very amazing to be here and one reason that we're here in the dining room is so that you can help this to be relevant so I will say some things but then I'm going to probably stop who knows maybe I'll just keep going but my intention is to stop and see if you have anything to add or any questions or anything that can help direct our exploration tonight so I think many of us these days are thinking wondering how can I be of benefit in our world which is so obviously has so much suffering in it there's so much complexity and going on and we're when we stop to think about it which you know isn't isn't probably for any of us all the time you know and I noticed being at Tassajara it's like there's I don't think about very much here because the next thing is happening is just going along right which but nonetheless I think even people at Tassajara the world breaks in on us at various times and we think

[01:30]

We wonder, how can I help? How can I be of benefit? What I've been thinking lately is that to be of benefit, we have to notice suffering. We have to notice when it happens. We have to notice it internally and externally. So we maybe have to sometimes slow down to notice it or not be so adverse to it that we stop ourselves from noticing it. But we also, on the other side of it, we have to not be so overwhelmed by it that we can't notice it. So it's really how do we be present with suffering, all the varieties of suffering that come to us in one way or another. Maybe we read about them in the newspaper or maybe we actually see them happening or maybe we actually feel them happening internally.

[02:35]

In order to be of benefit in that situation, we have to actually be... We don't have to understand. Sometimes we get caught in that. Like we notice suffering happening and then we get caught in how do I... What is going on here? How do I fix this? We go to our mind in terms of trying to understand. But I think the kind of understanding we need is much more of a, as I used to say when I was lecturing, it's more of a being able to stand it rather than understand it. Rather than put it into words, there's how do I stay stable with it and open in its presence. in its presence. Which is, you know, one of the things I think Tassajara is very good at training us in, really, is stability. And part of stability is, I think, being able to feel the support that is around us.

[03:41]

You know, being able to, whether we're consciously thinking of it or not, but to actually, like, feel supported, like, Feel that there is ground, and there is air, and there is love, and there is meaning, maybe even, or usefulness, or at home, feeling at home, wherever we are. Like, I belong here. Even if it isn't our home, but there's some sense that I think is often, as I said, not so... articulated and it's not so important that it be articulated it's more like there's a sense like because I got here wherever here is I belong here it doesn't mean I should stay here forever it might even be I should leave here but actually I am here right now because you know as we say as we Buddhists say because dependacle rising happened and here I am and dependacle rising actually doesn't lie

[04:48]

You know, it's got all these parts that come together and there it is. Right now, you know, I feel scared. Or right now I feel whatever. Or right now I'm standing where I'm standing and what's happening is happening. And we, of course, if the feelings are unpleasant or, let's see, I had a better word for it, Maybe unpleasant. I want to make it as wide as possible in the negative range so it can go to really, really, really bad feelings or just slightly uneasy. So the feelings are difficult, let's say. Unpleasant instead of pleasant. Then often our tendency is to deep inside somewhere before we think about it to be pretty sure this is wrong. I should not be having an unpleasant feeling.

[05:51]

That is not the way the universe should work. So something's off here because I'm having a difficult feeling. And then we proceed in one of our habitual ways, you know, to ignore it, if that's the way you can roll, you know. That's great. That's a good person to be, I say. Up to a point. You know, if your difficult feelings, either karmically or just by circumstance up until this point or at this point, are of the kind that you can ignore. You know, that's... That's a hard kind of person to be because it's so... easy to go with you know it's like I can ignore that great let's come back to that somebody if I forget remind me if there's anybody here like that and who wants to think about that more but let's go to some other feelings or other people right now because either some feelings are harder to ignore or some people have don't don't really so much have that capacity you know like

[07:14]

either their feelings are much stronger, so they can't ignore them, usually, or often can't ignore them, or sometimes they tap into, again, karmic situations, sometimes even traumatic situations, where we not only can't ignore them, sometimes we are, like, overcome by them. So those... Again, that's in a way, that's a way to get away from feelings. If it's a traumatic reaction, it isn't so much like you have a choice to not ignore your feelings. It's like you're sucked into a past feeling. And if that happens, then I would say, then you need to go back to, if you notice, if you notice that that's happening, I'm being overwhelmed by my difficult feelings, then you need to go back to trying to get in touch with those supportive feelings.

[08:15]

Am I supported? Where am I right now? Is this really a dangerous situation or am I remembering a dangerous situation and feeling like I'm in a dangerous situation? So those traumatic feelings, that's kind of a situation of its own that sometimes people even need help with. It's like you can't get out of being stuck in that overwhelmed place. But if we come back from that a little bit, I think some of us, that happens too. All of us, I would say, probably have times when we're not there, we're not like pulled in a traumatic way into a past experience, but we are having our past experience in our present experience and we're allowing ourselves Or, I don't know, allowing. It doesn't feel like allowing at the time. It feels like it takes over. It's like our past difficult feelings are pretty strong.

[09:18]

So then again, we need some way to be grounded to feel the support because being able to feel those feelings, those difficult feelings, I think it's necessary for... noticing suffering, for noticing when we're causing suffering, for noticing when somebody else is suffering. If we can't feel our own feelings, if I've, during this COVID time, I've had some powerful conversations with my daughters. I have two daughters, and, you know, they've brought up some difficult feelings, difficult feelings, and they've been quite... forthcoming with saying, you know, I don't feel like you're listening to me. Of course I'm not listening to you. I'm hurting. What you said, just, you know. And I realized they actually, it wasn't like I realized it happened that actually I had to feel my difficult feelings before I could actually hear what they were saying.

[10:29]

So, again, I think this If we want to help, if we want to be of benefit, we have to notice when suffering is happening. And I don't think we have to... I mean, it's not that we don't decide to do things to help. We might. We might spend a whole lot of time, you know, planning what to do to help in a certain situation. But I think... Prior to that, what's most important is to actually be able to be there with the suffering that's happening. And to be there with the suffering that's happening outside, we have to be able to be there with the suffering that's happening inside. And we... I don't know if we can turn it... I mean, they're happening all at the same time, so we can't get away from the suffering that's happening outside. I just need some time out to get... which is in a way sort of maybe what Tassajara or even a period of Zazen is doing, saying, I'm just going to take some time out.

[11:41]

I know the suffering is going to keep going on, but I'm going to sit down. I'm just going to be with my suffering or my... Again, I think this practice, this Zazen and way of life practice that we're doing is... both about being able to be with the suffering, but it's also with being able to be with the support, to be able to actually be open to and feel and notice, whether we say it, whether we consciously think it or not, but to be able to embody the body that we have right now, which is being supported. Again, dependent core rising has brought this body here, and it doesn't lie. You know, we're actually here. There is, each one of us is here in our life, supported to be in that life. What happens next? You know, what should you do next? Should you do this?

[12:42]

Should you do that to take care of your own suffering or the world's suffering? Again, it isn't that we shouldn't think about it, but... I think we mostly think, or we often think, that's where the decision's going to get made. You know, I'm going to make a decision. I'm going to think about the pros and cons of this and decide where to go. I don't think it really happens that way. You know, something much more complex than we can think about is going on. The whole world is turning, and many, many things are happening, including I will do something next. I will stay, I will go, I will... I will laugh. And I don't always know what it is. So that's what I think. I think that's one way of saying what this practice is about. It's the kind of giving us the space and the time and the support to feel that support and then to

[13:54]

you know, then to feel, to be there with our suffering, it takes courage. It takes patience. It takes compassion. It takes sometimes curiosity. I think it takes something like faith or confidence that it is okay, or even more than okay, like dependently co-arisen, that I feel this way. It's coming from many, many things, from everything. So it's okay for me to feel it because we have a pretty deep, I could say idea, but in some ways I think it's deeper than an idea.

[14:56]

We have a aversion to feeling difficult feelings. I shouldn't feel sad. I shouldn't feel angry. I shouldn't feel frustrated. I shouldn't feel afraid. But actually, if that's what we're feeling, it's okay to have those feelings. It's dependently co-arisen to have those feelings and then what do you do with them that's a whole other question and that the answer to that question will come what do you do with it but if it's if what i do with it is try not to feel it if i get a sense that i might be having a difficult feeling and then my my response is to try not to feel it in one of the many many ways that we can do that as i said you know uh... Letting ourselves be overwhelmed.

[15:56]

Again, this is not the trauma one, but letting ourselves be overwhelmed. Just averting from it and going on to something else. Thinking about it. That's a good way to avoid feeling it. Understand it. Decide what caused that. Why am I feeling like this? Spend a lot of time thinking about it. Even averting into some related feeling, but not the actual feeling, which is often what anger is, not always, but where we can, because we're feeling afraid, instead of feeling the fear, we'll feel the anger. Anyway, if we do any of those, it's really just putting off what we actually have to be in order to respond directly to to the suffering that's in us and around us.

[16:57]

Let me stop there for a minute and see if any of you have anything that can either further this conversation or take it in a whole other direction. engage with, or maybe not engage with, but when you allow for feeling, is there, I guess it seems like there's sort of a line between just allowing for that and also maybe like holding on to that feeling as it happens, like kind of just being swept by that catharsis and sort of, like, is that also a sort of avoidance?

[18:07]

Yeah, I think so. And we have habits, you know, so we often do what has worked for us in the past. So, yeah, I think what you're bringing up is that's maybe where the curiosity comes in, is to, you know, if we think, I know what I'm feeling, especially if it's a feeling that I'm pretty sure I've had before, and then, you know, we identify with it in a way, right? We think, and this feeling needs to be taken care of in some way, and we sort of reinforce it and reinforce it, which is not curious about what is it and how is it unfolding? So, yeah, I think that's another... that this practice helps with. You know, like if you're sitting in a period of zazen, as you know, feelings can come up, but then it gets kind of like life goes on, right?

[19:11]

And you can't go do anything that's sort of... You can definitely build on it for a while, but usually after a while, it's like something else happens and something else happens. Yeah, so there's some experience of the... we could call it the emptiness of feelings, you know, that feelings come up and they, in fact, I think, you know, this form is emptiness and emptiness is form. One of the easiest places to see that, I think, is feelings. By feelings, I mean sensations, and then there's this thing called emotions, which are sensations sometimes with some story added to them. So to be at the sensation level of our feelings, feeling our sensations, is a really good place to notice that

[20:25]

they can be gone in a minute. They are so dependently co-arisen by nothing else happening. For instance, if an earthquake starts, probably you don't keep that particular feeling you were having. You have another one. To really be at the sensation level, the emptiness of feeling, the emptiness of form is... pretty evident. On the other hand, emptiness is form. Emptiness is feeling. So to think, oh, the emptiness, oh, that feeling's gone and here's this lack of it, that's where I should be. That's where freedom is. It is not true. That's not where life is. Life is, there is form. There are things happening. This is a body that has sensations. can I stay there with them, even if they're difficult ones?

[21:32]

Thank you. Yes. I'm curious what you were going to say about people who can ignore their feelings. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, this is something I've been studying, right? Because I think by, you know, very lucky karma in a way, my sensations and emotions and opinions are often at a level that they don't cause me a whole lot of pain. So, you know, it's nice to not get caught up in them and just do something else.

[22:35]

And lately I've been wondering, how did I not notice certain things? You know, how did I not notice that I was causing suffering there? And I think, you know, I'm still not completely sure, but if our karma... is such that... I mean, it's never going to be always. Things hurt. You have a body, you have a mind, things hurt. So don't worry about it if you are a person who can avoid it some of the time. You don't have to go... I believe you don't really have to go searching, searching, searching for pain all the time. It will come to you, and if you're not having it right now, there are plenty of other people around you who are having it, and you can... something you know listen to them or be with them or something so I think that's fine I'm happy to be that kind of person a lot of the time but I do have noticed that there have been times that I have when I can't quite figure out how I didn't notice you know and

[23:55]

I think that there was some turning away because I wasn't actually able to stand my own suffering. So I don't think there was anything I could do about that in the past because I can't go back there and do anything about it. But in the present, I want to notice more subtle suffering. Maybe it's just a tensing up, you know, like my stomach getting tight. And I want to not just, because that would be easy to ignore right now, it's not bothering me, right? I want to pay attention to that, you know. So like giving this talk tonight, I started noticing a couple, when Robin came through Jamesburg the other day and He said I was going to give a talk and all, and he said, do you feel like you're going to die? And I said, nah, not anymore.

[24:56]

I did. I used to feel that way. You know, every talk, I'm going to die, I'm going to, you know, it was just, I felt terrible. And then once I noticed, oh, I feel like I'm going to die, I don't think I really am going to die. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to die. Whatever I do, whatever, and go in the Zendo, you give a talk, it's either, you know, people like it or they don't, pretty sure I'm not going to die. And I didn't feel like I was going to die then, and I haven't felt like I was going to die before I gave this talk, but a couple of days ago, I started really like, I didn't like anything. Nothing. It didn't. It's just like, ugh, go, you know. Things were just not good. Things weren't good. I was like, hmm, that's interesting. And I thought, I said to Keith, Maybe I'll feel different after this talk is over. Maybe the talk is just kind of like weighing on me in some way.

[25:57]

Because it was like, I don't want to go to Tassajara, and I don't want to go to walk, and I don't want to get up, and I don't want to go to... Anyway, so we'll see. I don't know yet. I mean, I feel okay right now. How I feel tomorrow morning, I don't know. But... So I think if we're... It's a little bit certain people, right? But it's also just certain times. Like everyone probably has times when they feel good. Let's see if I can remember this. Keith was just reading an article and he was just telling me about it. That when people feel good, they tend to be more susceptible to... What was it? Bullshit... Receptivity. Bullshit receptivity. So be careful. If you think I'm saying nice things, you might be just because you're a Tassajara.

[27:02]

So this is a study they've done. If people are feeling happy, then they test them out with these phrases, which I can't remember any of them. They were like three and four wonderful words put together that... sort of should have made sense, but they didn't make any sense, and people were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. But if they were in a bad mood, they're like, what? But he's sane. Yeah, when you're in a bad mood. What? Yeah, so I think it's a tricky one, you know, because it's not like We want to be in a bad mood all the time, just so we can be, you know, more not receptive to bullshit. But we do have to be a little careful. If you're in a good mood.

[28:04]

Anything else? Yes, Rene? Yes. If, say, I'm feeling... that I'm feeling eliled, marginalized, some way that I kind of know I'm really okay, but I'm feeling it. So that to me is the suffering. And then I'll think about the Afghani girls who are so marginalized and won't even let go. It's so much worse their suffering. And I think a similar feeling is that Is that helpful or am I avoiding? Or what do you think that's about? I think I use it to help, but maybe it's an avoidance? Yeah, I think you need to be a little careful because there might be something going on now that is... It's like the world is a big mandala, right?

[29:06]

And we each have our part to play. So... if you're feeling belittled or marginalized, there may be something that's happening now that is part of the dependent co-arising of that feeling in you. So if you can have that feeling and be stable enough with it that you can bring it out, like make it more a part, something that the rest of us or somebody who's involved in that feeling with you is more aware of, And you have a better chance of doing that in a way that they can stand to hear if you're not, like, totally immersed in it or not able to feel it. Like, you might not be able to stand to have that feeling, and then you go screaming to somebody else, like, you're making me feel belittled and blah, blah, blah, blah, because I don't want to feel it. You have to change something. They might or might not be able to stay there for that, but they're less likely to be able to than if you can...

[30:07]

Have that feeling and then actually still have the conversation. Because even if they had no intention of making you feel belittled, still for us to explore with each other, how did this happen? How did this separation happen in our mandala that you're a part of and I'm a part of? especially if we can do it without it becoming a who's to blame. You know, if it can be, how did this dependently co-arise, whether we use those words or not, you know. So there may be some avoidance by thinking of Afghanistan instead. I think that it's, you know, it's true. We are related to those girls in Afghanistan, you know, and... Is there anything we can do for them? I don't know.

[31:08]

You know, I've been, this is one of the thoughts I've been having during this COVID time. It's like, there's so many things that are, that I could worry about, you know, that I could, you know, that really need to be worried about or need to, you know, they're like definitely worrisome. But I don't really think that most of them are anything that's really going to help. for me to worry about I don't want to be in denial about them and if somebody comes to me and says you know you're racist or you are hurting me in this way or you are I want to be I don't want to be like shocked I want to be like oh yeah this stuff is going on you know how am I a part of the problem I want to be able to be there for that that exploration, right? But to be walking around worrying about it, even, you know, climate change was just all around us, right?

[32:11]

I want to be noticing, am I adding to it? You know, like we take walks out at Jamesburg, and sometimes when I'm walking, I think, oh, I need to go slow enough that I notice if I'm going to step on something. You know, like now, could be a rattlesnake. That also could just be a bug. You know, am I noticing? So when I'm just walking and not trying to talk to anybody at the same time or anything, I can try to notice. Am I, oh, I should step over here instead of there because I'm going to step on a bug. It's not going to stop me from stepping on things that I don't see because some things are too small to see. But in terms of... Consciously doing something, actually I'd rather put my foot over here rather than on something. So to, you know, try to be present enough to notice is there suffering, there potential suffering.

[33:15]

But when to, so I don't think there's like, yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was kind of using it to put it in perspective. My small. Yeah. Pre-occupation really kind of does dissolve a little bit when I am in perspective. Yeah. Which is tricky. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not that it isn't true. Pardon? Say that? I don't think that's wrong for me to... Or is that just Nick Everson that I shouldn't get into? You don't think it's wrong for you to put it in perspective? To put it in perspective and then my problems are so much they're not the same. Yes. I think you're right. It's not wrong. It's not right. It's not wrong to notice. It is right. It's not wrong to notice that our suffering is in some ways minor compared to other suffering.

[34:18]

On the other hand, if this is the suffering that we have now, it's a good idea to try to take care of it. But to take care of it at the level that it is, right? If you're feeling, so you're feeling, as you, you know, feeling, what did you say? Not seeing, no, that's not what you said. Just not appreci... Marginalized. Marginalized, yep. Yeah, let's say. You know, to have that in perspective, I think, is good, but then to... think that it doesn't count. The feeling doesn't count. To think that this feeling, just because it's not as bad as many, many, many, many, many other people and beings, doesn't mean that I shouldn't take care of it when that's the feeling I'm having. And taking care of it might just be feeling it.

[35:20]

It might not mean anything more than that. So I think, again, it's a little, it's something we need to be, we need to be curious about our habits. How do we get by? Oh, I think about the children starving in China and then I feel like, oh, I'm okay. Yeah, no, really. It's not really like, I really like go inside them. I mean, I feel it in the way that I can, the best way that I can. To me, it's not, It doesn't feel separate. They don't feel separate from me. I'm wondering, in that moment, are you separating yourself from the people who are around you here? Maybe not right in that moment, but when your feeling of marginalization goes away from here, is that something we could be working on together? Or we could at least acknowledge together or something. That's why I asked the question. Thank you. Yes, Rob?

[36:23]

How do you know the line between honoring a feeling and... Say it again, honoring a feeling. How do you discern the difference between honoring a feeling and wallowing? Yeah, good point. First of all, it's not, it's not absolutely crucial that we get the exact answer all the time. You know, like ignoring a feeling or wallowing in a feeling are, you know, it's just, it's something we do and we need to notice is it causing suffering. So wallowing in a feeling often does cause more suffering, but also it sometimes is a way of avoiding the actual feeling.

[37:33]

And then I think it's another way that this practice is so useful. It's like if we put ourselves in a stable posture and find the feeling in our body if we can. Sometimes we can't because it's more diffuse than that. It's like we feel it everywhere or something. Sometimes we can find it like in the pit of your stomach or something. And then let yourself have it. One of the ways that wallowing happens is often to start telling yourself a story about it. Or a story about how it happened or what they did or you know, something like that, then that kind of increases it, revs it up a little bit. But to actually just go back to the physical sensation of it, and, you know, sometimes at that point it goes away, which people can also feel frustrated about, but I think that's okay, because we have feelings that are in us.

[38:40]

You know, mostly we don't have any new feelings. We have the same feelings over and over and over again. So it'll come back. Yeah. If we're in the midst of something and we can't really, like, take the time out to put our... I mean, we can be in a stable posture. You know, we think sit down, sit in, zazen. But you can be in a stable posture standing or lying down. And so if you're in an action, in an inner action, maybe, and a feeling arises... Again, try at least to notice where are your feet, you know, am I standing up straight, if you have time to do that, you know, if things don't start happening too fast. And then, again, just try to find yourself. Yeah. And you might be out of control.

[39:44]

You know, especially if it happens in an interaction. Things might happen that you might later think, that's not what I would have chosen. But I think if your intention is to be there with the suffering, you know, the external and internal suffering, you know, you can go back and apologize. It's okay. We're not, this practice is not about getting in control. about how to live as an alive being, as part of the alive mandala, as a beneficial part of that alive mandala. How do we be of benefit? And what I'm suggesting is that to be of benefit, we need to be open to the internal suffering and the external suffering. I think in some ways we, at Zen Center, also maybe wider than that, I imagine wider than that, but certainly at Zen Center we often think that we're supposed to be making something that feels good.

[41:08]

We're supposed to be making a community that feels supportive and calm and loving and compassionate and many things, which that's true, but I don't think if we think that's what we're supposed to be making, I don't think that's really the way to get there. I think the real way to get there is to be able to be there with our suffering and other people's suffering. So that if you come to me and you're suffering, and maybe when you're really suffering, you're not so pretty about it. You're not so easy to be with. Actually, I want to be able to be there with that person, to explore with them what is going on. What are you actually feeling? And it's tricky, right? What if they're blaming me? What if they're saying it's my fault that they're suffering so much?

[42:09]

What do you do then if you just say... No, let's think about what's happening in you. Well, they're not going to appreciate that so much. And what's more, also, it isn't true. I am part of their suffering. If they think I'm part of their suffering, I am part of their suffering. I may not be the part that they think I am, and I may not be as much, there may be some part of them that they could have a big impact on their suffering by looking at, but to try to go there by diverting from my part in it, Anyway, it's a complicated, alive, very alive process that we're trying to do together. Yes, Inko. I'll start out by saying that this teaching has been really helpful for me over the course of my life at Zen Center. Yes. Sitting with my feelings, not acting out, noticing I'm in some sort of suffering spiral.

[43:13]

and slowly my coming back to myself. It's been very helpful. And maybe I feel bad or something, but I am a little skeptical sometimes also because, yeah, to me, sometimes it can feel like a cop-out if a teacher tells me, you know, like, this is your problem. Like, you know, you deal with it, you know? Implicitly what they're saying is you'll get over it, you know? And to me, it seems like a way to diffuse maybe legitimate criticism or legitimate issues, but systemic issues. Like maybe I'm not the only one feeling this, but I'm told to just get, you know, kind of get over it tacitly through the practice. Yeah. I'm curious about that because sometimes that, maybe a lot of people have this feeling. Yes. You know, maybe a lot of people share this feeling and maybe a lot of people, yeah, maybe there are causes that could actually be looked at.

[44:14]

Yes. And they're looked at because, you know, it's your problem. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that is, it's really, it is one of the really complex, true parts of our life, right? Like, probably if you are having a feeling or any, about this organization probably there are a lot of people are having that feeling and it probably is something that we need to look at and to use that you know use practice with it as a wall against looking at that is something that happens and it's not very helpful on the other hand for certain there's a part in it right there's like each of us have a part in it including you if you bring it so if you're if you're taking it to somebody who, you know, if you're going to them in practice discussion or you're going to your teacher with it or something, and you've said to them, either explicitly or implicitly, help me, I'm trying to practice with my part in things, they have to be able to say, yeah, you know, what's happening for you in this?

[45:31]

So how do we do both? I think it's, potentially one of the wonderful things about the fact that we live together, right? Like, you don't just come to the teachers at Zen Center for practice discussion, right, for Dokusan. You live with them. So, all kinds of problems that they're involved in, in your life. And we have to deal with them with each other. So, you know, how to do both those things, how not to... block each other, how to let each other help see what's going on. And yeah, it's really complicated. And if you are the person who is a teacher and somebody comes to you with a problem about Zen Center, it's so...

[46:34]

hard. Is it hard? I don't know. It's so easy not to remember. You know, that, oh, I have to keep practicing at the same time. You know, I have to be open to there's a real truth here. And if the person's coming to me as a teacher, as a practice leader, I also have to not avert from, and I think there's something going on for you here, too. You know, so... And it's very hard to, if you go to somebody who in our very stratified society, right, is higher in the stratosphere here, and if they're not receptive to it, it's really hard to know what to do. It's very frustrating because it feels powerless, but I actually think there are ways to... to say to anybody, if they're giving you advice, to really try to hear that and to say, and I also think there's something here that we need to look at about Zen Center.

[47:52]

Whenever we go directly at the person, it's going to feel like an attack, and it's few are the people. who won't get defensive at that point. So here we are living together. We just keep trying, really. And sometimes we say something and it seems like the person doesn't hear it at all. I think that's rarely the case, actually, that the person really doesn't hear anything, even if they don't show it. Usually, if we have said something, the situation has changed a little bit. That doesn't mean that we don't have to go back again or that we don't have to go to somebody else and say, you know, I tried to talk about this with this person. I couldn't do it. They wouldn't listen to me. And, you know, I feel like it needs to be looked at. Yeah. Skepticism's good.

[48:55]

Yeah. I think there isn't, you know, there aren't any perfect people here. And there are never going to be. So we're going to keep trying to figure out how to live as beneficial beings in the world, you know, in Zen Center and out of Zen Center. And hopefully that's what we, as long as this place exists, hopefully that's what we're doing. And may you please continue to be skeptical and sensitive, you know. How are we doing? There's maybe time for one more. Lance? I had a situation with my kids one time where there was a sense of aversion in the relationship. And I wanted to change things, and I thought I could just change things. And then I just felt sad. And then what happened next was I realized what was creating the sadness.

[50:06]

picking up at dances, walking into school. And the sadness felt complete. And I wonder, by the tapestry of emotions that kind of go on, to kind of feel an acceptance and a release in some of these emotions, to see how they form kind of holistically. Does that make any sense? Yeah, I think that's... If I'm understanding you, I think that in a way that's exactly what I'm talking about is to, you know, life, life is happening. And we are, what? We are it. We are living in it. We are living it. We are a part of it. We're, anyway. And can we do that? We are doing it.

[51:06]

Of course we're doing it. But can we allow ourselves to be it freely? And part of it is, oh yeah, that feeling, that happened. It's happening. Sometimes it goes. Sometimes it stays. Sometimes there's something to do. Sometimes there's nothing to do. But the... any human thing that we, this tendency we have to think that we know something should be a different way than it is, leads us to do a lot of things that cause suffering. So that directing back to what actually is at this moment and being able to allow it I think is one of the best ways to not cause suffering and be available to notice it.

[52:04]

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