This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I found this book that I really recommend. It's by Mu Song, who is a contemporary Buddhist teacher. And it's called Exploring the Heart Sutra, the Heart of the Universe, Exploring the Heart Sutra. So we repeat this sutra over and over again. And so sometimes we just are sort of rotely, you know, and then, and, you know, it sort of fades from our sort of applying it to self-inquiry or reflection. And then it'll come back again and something will be fresh about it. And I think this is one of the reasons we... chant it over and over it has a list of all these teachings and these doctrines and it's a kind of you can actually think of it as a way of remembering them so this sutra this main sutra of Mahayana Buddhism recently Jean Natier is a Buddhist scholar and she did some research on it because

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there are different versions of it in Chinese very different versions so she was trying to figure out why that was and she found out that actually it was originally written in Chinese even though it's considered for many years to be a Sanskrit sutra so what it turns out is that a Chinese Buddhist monk in the 6th century 7th century wrote it and at that time in China there was a lot of turmoil and he just as a way to kind of get out of that situation and also to sort of out of curiosity he went on a pilgrimage through China and through India it's really complicated and it turned out he went on this pilgrimage for 16 years And what they think is, on the way, he compiled the Heart Sutra and then translated it into Sanskrit as a gift at one of the monasteries he stayed in in China.

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I mean, in India. So then, everyone thought there was a Sanskrit version. But it's actually... So this is part of our deep, deep, important history. And... I didn't know anything about this. It was a wonderful article Jan Natia wrote about her research. And it's very fun to read. So the person, this monk was named Xuansang. My pronunciation is not that great, but he's known for this pilgrimage. And there's all sorts of legends about it that you can read. So this important and maybe the most important sutra was written. about a thousand years after the Buddha's death. And it is compiled from material that was written about 700 years after the Buddha's death. So these traditions, you know, they move.

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I mean, this is true. I studied theology, and if you look at the history of Christianity, it's much more complicated than we even think it is now, you know? There were lots of different schools and traditions flying all over now. And that's true in Buddhism as well. So it starts in this context, this place in history, this time period. And, you know, there's all kinds of things that come before it. Like, where did the Buddha, what was his inspiration? What was he studying? Who were his teachers? But we sort of go from the Buddha forward. And then even when we do that, then his teaching ends up being interpreted. And there's actually part of this story is that, I don't know if you know about the Naga people, they're associated with snakes and they're often depicted as snakes or as dragons.

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And it turns out there was a tribe called the Naga who actually used snakes in their religious tradition. So the large sutra and perfect wisdom is supposed to come from... It's just like you just keep looking back and you find out all these things. So now, in Western Buddhism, we're, of course, interpreting Buddhism through our cultural understanding. And in other cultures, it's being interpreted from those understandings. And I read a description of theology, and I think this is true of Buddhism too, that it's the history and the study of interpretations of interpretations. So when we come to something like the Doctrine of Emptiness, I could find one mention of it in the Pali Sutras when I was trying to find where did this come from.

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And... I think it's what the Buddha says is something like, for the one who sees everything is empty, then, you know, they will be free. That's it. So empty is the world is the name of this short sutra. But one way to analyze it and describe it is through our experiential, the experiential level. And that's how I've been trying to understand it, partly because my Buddhist practice has been very much experiential. We emphasize that at Zen Center and meditation, work practice. And we study, but it's all kind of combined. So Musang's description of emptiness is the integrated perception... of the interactivity of relative reality or individual consciousness and absolute reality or the visionary cosmos.

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So I'll read that again. The integrated perception of the interactivity of relative reality or individual consciousness here and absolute reality, or the visionary cosmos. And one way you can see the visionary cosmos as things beyond our reach, our direct sort of experience. And I think of this as the intersection of time and eternity. And time is kind of what's measurable, and eternity is what cannot be measured. So relative reality, our kind of daily experience, moves from the past, because that's how we got here, through the present and into the future in this kind of horizontal way. And absolute reality infuses it vertically.

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And this is a very traditional interrelationship in spiritual traditions. And you'll see it in the cross section. of Christianity, and you'll see it in other symbolism. There's this inter-activity, the way they meet. So in one way you could see it as absolute reality going along like this, but as relative reality is going like this. But I actually think it's a spiral. These things aren't static. you know sometimes life is going along but it's not you know quite leaving the past it's not quite in the present it's not quite in the future and so absolute reality and relative reality have this way of moving in this spiral is how I understand it so this that's the word this infusion of relative reality with absolute reality

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is the action of emptiness. Now, the Heart Sutra's teaching is on emptiness as an antidote to attachment. And it's particularly our attachment to our perception of our self. And in the Heart Sutra and in Buddhism, this is the five skandhas. The form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness. And Shogun mentioned that in his talk the other night too. And the five skandhas are considered to be the source of suffering. And they're also the source of our attachment to... teachings and practices of Buddhism and to our interpretation of them, our mouse. So what the Heart Sutra does is it offers this deconstructive approach, but it's in this affirmative context of Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, who expounds the sutra.

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And I was saying to someone today, that's very, you find that in the Diamond Sutra as well. The Buddha is talking and the character in there is Subhuti, and he's associated with loving kindness, but it's a wisdom sutra. And we chant the Metta Sutta, loving kindness, and it starts, this is what should be accomplished by the one who is wise, and one who has obtained peace, which is a wisdom attainment. So I think the perspective of emptiness is uncomfortable because it rests in uncertainty. Even though we think we know what's happening on this level, we don't know. And even though we accept this other level, it doesn't exactly give us anything to hold on to. But we still try to do that. So this uncertainty, how do we negotiate it? And I think that it is through a form of what I call positive doubt.

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Always being willing to inquire. So Musung writes, to accept that the universe is random or that uncertainty is its prime operating principle requires a huge emotional adjustment. The Heart Sutra offers us insight into the nature of an ultimate reality through intuitive wisdom. So usually we think of intuition as something spontaneous, you know, and it comes out of nowhere almost. But actually the root of the word intuition means to contemplate, to observe, and to consider. So in some way, deep intuition comes from our experience and how we relate to our experience. Intuition is a kind of impulsive way of dealing with our experience.

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But this kind of intuitive wisdom is that kind where you have an insight and you say, hmm, and you contemplate, you observe, you consider. Well, okay, what does this mean? How do I apply this? Where does it come from in me? What did I know? And usually it opens up this positive doubt more in Korea. And what I think is, you know, there's all these Zen stories about the person who has spontaneous enlightenment or the koans where suddenly they see everything. And almost always these stories say, and then he studied with his teacher for many years. Or he went to the forest or a cave or on a pilgrimage. So these deep insights are always beginnings and beginning again.

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And that might sound not so wonderful, but you're beginning again from there, not from here. So it's always, you're always sort of renewing something. So the Heart Sutra is, I think often, and I would also say can be misunderstood as negating the concepts and the doctrines that it lists rather than addressing our attachment to them and to our own interpretation of them. I think that that's what the Heart Sutra is saying. You know, yes, there's this and this and this, but... No, don't think that this and this is this. It's that affirmation and negation at the same time. So I think that even if we don't quite understand emptiness or how it works, that studying it, reading books like this, looking into the sort of philosophical, analytical aspects of it.

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I read one book and Actually, I can't remember the whole title, but it's something of emptiness. And he goes into this whole thing about writing the letter A on the board, and if the A wasn't there, then it would be empty. And I understood what he was saying, but it was helpful anyway. So I think looking at all those different ways that emptiness is described, it's very helpful. And to just keep inquiring into our attachment to what we want emptiness to be, or what we think it is, or what someone else thinks it is. And I think, again, this is why we keep chanting the Heart Sutra. So you're repeating this affirmation through negation. And I think that this becomes a continuous reconciliation.

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And it's between our effort and our mistakes, between our self-justification and our self-knowledge, between what we think we already know and what we don't know. It's always this reconciliation. So what Musang says is, fear and confusion seek out things to cling to. And each clinging brings about its own particular perverted view to further cloud the vision. Rooted firmly in the wisdom of emptiness, the bodhisattva has no such hindrance. She does not mistake the unreal for the real, the conditioned for the unconditioned, the relative for the absolute. So I think this is very hopeful, and it also may be one of the most difficult things for us to be hopeful that without our attachments, or our clinging, that we can continue to live ordinary lives that are imbued with freedom and trust.

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And this continuous reconciliation that I think emptiness is informing. So that's the very short introduction to the Heart Sutra. have any questions, comments? Yep. Could you say if there is a relationship between emptiness and stillness and how those two are related? Yes, I think they are related. And when we sort of try to interfuse, you know, one thing with another, we have to be careful.

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I just want to say that. But it's what I think, it's what Musang says. It's the integrated perception that allows for that stillness. It's not emptiness is stillness or emptiness gives stillness but it's that integrated perception of relative and absolute reality that gives that stillness or equanimity like he says about the bodhisattva doesn't mistake the unreal real and so on that's a form of equanimity so is that what you ask kind of more along the winds of when you said the spiral intersecting that way that gave me an image of movement and her moves I guess so I was trying to match that up with stillness well you can't stop things right and so it's some it's within that you're not thrown off you accept

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that along this continuous line, there'll be things going on. And that, it's also infused with this absolute reality, makes all that less anxiety-provoking. And actually, in a lot of the teachings, they talk about Buddhist teaching being a cure for stress. They use that word. So that's what I think that that understanding helps with. A few weeks before I came to Tassajara, I came across a story. And the story was about that teaching of the Heart Sutra that happened, I think on Vulture Peak Mountain. And it was attended by 80 disciples of the Buddha. And apparently after Avalokiteshvara gave the teaching, it is said that many of them had heart attacks.

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And then another view said, maybe a more cynical view, suggests that maybe they were just disgusted and walked away because the Buddha thought that the disciples were still attached to the teachings in a way, and so he wanted to give his teaching, or he wanted Avalokiteshvara to give his teaching. What do you think, have you ever heard that? Yeah, actually, in some of the stuff I was looking at for this, they told, there was that story. And one of the things I think that, you know, that isn't how the Hardshoot group, where it really came from, so that's kind of a story that's reimposed on it. But what I think that story is trying to say is that, you know, not everyone is going to, understand and maybe they don't need to and that was really what I understood the story as a Buddha said that's okay let them go you know that this isn't the teaching for them or they're not ready or something and one of the things I almost think is our mistake in Buddhism is to think somehow we've got something special that everybody else should have you know that this is the best thing ever and but it really isn't for everyone

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And that can be arrogant too. But it's hard. I think if you, in fact, as I was writing this, I was thinking that a lot of the reason that we don't study these concepts and that sort of thing in our daily life, it's because it's so difficult. We have to question ourselves all of the time. when we study the teachings because that's what they're doing. That's how it works, the Dharma works. And it's so difficult to deconstruct all of our assumptions and everything that way. So you have to be able to have the strength of what I call faith or is relying on compassion as part of the teaching. about wisdom.

[22:43]

And then you can stand it, maybe. So I don't know if that answers me. I was just curious. I thought it was interesting. Yeah, it's a good story. Yes? In the beginning of your talk, you said sort of something about the experiential nature of this. And I guess I feel like I... I relate to this, like a lot of Buddhist philosophy, I guess, as I understand it, is very conceptual to me, right? Like we're deconstructing our conceptual framework, right? So that, and there's this idea that we have, well, there's this ultimate reality and our perceptions of it are only this sort of fragment of it. So we can't, you know, grasp this ultimate reality. But I don't, I certainly haven't had, not I haven't done a lot of really deep meditation practice, maybe like. through practice period, I'll have some experience that I haven't had yet. But I've never had an experience where I would sort of recognizably be like, oh, that's emptiness, you know.

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Like in a way that I can when I can say, well, with mindfulness, I can say, well, okay, so this was being in a daydream. Like I was just imagining this entire conversation with my friend or my mother or whatever, and I saw the whole thing vividly before me, and oh, now here I am looking at the wall. And that's a real distinct difference to me, experientially mindful, present moment awareness versus a daydream sort of awareness. But regarding emptiness, that's a very conceptual thing for me. It makes sense, but there's no experiential basis for it. And I'm just wondering if you could speak to that a little bit. Well, let's see. to me it's very experiential and I will tell you a story and see if this is helpful I worked as a chaplain for a year and of course I had all these ideas of how to be a chaplain and how to be a Buddhist chaplain and all those things and sometimes I would go to see someone

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And, you know, we'd have a conversation and I'd think, God, that was, I really messed up. You know, this person is never... And then the next day they'd say, oh, so-and-so wants to see you again. And here we would have had this... And then another time I went to see this person and I decided I was going to experiment with really being kind and compassionate and listening to everything she said and And she kept asking. She wanted this thing to happen. So I went and I talked to someone. And I said, you know, the patient in this room has said that this and she needs this and everything. And the person said, OK, you know, I'm really busy. But I'll go and see her in about 10 minutes or something. So I went back in the room after I had this long conversation with this person. And I said, hello. And she looked at me and she said, who are you? So, you know, it's this way that we bring this whole conceptual reality to something and it's not at all what's happening.

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And then to realize that's what's always the truth. Like I've had some conversations with people here and I think, oh, did I say the right thing? Oh, is that? Okay. And then I'm just like, I have to, I don't know. You know? And so start again with the next time I see them. or next time they see me, just start again, you know? And that's where I think the experiential level comes in. Does that make sense? Yeah, the experience is in that. If there is like a recognizable experience, it sounds like you're saying it's that moment where you realize you're wrong, in essence. Not wrong in a wrong way, but realize that you've limited You've squeezed it down into your reality. Suddenly you see that you've done that and oh, the whole thing pops. It's something like that. But then you bring that down into just your daily experiences. That I know. So thank you.

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In your research, I'm curious because I just picked up the Heart Sutra and... started reading commentaries on it maybe a week ago and I'm getting curious about does there's and I want to do research and I'm curious if there seem to be any common themes around how one begins to cultivate yeah the experiential quality of being of relating with that from that aspect like of course meditation but If you were to write a prescription or a recipe for how to get closer to identifying with that versus our thought coverings, what would it be? Many, many, many years of deep mindfulness practice. And then there are also stories of people who have never practiced, dropped a pail of water and...

[28:24]

all of a sudden their consciousness broke. Right. And, you know, if that happens to you, then maybe you're lucky. But you know what, there's this thing that I, and I don't know if you're lucky actually, because if you don't know what's happened, if you don't know, you often will sort of make up a story about it. Like often people who have that kind of experience, turn it into a movement or some sort of a group thing or something like that. And there's not a foundation. And it's very scary sometimes when groups like that get formed. So I think that... Let's see if I can... You know what I was thinking? I'm just going to know. The reason I say many, many years of mindfulness practice is that... When you don't deconstruct your sort of already assumptions of what that moment meant, then you're lost.

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So if you're going to study, then you're going to have a foundation for those moments of intuition. And then the next time you read the Heart Sutra, you'll hear something different. Or the next time you read the Hatsudra, you'll just be dreaming through the whole thing. And you'll say, oh, right, I dreamt through the whole thing about something else. And that's a form of mindfulness. And so you just, it's this repetition. I mean, you know, the Buddha, you know, we forget. He lived in the forest for six years, this ascetic life, hardly ever eating. And we're not going to do that. So, you know, but that's our model and that's, you know, so I hope that's, yeah. So I've been thinking recently and talking to the teachers and everyone here about like nose and smell and eyes and sight, body and mind, and how they don't have like an independent reality, right?

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That like, they don't, that they're empty because they can't exist without a certain amount of its dependence. But I am really still puzzling over how much those can be teased apart. If you have eyes and ears and nose but no taste, does that mean anything? Pardon me. Let me try to figure out how to better phrase this. Is there ever, like, anything that isn't empty? Ever. Right? Like, everything. Like, that's this teaching, right? That's, like, the core of the Heart Sutra, is that there are no exceptions, and you can't break it apart, break it into pieces, or, like,

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recombine the world and like our bodies and minds and like the functions of our consciousness right in in some way that could ever like exist independently like that ever like occupies its own like inherent reality that's that's like one of those is trying to tell it's one of the in buddhist history that question comes up so um You know, there are all these different schools that were around before the Buddha. And so if you look into those, you'll find one that was asking that question. And it's a difficult question. I forget what it's called. Is that materialism? I forget the name for it. But it's a particular philosophical perspective. And according to Buddhism, you know, like that sutra says, empty is the world. And so that's how the Buddhist teaching deals with the way they see everything is seen as interdependent.

[32:53]

But there are schools that will look at things differently. So, one more question? Go ahead. Hearing you talk about Jean-Mathier's essay or studies, and then to talk about emptiness in your example to Greg, in some ways, you know, coming from a science background myself, right, and studying and thinking we can know certain things and what can we know and what can't we know. Part of me wonders, like, how do we know? Not to... attached to the first idea that whatever we think the Heart Sutra was, it was really, you know, sitting there and talking about it and whatever, but in terms of the past and the origins and who actually wrote it and when it was written.

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In a sense, is it helpful any more than opening us up from becoming attached to this teaching. When I was in the Master of Theology program, I think this is what you're asking, someone in our class on studying the Bible, you know, interpreting and so on, we were using the historical critical method, and that asks, you know, when was it written, who wrote it, and who was it addressed to? And so we were applying that to these biblical... passages and we each chose one and I got Jeremiah and Matthew those quotes from those two they're my favorites you know I was really excited and one of the guys in the class though said his father was worried about him because he was afraid that this way of looking at the scripture would challenge his faith and the professor who has been a Catholic priest for 50 years said

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You know, most people find it deepens effort. And that's what I have found. You know, knowing that it's so complex, knowing that my interpretations, your interpretations, Zen Center's interpretations are kind of moving into the future in some way because of who we are. I find that actually relaxing. You know, I feel like This is how the teaching goes on. It sort of, you know, it has to be applied here. We can't keep guessing and guessing at what was happening. It doesn't help, I don't think. But here right now, you know, And that's the freedom of looking at the past in this critical, historical, critical way, is it frees you from thinking that there isn't truth, that there's no way else it could be, you know.

[36:11]

Anyway, I don't know if that helps other people's faith, but it deepens mine as I study all these things. So I think it's time to stop. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

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