This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. So we're looking at these five drinks. And just to say a few introductory words for anyone who wasn't here last time. The word rank, that's one translation, or stages actually is another translation of the term. But it can also be translated in ways that don't sound linear, like modes or arrangements or positions. So the turn can kind of go either way. And in the tradition, there's some tendency to lean towards stages.

[01:05]

But I kind of feel like, anyway, I feel like there's a way in which each one can speak to us wherever we're at. And for me, that's kind of where they have their life. And we tend not to, we tend to be kind of cautious about stages in our practice. Which is not to say that, you know, nothing happens. But I think, you know, part of it is actually is, you know, this idea of Buddha nature. You know, Indian Buddhism, it sometimes, you know, feels like a metaphor, a basic metaphor might be like a seed. And so you have this seed, and you do various things to grow it into a tree. And you do different things at different points, and there's like stages of growth. And so that's, whereas in Zen, our true nature is more like a jewel.

[02:15]

And it's just like, it's perfect. It's done. It's complete. So there isn't, there aren't that many stages. It's just like, bring out the jewel. actualize it, make it alive moment by moment. It's not a fixed jewel. I mean, jewel sounds like something that just has a definite shape. Actually, the shape is right now taking place in this way uniquely and next moment again. So it's this ongoing practice. And so a lot of... So there is a tendency in Zen in some ways to kind of... Yeah, be... suspicious of kind of ideas of stages of progression because it seems to miss this idea about what our true nature actually is or what the truth of our life, how it actually lives. You know, or another way they would talk about this is like, you know, if you're looking at a non-dual kind of situation or appreciation of our lives, from a dualistic perspective,

[03:24]

you might be able to imagine like some discrete dualistic steps towards non-duality that would then be somewhere over there. Whereas like, but the non-duality is right here. Otherwise it would be like somehow this dualistic non-duality that's like, I don't go near duality. So, and this is the idea of sudden awakening in Zen also, that you don't kind of take gradual steps. It's more like a leap or just, turn right where you are. Um, but that said, you know, if this, if awakening is, this is one kind of immediate truth, um, we can get stuck in different ways and we can get stuck in different ways and different times in our practice and our lives. And so, you know, so having like five ranks or five modes to pointing five ways we can get stuck and five ways we can turn, five ways we can pivot. And, um, and kind of work with this kind of living contradiction of suffering and awakening both being this.

[04:32]

So then just to say a couple words about the first two ranks. So the first rank was this darkness, not knowing, this intimate not knowing. or, you know, recognition, or meeting without recognition. And that, um, and that within this kind of, there's this intimacy, but then still this, like, um, uh, true nature itself, you know, wanting an ongoing actualization. So not, not kind of camping out, or, you know, abiding in this intimacy. And, um, And so partially also, this is like, you know, when we talk about Buddha nature or true nature, there is a way in which, like, there is a kind of, it does have, it's always our true nature. So there is a kind of unchanging quality to our true nature. Actually, in Indian Buddhism, they sometimes said Buddha nature is permanent.

[05:44]

But I think, you know, in kind of tradition of Dogen, our true nature is always the case, but how it actually is living in our life, again, is unique to this moment. And so it's not a one-time actualization. It's over and over. Each moment has its own configuration of relationships that that's the life of our true nature. And then the second ring is kind of entering into this kind of well, Dharma of differentiation or practice of finding our way in the light. And in the poem, you know, it's an old woman oversleeping at daybreak meets the ancient mirror. And I just wanted to mention also that one way of looking at this, this like, well, old woman or, you know,

[06:50]

So this could be kind of muddle-headed person, these particular characters. So this could be this like muddle-headed kind of nighttime kind of intimacy, oversleeping and kind of finding itself suddenly in the daylight. And so kind of that intimacy now functioning in differentiation. You're finally waking up there. All right. And then one thing also is just that, you know, we can look at these as stages, or we can also look at these two wrench in particular as kind of being just a dynamic of our practice, going back and forth, over and over, like the front and back foot, and walking in the sando thai, so light, dark, light, dark. This is part of the rhythm of our practice and our life. All right. So should we go into a third position, a third mode?

[07:57]

So this one's usually called Emerging Within the Universal, or Emerging Within the Real. Within nothingness, the road is free of dust. If you can simply avoid mentioning the emperor's name, you will surpass the eloquence of the Swede Dynasty Polish. So, within nothingness, this can sound kind of nihilistic, but I think, you know, just to give it a little, you know, it's poetry. So, you know, so it's not like a literal nihilistic position, but more like where there's nothing to grasp. or where, you know, where you're not grasping a thing, or, you know, this is like, kind of like the darkness of the first light, like this intimacy of the same.

[09:03]

In emptiness or, you know, emptiness is that, you know, nothing exists by itself. And so, you know, the heart sutra itself has a little tension in it, in which, like, you know, you know, it starts off by saying form is emptiness, emptiness is form, you know, and that they can flow back and forth quite well, but then it says in emptiness, no form. So there can be this like absorption in this truth of emptiness where you just don't see things, you know, and that's just like total darkness. But it's not a denial that the, it's not a denial of existence. It's just that like this, it's just apprehendable form of existence. the road is free of dust or I think you could also say there is a road free of dust. Um, so dust, um, you know, you could just, we could hear this as like, uh, you know, our various, our mental afflictions and the stuff we do, um, uh, you know, how we, how we try to grasp things.

[10:22]

So, um, so kind of this, finding this road free of dust is like, it's a study of our grass thing, I would say. And, and, you know, we are, there's like many levels to grass thing, you know, many aspects or sort of subtleties of grass thing. And I think for obviously any kind of grass thing, the practice is just to feel the grasping. And that's enough. If we go in with a kind of attitude that we're going to ungrasp our grasping, that's just a kind of strange kind of other kind of grasping. And that, you know, actually a lot of our grasping, the way it lives is we're not in touch with it. As soon as we feel it, oh, wow, I can feel this grasping, it'll open.

[11:26]

You know, sometimes you have to be patient. And also, you know, if it's a habit, you know, you can feel your grasping, you can let go, and like, you know, five seconds later, type again. So over and over again. All right. And so this road... This road free of dust within nothingness, this is not somewhere else. It's not apart from the difficulties of this day. And the second line of this one is, if you can simply avoid mentioning the emperor's name. So there was a taboo in China against, you know, saying the name of the emperor.

[12:30]

Um, so they were just, the emperor was just called like, um, his imperial majesty, uh, the present emperor. And, um, and, you know, we kind of have kind of formal, you know, newspapers, you know, they usually refer to people by their last name. There's a, we have a kind of formality, you know, we don't often don't use first names in certain contexts. Um, and so then, um, And in this context, this is sort of like looking at how does language interact with practice, with our awakening, with our opening? You know, how do we talk about it? And, you know, sometimes we find like if we... If we try to talk about our practice or what it means to us, to someone who doesn't have a sense of practice, it can feel kind of yucky.

[13:33]

And it's kind of like some kind of betrayal is taking place. Because basically when we start to talk about it, it either sounds like more than it is or less. It just doesn't convey or express it really. Or anyway, I found it's like almost a never satisfying undertaking. But our practice, it does need to be expressed. So how to kind of... Anyway, how to... Relax with the fact that our heart of practice will find expression. And... And rather than like using words to kind of impose some shape on what's happening in our practice, to kind of let practice shape our words. So we also say sometimes like words can't reach it. It can't fit to what our practice is really about. But this practice awakening can use words.

[14:39]

It can talk. And... And... You know, sometimes, you know, Jingshan's writing these poems now, and Zen tends to be kind of... Zen tends not to get into explaining itself. You know, the koans, poetry, and so on. But it does use a lot of words. But I think it's trying to find ways of using words that give some space for the vitality of practice to have its... to kind of shape it. without, you know, giving it, you know, something too definite that we can kind of cling to. And that also, you know, being said, we also do just talk about it. Because it's helpful, you know, to try, you know, we need to talk about it sometimes.

[15:40]

And so we do that. We do that a lot in America, in American Zen. So one way of hearing this is just like, avoid saying, like, awakening, enlightenment, emptiness, Buddha. Just don't say those things. And so you can actually, you know, emptiness does not come out very much. You know, if you look in the call and collections, they'll never say emptiness. And they're chanting the heart structure every day. but the teachers won't say emptiness. And if the students say it, you know, it's usually they're in trouble. But I would also say that this thing not saying the emperor's name is not so much like what words do we say or don't we say, but how are we using language?

[16:41]

How are we using words? And So are we kind of like, are we using words to try and get at something that words can't get at? For relying on words, or words as a function of philosophy. So, this is just arising from you right now, is that, you know, it always says, you know, masks don't say emptiness and stuff, so you get that, like, Zen is a structural transmission beyond the scriptures, direct pointing at our own true nature, and you're very direct pointing at our own true nature, like, all the time. Although sometimes it's like the masters are saying, it's so simple, true nature. So I was just wondering if you could speak to that at all. Well, I mean, that's just kind of, that is a kind of motto of Zen. It's kind of attributed to Bodhi Diamond. Well, again, I would say that, like, you know, in the koans, the monks will bring up true nature. Um...

[17:41]

And then the teachers will say stuff and, you know, whether it's direct pointing or not, you know, they could say it is. You know, like, just like lifting up a glass is like direct pointing, you know. You know, Jeff, you know, a monk asked Zhaozhou, you know, does a dog have Buddha nature or not? He said, no, that's like direct pointing. But, you know, uh... It's kind of confounding to form a direct point. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Does it? Yeah, it does. So the third line of this one, you will surpass the eloquence of the Sui dynasty poet. So this is, again, not talking so much about beautiful language, I think, but about speaking authentically from awakening, letting our practice speak.

[19:00]

And one thing Dogen emphasizes is kind of, menju, face-to-face transmission, as kind of like where dharma comes from. So dharma comes from a meeting. So the actual source of dharma as truth is not from the book or from some awakened mind talking to some deluded mind, but actually in a meeting there can be speaking that is dharma and um and that's actually where the life of you know you know these like um zen teachings happens and so you know in a way this is embodied in koan literature where they they they basically they preserve dialogues you know so most of you know it's not it's not always the case that you know most buddhist texts

[20:06]

before Zen, sometimes there'd be question and answer at the end of a section or part of the text, but mostly they're like discursive or exposition. And Zen isn't really into preserving like it was a meeting, and out of this meeting something happened. And this is where how the Dharma is actually communicating, is actually in the meeting. It's not like a one-way street. And this is also, for me, this is like, you know, so this kind of as a rank is kind of pointing to like how the, also where compassion is starting to come forth. Like we're coming from our practice now to the world with compassion, you know, out of love. This is part of the request of our

[21:10]

A true nature. This isn't just for us. We're here to wake up with all beings. Wake up with each other. So, any comments or questions at this point? I'm not sure if I'm going to say it, but you said earlier that being an idiot, understanding of Buddhism with Zen, an idiot has to seek to the tree, but then you have to be gradual, and yet, you know, we always, at least in our practice, talk about gradually practicing, like there's an actual Is that the same kind of understanding or is it different?

[22:18]

With Zen non-gradual but yet practice is gradual? There's different ways of talking about it. Some people, there are some tendencies to just criticize any gradual expression. so that there's that kind of current in the tradition. I think, you know, if we look at how our minds work, you know, I think you could in some ways say awakening is sudden, but then still, you know, character transformation isn't, you know. And so, like, there's kind of many aspects of how we actually develop as people and if we want to I think we can put a lot of them into awakening if we want to or we can just say awakening is this one thing over here and you know and so there are traditions you know I think if sometimes the traditions that totally deny all this gradual stuff you know they don't you know you can have someone who's awakened an awakened jerk you know and it's sort of like you know well I don't know you know I mean you could say that if you can have that if you want I mean

[23:36]

And it's not so much what we're into here, I think. And I think you can still have a kind of... I mean, so Dogen has this path that's based on realization. And so he's trying to kind of, you know, find it, basically trying to reconcile, you know, in a way like a kind of sudden spirit of kind of like... Like the problem with gradualism is not that we have progressed gradually. The problem is like... if there's a kind of, basically, if our whole practice, if our practice is based on a deluded notion of what awakening is, or is it based on an awakening notion of what awakening is? So, you know, so if you're a practice based on realization, or practice based on delusion. And so, you know, and so in a way, there's like this idea that if you're practicing in this kind of looking at things in terms of stages, and what stage am I in, and how am I gonna get to that next stage?

[24:37]

That's kind of a deluded position. Or if like, okay, am I progressing? How am I progressing? What are the marks of progression? How do I know? And like, is there no backsliding? How do I know when I get to the point where I won't kind of slide back? You know, the things that we can see are, those are just things that we can see. Are those really? what practice is about. Is that why we're practicing? So to say that I think it's a nice pointer to Zen being what I personally think is a meditation tradition to point directly to the mind in the moment that's having those thoughts, look at the notion of time and self that might be involved and look over it. So it's kind of nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I think there's a kind of sudden spirit to practice that we want to take care of, and that there's gradual development, and there will be, or you could see, I mean, I don't think we want to say there's no progress, there's no development, but then if we, I don't think we want to say there's a linear way of progressing in practice, so just have a more kind of spacious view of

[26:01]

but that the spirit of our meditation isn't is more of just like it's a kind of sudden thing of just like totally engage this moment without trying to figure out how to get somewhere else let's So the fourth mode, this is proceeding within phenomena, or sometimes it's called something like proceeding within both. And there's actually a lot of discussion about those two titles, which I think, you know, let's just focus on the poem, I would say. Two swords cross, neither permitting retreat.

[27:02]

dexterously wielded like the lotus in the midst of fire a natural imperative to assail heaven itself so these two swords crossed neither permitting retreat this is like my favorite phrase in these poems um um And, cause I guess for me it embodies it, but there's like this, there is this like, there's like a tension or a contradiction or dynamic. And, and it's just, it's just alive. And it's like, neither permits retreat. And you don't, you don't, you don't retreat. It doesn't retreat. It's just this, it's this dynamic tension.

[28:05]

that's alive, or you know, not one, not two. And like, you know, that's like, they're intimate, it's not merged, it's also not separate. And sometimes people talk about this as like, the apparent and the real in our life. But also this could be like, you know, us and whatever's happening. that there's these swords meeting. And this kind of no retreat is sort of like, there isn't like, this is our life, this is it. There's not like another version of this moment to work with. I can't kind of back out of this now. we're stuck being this person but like but you know there's that you know we can if we engage it there's this thing there's this life um and so we're not trying to kind of like unify them and we're not trying to kind of distinguish them or separate them um you know or like um

[29:35]

If we engage wholeheartedly, we will feel completely met. And if we kind of hold back from our lives a little bit or a lot, we'll feel like the world's holding back from us. And if we push and fight, we'll feel the world pushing and fighting against us. So there's no, you can't get away from this intimacy, this meeting. I don't know what else to say, but somehow I... That just lives for me. Dexterously wielded like the lotus in the midst of fire. So, you know, so again, if we're skillful or if we're completely wholehearted, if we're totally engaged, it's not a fight.

[30:38]

It becomes a... you know, you become skillful in this image of the lotus in the midst of fire. So this is from the Vinayakirti Sutra. And in the Vinayakirti Sutra, it's kind of like this lotus blossoming in scorching fires, meditating in the midst of our mental affairs. And, you know, and I guess, you know, in the context of this, I think we can read it kind of like just engaging practice in the challenges of our life, in the difficult stuff, right in the fire. is where this work is happening. And so, you know, again, so that was part of the reason, like, one of the things I said yesterday about, you know, the context of, you know, being grounded in our self brain, in touch with our pain, is kind of how we study the vibrance. We don't look for awakening outside of the fire.

[31:49]

And then the third line, a natural imperative to assail heaven itself. So heaven, you know, again, it can sound like it's up there somewhere. And I feel it's talking, you know, but again, but it's really about a true nature manifesting now here. And this natural spirit, I would also say, is also true nature. So true nature wants to actualize true nature in our life and with each other, you know, and ongoing. And this is this kind of, again, this is like... Part of how these... these poems work is describing places in practice and also describing that we don't stay, we keep moving on or through or forward. It's a kind of seeking, but not a seeking out there, but a seeking of true nature.

[33:05]

Dr. Hakon says, you know, it's not a final resting place. Yeah, I think you could hear it as awakening. Awakening, but again, it's not an awakening that's out there somewhere, but an awakening that's right here. Don't look for awakening outside of the fire. Anything more about that? Well, again, that's sort of a deluded approach because it's got some idea of awakening that is sort of not happening with this stuff.

[34:20]

And I think sometimes we feel like, well, like awakening would be something, you know, awakening would be totally cool with no fire there. So we might have that idea of awakening. Whereas, you know, I think part of what this is about is sort of that there's this contradictory thing actually that suffering and awakening live together. in our lives. And that's where awakening has its work. That's where awakening has its life. It's working on our suffering. And also that, you know, that pain, you know, well, you can kind of distinguish pain and suffering. And so pain is something that happens to us

[35:23]

But suffering is not this process that we do and we keep it going. Even in the early records of the Buddha, after awakening, he still had lots of pain. He didn't get away from pain. And he didn't like it either. Because he would talk about it. I have a bad back. but before his death, he said, you know, I'm having some serious pain here. So it's, and I think, and again, I think there'd be mistakes trying to get away from that whole part of my life. Like pain is inflammation. There's not like really a problem with pain. You don't like it, but you know, but it's like, I think we want to, yes, if you want a full human life, it's going to have a lot of pain. And, You know, one place also I think sometimes our practice will differ from, you know, what I seem to see in Indian Buddhism.

[36:30]

It's like words like, you love, you love, and then if you lose somebody you love, it hurts. And there's not going to be a reason not to love anymore. You know, because sort of like, I mean, I don't know if this is exactly Zen or if this is just like, you know, art culture. But this isn't a real point of meaning for us that loss is not going to keep us from love. So we'd rather love in the flames, I think. Well, the sign doesn't always hurt. The flames don't always hurt. I'm bleeding. I'm an electric. stay with it and keep moving yeah and that there's a function there's a life of practice right and all that and um uh which and again it you know took me you know just how hard are they being here there is a um

[37:47]

Well, it's a lie. And there is a kind of freedom there. That it's not a freedom from all this stuff. It's a freedom in the midst of all this stuff. Some ideas of freedom are totally escapist. In some versions of Buddhism, nirvana sounds like something that has nothing to do with samsara. It's sort of a mysterious realm you go to when you get out of samsara. Whereas in our tradition, there's no nirvana apart from samsara. There's not a little bit of nirvana that's apart from samsara. Or a little bit of samsara that's apart from nirvana. Yes. Kind of a larger... I can hear a question about hermeneutics that I might do. Should I go to the end?

[38:52]

No, you can. Because I was just thinking yesterday, I was really struck by some of the imagery. I spent a lot of time studying Vasubandhu and thinking about some of the implications for Vasubandhu's thought or maybe political philosophy or aesthetics and all these things. that sort of would expand Yogicara thought. And one of the things that I was really struck by was that, yeah, it looks like Domitian is, like the real for Vasubandhu is really kind of central. Like he describes the real as basically causally efficacious phenomena, which are by definition specific specific appearances and that's like the exact opposite it sounds like that and then another example that seemed kind of interesting I'm just thinking about the kind of turning from like the other one was light because yeah I mean as you know I'm sure like you know luminosity is sort of equated with you know Dharmakaya which is exactly the opposite it seems like

[40:17]

It was kind of interesting. Yeah. I think Zen has that working already, that idea, that kind of metaphor of darkness equated basically non-discriminating consciousness and light, but to some extent, there will be consciousness, there will be discriminatory consciousness. It's not unique to that. Yes, yeah. So it's kind of, it's something happening. It might have some, like, releasing dows, that kind of energy, at least. Well, the reason I'm bringing that up, though, I was just curious, like, because I spent time studying at this Monastery in the fall, I ran into a number of, you know, both tempos and professors who pretty openly had, yeah, were very dismissive of these days of Buddhism in general as basically like just kind of starting from this muddled place, you know.

[41:42]

And I thought it was really interesting just in the context of, you know, you were saying like this sort of, the whole tradition of reading the five ranks as, well, I think it was, you were mentioning Goggins, like kind of brushing aside a lot of that, a lot of the weeds kind of accumulated. And I just started thinking about, like, how do you see, because the other thing is that it's pretty clear that what's happening today in modern cultures with Buddhism coming into them, especially in America, that it's much more akin to, you know, the assimilation of Buddhism in China. And so we're definitely, it seems like we're kind of just in this muddled place. And I was just curious if you had any thoughts about how, like what we can learn from studying, you know, what we can learn from the past in, in, in specifically like what we can learn from how things got a little muddled and sort of schematic or, you know, that, that commenting on commenting that we have any lessons to learn from that?

[42:56]

Um, well, one thing I think, I think you could say things, you could look at the whole tradition as being a muddling, you know, even an idiot. And, um, and that's like one view. And also, but also just like, um, but I kind of not, I'm not so into the idea that like the Buddha was perfect and then, and then it's just like a downhill trajectory after that. And, um, and I think there's stuff in early Buddhism that's just like really problematic and we've improved on it. All right. And, um, and, uh, and I guess I feel like overall we want to kind of, uh, be in touch with the tradition and be in touch with like, well, what's the living practice for us? You know, what's actually going to be alive and helpful for us? And, um, and that, and that, you know, we can take care of both of those. And, you know, so I think, I think it's really important to kind of be in touch with their tradition, um, be in touch with other traditions of Buddhism and how they evolve and, um, and feel where, what's resonant and alive for us.

[44:10]

And I don't think, you know, and I don't think we need to kind of like have, you know, our way doesn't have to be the way, you know, because this is what resonates for us. And like, oh, if you really do that, you know, try that. But, because, you know, there's a, how the practice will speak to us, you know, I think it's alive, it'll bear out, it'll survive, is my hope. I think also sometimes it's, you know, some of early Chinese Buddhism, you know, from a doctrinal standpoint, it's really muddled. It's really messy. And then there is some intent, but then I think it's like, I think we should be really careful about disparaging the practitioners that were engaged in that kind of muddled, those muddled attempts. You know, I think it's, you know, I mean, I think you know, texts don't necessarily convey the sincerity and the seriousness of their practice.

[45:15]

And, you know, I don't know, I just feel like we should, you know, just hold some of those, the kind of judgments that can get behind that kind of lightly. And, yeah, and to me, I think it's, I just think it's really great that Buddhism changes. And we'd be all in trouble if it didn't. So, you're going to see kind of, well, yeah, just all these different teachers, different languages, all this model. And I just brought to mind, there's just some things we chant There are forms that I... I mean, I, you know, I do it.

[46:19]

I don't know any better. But there's two that just come to mind, as you were saying, that, like, in the precept ceremony, taking a future in Buddha as the perfect teacher, Manga as the perfect teaching, in my when I took the precepts my teacher the student she wanted she changed it to be a perfect teacher a perfect life and I mean for me it's like I don't even I can't say it's perfect at all and like when I asked my She's like, it's more pointing towards like perfectionists and like the perfectionist with Praji and Armita.

[47:21]

I guess I kind of left that train of thought there. And maybe I feel really similarly about how we talked about I got to save all beings. And someone keeps getting brought up, like, actually, I got to save all beings. Myself. That could be official, at least. I don't know. Well, I feel like they kind of, I think, you know, it's important to kind of feel out what works work for us. And, um, and I feel like, um, you know, I, I like, like, you know, we're talking about the perfect teacher. Are we talking about the style we gave 2,500 years ago? Are we talking about just the actual, are we talking about awakening?

[48:25]

Are we talking about something that just belongs to Buddhism and nobody else has it? Cause I'm, I'm not so into that either. But if the, but if the perfect teacher could be, you know, if it could be something that, you know, everyone has some access to, or, you know, some part in. So we might have to kind of, like, find our own way of relating to some of these images and so on. And, you know, when we have a Buddha in Zendo and we bow to it, so what are we bowing to? You know, we bow to it. We bow towards the statue, but we're not really bowing to this physical object. And so is it something out there or something in here, something between us? And so I think these are good things to kind of work with. And also saving all beings, I feel like it's this kind of wonderful thing to work with. And I would never want to permanently qualify it. I think it's good to have this kind of, this impossible vow

[49:32]

and see how our heart relates to it and how our practice relates to it as we practice. That it doesn't have to... A vow doesn't have to be something we can do. A vow can be... It can express something about... You can express something that's in your heart, whether you can do it or not. And in some ways, you know, so, and so, you know, so I think some of these things, you just try them on for a while and see what happens. Like bowing also, some people come, like I came to San Francisco Zen Center the first time and I was just like expecting like zazen. And then, you know, actually we did, we did zazen. we were all standing up and then everyone's like putting their heads on the floor.

[50:33]

And I'm just like, Oh, I didn't come for this. What is this? And so then, but I think over the years I just kept bowing and I was like, well, okay, I'll do it. And then, and then like now I love bow. You know, so it's, um, so something, you know, I think, you know, you know, if we can't stand it, you know, we'll leave. And then, but while we're here, we can try it out. And, and that actually like, It might not be an explanation, but just the doing it has its own meaning, its own significance that can grow for us. What do you think is the difference between, I mean, sometimes I can't stand sitting Zazen, but I do it anyways because I don't know. I just don't know what else to do. Versus, you know, I can't stand this person or I can't stand this situation or something.

[51:42]

Yeah. I think it's interesting you put both side by side. I mean, that's good. And I guess I feel, for me, Zaza isn't something that... I guess for me it's really important to Zazen that it's not something I do that I feel like but don't do what I don't feel like. It's just like consistency. Yeah, I feel like it's that's just not how I relate to it. I wouldn't want to give my momentary inclinations that much power over my life. And that there's something about what it is for me that doesn't have to do with Well, it's studying preferences. So, like, rather than being something that's, you know, conditioned by preferences, it's there to help us move at our preferences. And, you know, in terms of, like, working with challenging people in our lives. For a while, we might try to get away from them.

[52:49]

But, you know, a nice thing about Tosahara will be that it's hard to get away from people in your life. And so it can... I think that's part of the, to me, it's one of the treasures of Tassahara Sangha practice is that no one can escape. So, well, I guess you can, but as long as you're here, we're pushed pretty close together. And that is, if you can turn in that, that's great. That's really helpful. So that, you know, the rocks rubbing on the stream become smooth, you know, this place. It makes sense when you start to find a hard connection to a moment.

[53:57]

I know, but we only have five minutes, so we better get to it. All right. Not falling into being or non-being, who can be in accord with this? Everyone longs to leave the eternal flux, not just to live in harmony, but to return and sit by the charcoal fire. So this not falling into being or non-being is kind of disinvoking the middle wave. Yeah. So, you know, it's just kind of the idea with, you know, Nagarjuna, his whole thing on this big exposition of emptiness is called the verses on the middle way. And, you know, Sarah was talking about Jiri, founder of Tentai, the way he talked about this dynamic, functional middle way. And a middle way that is... Well, for jury, this middle way is like if you have conventional truth and ultimate truth, the middle way is that they're both true, that the middle way and those two truths are all one, and they're all distinct.

[55:15]

And so it's not, there isn't like you don't land somewhere with the middle way. It's just, it's a kind of, it's one way and it's another way. You just have to have both. And that's actually true. It's how these things live for us. And this falling into being, I think, you know, in some ways, this is like our normal way of being stuck. And this falling into non-being can be our kind of, well, you know, I think spiritual bypassing could be an example of that. You know, when we use some kind of appeal to emptiness to get away from the, you know, stuck at difficult places in our life. So if we're angry, to try and somehow use emptiness to make our anger go away is a kind of way of falling into non-being, I would say. Everyone longs to leave the eternal flux.

[56:22]

So this is just kind of like, this is the basic impetus to practice, you know, to, you know, we, this eternal flux, this flow of impermanence, you know, not feeling like we can ever get established or, you know, land somewhere. And then this translation says, not just to live in harmony, but to return and sit for the charcoal fire. And, um, I really like this, not just to live in harmony and partially that's like, well, you know, yesterday I mentioned that harmony of difference and inequality for the sound okay, that I didn't really like harmony because it sounds kind of static. And I feel like that's sort of kind of pointing to this idea here is not to live in harmony. Um, not just to live in harmony with the eternal flux, and not just to live in a kind of harmony of the apparent and the real, but something more dynamic and actually alive.

[57:34]

And that this returning and sitting by the charcoal fire as being kind of an image of kind of basically just completely coming back to our life. And, you know, so sometimes you talk to people with no trace. So, you know, no trace being like, not like driving around some spiritual accomplishment or feeling of maturity or feeling of growth, but just like completely wholeheartedly entering into the struggle of this moment. And your maturity actually, your practice is actually expressed in like your complete, me entering that. And, um, and so there's also, so there's, and that that's actually, that's where ultimate truth has its life. It's just the totally being this person in this present and, um, completely, uh, exerting that wholeheartedly, you know, being there or, um, Suzuki or she was used to say something like, you know, completely combustion, complete combustion.

[58:51]

at this moment. I think we should stop. But you can feel free to ask questions after. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click Giving.

[59:30]

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