in the process, not so much directed by

[37:50]

particular outcome. And that's a significant notion, especially in Zen, you know. Maybe in other forms of Buddhism you could say, well isn't there there, you know, sometimes you see it says, it's all in the service of having a good death, or creating the merit for a good rebirth. But Zen is really focused on the process of suffering liberation. Awakening, staying in clouded confusion. And that's why I would say to you, as much as possible as we settle into the intensive, to bring yourself back to the process. Become involved in it, engaged in it. This is... helpful initiation and then what it gives a rise to and this is what I like to talk about today it's like the world according to me you know we start to notice my thoughts my preoccupations my habit energies the things from the past that take my attention

[39:18]

the projections into the future, the anticipations that create their own urgency, their own importance. In contrast to, as we start to stay present, and here I am, standing here, aware of my hands, Hearing, feeling my body in this fluid existence. Constructing a notion of being in a room, giving a class. And with some sense that I'm contributing to making this all up. And so there's a way in which that is in contrast to my world, you know?

[40:31]

Me, this fixed entity called me, this fixed permanent existence called my life, my world, that's supported and carried along by these habits of behavior, these habits of interaction, these emotional, mental habits. So within this solidity of the world according to me, we could call this the world of form. And then interestingly, it's not a singularity. We have a shared world according to me. You're all acting like I'm giving a class. Collectively, we've convinced ourselves we're doing an intensive.

[41:33]

So it's singular, and it can also be collective. And then as each of us pays closer attention, we see the fluidity. And then the term in Buddhism there is shunyata. Sometimes translated as emptiness, but a better translation is Thich Nhat Hanh's, which he uses interbeing. But even more, shunyata has three characteristics. It's impermanent. It's always shifting. It's always moving from this to this to this. It's interactive. The experience of the moment is the consequence of different factors.

[42:44]

Someone smiles at you and you feel good. Someone frowns at you and you feel upset, aggressive, however you respond to a frown. And it's relational. Each moment, each experience has a context. The daughter creates the mother. The mother creates the daughter. They need each other to be mother and daughter. There's no daughter independent, self-existent. Daughter needs mother. And vice versa. Mother means daughter.

[43:52]

It could be mother. Identity within existence is relational. It's not independent. And sometimes that's called no-self. Really it means that the self is a notion that arises in relation to something else. And as such is construct. And this is... So our habit energies come into being in that constructed world. And within that constructed world, they have their relevance. They have their significance. They have their function and their dysfunction. And then within that functional world, within that fixed world,

[44:55]

we have what I was calling pragmatic responses. How do we behave and respond skillfully to that fixed world? You see something about yourself and then you think, okay, what would it be to be skillful with that? And then, as we settle, like when we settle into Zaza, and we see the ideas, the images, the emotions coming up, going away. We see the mind grasping them, noticing, letting go, coming back to a rising presence. Something comes up into being, something falls away.

[45:58]

In that more fluid state, there's nothing to fix. The habit energies are not creating such a solid existence, but then we need a solid strategy to fix it. And this is where trusting the process comes in. The process of awareness draws us into relationship, into experiencing this more fluid way of being. There's a famous Czech theorist, whose name I can't pronounce, who did all this research on what he called being in the flow. Anyone know his name?

[47:05]

Yeah, it's a long check name. Yes. Yes. Something like improv, if you've ever done improv. It's not habitual. It's not scripted. It's not prescribed. It's about giving over and being part of the experience of the moment. From a habitual point of view, no. I've got my habits, I've got my way of being me, and I'm sticking with it. From the point of view of shunyata, This is the nature of being. Flow with it. Be part of it. Dance with it.

[48:09]

Let the energy of it be unbounded. And then this beautiful phrase that Suzuki Roshi made, wove into the core of his teaching. Beginner's mind. situation with a freshness, with an originality. This, in a way, is close to the heart of Zazen. Meet each moment with this kind of freshness. That's why I would say notice it. It's not about constructing a particular response. It's about flowing with the experience that's happening. This is the challenge of the Zen. And then as we engage it, as we settle into the intensive, we can start to notice.

[49:21]

There's the world according to me, and there's this, flowing, spontaneous, momentary existence. And then not to create good and evil. Okay, good is flowing, spontaneous existence. Evil is habitual fixed me. Then you can go to time with all your personal self-criticisms, negative images, and all that. No, it's more, how do these two move in harmony? How do these two relate? The story is that the sixth ancestor

[50:27]

when he was eight years old, was outside the monastery, and they were chanting the Heart Sutra. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue. And he turned to his teacher and said, but I have eyes, I have ears, I have a nose. But there is a self. There is this collection of ways of thinking and being that come that prevail with a certain persistence. There is a me, and there's a no me. There is an habituated, structured existence, and there's the fluidity of momentary existence. And how do they dance together? Sandokai. You know, the classic Soto Zen teaching, or Zen teaching. How did these two dance together?

[51:31]

So what I'm trying to say is not to set them up in opposition. The self is persistent. Continually arises and arises and arises. That's just the nature of it. When we sit down, what happens? Me. That's how it is. It may be a very subtle me, just a sense of space and place. Or it may be an utterly blatant me. I'm just absolutely caught up in the drama of... some past event, and I'm oblivious to here and now as I reenact that drama. Noticing, you know?

[52:44]

You know, yesterday I was talking about the four foundations of mindfulness. The foundation of the body and the breath, the foundation of Vedana, basic... visceral feeling. The foundation of mind, the construct, the disposition of mind. And then I said mind contact, contents. But there's an interesting detail in relationship to that in the four foundations of mindfulness. Mind content as the teacher of what is. So the self arises and the self becomes the teacher. So rather than the self as this affliction, this original sin, it's more, this is the teaching of the nature of what is.

[53:47]

How do we learn how not to grasp? By seeing what's grasped. By seeing grasping. So noticing a certain kind of approach, a certain way of making contact. Not about controlling, not about indulging. And then engaging. Engaging not to create a certain outcome. Engaging to discover what's happening now. What's this? Let it teach me who I am. I have all sorts of ideas about who I am, but here's an opportunity to discover directly now.

[54:52]

And something of original mind, original heart mind, original being arising originating here. Something unfolding. If you think back to Freud's early teachings where he was trying to talk about this being available in an open, unprejudiced way for what arises. Very similar to the notion of Zazen. With free association, yeah. And of course he said what he didn't have was a structure in which to support that activity, you know, which Buddhism offers.

[55:54]

So this notion, form, and emptiness, form and shunyata, and the two together. So as you keep reminding yourself to notice, notice what's happening. Open to it. Experience it. That's what I would suggest to you. Notice, open, experience. When it's defined by habitual ways of thinking and feeling and behaving, it stays solid. As we start to open to it, something starts to be revealed. We start to see the self of now. We start to see the expression of habituated being

[57:09]

as it plays out now, strongly, weakly. As we continue to practice, there are moments where we're just flowing. You're walking with the pot and the zendo, and it's just about the feeling of your feet, the movement of your body, the light coming in the window. the more anxious thoughts. Am I doing this right? Are people looking at me? What's going to happen when I get where I'm going? They start to dissolve, and it's just this flow of experiencing. And not even to say, that's the goal. That's when you're doing it right, and when you're in your thoughts and feelings, you're doing it wrong.

[58:12]

They're manifestations of existence. They're both teachers. When we drop it, it offers us a counterpoint. It offers us an illumination of what it is when we're bringing forth our habit energy. When we bring forth our habit energy and its constructs, teaches us something about conditioned existence. It teaches us something about the person we are and what that person does and what that person feels and thinks. It's a very important teaching. And it teaches us something about the nature of human existence. You're not the only one doing it. We're all doing it. And that's an amazing thought. I'm doing me and everybody else is doing them. How do we ever manage to communicate at all?

[59:17]

The answer is most of the time with difficulty. This is how it is for me. Surely it's got to be how it is for you. a willingness to let both arise when they arise. And this constant coming back with patience. And watching... You know, sometimes as we start to release, we suddenly move into intense contraction.

[60:32]

You're feeling very spacious and open. You're serving breakfast with this kind of flow. And then you go upstairs, someone says something to you, and you're in a rage. We're open, we've taken the experience with more energy and intensity, and we have a more intense and energetic response. So don't be surprised if you seem to both be becoming more open and more contracted at the same time. Yeah. I was going to ask, I like your question here, because you were thinking of these forms, so someone looking at it without this discussion, you might see that as a depiction that you're talking about.

[61:44]

But you brought up this really interesting point because I'm not a resident here so while I'm here, I'm able to discover these containers of oil and some of them. If I get home at 9.15, people are like falling away and busy. I feel in that exercise that you're describing, I didn't go to bed and exactly that. So I guess the comment is, how do we look for, how do we become more aware of these potential containers that we use to teach ourselves more? That'll get better. Yeah, that's a great question, and a very important one. Sometimes it's about the container, and sometimes it's about the willingness to breathe free form.

[62:58]

Okay, I'm going to come home. I have no idea what's going to happen. I have no idea what's going to be going on there. That will be the moment it is. And I will have the response I have. I will be utterly disapproving. I'll be delighted. I will be anxious. Can I stay inside something to preserve the dedication and momentum of what I'm doing? And how they're complementary. To put it another way, you could say sometimes the external, the context, the environment creates the support. Sometimes the internal, the balance, the staying connected to who you are, the not being pulled out of yourself by someone else's experience.

[64:06]

OK, you're angry, so I have to be angry. No? You're angry. I can see your anger. I can relate to it with compassion. I don't have to own it. I don't have to own your world. I don't have to become part of your world. I can relate to it without being pulled into it as the world. So both of those, I would say, a willingness to participate in the world, and a groundedness in the process of participation. That's what we're looking at. And when we start to look at some Zen koans, we'll see, oh, this is a lot of what they're talking about. How do you discover something fundamental, especially in sitting Zazen, and then how do you carry it into action? How do you learn something in a structured container and then how do you carry it out into any and every experience that you have?

[65:22]

Something about learning. What am I entering when I enter my home? Who am I meeting? I have all my habit energy as to who that is and what that is, but what is it now? And something in that meeting enlivens and supports. And then sometimes we miss it. You know, that too. Okay. It's just like Sazen, you know, your mind wanders and you just, oh, okay. You come back. Um, I would like to see the fact that even the symbol of the

[66:42]

So what I'm trying to do in these first couple of classes is set the stage. This is the broad proposition. Okay, I mean, we could spend the whole rest of the intensive talking about nothing but how to practice with your body and your breath. There's a whole lot going on. Practicing with your body is bottomless. There's all this practicing with... constructs of mind.

[67:47]

Like if you look at one of the books on the reserve is Thich Nhat Hanh's version of Vasu Banzhu's 30 verses. Looking at the nature of consciousness and how it comes into being and how it can be related to in the process of liberation. There's just so many things once we get into particulars. But whatever direction we go, to not lose the big picture, this is about waking up. It's not becoming an expert on Vasubandhu's 30 verses or Thich Nhat Hanh's commentary on Vasubandhu's 30 verses. It's not about becoming the perfect Hatha Yogi. It's not about excelling at how to do orioki.

[68:57]

They're all valuable and can contribute to the process of awakening. The process of awakening is what's fundamental. And in Zen Buddhism, just to tie it in, that's often... encapsulated and represented by the phrase, what is Buddha? So if you read all these Zen stories and Zen koans, students going to teachers and teachers asking students, what is Buddha? What is it we're doing? What is the fundamental proposition? What is it to wake up and liberate? And then condensed into one phrase, what is Buddha? The answer is the answer of the moment. Sometimes it points at the particular, the fountain and the courtyard.

[69:59]

It's that particular. Sometimes it's pointing beyond any particular. No Buddha, no practice. then how do we take either of those answers and live it? How do you conduct yourself in a way that keeps you aware of what's in front of you, the physical reality of here and now? How do you conduct yourself in a way It keeps you close to the flow of experiencing. That it's all just fluid. There is nothing solid in it.

[71:03]

And then one last thing about Dokusen. Something about interaction. we speak our truth, and we hear ourselves say what we say. Is it a well-rehearsed story that I always tell myself? Is it what comes up in the moment? There's something valuable in just hearing yourself say what you said. This is what I'm choosing to say. And then the other person says what they said.

[72:12]

This is their version or this is their response to what we present. Something in the interaction clarifying, expressing the moment. And that can be as pragmatic, indefinite, as coming and saying, well, you know, I have this pain in my right leg. Got any clues as to how to practice with it? Or that can be as free form as you come in and sit down and in the energy of the moment, just say what you say. In our style, all those and everything in between is possible.

[73:20]

And it's something about trusting yourself, trusting yourself to speak your own truth, to be who you are and let that come forth. So I have asked Lucy to... ask you to come to Dokusan. And that's, there's no great agenda to it other than the agenda of liberation. That's all. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[74:33]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[74:48]

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