This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Once again, welcome to this temple of the Buddha way. How many people here are here for the first time? Wow. I feel like I should apologize to your new people because I'm going to talk about something really deep and difficult. I'm sorry. But

[01:00]

You know, maybe it'll just go right in and there'll be no problem. I think I see the Buddha way different from the way some other people see it. And I feel it's my responsibility to tell you my strange way of seeing the way of the Buddhas. May I? is it again? The way of the Buddhas. By the way, how many of you also went to the Zazen instruction this morning? Okay. So I'm also, what I'm also talking about, I want to talk about the way of the Buddhas. This is from my perspective, which is unique. Other people see it differently. And When I speak of the Buddha way, I also mean the way of Zazen.

[02:06]

We have a nickname in this temple for the Buddha way. The nickname is Zazen. So we give Zazen instruction. Last Sunday, when I came out of this meditation hall, I saw these signs, and the signs said Zazen instruction. And I thought, oh, we don't write Buddha way instruction. But Zazen is code for the Buddha way. And the Buddha way is code for Zazen. And the Buddha way is also code for freeing all living beings so they may dwell in peace and harmony.

[03:14]

That is the Buddha way. It's freeing beings from delusion and suffering so they may dwell in peace with each other in harmony. That's also what zazen is. And there's an image of the Buddha way that I often am mindful of. It's the image of sitting upright in the midst of fierce flames of suffering.

[04:21]

Sitting at the center of all the suffering of this world. I'm probably no better than you at bringing to mind and sharing words and feelings about all the suffering there is in this world today. You all know about it. more or less infinite suffering. Children, adults, men, women, so much suffering, so much cruelty, so much inattention, so much distraction from a wholesome way of life, so much suffering.

[05:30]

And my image of the Buddhas is they sit at the center of it all. A Buddha is a Sanskrit word, I think. And it's the past participle of awake. Buddha is a word which means the awakened or awakened one. The awakened one's They are free, but they're sitting in the middle of all suffering. And what are they doing sitting there? They're turning the wheel of the Dharma, which we spoke about a moment ago. The Dharma. They're turning the wheel of the true teaching. And they're turning the wheel for the welfare and the freedom of all the suffering that surrounds them.

[06:38]

That's the Buddha's home. And it's kind of an astounding coincidence that we, each of us, are sitting in the same place. We're all sitting at the center or at a center of all the suffering. We're all surrounded by inexhaustible suffering. Have you noticed? Front, back, right side, up, down. We're in the middle of suffering. We, ordinary people, share with the Buddhas the opportunity to turn the wheel

[08:01]

of the true teaching. We're in the right place. Or we're in a right place. We're in a good spot. And we always will be, and we always have been. And now that we're growing up and becoming adults, we have the opportunity to accept this opportunity and this responsibility. Because of where we sit, we have the responsibility to turn the wheel of Dharma. for the welfare of all the suffering that surrounds us.

[09:04]

It's our responsibility and opportunity. So the Buddhas also had the opportunity, and in a way, I could rephrase everything I've said so far, in a slightly different way, which is, I said, Buddhas are sitting at the center of all suffering, turning the wheel of the true teaching, but I could also just say, sitting at the center, turning the wheel of the true teaching. That's really what's going on. The Buddhas aren't something in addition to sitting at the center, turning the wheel. The sitting at the center, turning the wheel, is the Buddha's.

[10:06]

And if we join this sitting at the center, we are already there, but if we acknowledge and accept where we are, we have the opportunity, the same as the Buddha's, to do this work, this wonderful work. And it is our nature, therefore our responsibility, to do this work. And we're in the process of learning how. The thorough work of sitting and doing this work is Buddha's. We, on the path of learning this, so they call us bodhisattvas, we're in the process of learning how to free all beings at our place. I sincerely propose that to you.

[11:11]

And also, it's offered not as a truth, but as something I am offering to you. For you to think about. And also, I'm offering it to you as a conversation piece. Something to talk about. If what I'm saying is authentic, then I say it's questionable. If what I say is authentic to the Buddha way, then it's appropriate that you call me into question, that I be called into question. Like the Buddhas, we at our place in this world, surrounded by suffering, have the opportunity to listen to it all or to listen to it moment by moment.

[12:35]

To listen to the cries of suffering. Which again, I'm guessing a lot of you are listening to already. That you hear these cries and you're you're deeply touched by what you hear. Buddhas listen too. And when we listen, we're doing the work of Buddhas. And also to observe it with our thought and our eyes, to observe it all with compassion. We're in the right place to do this listening. Buddhas are doing it. We can join the Buddha activity of listening to all this suffering, of watching it, of being at our place, of training to not run away from our place, not be someplace else where there's less suffering, not be someplace else where there's more suffering, but be right here with this suffering that we're hearing.

[13:51]

that we're observing and train to be completely there and watch our mind which is also crying. Or watch our mind which is calling for compassion. Watch our mind as it has trouble being here and veers off into distractions. Listening to the cries of the world turns the wheel of the Dharma. Listening to the cries of the world, observing living beings has a major and a primary job. A primary job on the Buddha way is to listen to these calls.

[15:02]

We are being called to listen. Beings are begging us to listen to them. And then responding to that call for us to listen with listening is turning the wheel of Dharma, is a basic activity in the process of freeing beings and realizing peace. And again, notice... that your own mind is calling, that your body and mind are also calling. So join in awareness your own calling for compassion and listen to other people's calling. Buddha is aware of her own calling and other people's calls. This calling and listening and listening and calling, this is an essential part

[16:06]

the Buddha way which is performed at each center that we are but we can get distracted of course from it and when we're distracted hopefully we'll notice and then be compassionate to our distraction and then we're back on the job can you hear me in the back So in this school, this school here, do you see this school? It's kind of an invisible school, but in this school here, which I'm talking about, another way to talk about the work of liberating beings is called meeting face-to-face. So the Buddhas are sitting at their place, at the center, and we are sitting at our place, at the center.

[17:21]

And in reality, we are giving our face to the world. Like it or not, you give your face. And others give their face to you. Humans, of course, have faces. Dogs have faces. Cats have faces. Banana slugs have faces. Trees have faces. Flowers have faces. All things have a face which they give us, and we give our face to them. And this meeting face-to-face is going on all day long, and Buddha's awake to it. And they join this face-to-face meeting. And this face-to-face meeting is the Buddha way. But again, it's hard for us to accept this moment-by-moment face-to-face meeting.

[18:32]

It's so deep and intense. We may be embarrassed how moved we are by it and the tears that run down our cheeks. when we feel this, when we, not even feel, when we join this face-to-face meeting. Enlightenment, Buddha's awakening, is face-to-face meeting. It's not like one person, lucky person, is awake. One person is enlightened. It's not really like that. It's one person meeting another person and listening and calling wholeheartedly. That face-to-face meeting is awakening.

[19:34]

It's not on one side or the other. It's the relationship. It's the conversation between us that is the awakening. So the awakening is involved one person in conversation with all persons and all persons in conversation with one person. That's what I'm proposing is Buddha. And Buddha is not something in addition to you meeting another human being face to face, genuinely and wholeheartedly. That meeting is Buddha. And Buddha is that meeting. And that meeting is how people are liberated. I don't liberate myself. You don't liberate me. I don't liberate you. But our face-to-face meeting liberates not just us, but everybody.

[20:40]

Is that enough? Okay, a little bit more? Okay. So now some more suggestions about how to turn the Dharma wheel, about how to do the practice of the Buddhas. or how to do the practice, which is Buddhist, how to do this conversation. Well, this school, this invisible school, has lots of stories about invisible conversations. A lot of these conversations, I mean, a lot of these stories are about conversations that occurred hundreds and hundreds, even thousands of years ago, which, of course, we can't see.

[22:11]

But we talk about them. We talk about these stories of people meeting face-to-face and having conversations. And sometimes in these stories of these people having face-to-face conversations, which are sometimes... One of them is called the teacher and the other one is called the student. Sometimes in these stories, at the end of the story they say that the student woke up. I'm okay with that. They don't usually say, and the teacher woke up. They sometimes say the teacher and the student woke up. And they sometimes say neither one of them woke up. And sometimes they say the teacher was already awake and the student didn't get awake. This is things we hear language like this, but I'm a little different.

[23:13]

I say in the story where they're having this conversation, at the end of which they say something really good happened, the Buddha way was occurring during the whole conversation. And so maybe at the end of the conversation, somebody who didn't realize how good this conversation was realized, oh, that was really a great conversation. Oh, my God. I thought it was like a below-average conversation. Especially I thought his contribution was not that good. I wasn't understanding. This is the Buddha way. This conversation we're having is like liberating all beings. And then we could say, and then I understood that. Or you could say, and then there was understanding that what we're really doing here is the Buddha way. And what we're really doing is that we are listening to each other and calling to each other and conversing with each other and including each other and included in each other.

[24:24]

That's what we're really doing. And that's freedom from suffering. That's freedom from delusion. The delusion that I'm doing something which doesn't include you, and you're doing something which doesn't include me. The conversation frees us from that delusion. I can't speak to you now without including you and being included in you. And since I can't, I'm not. I'm speaking to you, including you, and I'm speaking to you, including you. That's reality. And since I said it's reality, it should be open to question. What I just said is questionable. Reality is questionable. Delusion is also questionable. Everything's questionable. But it's not like some things, okay, we're done, this is the truth, no more questions.

[25:28]

No, that's not the Buddha way. With that introduction, how about a story? Or two? Maybe a story about some people meeting face-to-face. Maybe a story... about a conversation. So a background to this story about a conversation is that there was a text written supposedly in the sixth century by one of the ancestors, one of the invisible ancestors of our invisible school in the sixth century.

[26:33]

And this person is called the third ancestor of Zen, a Chinese person, who they say was a leper. One of the ancestors of our invisible school is said to be a leper, was a leper. So, yeah, he wasn't, you know, so he wasn't, like, real popular. You know, he was, like, hiding in a cave a lot of the time. And he got to meet his teacher, the second ancestor, and the second ancestor accepted the third ancestor as a student. And he had face-to-face meetings with the leper, and the leper and the teacher. did this face-to-face transmission, and they realized the Buddha way together, which is, you know, a wonderful thing for us in this invisible school. And supposedly he uttered a poem, and somebody remembered it, and eventually they wrote it down.

[27:44]

That's the story. Now scholars have, by the way, recently suggested that the poem wasn't actually written until the 8th century. So probably he didn't write it. But anyway, whoever wrote it, it's very popular in our invisible school. And the writing of this poem is visible. You can read it. And you can say it. And part of the poem says, If there's a hair's breadth difference, the breadth of a hair, if there's a tiny difference or discrepancy, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. That phrase has been brought up millions and millions of times since the 6th or 8th century.

[28:54]

It's a very common thing to bring up in our invisible school. For example, one of our first ancestors in China, I mean in Japan, said the way is basically perfect and all-pervading. The way of the Buddhas is basically perfect and all-pervading. It's perfect. It pervades everything. if there's a hair's breadth difference it's like the distance between heaven and earth the way this way of conversation this way of awakening is already perfect and pervading everywhere but if there's a slight discrepancy it's a big difference

[30:14]

And what's the discrepancy? Well, one discrepancy is discrepancy between practicing the way and the way. Or between practicing and not practicing. This way is a way of life. And if we don't practice this way of life, Even a little bit, if we go away from this conversation, even a little bit, it's almost like the conversation is not going on at all. Because this conversation is an activity. It's not just an idea. If we don't join the activity of the conversation, of the face-to-face meeting, it's almost like the face...

[31:15]

I mean, we can join it, right? But then sort of think that it's a little bit different from us. Or that it's a little bit different from this activity. A slight sense of separation. You know, a miss is good as a mile, as they say. A miss is as good as a mile. Or even hundreds and hundreds of miles. So we need to train to have no discrepancy between what we're doing right now at this place and the Buddha way. And our mind is at risk, ongoingly, in making the practice and the enlightenment at least a little bit different.

[32:27]

Not to mention, you've got enlightenment in the world and somebody completely forgets to practice. Well, then it seems like it's different. That might seem like it's different, too. There's no practice. But even if you are practicing, if you think what you're doing is a little bit different from the reality of what you're doing, that's a major rift in the fabric of awakening. It's a major rift which hinders the liberation of beings by the transmission of a thorough conversation.

[33:29]

In a thorough conversation, when it's really genuine and thorough, there's not a hair's breadth difference. But then the next moment, we can see a little difference, and then we're knocked off again. for the moment, but then we can turn to that and meet it wholeheartedly with no difference. So here's one story, which I gave you the background for. So one of the ancestors, Chinese ancestors, his name is Fa Yan, which can be translated into English as Dharma I, or I of the truth, I of the true teaching. Fa Yan, Dharma I. He said to one of his colleagues, another monk, whose name was Shushan.

[34:39]

And Shushan means Lord of the Mountain. So Dharma says to the Lord of the Mountain, if there is the slightest discrepancy, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. How do you understand that? And the Lord of the Mountain says, If there is the slightest discrepancy, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. And then Dharmaya says, how can you get at it?

[35:44]

in this way. And... Dharmai says... No, and then... King of the Mountain says... I'm just like this. How about you? And Dharmai said... If there's the slightest discrepancy, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. That was so subtle, it might have been easy or very difficult. And I'm kind of embarrassed to explain anything to you, but just going over it again, I could make a comment. Shall I?

[36:46]

If there's the slightest discrepancy, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. Yeah, very good. How do you understand that? Okay. If there's the slightest discrepancy, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. That seems pretty good, doesn't it? Pretty good. Maybe no discrepancy. Maybe none. Pretty good. But then another question is, okay, there's no discrepancy, but if there's no discrepancy, how do you get it? How do you get the understanding if there's no discrepancy? Usually we use discrepancies to understand things. Like if you meet somebody... Well, how do you understand them if you don't have a discrepancy with them? Okay, there she is. Okay, she's different from me. I got her. But if there's no discrepancy between us, how can I attain her?

[37:51]

How can I get her? How can I understand her? Usually we separate to get. But you don't have to separate to give. So anyway, so he... The one teacher asks the question, the other teacher gives a pretty good answer. He says, yeah, but how do you deal when there's no discrepancy? How do you work with that? And then he says again, pretty good answer, I'm just like this. Hey, brother, look, I'm just like this. How about you? Well, if there's a hair-to-breadth difference, it's like the distance between heaven and earth. Pretty good. This is the conversation. Nobody got anything. So part of the way that we turn the Dharma wheel is to watch out for any sense that the Buddha way is other than what we're doing right now.

[39:02]

That the wholehearted face-to-face meeting is which is awakening, is something other than this conversation. Or that there's some conversation other than this conversation. Like right now, is there some other conversation from this conversation? And we have the ability to imagine there's another conversation besides this one. And even while imagining that, we can learn that that imagination, that there's another conversation, is the current conversation, is the current enlightenment. But we have to train at that. Because our mind keeps looking for someplace else from here. One of my old friends recently retired after a long and productive career where he accomplished so much.

[40:22]

And so much of what he accomplished was really helpful to people. Now he's retired, and he told me that he's taking mindfulness classes. which he's really enjoying. And he says the people in the mindfulness class are really so helpful to him when he tells them the difficulties he's having practicing mindfulness. And one of his main difficulties is while he's practicing mindfulness, the thought arises about accomplishing something, about some productions, to produce something by this nice practice of mindfulness. there's a hair's breadth deviation. I didn't say that to him, but we have the habit of trying to accomplish something, of trying to produce something, of trying to get something. If we're having a conversation and we're trying to produce something by the conversation, in the conversation, for the conversation, there's a hair's breadth difference, which is a huge difference.

[41:41]

to have the conversation is the practice. That was good. What do you think? When we sit in this room and when you sit in your room at home or some other temple, when you sit, that moment, that's your practice.

[43:08]

And that practice is you being who you are in conversation with all beings. And who you are might be a person who thinks the invisible school of Zen might be different from what I'm doing. This might not be true Zen practice that I'm doing. Which is similar to being called into question by your own mind. But when your mind calls you into question about your practice, there is actually not the slightest difference between that and the Buddha way. Everything you do, you have the opportunity to have that be your offering

[44:20]

to realize the Buddha way, which is none other, which is none other than what you're doing right now. The Buddha way is none other than wiping your hair off your ear. The Buddha way cannot be anything other than what you are doing right now. And each of us has our unique, moment-by-moment activity which we can offer to the Buddha way, which is none other than our activities. Somebody told me recently that she thought a minute or so ago was a good place to stop.

[45:38]

Would now be another good moment to stop? May I stop? Thank you for coming to this temple. Thank you for listening to this podcast. offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[46:27]

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