Okay, we'll start again. Good evening and welcome. So we're hoping that this will be the first of a series of community meetings that we will do to help you know about what we've been doing in terms of planning for Zen Center. And the hope for this evening is to set out some broad strokes. To say, okay, we did this, and then this led to this, and then this spawned three or four kinds of activity, and here's, in general, what's happening in them. And then to be quiet and respond to your questions around that. And if you can't hear, just put your hand up. Or move closer. So, in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, At the very back, Suzuki Roshi talks about practice coming to America, and he's talking about his vision was that this jewel, this Dharma jewel, 2500 years in the crafting, would come here and find its expression here, find its relevance, its efficacy,

[01:26]

and its way that it touches our hearts and minds and supports us in the life that we're living here in the United States. So this has been the steady heartbeat of Zen syndrome. How to preserve this jewel. How to stay true to its profiling teachings. How to let it be a Dharma light. And then at the same time how to discover and discover and discover as a continual beginner's mind practice how it expresses itself in the ever-changing circumstances of this world and in the ever-changing situations that Zen Center manifests in. And so I think about six or seven years we started what we called a visioning process. And we did a very wide survey.

[02:27]

Probably many of you were involved in that. And then out of that grew some goals. And these goals really reflected this idea of preserving, maintaining the core teachings, and then helping them to continue to develop. And the first two goals had a maintaining and develop and strengthen the core teachings for beginners, for continuing students, and for those who take on teaching roles. And then the second one was the phrase we've started to use is called widening the circle. How can that teaching reach out and touch more people? How can that teaching be continually rediscovered in a vernacular that becomes relevant and resonant in our society.

[03:28]

And then also, looking internally, how do we sustain the internal Sangha, the residential Sangha, the core trainings, monastic trainings that we do, that are at the heart of that practice. And then how do we create the financial wherewithal to do that? And then how do we create the infrastructure and sustain the infrastructure we already have to do that? So those were the five goals that came out of that. And then maybe Robert remembered the dates better than I do as he goes through it in a little bit more detail. Then after that, we developed what we called initiatives. OK, what does it take to do that? And we developed sort of areas of activity that we would focus on that would promote those goals.

[04:37]

And then we started to develop strategies. And I sort of think of it as that we have done the boring part, and now you get to do and be part of the fun part. We mined the information that we were given and deciphered what's being asked, and then laid that out, and then tried to give it some sort of organizational grid. And now we've reached the phase of, okay, how do we implement that? And how will the idea of, say, something like strengthening the core practice? How will we engage as a Sangha here at City Center, at Green Gulch, at Tassahara, in our network of affiliated Sanghas, in our developing our web presence?

[05:40]

How will they manifest the Dharma Jewel of Suzuki Roshi? So the goal starts to become a tangible set of activities. And that's what we want to create a dialogue around, feedback around, feedback around, so that the implementation embodies and expresses the collective wisdom of our sangha. That is, as we do this, we discover a common vision and a common voice and a common mode of activity that we can all feel and will be part of. So that's the idea of the initiatives and this point of strategic implementation. And then as Robert will outline in a couple of minutes, then that requires a certain organizational process to be ready to do that, to be able to do that.

[06:52]

So this evening, we don't want to do all the talking. We just want to set the stage, give you enough information and enough context that you can tell us how this sounds to you. If you think we've missed something, tell us that too. And then also ask the questions that you want to ask at this time. And I'm going to stop right there. So I have to say this because I just have to say this. Paul, the other day, Paul was at a board meeting and he told the story about how he came to Zen Center and he said that I came to the front door and knocked on the door and somebody opened it up. And then Steve told the same story. And told me I couldn't come in. Oh, they told you you couldn't come in. And Steve... got to the door, and they closed the door on him, and he had to wait out there.

[07:58]

And it's the same exact thing that happened to me when I came to Zen Center. About 100 years later, but yeah, I came to the door, and somebody said, well, we'll see if the Sheikah knows anything about it. Of course, they didn't know, but anyways, that's one way to come to Zen Center. But we all have our own stories, you know, and we all have our own our own vision of ourselves, our own vision of practice and how we fit in or don't fit in or where we fit in the circle. So when I came on as president a little over three years ago, Paul had been abbot for some years already, maybe three years already, and had been very involved in this visioning process, and it involved a lot of people, and so I came on as president, and actually I think theoretically it's a nice idea, you know, people getting together and thinking about the future and thinking about, you know, well, how can we actually make it as good as it could be?

[09:13]

How can we do what Paul was talking about, continue this legacy and make it possible for other people to have a place to come to the same way it was possible for us. To think about that with people and to develop our best ideas. I wasn't so involved in that process. Then when I was director, I never really saw this document. I became president and it was handed to me as, this is our strategic plan. And I wasn't really familiar with it. And all I knew was that if it was a plan, we better start working with it. So actually, Paul and Steve and the rest of the board has spent the last few years, really, and Susan and Greg and the other officers, Dana, Mark, have been very engaged with this because...

[10:18]

There was probably a reason why it didn't go out to the community. There was probably a reason why people didn't have this in their room. They didn't understand. They didn't have the goals memorized or anything like that. There was probably a reason. And I think as we started to work with it, we saw that actually we weren't all on the same page. And it was almost like a fruit that was on the tree, but it wasn't quite right. yet, you know? So we've actually, as Paul said, we've done a lot of work over the last few years, and it's just, it may still even be a little this side of being right, but it's, you know, I can appreciate that a lot of you might have heard little bits and pieces and wondered, well, what's that? Is somebody doing something? Is there a Zen Center going on over here that's, like, not connected to the Zen Center IMAT or something like that? Anyways, both Paul and I are really happy to be here and start this dialogue.

[11:23]

As Paul said, we don't want to talk too much up here. We want people to ask questions or express themselves at the same time. So maybe, Dana, we could pass a little. I have a little piece of paper that's going out, being passed around. You know, I'm glad Paul said something about Suzuki Roshi and how part of our effort is clearly making sure that something stays the same and another part of the effort is making sure that it can continue to evolve and grow. So as you get these pieces of paper, I just want to read you something that Suzuki Roshi said In his last recorded words, in his room that he died in, he said this to the people around him.

[12:25]

You shouldn't feel you need to do exactly what I did. You know, so you may be free to develop our way exactly as people want you to do. That is the bodhisattva idea. So he was clear. He didn't come to America so that people could just do whatever he was going to do. I mean, as Paul said, that's why he encouraged everybody to have a beginner's mind. So I encourage everybody to look at this with beginner's mind and look at the page with the colored arrows. And those are the goals that Paul just was talking about, those five goals. In a previous iteration of our plan, before we started working with it these last few years, it had seven goals. We brought it down to five.

[13:31]

That's two less to have to remember. Five on one hand. So as Paul said, we like to start there on the top hand right, with maintaining The core Zen training. Maintaining our training program. I mean maintaining our practice offering. That's what it's all about. And in some ways, everything is in service of that. So as you move to the right, having a community that actually can function. We're a fairly large community now. And we're a a community that's highly visible in the world. So how we support each other, how we take care of our practice centers, with what kind of systems and structures we have in place to be able to do that, that supports our training program. And as Paul said, that then gives us the ability to offer programs to the world. Offering programs to the world allows us to be supported, allows us to have a reciprocal relationship

[14:39]

with the people that we support in practice. That allows us to take care of our practice centers. And in turn, that allows the practice to continue. So those are interdependent goals. You take one out, and the whole piece doesn't really work. So as Paul said, it took us a while to even, I mean, there were times that even Paul and I didn't agree on basic stuff. So it took us all, all the leadership team that was working on this, and it was a group of Zen-centered leaders that really felt like they needed to clarify what this plan was all about and then take it back out to people. And we felt, I think now within the last six months, six, eight, ten, twelve months, that we're settled. We're settled enough for Paul and me and others, eventually we'll go out to Green Gold's Farm to Tassajara to stand up in front of people and say, we're behind this 100%.

[15:47]

We're settled with it. It is Zen-centered. It's good. So then on the back side of the page, Paul alluded to a little bit, and that is basically at the bottom of the other page, was a goal that says something like provide access and opportunity for people to practice. In that goal, we developed six initiatives, six projects, you could say, to do that. And we're calling those Widening the Circle Initiatives. Basically, we have six initiatives to take the practice in this goal, which is just to allow more people to engage with Zen Center, allow the boundaries of Zen Center to break down a little bit, allow it to open up a little bit, allow our teachers more opportunities, allow more students opportunities, allow people who can only get to Tassajara for one week during the summer every other year an opportunity to continue practicing.

[17:05]

So that's a key piece of this whole circle is, well, with a basis of training our people, having a healthy community, then we can offer more practice to more people, which is our mission, to embody, express, and make accessible the wisdom and compassion of the Buddha. We have these six initiatives. We're working on all of them right now. And we're going to talk about these more over the next series of meetings. And we'll decide exactly how we're going to do that, but we don't know. But we're going to actually engage with the community around these initiatives much more in the next year. This is our year to be in communication with everybody about about the whole plan, but especially these initiatives.

[18:08]

And so starting up on the right-hand corner, this is basically enhancing our programmatic offerings. Down below that is creating a virtual practice center on the Internet, a practice center where people who can only, who can't live, residentially and practice with the Sangha in this way, can actually maintain a connection and support through the internet, building an interconnected network of affiliated groups. There's between 50 and 70 groups out there in the United States. They're kind of on their own in some ways. They would like a little bit more connection. Zen Center can help with the connection. There's a meeting on May 22nd of this group.

[19:09]

And Michael and Susan are hitting this effort. Michael's a Tonto of what is called the Branching Streams group. And the Branching Streams is the network of, how many groups are in that? 60. Yeah. They are called the Sandy group. So then the next initiative there is supporting the development and establishment of teachers. And the next one is growing our community outreach programs. And the one at the top is developing a vision of practice for senior practitioners. There's a lot to say about each one of those. And I think maybe that's probably enough for us. We'd be happy to, at least at that level, at that high level, hear from you all.

[20:14]

And we could answer some specific questions, but it might be nice to just... Paul, do you have some questions you want to throw out there? I guess the first question I would have, how does that sound? Does that sound like the Zen center you want to be part of? Is there something missing? Is there something that we said that's confusing, that's not quite sure what we were talking about? No, why would you ask that? Well, we have reached out to Ireland. How wide?

[21:21]

That wide. That wide. As wide as As the United States? No, as wide as the... As wide as the internet. That's right. I would say, Gita, the very fact that you're sitting here thinking of yourself as a committed Zen student and an integral part of San Francisco Zen Center, it expresses the scope and the extent We are Zen-centered, the people who have come here. You look around and there's people from France and Germany and Ireland and India and China and many other countries. I think it's quite evident how wide we're reaching out. And then I think there's a wonderful organic way in which each of us comes in, enters the practice and then steps out and touches the people that we touch.

[22:29]

And some of us inevitably go back to our home countries and bring the drama with us. And I think what we've done over the years, we have this sensibility that we want to widen the circle, but we're going to discover how to do that as we go. It's like in a way you will be part of how this reaches out to Kerala. the same way I was part of how it reached site to Velfast. I think I've expressed it to you, Robert. I'm feeling a little bit separated from this very particular issue. And I'm not sure why and how Well, I have to say, I was in that same

[23:54]

place before I was in my position, you know? So the person who's the... until the person becomes the Tenzo, it's hard to make the food preparations like the center of your life. And I think that in some ways, to some degree, most people don't won't need to be thinking about this in their day-to-day activities. They may get involved in a program, they may notice something, but I think it's going to change Zen Center in some very incremental way, in the same way Zen Center today is not the Zen Center Suzuki Roshi came to in 1962. It's just a different thing altogether.

[24:58]

And it will be a different thing altogether 40 years from now. To make sure, though, that we don't squander this legacy that we take care of each other and to take care of those who have been practicing for a long time, those who will want to come to practice. I could see, stepping into my position, that it's a very complicated kind of mix of activities and objects and buildings and things going on here. There's a lot of moving parts. And it could possibly not be around.

[25:59]

It could just possibly, and that could be OK. It could be OK if there's no Zen Center 50 years from now. If that happens, that's going to happen. Should it happen because people aren't paying attention to where we're putting our time and energy? In some ways, I think some kind of structure allows people to set some priorities and make some decisions at some level in the organization. It's kind of like some structure allows the person who's planning the planning the meals to make sure that the meals get out on time, that the food is there when the crew comes in to make it. And this is, in some ways, another level of just planning to make sure that we don't say we want to go here and then we just go there because we're not paying attention.

[27:03]

So it's at a level of the organization that some people, I think, are going to find interesting and relate to and will... find that that's, oh, that's in some way, that supports me. And other people are going to say, I'm not connected there. I'm just, I'm doing my practice. I'm doing my, this is my situation. And that's okay. I think that's just fine. I don't think it's any problem. And then you might be in my seat like a couple of years from now. I hope everybody gets a chance to be the president and the abbot. in this room. But Zen Center needs to be around to make that happen. But then once you are in that position, you might think about it a little bit differently. You probably will think about it differently than I did. But I think it's our best effort to be conscious about what we're doing and how we're going forward as a community in a very complicated world.

[28:12]

doing our best. And it's even okay if people don't like these ideas, I think. I think that's what Paul is saying here. It's okay if people disagree and find that that's not really a good priority for the organization. And it's certainly okay if people haven't quite connected with it. But I encourage you to just stay open. Did you want to say anything else, Nadia? No, okay. I think it was back, I think there was a question back there first. No, is there? Go ahead, it's fine. And then I realized that I probably did one, but this is like years ago when I was doing work with Spirit Walk, giving a lot of diets and bias.

[29:23]

And so I would love to have like something that includes residents doing that kind of work. Not just for residents, like over here on a Wednesday or Saturday, but that includes the residents, kind of like engaging with that in a sort of experiential way. In a way, Marta, what you're talking about is this continual process that we're in. How is the Dharma expressed and how does it touch us deeply and what modalities can we use in combination with the traditions that we've inherited and the dyads, the triads and repeated questions and all the wonderful things that we keep dreaming up now that are becoming part of the body of our practice. I think they express this very form of activity. Certainly, in teaching in a whole variety of ways, I find different modalities effective to different audiences and in different situations.

[30:35]

I guess I feel really fortunate that I've been I'm wondering if it's challenging for people who haven't been as familiar with that to connect to a couple of conversations. So I'm just wondering if maybe You can either look at one initiative and talk about some specific things that have been taking place in the last few years and talk about some specific things you're thinking about in the future, or maybe just do some bullet points on these initiatives for people so that they can actually hear that some really specific things have been taking place and that are really exciting and that there are these future activities that are really tangible in a way in some sense. I don't think we were going to do that tonight. But we will get more into that in either a future meeting.

[31:53]

Also, I think starting this Saturday, if there's not a residence meeting... Oh, one day sitting. That's right. If there's not a one day sitting or a residence meeting, I and possibly other Zen Center people will be in the dining room between service and the morning lecture to talk to people about the things that we're bringing up tonight in another meeting. So I'll make regular announcements about that on Saturdays. And that's also a place where we can get into more detail about these things. And as we said earlier, you know, Our vision is that this is one of a series of dialogues and that also, you know, we're going to try to, hopefully, we'll have an audio tape of this and maybe even a video tape. And then we'll post them on the web and we'll set up a community site where people can, you know, respond and dialogue with each other on the web.

[33:04]

That is our hope, is to keep conversation, a dialogue going around this that everybody can feel included. And then also along this, with that, we will post relevant documentation that we've generated over the past several years that will give you, then you can read through that and hopefully it will make more sense to you. And also when the parts that don't make sense, you can ask about them either at future meetings or on that site. I'm wondering about expanding the boundaries of Santa Santa and growing and so on and so forth. If that is connected with any idea to what is for Buddhism, because it seems to me like this is sort of about the birth of a congenial sort of organization.

[34:09]

I would say we are and we aren't. In one sense, our practice is waking up to being alive. It's the human experience and how to live it in a way that causes ourselves and others less suffering and brings into our lives more of a sense of joy and intimacy with our all being and all beings. And then we do that within the Soto Zen tradition. But in terms of proselytizing, One story that's always stuck in my mind that I heard many, many years ago was a story of Suzuki Roshi standing in line to go to the movies and someone coming up to him and saying, what are you into?

[35:20]

Just the way you stand in line, you know, it's so impressive. I think that's our kind of proselytizing. We don't distribute leaflets door to door. So far. But it's more we try to embody and make accessible, as our recent statement says. One of the initial seven goals that was part of the vision plan had to do with diversity and multiculturalism. And I see only one place in which the word diversity appears on this first side with the arrows. enhanced diversity, sustainability, and training in the work practice environment. But I'm wondering how, or whether, in looking at these six areas for widening the circle, diversity is being kept in mind as something that would permeate everything that we do.

[36:22]

Because I think it's important for us to think about that in each program and each initiative, and I'm just wondering how that's being held. Right, right. there were two goals that became integrated into other goals and became five goals. And one of the goals was to support the diversity and multicultural initiative of the San Francisco Zen Center. And the other goal was to support the network of affiliated sanghas. And we felt that actually both of those goals were much stronger and strengthened if they were integrated into a community-wide effort. And that to have the diversity and multiculturalism goal standing out there on its own was in some ways a statement and a powerful

[37:31]

statement of our intention. In another sense, it didn't say that this is going to be integrated into, just like you said, integrated into the fabric of life here at Zen Center. So I think that was an effort to actually make that goal more powerful in the five goals. On the other side, with the initiatives, I would say that that goal is within all of those, is enhancing and informing all of those initiatives. And we are currently working on these right now, at various stages. development on these, but I would say that the diversity and multicultural initiative or what was something that was fairly separate from my perspective seems to be very integrated into people are thinking about it as part of all of these initiatives here and not calling it a separate

[38:59]

separate initiative. And we have to help each other remember to do that at the same time. So it's an ongoing process, definitely, for us. I do see a shift in attitude in the center around this and more embracing of an understanding that it's really important. And I guess we do just all need to keep thinking about it. Right, yeah, yeah. and making the kind of efforts that you made Saturday on it. Todd? I think these initiatives are all really great, and I support them. But I know that a lot of these things cost money, and I know that there's been a concerted effort to inspect one of the strengthened current contributed and earned revenue streams while developing new income sources.

[40:04]

So there's been a lot more attention placed onto fundraising, and I know there's a capital campaign. And one of the things that concerns me about this is what I perceive to be, even in the past eight years that I've been here, it seems like there's been a conscious decision to kind of scale up our operations, and it has an impact on the culture. It kind of feels a little bit more corporate, and I often find that very discouraging. And so I was wondering if you could speak to that. It's very interesting, you know, when you decide, let's be purposeful about what we're doing. How do you know that that purposefulness will enhance what you're doing rather than diminish the Dharma jewel that you've received?

[41:06]

How do you know that trying to create an infrastructure, an organizational map of what you're doing will dehumanize this practice that's really based on heart-to-heart intimacy? how do you know if you have a strategy about fundraising that you won't forget that the Dharma is about living and living together with kindness and generosity and succumb to a more materialistic view of the world these are real challenges and I think as we start to endeavor to do what we're doing, we want to hold those challenges in our hearts and minds. And remember that it is easy to deviate, that it is easy to get caught up in an ambition.

[42:09]

And to be able to take our activity and continually link it back to the Bodhisattva realm. that is our aspiration and even in our fundraising you know we keep close to our hearts and minds that we give the Dharma away and that if someone wants to give us something in return wonderful and if they don't we still give the Dharma away you know it's not a product that's for sale. That is not the workings of a Zen center, that is not the workings of a Dharma center. And the question, and these other questions are questions that we will try to hold in front of us, that we will try to help us to refine our efforts.

[43:17]

You know, this is the spirit of our practice, is that we move forth, entering new territory, fully informed by the teachings and the traditions that are there and have been given to us as a guidance. Go ahead. Yes. Thank you for joining this meeting. I know at my time here, I felt a real longing to have more of a voice and to have more avenues to kind of express myself wholeheartedly. And that's why I really love that you have this meeting where you can kind of come out and ask questions. And hearing Todd's hard talk question, it makes me feel kind of alive hearing these interesting questions. So I don't know if that fits in with any of these five. But I would love to be a part of a Zen Center community where people who weren't teachers and were a little lower on the higher, you could feel empowered or feel they had more of a voice.

[44:23]

I feel like I've learned a lot from dharma by people who were not layordained or weren't teachers. I'd love to hear more from them. In my time at Tassajara, there was a lot of that. You got to hear people's voices and people who gave a lecture, there was question and answers right after. I just wonder if that fits in with this at all. We're hoping that the community site that Tim is working on will offer a place for anyone and everyone to say what they have to say. I think it's a great step in that direction, and I also want it as a way. How important is that to the people in charge to get this kind of involvement? Well, I think we're not going to be successful on any of this if we don't expand the level of involvement of all people in the Sangha and allow them to come forward and contribute what they can contribute.

[45:26]

And not wait until they've been at Zen Center for 30 years to be able to offer something. So I think that's absolutely necessary for this to be successful. I told Tanya that we were going to go into details, but it's a little bit appropriate here in our Dharma Education Initiative. Within that initiative, we have a group that's been working for about a year called the Programming Task Force, and they've developed a whole roster of new kinds of programs that we're going to start rolling out in the next year, offering. We'll start slow, but build a whole range of things from EPP style groups to small groups, special interest small groups, groups led by maybe practitioners

[46:36]

just like you. So it's really going to require Zen Center to not only open up wide, but also it will affect kind of the vertical, too. I know it will. It has to, because we will need to engage the energy of everybody, like you and Todd and Tanya and Carol and everybody in this room, actually, to do this. And that's part of it. It's not, it's to enliven our practice and it's to... Yeah. Maybe that's enough. Yeah. Avi? So what Todd brought up actually is, for me, it's one of my concerns when I look at everything that's going on. And particularly it has to do with, you know, the scaling up and ambitiousness of reaching out. On a very practical level it requires quite a bit of investment in technology and people and all these kind of things.

[47:41]

And what I worry about is that we will create a situation where the cost of doing that actually make us start, make us actually not able to offer the Dharma freely. you know, the costs are rising, the costs are rising, we need to associate the cost with, the price with offering the government. It creates this situation where basically we're restricting what we can offer, in that kind of sense. So I just want to put that out there because for me it's always something that comes up, is like, okay, are we looking at this whole thing and saying, well, if we do it this way, when it creates this, you know, cycle, Could you hear that question?

[48:43]

What Alia was talking about was, well, some of these are beautiful and wonderful ideas, and to implement them, there is a cost involved. And is that cost involved going to have a significant influence on Zen Center and the values and the way it operates. And as I said before, I think that's a question we have to hold in front of us and ensure that it doesn't quite literally corrupt our essential ideals and our mission statement. Things we want to do do have a cost involved. It costs money to keep the lights on in this room. One of the things maybe we'll post on the community site, which the new chair of the board, Ed Sattison, sent me last week, was a talk by Suzuki Roshi on money. The gist of what he said was, money is not dirty.

[49:55]

If you think money is dirty, your thinking is dirty. Money is a tool. And, of course, it can draw us into a materialistic view of the world. As I was saying earlier, if we get caught in that view, we've gone astray. It's a tool. And hopefully, making the offerings we make... You know, the early heritage of Buddhism is that monks went out and walked... And people gave them food. In early Buddhism, as in the tradition is still carried through today, you don't actually ask for the food, it's given to you. So there's something in that spirit that we're obliged to stay true to. This is not a process of finding the way to create the most revenue. This is a process of offering the Dharma.

[51:00]

And in the process of offering the dharma, being skillful about how we generate the income to do that, to sustain that activity. And yet it's a challenge. You could say there's a tension there. But that's, to my mind, that's the nature of our practice. I don't know if you want me to say this, but I'm going to say this because this project isn't coming out of an arbitrary good idea someone had. And it's not about an ambition to do bigger and better and scale up and all of that. It's actually a response to the fact that the way things have been being done can't actually meet the basic rising costs of us living together and providing the Dharma.

[52:04]

It isn't working anymore in the way that it has worked. So this effort came from many things. Wanting, of course, to find all the best ways to make sure the Dharma that we've been given flourishes and is offered to more and more people. But we actually had to look at cut-shift things to meet this situation. So this is a There were a lot of conversations about what's the best way to look? Where can we actually meet this rising cost of not much upscaling, really, just living like we're living? How do we meet that need? And the recommendation was to do certain things, which we have been taking on fully. And yes, there are investments involved in trying to say, OK, if we put a little bit more professional expertise here for a bit, can we ground that area enough to take root, to bear the fruit that's going to support these wonderful centers and all of our efforts to make the Dharma available and to be trained and to train others.

[53:09]

So this isn't arbitrary. This isn't coming out of, you know, someone just had a good idea, let's go change everything. It's actually a response. And as these meetings go on, I'm sure we'll be able... to show you some of the physical and financial realities of this and where we think that the efforts in these particular areas will bear the fruit. And so I just wanted to add that element that didn't want it to seem arbitrary. I also want to thank you all for the work you put into this. Obviously you've been working very hard and these are really great ideas. What I feel is missing, or what I get a sense of what's missing a little bit, is more of an expressed commitment to social justice issues. I notice that there's a resonance in some of these categories to sort of implicit commitment to social justice issues, but I personally would love to see something a little bit more expressed on issues of non-violence, on issues of diversity and multiculturalism, on issues of poverty and

[54:20]

the suffering going on in the world and the spirit of generosity and compassion that we as a sangha and as a community can bring to that. And I'm just wondering if you could point my way a little bit to see where in this matrix that commitment is, or really more generally, do we really have a commitment to social justice issues? I think as we start, as we talk more about our programming vision, that people are going to see there's a lot of that stuff in there. That that's actually widening the circle means that we have to actually engage with people on the issues that they're struggling with, that they're practicing with, that they're suffering with. Zen Center, it's always a balance. Where is our expertise? Where is our practice going to actually meet the world in the right situation?

[55:23]

I think it's also in growing our community outreach programs. And there's a lot underneath each one of these initiatives and goals. And I just want to say that these are fairly general on purpose. I mean, they're very general. Expanding Dharma offerings. You could hardly be more general than that. But it's in some ways allowing whatever is appropriate to happen there. So in some ways it's us saying we want to move in a direction and then the next thing you know the the door is open on Saturday when somebody walks up as opposed to being closed and locked, you know, because somebody said, oh, I know that's our intention here is to be more accessible or something like that.

[56:27]

So it will start to work in ways that are no doubt will be organic and are not, we do not have. We don't have the staff or the funding to have a real corporate culture. We just don't have it. We're not a wealthy organization. We do a lot for a very small amount of money, relatively. It's a struggle for us to just keep the furniture patched up. We're not trying to be upscale, but I can appreciate those comments. from people but in some ways these are this this is not an effort to be upscale like Paul said it but it was an effort for us to take the opportunity to think maybe dream a little bit to think a little bit heroically to think well what could we be what could we offer the world what could what could it if we if we set our intention out there so so in some ways we there

[57:37]

This is very intentional without a tremendous amount of detail, but as we talk about this over the next year, you'll see that we have done, there is some detail there, and there's already been a lot of work done in those areas, but more to be done. Did you want to say anything, Paul? No, I think that's great. In regards to having a hierarchical organization of a certain number of people, at least in my experience, there's a communication dynamic that occurs, and essentially the process of getting something done in itself is like a

[58:53]

in relation to communication and in relation to collaboration. And since collaboration itself has a fundamental involvement with the size of the group, the self-working, so what Ali is saying is almost like, in a hierarchical organization, once it reaches a certain size, the fundamental nature of communication prevents that hierarchy from operating effectively, communication slows down at certain points. And it's interesting to look at this picture, and you have a distributed collection of small circles. And I'm just wondering, isn't that an excellent way to organize a system for communication purposes, self-organized groups that are distributed that are communicating with each other at certain junctures? and they're small enough so they're independent, they're like successfully moving, like when you're in a military situation in the field or whatever, you have a really great plan and everything works out, but what's most effective is to have small teams that are operating on intention and based on some aspiration or whatever, but knowing there's limited resources, there's all these things going on, and it's really taken into account, and it's about capitality, and you can't just

[60:21]

It's like, even the situation here is a really effective highlight on how a web, single-point web communication is also effective. All we've been doing is we've been affecting this situation in a web context. There's a whole bunch of specific details, like specifics, like Tanyaks for specifics, things that people actually need to know in order to assess. Like Nadia said, am I interested in this? Is this something that I want to get involved with? But we can't know that in a bigger context because the information flow is not operating in a way that's fundamentally helpful. Whereas I think the internet provides solutions in its manifestation entirely. It's a distributed network grid. It's a fabric of interconnectedness. That sounds familiar to me. The thing is, at one point, you get a whole bunch of people. It's like when there was a fire at Tassajara.

[61:21]

So what happened? You have one long page with a whole bunch of threads. And what happens is all the information gets mangled and lost in that. But see, can you condense it down into a question you'd like to share with the group? Yeah. But I guess the question is, what's the most fundamentally interesting way to organize these groups of people, or distribute information to groups of people such that It is organic, like I mentioned, and it is operating in a way that's just more in alignment with natural forces as opposed to replicating man-made, constructive forces with higher control. Yeah. I can appreciate that. If you or anybody has an idea how we can do that, we would actually like the conversation to continue. Oh, yeah? Okay. Okay. Well, maybe we could talk after this or some other time. I'm not so sure if I see what you're seeing.

[62:23]

We're going to go for about another seven or eight minutes. We'll end at 8.45 in honor of those who need to get to bed and get up early in the morning. Yes, Peter. With our new president and the It was mentioned that in order to change and improve, we as a country and as individuals will have to make sacrifices. It's necessary. So I was wondering, over the course of these conversations, if that element of both collective and personal sacrifices... Well, this may be tooting our own horn a little. One way to think about Zen Center, in particular the core residency, is that you have a group of people who essentially work for nothing. You know? I mean, we get room and board and enough money to kind of cover the basics.

[63:32]

Health care. And health care. And not to say that that isn't something but It would be a long stretch to say that people are here living at Zen Center, working for Zen Center because of the abundance, the financial and material abundance. So in a way, there is a sacrifice there. I mean, this is part of the treasure of Zen Center, that it has drawn so many wonderful people who were willing to make this kind of sacrifice for years and years. I think it's the heritage of Zen Center and of practice. I think that the world is also calling us to widen the circle, too. It's calling us to... So, what we do have is the ability to direct our life's energy here or here.

[64:39]

I think the world is also asking for Zen Center, for the community of practitioners to maybe, in some ways, like Suzuki Roshi said, to respond to it. The world is crying out there for something that a lot of people are suffering, and I think this effort is not, I think, the intention or the fundamental intention here is not just to make a bigger and better Zen Center, but to actually respond to the needs of the world. And the world is asking for support in many large and small ways, moment by moment. And if we are just taking care of our own little thing happening inside the walls of Zen Center here, that we're not actually, you know, Suzuki Roshi could have stayed in his temple. He didn't. He went across to a place, foreign land, he didn't even know anything about.

[65:47]

So that's also our legacy, is to respond to the suffering world. So how we do that is kind of like we have some broad intentions and directions here, but that's part of this you could say vision, is to be able to, is to put us in a position to respond, not turn away from the suffering world. Yes, Lee, sorry. And I don't know if Everybody knows how many letters we send out to prisoners all over the United States in books. And what's been happening in the last couple of years is that there are people that are writing from inside who are saying, one of the men I talked to here talked to me about Buddhism.

[66:55]

I don't know anything about it, but I don't want to suffer anymore. Can somebody from your place tell me about Buddhism? Or somebody just this week said, my Sally has a book you sent him. I'd like the same book. If you send that to me, it's easier to get along with. And it's like, I realized, just this week, I was realizing how many people are practicing teaching that are incarcerated that wouldn't have access to this. if there weren't Dharma centers like ours that were supporting them to do this. And it's so meaningful to that. So I see us already. We've been doing this in many ways. We do a lot of social justice stuff that isn't so very good, say, or maybe even noticeable to people. We make lunches once a week for people that we take to businesses in the city where people are hungry.

[68:01]

the ones we make bag lunches. We have groups. We have a big group in St. Quentin, at Gray, and our Abbott Steve has been involved in, and many other practitioners here go on Sunday. I wonder how those people know about this. Because it isn't happening in this building. It's out there. So I wanted to say we've been doing this, and I hear that you want to expand this in some other ways. And I feel very supportive. And I also want more details. I have a lot of questions. But I just wanted to bring this up. So thank you. I really thank you for saying that we're responding to the world. It's our best effort. And financially speaking, if our reach exceeds our grasp, we start bouncing checks.

[69:07]

So it's pretty direct and immediate limiting system. But I feel that if our response is appropriate, it will be. I have faith that if our response is appropriate, that it will be met in kind with response. That's why we're asking everybody for help. We are. I think this is the start of this communication is asking everybody for help to help us all figure it out together. Because even though you said, I don't know if you were actually talking about Zen Center as a hierarchical organization, but actually there's a few positions, but For the most part, Zen Center is a very flat organization, and decisions get made at the edges of the organization, not centrally. It's kind of a hybrid organization, but it's a very flat, and I think that's its strength.

[70:16]

That's why it's still around here after almost 50 years, where a lot of other organizations have come and gone, intentional communities. have come and gone, and ours remains strong and resilient. I think that's because it's happening out there. It's happening at the edges of the organization. I think that's another reason why you don't see, like Lee said, what's happening. Because there isn't a central person standing up there and saying, you do this, you do this, you do this, and this is what we're all going to do. It's happening in little projects all over the place. Sometimes I think that people think that Zen Center is some kind of hierarchical organization where Paul and somebody else, or who knows, God knows who is directing other people, and I don't think you have a whole lot of control over what you're doing. There are far too many meetings for that to be. Okay.

[71:21]

So, we need to stop. And if you have more questions, just post them on the community site. And we'll take it from there. And you can also ask for information. And that actually would be a big help to us. The first vision plan we made was 52 pages. And then since then, we've generated A lot more documents. There's a lot of material there. When Robert and I were talking about this, we were saying, let's not overwhelm people with material and data. Let's not do that. Let me just say, Paul, to clarify, on our website, there's a new tab at the top that says Community. By, let me see, today's Wednesday. By Friday, if people click on the Community tab, There will be a blog there that references this meeting, this group, and will be an ongoing place where we put materials related to this topic.

[72:29]

So we don't have a name. If anybody has an idea for a good name for this kind of effort, please offer it to me. But it will be pretty obvious, I hope. There will be a blog there on the community section of the Zen Center website. And we hope that people continue to stay engaged in the conversation. Dana? Just so people know, the community site is for members. But if you're not a member, there is a way for you to sign on as a guest. So it is open to everyone. And you could consider becoming a member, if you're not already. OK. So thank you very much for coming and to be continued. Thank you. Thank you.

[73:18]

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