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Harmony in Light and Shadow

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Talk by Ryushin Paul Haller at City Center on 2020-10-12

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The talk revolves around the interplay of generosity, solemnity, and interconnectedness during challenging times, particularly highlighted through annual events at the San Francisco Zen Center. The speaker uses anecdotes from a Christmas party for children and an interfaith ceremony for homeless deaths to explore themes from the Zen chant "Sandokai," emphasizing the reconciliation of light and darkness as a metaphor for understanding life's complexity. Additionally, the talk reflects on the impacts of COVID-19, societal roles, and identity, urging the integration of being and doing, as informed by Zen practice.

  • "Sandokai": A Zen chant shedding light on the merging of opposites, such as light and darkness, used in the talk to illustrate life's dual nature.
  • Mettā Sutta: Referenced in a ceremony, this Buddhist discourse emphasizes loving-kindness and compassion, reflecting the interconnectedness addressed during the talk.
  • COVID-19 Pandemic: Discussed in terms of loss and the pandemic's impact on social identity and roles, illustrating broader societal upheavals.
  • Anna Świrszczyńska's Poem: Used to highlight the inner resilience and light amidst external challenges, paralleling the themes of interbeing and compassion.

AI Suggested Title: Harmony in Light and Shadow

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Transcript: 

good morning good afternoon good evening i'd like to start this morning's our today's talk with two anecdotes that have been an annual part of my life here at San Francisco Zen Center, with the exception of the last couple of years. So the first one is about an annual children's party we do here. Is the sound okay? Yeah, good. Each year we do an annual Christmas party for the children who live two blocks down Page Street in a shelter.

[01:13]

It's for families. And we host them around this time of year. And there's a Santa Claus and the children will receive presents. And that's run by That's his role. So many years ago, that was my role. And then one year, when I was in this role and I was arranging a party, the organization, that's the parent organization for the homeless shelter down the street, there's about 20 families there. They said, well, actually, we have five centers. Could you do a Christmas party for all of them? And I said, okay. And then they called me back and they said, well, you know, some of the children at the shelters have friends that they'd like to bring along to other children.

[02:18]

And so what had been a few years before, what had been a party for about six, eight, 10 children grew into a party. for 200 children. And here's the delightful and amazing truth of it all, details of it all. So then I needed a place for 200 kids. And then I thought, well, you know, kids can't stand in line for a long time. They're kids. a long time for them is an eternity. So instead of one Santa, we need 10 Santas. And of course, we need gifts for 200 now instead of eight. And everywhere I turned and everyone I asked,

[03:30]

The magical phrase was, I'm hosting a party for homeless children. And that magical phrase opened doors, opened hearts, created, you know, generosity, created almost as if people were delighted to be generous. To be grateful. In San Francisco, there is a tradition. The firemen collect toys for children at Christmas. And like one or two nights before we were having the party, they took me to a warehouse. And in the warehouse, there was a mountain of toys. And they said, take whatever you want. And of course, by that point, we'd organized a list.

[04:36]

Let me tell you, it's quite a thing to find out the age, the gender of the child, and then find the suitable toy. But we did. And we asked people if they'd volunteer to be Santa. And they just said, of course. What else can I do? We asked people to wrap the presents, label them, sort them out into boys and girls of different ages. And they did. We asked local market for snacks, you know, drinks and other snacks for the children. They came with abundance. So what seemed improbable, and maybe at any other time of the year, or for any other cause, it would have been improbable, you know, that in five days you can put together an event in which 200 children are going to receive a rapt present.

[05:57]

And I was reminded of this this year when Jeffrey, who now has that role, was making an announcement and saying, well, we have a list of children, and if you would like to donate a toy, come see me. And before the end of the day, he sent an email out to everyone saying, okay, everything's taken care of. All the children have been assigned someone to buy them a toy. Okay, that's the first story. Second story is, so every year at the back of City Hall in San Francisco on the solstice, about 5.30, 6.30 in the evening, there's a ceremony, an interfaith ceremony.

[07:03]

Maybe there's like six or eight different faiths represented. And it's bearing witness on the homeless people who've died in San Francisco in that year. And usually it's about 160 people. It's remarkably consistent. I don't know why. And usually maybe How about 30 of them? Nobody actually knows their name. And so we'd call them John Doe and Mary Doe. And so when we'd come to, and then we'd break up in each faith tradition, we'd offer a representation of their tradition, their spirituality.

[08:09]

And in the Zen tradition, we chant the Mata Sutta, Sutta of loving-kindness. And then you read out 10 or 20 names and then you pass on to the next person. And we stand there in the candlelight. Most times, being that time of year, it's cold. We stand there and each year it has almost a stunning solemnity to it. This is our city. This is what happens on the streets.

[09:13]

When I go home to my place, get into bed and put up the blankets and sleep. Other people don't. Other people don't even wake up the next morning. So I offer you both these stories of this time of year. Not in any way to draw conclusions or judgments about the society of San Francisco or the society of the world, you know. More to say how complex and multifaceted our lives are. It seems to me, in a strange way, as I was reflecting on this, actually I was reflecting on a piece from, there's a chant that we do in the Zen tradition.

[10:26]

It's called, in Japanese, it's called sandokai. And really, the literal translation would be many, one, into being. And how this is the nature of our life. All these things happen. All these beautiful things. I remember so fondly, it's quite a few years ago, that Christmas party. It was magical. It was like the impossible was just the easiest thing to do. because there was such generosity in the air, in the hearts of everyone we met. And the solemnity of bearing witness on homeless deaths.

[11:40]

How do we reconcile with that? The piece in the Sandokai that came to mind, it says, right in light, there is darkness, but don't relate to it separate from the light. And right in darkness, there is light, but don't just see it as light. the interplay of these two ways of being. And thinking about this year, this extraordinary year, not that every year is not extraordinary, it is. But this one seems to have presented us in this extraordinary global way.

[12:49]

something we'd never heard of, came into being and affected every one of our lives. COVID virus 19. You know, in pastoral care, there are considered to be one of the teachings of pastoral care is that there's five kinds of losses. And in a way, this virus has brought all of them into being, maybe for every single one of us, one way or another. So the first one, the first kind of loss is relatedness. You think about it, this way where our lives are interwoven with others' lives, our social gathering. our ways of connecting and how they have been compromised.

[14:00]

So we've had this loss. And the second loss is how our roles have been impacted. Each of us has certain roles. even as a parent or a child, you know? And now you can't be together. Or you had your role of how you, what you do for a living, you know? Whether you were a student or work in an office, also these things are compromised. And then certain ways in which you, certain activities, certain functions, that are usually a part of your life also probably have been disrupted.

[15:08]

And then the physicality of your life. Oh, I would go this time of year, I would go here and I would do this. Well, this year may well be, you can't go there. that there are restrictions to where you can be and how you can be and then the last one is our sense of self you know when you start to take apart our roles our activities what we can do and what we can't do how we can be in relationship with other, when you start to take all that apart, your sense of self is compromised.

[16:09]

Or maybe it's more realistic to say, can be compromised. So that came into our lives. And what stories we could tell each other about how that's been for us. Just the group of people listening now. And how in a way, what an amazing thing that we have, we now have this commonality. So we had the pandemic, we had the resultant economic impact. We had the limitations on our lifestyle. Many of us, maybe most of us. And then in the background, we have climate change.

[17:19]

And then more recently, in the United States, we've had a an election process that has been, maybe it's fair enough to say, odd. But seemingly, from one perspective, if you just do the arithmetic, it seems like it was conclusive. If you look at maneuvering and the intriguing way, there's all sorts of stories, whether you want to call them stories or conspiracy theories, tick-pick. And then in the rhythm of the United States, what do we do?

[18:22]

We have Thanksgiving. we have a celebration of gratitude. Maybe there's a deep wisdom within us that says, as we head into the darkness, let's carry something with us. Let's carry something of the light. Maybe in this way, the spiritual light. As we head into these difficulties, let's carry something of a light with us. So we give thanks. And then in this season, whether we relate to it, from a spiritual identity, a Christian, a Jew or any other faith tradition, we have a way of acknowledging and celebrating, holding up that which is precious.

[19:40]

When I was doing that Christmas party, one of the things that struck me was it's almost like People were relieved to have the opportunity to be unequivocally kind and generous. It was like it was a relief for them. Ah, here's a simple, unqualified way, taking care of children, giving them happiness. This rhythm of our life. And this rhythm of our life, whether we're talking about sitting zazen in a formal way, or whether we're talking in very broad strokes, which I've been trying to do, about who we are as a society, or even

[20:52]

as an individual or within our cultural identity. There's a combination of doing and being. All these things have happened in this year. And we did our responses. We perceived them a certain way, we thought up a way of relating to that, and we enacted it, you know? Whether it was just staying home and watching more Netflix, you know, or whether it was, you know, I spent the first five months of the year, not quite by design, in a monastery where We were blissfully separate from all the restrictions that were happening outside.

[21:58]

We didn't need to socially distance. Doing and being. If you think in Zazen, we sit down to be, to be Zazen. To be the body, be the breath, be the thoughts. be the feelings, be the sound. And in the midst of that being, as we're endeavoring to let that invite us into the depth of being, the doing, of our being, of who and what we are as a person, asserts itself. The mind starts to think.

[23:00]

The mind conjures up a true reality. And if it's allowed to continue in that regard, starts to do. Whether we just have a narrative in our head, whether we start to plan, whether we start to emote, whether we start to remember or anticipate, the impulse to do asserts itself. So in Zazen, to discover the being in the midst of doing and to let the being illuminate the doing. This is what that sutra I mentioned, the sandukai, this is in the merging.

[24:07]

Can we carry our doing in a way, can we engage our doing in a way that's informed by our being? When I think of those stories that I mentioned, to me, the common ground of both of them is were generous because they cared. They offered space, they offered toys, they offered food because they cared. People showed up at the back of City Hall because they cared. Because even though it's unsettling, part of what we are.

[25:17]

And if we excluded, we're excluding part of ourselves. And we intervene singularly and collectively when we exclude some part of ourselves. integrating and harmonizing of being is disrupted. And of course you can look at our history. This is seemingly is what we've constantly done. We've constantly created us and them. And we've acted on that. So the admonition the sangdukai. And I would say the admonition of our own caring is asking us to mediate our doing with our being.

[26:32]

If you think of doing and you think of, well, we do something to have a certain outcome. But we do something with a certain outcome from a certain notion of what reality is, from a certain notion of what is important to have happen and what is important to not have happen. As human beings, we will infuse what we want to have happen with desire. we will infuse what we don't want to have happen with the version. And if it just stays fueled by our desire and our version, if it just stays fueled by our rigid thinking, it goes in a strange way.

[27:39]

Then us and them and then us acting in our best interest and ensuring they are not able to interrupt us, it becomes utterly plausible. Of course, that makes sense. That is what we should do. They are not us. They will not ensure the enactment of our desires, and our versions. And of course, we can do that within ourselves, all by ourselves. We don't need anyone else to prompt. And the Sandhukay says, yes, there is a constructed world. That's what it is to be alive.

[28:44]

Yes, of course, we construct versions of reality. And we can watch ourselves when we vote or an election comes, take sides, have a preference. And when a whole variety of stories and perspectives arise, we can watch ourselves believe or disbelieve I've been fascinated in reading articles that analyze conspiracy theories and how they're believed. And honestly, I find it very informative. I can read something and I could think, that's absurd. That's ridiculous.

[29:47]

That's so ridiculous, it's funny. And then I keep reading the article and it says, and this percentage of the population totally believes this, goes out into the streets with signposts, you know, holding up placards saying, this is true. The point I'm trying to make is to say that our impulses in the world of doing, they need our being. They need something in us to sort of introduce what we might call the nourishing factors of our interbeing.

[30:49]

this way in which when we give, you know, we may give a material thing or a beneficial action, but actually we give something of ourself. We give over to interbeing. And usually when we give in that way, we feel enriched. And more interestingly, when we get in that way, something in us, I would say, and this is my experience, is nurtured. And that when we do that together, we nurture each other. And I think in a way, we reassure each other.

[32:01]

There is goodness in the world. We're capable of it. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, that we human beings are capable. And is there a way that with all these challenges, the pandemics, the bifurcation of our political system, in the United States now, it looks like the very notion of democracy is being called into question. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. Can we have as a touchstone the sensibility of being touches a shared humanity.

[33:02]

Can we remind ourselves, even inside myself, there's a variety of beliefs and a variety of agendas and a variety of opinions and behaviors. Why would I expect a uniformity in our society? Or why would I expect even a uniformity within my close friends? How do we infuse our doing with being? And in a way, this is how we discover what we might call right effort in Zazen. And this is how that, yes, there is a purposefulness in Zazen.

[34:12]

Purposefulness is be present. Don't just swirl around in random thoughts and feelings in enchanted by your own dreamlike. consciousness be present in the here and now. And then in our doing, you know, how do we do in a way that upholds being? Sometimes in Zen, I think of it as part of the Taoist influence. way the journey is what's important not the destination how things are engaged not the icon is important and then when we take that and we apply it to our life we find oh

[35:24]

When I grow grocery shopping and I decide halfway to the grocery store, I'll walk in the park because the journey is what's important and being what's important. I'm not going to have anything to eat. There'll be no groceries to take home. But when I'm at the grocery store, can I remember not to elbow people out of the way? So I get to the top of the line first. Can I be present for the activity? This blend. This commonality of existence. It goes below. you know, whatever city you live in, whatever country you live in, which goes below whatever your political identity is, you know, or however else you create identity for yourself.

[36:49]

sleep we all want to love and we all want to be loved we all want a sense of connection and I'm going to add that we all want a sense of freedom that this being draws us close to. Something in us knows. Something in us appreciates the wisdom and compassion of being. That when we touch it within ourselves, there is a kind of relief.

[38:04]

Given all the things I'm capable of, how lovely, this is how I'm being in this moment. And at this time of year, I remember my daughter, when she was in her righteous later teens, the whole notion of Christmas as a kind of commercial ploy. And now she has two young children of her own and she sees the delight, the imaginative intrigue they have around it all. give her credit, she still, as often as she can, which is most of the time, she creates the gifts she gives.

[39:16]

Attempting to moderate. I think that's part of what we're asked to do. Can you moderate aspects of our collective society that don't feel so good to you. Not as an expression of your aversion, your disapproval, your rejection, but in the service of interbeing that we can think of this time of year At its core it has something beautiful. At its core it really does shed a light on the human condition.

[40:20]

At its core it really does invite us to go beyond self-preoccupation. And then such is the nature of our human condition. We are inclined to say, but wait a minute, couldn't we sell lots of those and make lots of money or couldn't we whatever? That's the nature of our society. But can we see the goodness in it? And can we act in accord with the goodness. Not in a kind of... What would you say? Not in a naive way.

[41:25]

But in a way that's not going to easily give up the good because there's something you could validly criticize. And I would offer you that notion. This is our challenge. In the midst of all this turmoil, It's a kind of hope. A hope, a vow to enable, to bring forth that which, I'm inclined to use the word virtuous, but maybe that's too dualistic, brings forth a wholesomeness.

[42:35]

If you think about it, can we really resolve the difficulties we're having with our climate change if we don't bring it forth? If the countries, the major countries just keep competing and saying, well, why don't you cut your production? And we don't. as we have the possibility of a vaccine. I think many of us are thinking, ah, how lovely, how wonderful. Things will return to normal. So normal was great before the vaccine, before the agarist. We can make it so.

[43:47]

Indeed, we can let our wish for what can come back into being, we can carry with that wish well-being of everyone. We can carry with it a new beginning. May we not forget the commonality, the fragility of our collective being. May we not forget those kinds of losses that impact us all. When the virus is around and when it's not around. May we allow that rhythm of us, that as we head into the dark, we uphold the light.

[45:01]

Probably somewhere hundreds of thousands of years ago, while we were still hunters and gatherers, this heading into the dark of the year, we searched for some way to lighten up in both senses of the word. It's darkness. I'd like to offer you, in closing, a very short poem by Anna Swer. Here's the poem. There's a light in me. Whether in daytime or in nighttime, I always carry inside a light. In the midst of noise and turmoil, I carry silence. Always. I carry light and silence. Maybe in this talk I've been saying, carry a light.

[46:13]

See what you're dealing with. and carry into being. Don't just relate with your heart. Relate with that part of you that cares. That cares enough to buy a toy for a childless, homeless person, a homeless child. And cares enough to feel saddened when they hear a list of names, John Doe number one, John Doe number two, of people who've died on the street and didn't even have a name. That's how impoverished we left them. magnificent part of us.

[47:28]

It makes our life worthwhile. It supports us. It supports others. It helps us find a good response to the challenges we have in front of And the Zen chant says, implies, do what you do. Think about it deeply. Add your compassion to your wisdom. And then do what you do. Live your life. It's a precious gift. And Anna Swer says,

[48:38]

And I carry with me also a connection to being. It helps me, helps me remember something more than just doing. It seems to me when we can connect like this, we have a resilience. Okay, we have these problems, we have these issues in our collective being in this world and in our own lives. And when we meet them in this way, they will teach us. We learn something from them. We learn something

[49:39]

by both, by doing and being. Okay. Thank you very much for listening. I hope something in that helps. We'll now chant the closing verse, which can be found in the chat. intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them.

[50:41]

Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to become it. We now have time for question and answer. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, please raise your blue hand and we can unmute you. While you're thinking of that, I'm going to read you Anna Swerh's poem again. I think it's worth the second read. There's a light in me. Whether in daytime or in nighttime, I always carry inside a light. And in the middle of noise and turmoil, I carry silence. Always I carry light and silence. Matt, are you going to conduct this or shall I?

[52:02]

I can do it. And Terry has her hand up. So, Terry. Hi, Paul. Hi, Terry. Thank you so much for your talk and really weaving everything into it, including the season. I'm wondering if you could... You talked about... interbeing and connecting with that when you are encountering someone who has, you know, conspiracy theories. Could you talk a little more about that? Because, you know, that's a really tough one for me to know how to do that without that person coming away thinking that they've convinced me. Yes.

[53:05]

You know, sometimes recently I've been thinking, you know, Zen students, people who get attracted to Zen, they have a propensity towards maybe an aspiration towards a deep sanity and clarity. And that when confronted with something that seems to have an absence of either of those, it becomes a real dilemma. Here's one of my own thoughts in reflecting on this for myself, is that I think of it as an emotional resonance.

[54:12]

Here's a story that carries a resonance with uncertainty, fear, sense of ominous danger and something in us says, I can relate to that. I think of some of these conspiracy theaters that the details are not that important because actually if you look at them you can see that the details often morph Here's this conspiracy theory. And then someone else comes along and says, well, did you know they also eat their young? They said, yeah. That also captures the emotional danger and distress and alienation of others.

[55:23]

The other thought I have, Terry, is that in my experience of working with people who have paranoia, they need reassurance. They need our reassurance more than they need our logic. Here's what's logical. You really think that there's a global conspiracy where millions and millions of people across the globe are in concert in enacting this notion. Is that logical? Usually that misses the emotional resonance. Each of us has our yearning for well-being.

[56:38]

And each of us has a way of trying to bring that well-being forward. And whether it's constructing an ominous other that we can then identify and agree upon. Or whether... The notion of reassurance. You would like to be reassured that your well-being can be protected. Okay. Got it. I have my own version of that. And to add in, especially when all these different approaches, to pick an example of our electoral, our presidential electoral process.

[57:56]

With all the different notions being put forth and the depth of them and the breadth of them. Maybe it's simple and naive to say everyone's trying to discover well-being in the middle of it. But I also think that notion, naive as it may be, helps to bring forth compassion. And I have found in myself, if I just think of it as an intellectual process and just strengthen my own opinions, I lose my compassion. And I think in doing so, I lose some empathy for why someone may be so attracted to a point of view that I find, honestly, some of them I just find absurd.

[59:22]

It's just how it is for me. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you, Paul. You're welcome. Don put his hand up. So much about the nourishment of giving the spirit. As we get to comment, as a child of the 30s, it was very important to me. to make sure that I had a secure old age. I worked hard for the pension, you might say.

[60:26]

I made sure that I got it. And I was fortunate that I could do that, because not everybody can. So as I look at the, as many of the people who are wearing red hats, as I call them, they, I think of them as being upset because they have no place in society now. They have no jobs, they have no, they can't, what they thought they could do to achieve their identity has been withdrawn from them, a job, a home, you know, a role. And I have sympathy for them in a way, identify in a sense like, my God, what if I was like that? What if that had happened to me, you know? So I think we don't need them in our opportunity structure in this country.

[61:28]

We don't need their work. And so I don't know how that would be interpreted inside of me as a rage or whatever. Anyway, that's my comment. Okay. Thank you, Don. The phrase that came to mind was, maybe so. Suzuki Roshi is wonderful. Maybe so. Maybe that is part of what motivates them. I think it's important that we don't assume to know. And it's also important to remind ourselves that... Others are not unilateral. They all think like this.

[62:30]

They all think in a whole bunch of ways, and I suspect some people are just as you say, and then I suspect others see it as a morality play. The brief virtue that America was created to uphold is being challenged. And all sorts of things. And then others are just sort of in it for the hell of it, you know. Here's a way to cause mischief. Let's do it. And all sorts of things. To me, one of the intrigues is a Zen teacher once said to me, the Dharma is like a good joke. Everybody gets it.

[63:32]

How do we all get in touch with our hearts? And how do we remind ourselves and each other to do that? Like I once heard a story of it. of an African-American man who was being berated and insulted by a Ku Klux Klan member. And to make this story very short, he was intrigued by how this person could hate him so venomously without knowing anything about him other than the color of his skin. And so he set about finding out. In the process, they became close friends. and the Ku Klux man left the Ku Klux Klan. I think that curiosity, that willingness to try to look beyond this

[64:51]

what is this person who is this person how does that in what world system does that make complete sense no i try to have my world system make complete sense thank you It's 1120. Maybe we have time for one more question. Well, we have about 10 minutes. I'll answer them quicker. Thank you. Do you want to call on the next person? Shannon. Good morning, Paul. Good morning, Shannon. It's good to see you. Nice to see you, too. Thank you for your talk. Early on, a part really resonated with me, which was loss of self with COVID.

[65:55]

And as a teacher, it was a huge loss to not, who am I if I'm not with the children? But there was also a loss in my racial identity as a white person and my belief of being like a good white person and an ally. And my increased racial awareness I saw the harm that I was doing in my classroom and with my coworkers, and I had to let go. In a way, that was a supportive loss in terms of my awareness of the harm and my growth as a person and a human being, the own suffering that I was experiencing by being who I was as someone raised in the society. I imagine there are many other individuals within our Sangha who had a similar awakening. I can't say that for sure. But I also am aware of a great intention on the part of our Sangha.

[66:58]

And I'm curious about, as an institution, what can support us to let go of our identity? I mean, it's a huge challenge. And I'm not saying we're letting go of all of it. And I'm not a bad white person. And yet I do think that first for me, I wanted to hold on to that aspect of myself. And I'm aware that by letting go of that, I was able to see things. And so our intention, I wonder how we can collectively let go of things that might, you know, our identity that might be supportive. for us being more inclusive and doing less harm. And I'm just curious about what can we collectively do to let go of some aspects that might be preventing us or that by letting go it would support us. That's my question. So in this talk, I'd be talking about something very fundamental, you know, and then not giving it specifics other than, you know, these kind of

[68:13]

non-specific terms doing and being um and and the world has specifics you know an organization has uh specific agendas specific actions and um i think What I think we're in the midst of is learning, doing, getting advice and feeling our way. I can remember about three months ago, someone gave me a chart and I forget the terms they use, but essentially they were saying that an organization that has actualized its intention to be aware about how it has systemically enmeshed in racism and then other isms can take these steps.

[69:41]

I think there's a willingness and now we're in the process of discovering what it is to enact our willingness. My concern is that we don't lose our willingness the process like that story i told about the african-american gentleman you know approaching the kukuk i don't know if he could have approached him with the kind of innocent curiosity if he didn't in some way recognize him as a human being worthy of recognition I think that's important that we maintain that too.

[70:45]

Even though when we're being radically honest, we will see shortcomings in how we're doing what we're doing. Thank you. Thank you. So maybe one last question. Catherine. Thank you. There are executions happening, which is quite profound and upsetting in this context and at any time. And the Catholic Church has been direct in a statement. And I wonder about this question about institution and expression and a curiosity and compassion, but also a directness and an action.

[72:12]

I wonder if you can respond to that. Are you saying an action in relationship to executions? Well, yeah, it's just interesting to me that different... religious traditions can be more publicly assertive in their public, in their statements around certain things and others less so, our tradition being one of those, a much more careful plotting through maybe, or I don't know. In my heart, it feels so automatic to grieve and to want to reach out and connect with others in that grieving for not just these lives, but for what it means for our country and the way.

[73:34]

So you're asking me, maybe in summary, you're asking me, isn't this something Zen Center should speak out about? Yeah, I'm hesitating around the should and asking it more as a, yeah, I don't, That's the space that I'm in. Yeah. Certainly makes sense to me. In the past we have. I don't know about others, but for me these two executions that happened in the last couple of days They sort of snuck up on me.

[74:42]

I had no idea they were coming. And I know in the past we have spoke out against capital punishment and aligned ourselves with others who did so too. And it seems like now's another time to reinforce that. In a broader sense, Catherine, I would say, have to both be resolute, and I think in a way, I would combine it with a certain humility. Yes, there's more we could do. And not to be discouraged by that or ashamed of that, but in a way, fiercely compassionate.

[75:42]

Okay. we will do our best to do more. And will we ever fully accomplish or embody or enact what we hold as valuable and virtuous? Probably not. But not to go the other way and just say, well, then let's lose heart. So thank you for bringing it up. It's a valuable point. So thank you. Okay. And thank you everyone for your kind attention. And may the next coming weeks, whatever you want to describe them as, vacation time,

[76:47]

holiday season, spiritual season, the time of light within the darkness. May it bring you happiness. May it remind you of what you treasure and care and who you treasure and care about. Thank you very much. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Paul. Thank you. Thank you. Much love to you all, especially Paul. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Gracias, Paul from Mexico.

[77:51]

It was great. to see you too and everybody.

[77:56]

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