This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Suddenly, a memory of Katagira Roshi came up in my mind. I remember him once expressing, saying kind of enthusiastically that he wanted to raise the Dharma flag. And then that was actually the second thought about him. The first thought about him was that I think maybe the last practice period he led here, Robert Lytle was the director. Were you here? And Robert said to Kadagiri Roshi, you seem to have a hard time teaching, but Reb seems to have a really easy time teaching.

[01:12]

And Kadagiri Roshi said something like, Reb has a hard time too. I kind of agree with Gadigiri Rishi. Sometimes it's hard to sit on this seat. Sometimes it's hard for you to sit on your seat. But that's where it's at. And then it's sometimes hard to stand at your place. But that's where it's at. Someone might say, that's Zen in a nutshell.

[02:23]

Anyway, raising the Dharma flag, here goes. Raising it up. Zazen. Zazen. Zazen is enacting with body and mind the whole universe in face-to-face transmission with the whole universe. as your body and mind. Zazen is your body and mind enacting the face-to-face transmission of the universe. Dharma flag. Zazen is the face-to-face transmission of the treasury of true Dharma eyes. Sazen is Buddha meeting Mahakashapa and raising the flower and Mahakashapa responding with a smile and so on.

[03:51]

For 2,500 years, Sazen has been the enactment of face-to-face transmission and we have been enacting this face-to-face transmission for our practice period. And sometimes it has been hard to sit in the seat where the face-to-face transmission is living. But we've made considerable effort, haven't we? Everybody's made some effort, haven't you? And sometimes it's been hard, and we were kind of concerned about that.

[04:53]

And then once in a while it was easy, and we were concerned about that. When Master Ma was unwell, the horse master was unwell. The director of the monastery came to him and said, How is your health these days, teacher? And Matsu said, Sun-faced Buddha. Moon-faced Buddha.

[06:00]

Not feeling well. About to die. How are you, teacher? Raise the Dharma flag. Here it goes. There it is. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. He raised that flag, and we've been enjoying it since the year 788. How's your health today, teacher? Zazen. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. And it's not just sun-faced Buddha and moon-faced Buddha.

[07:12]

It's sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. It's sun-faced Buddha face-to-face with moon-faced Buddha. It's face-to-face transmission. That's how I am. That's how I am as I'm dying. That's how I was my whole life. And that's what I have to say at this time. When Suzuki Roshi was unwell, being not very well civilized, I never said to him, how is your health today, teacher? When he was sick, I don't remember saying, how are you? I knew how he was. He was sick. I didn't say, how are you? How's your health? But I did go see him, and that was nice.

[08:15]

Maybe I said good morning or good afternoon. I really wish I could be in the room and see myself come in and meet him when he was dying. To see how I looked at him and how I talked to him. I wish I could see it again. If I could see how the young man was attentive to the old man. The young man, I knew that I can remember the young man was happy, was joyful to go and get to hang out with him even when he was dying. He let me come and be with him and watch him get his Shiatsu.

[09:16]

And as I told you, when the Shiatsu person was sick, he even said, you do it. He let me massage him when he was dying. And he said, pretty good. I wish I could see that. moment again and again those moments now this story about Matsu it's I think kind of fortunately it's in two of the great koan collections so we have two poems written about it two quite different poems I just want to confess that I would kind of like to talk to you about both poems today, but I think maybe it's too much.

[10:36]

So maybe tomorrow I'll talk about the second poem, or maybe I'll talk about both today, but that would be a lot. Here comes the first poem. Are you ready to meet the first poem? Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. What kind of people were the ancient emperors? For 20 years I bitterly struggled. How many times have I gone down into the green dragon's cave for you? Clear-eyed patch-robed monks, do not take this lightly.

[11:41]

You're welcome to help me understand this poem. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. What kind of people were the ancient emperors? This is a Chinese poet talking. Ancient emperors are a cultural issue of greatness. So a number of generations of Zen teachers have expressed amazement at this second line. of the poem.

[13:14]

What kind of people are the ancient emperors? Where did that come from and what is that about? You're invited to help me with that line, which I will temporarily, if possible, just step over to the next line. which I find not so difficult. What's the next line? For 20 years I have struggled bitterly. What's the bitter struggle? The bitter struggle is going down into the cave of the green dragon. That can be bitter what is the cave of the green dragon well it just might possibly be our karmic consciousness where there are caves and dragons and cold cold dark

[14:40]

Icy caves and also hot, bad dragon breath. It's hard to go down into the cave. What cave? The cave of your mind and body enclosed in self-consciousness where there's birth and death. And where there's the thought that we can be someplace else. There's a thought that I'd like to be somewhere else and I could be. Those kinds of thoughts are in that cave, which makes it difficult to be there. It's difficult to be there maybe anyway, but it's harder when you think, I could be somewhere else, and then I want to be.

[15:45]

And a number of people have come to me during this practice period and said, I want to be somewhere else. I want to get out of here. Right? This is... This is the way it often is when you're actually down in the cave. You want to get out. When you're not in the cave, you might hear about it and say, well, I might want to go down there sometime. I've heard it's part of the course. I've heard that the Chinese Zen people went down into the cave. Maybe I should go down there too. Once you actually get there, then you think, ah, but I don't have to be here. and so on. But, in order for there to be sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, transmitting the Buddha Dharma together, we have to be in the place

[17:06]

where we are, which is the green dragon cave, is where we are. We have to sit on our dharma seat We have to accept. We sometimes say take the seat, but I'd be careful with the word take. Receive your dharma seat. Your dharma seat is given to you. Just like in a zendo. Some people have asked for certain seats, but anyway, basically, we give you the seat. We give you these seats. You have received these seats. Now that you've been given the seat, it is your responsibility to sit on it. And that is sometimes, once you get there, then you sometimes think, I think I'd like to sit somewhere else.

[18:12]

Or walk somewhere else. But that's the bitter struggle, is moment by moment, accept and exercise your Dharma position. And if you can do that, then you're going to have a face. And this face that you've got because you've accepted your position, now the other face can come and meet you. Actually, it's already there, and when you take your seat, you realize, oh, look who's here. I didn't notice you before. Now that I've arrived, have you been here for quite a while? No, I was just here every moment that you were here. not a while, just every moment, I've been here to meet you.

[19:14]

And now you've arrived and accepted that. And so we can raise the Dharma flag together. Do you have some sutra books over there? Can you pass me a sutra book? thank you very much thank you very much the pivotal activity of all Buddhas, it manifests, or that character, that can also be said, it is present as not thinking.

[20:39]

But my understanding is It is present as not thinking, thinking, not thinking. It's not thinking, and it's not not thinking. It's present as thinking, not thinking. It's completed as not merging. Merging. Not merging. It's present in the pivotal activity of all things. For example, it's present in the pivotal activity of thinking, not thinking, thinking, not thinking.

[21:44]

It's present there. This pivotal activity doesn't grasp that pivotal activity. It is. It's present in the pivotal activity of thinking, not thinking, thinking. When there's thinking, it's present. But it's not the thinking. It's present with the thinking, and it's fully present with the thinking. So it's not thinking. Thinking, not thinking. It's The pivotal activity is present with the pivotal activity. And how do you... How can there be this presence? Well, we know from another conversation that this presence is there by non-thinking. And non-thinking means this presence...

[22:47]

is there because of great compassion. With what? With thinking and not thinking. And great compassion with the pivotal activity. Also, this pivotal activity is present with feeling. But it's not feeling. It's present with feeling. And in being present with feeling, it's feeling, not feeling, feeling, not feeling. and is present with fear, and is present with painful feelings and pleasant feelings, and is present with opinions, and is present with stories. It's not stories. Even though I'm telling a story about it, my story about it isn't it. But it's present with my stories about it. It's present with stories. and is also present with not stories.

[23:48]

It's present with stories, not stories, stories. This is how things are when you go down into the green dragon cave and settle down and completely accept your position, then your position is not your position. Then you're thinking. is not thinking. Then the cold is not cold. Then the hot is not hot. Because you accept the hot thoroughly. This presence as thinking and not thinking.

[24:59]

Now, I'm responsible for this thing in the parentheses. It probably should be, say, this presence as not thinking, thinking. But it says and thinking. maybe it should be better to say, this presence as thinking, not thinking, this presence as not thinking, thinking, but can you deal with the and and not take it too heavily? This thinking as, this presence as not thinking, thinking, not thinking, it is intimate of itself. Or it's intimate in itself. The presence of with this pivotal activity is the intimacy of the pivotal activity. So the presence, the way it is, is that it is intimate. It is the intimacy, the presence with the pivotal activity of thinking not thinking, of feeling not feeling, of fear not fear.

[26:08]

The way it is is intimacy. Intimacy is the way this presence is. It's an intimate presence. I don't know if there's any other kind of presence, but this is the kind of presence it is. It's a presence which is intimacy. Then it says that this presence that is intimate is never defiled. And then it explains this presence or this intimacy that is never defiled is intimacy, oh, this intimacy that is never defiled, that intimacy is liberation without relying on anything. So, what is with the presence? What is the pivotal activity?

[27:15]

The pivotal activity is present with thinking, not thinking. It is present as thinking, not thinking. And being this way, it is intimate of itself. And this intimacy is never defiled. Being not defiled, it is liberation without relying on anything. If it relied on something, it would be defiled. But it's not defiled. It doesn't rely on anything. This intimacy, this presence with this you not you, me not me, thinking not thinking, the presence with that pivotal activity, that intimacy, that is liberation. There's not some other thing it depends on to be liberation. It is naturally, intimately, with what's happening as what's happening leaps beyond itself.

[28:18]

So it is liberation. But there's no additional stuff need to be brought in to this intimacy. The intimacy of the way things are is that things are pivoting, and that pivoting is liberation. That pivoting is everything's leaping from itself by being completely itself. It's not itself. If things are experienced as partially themselves, then they don't leap. Then they're stuck in themselves, and that's bondage by relying on something. So the bitter struggle is the bitter struggle of when they're sinking, going down into the Green Dragon Temple of Green Goat's Farm, go down there and be present there wholeheartedly.

[29:55]

That's the bitter struggle. And then it says, how many times have I gone down there for you? Who's you? Is you? Is the poet saying, I went down into that cave for you, Matsu? I went down into that cave for you, great ancestor? because I saw you go down into that cave when you were sick and you said, sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, and I'm going down to that cave so I can say something that cool. Or maybe he's saying that he goes down there for his teacher or for Buddha or for all sentient beings. I go down into the cave of my life I sit with the dragon of my life for all beings and all Buddhas.

[31:11]

I sit for all beings and I sit to express my gratitude to the teachers who have helped me to ma-tsu. clear-eyed, patched road, monks, don't take this lightly, but also don't take it heavily. Take it wholeheartedly. This is an example. People have done the hard work of being themselves. And it is the hardest job. And, yeah, it's not the only job, maybe, but it's the hardest. and the most liberating. Other activities are somewhat liberating, but this is the one of the clear-eyed patch-robe monks.

[32:20]

They go down into the green dragon temple cave of the self-consciousness, which is full. of little critters saying, you can get out of here. You don't have to stay here. There's better places to be than here. Are you looking forward to the end of the practice period? Are you counting the days? There's just a few. And some other people are saying, I don't want it to end. This is so great to get all this encouragement to be in this dragon cave. sitting here, I really do welcome you to help me over the remaining time together in this world understand how wonderful the second line of this poem is.

[34:12]

What kind of people are the ancient emperors? But I really hope that such discussions do not turn into distractions from the real work of sitting on our seat. Aren't you the real works? What? Aren't you the real works? No, whole works. Okay. Well, I just want to... And I'm not... I don't want to, like, scare you, but I just want to tell you that life is getting more complicated around here.

[35:17]

Some people are actually telling me that they're having a hard time with all these people coming up and talking to me. They like the stories. But then when the people come up and talking, the people make them forget the stories. So if you come up here and talk, make sure you don't disturb anybody. You don't have to worry about me. I'll remember the story. But some people are barely able to remember the story. And you come up here and you start. And then what was the story again? I was reading a good story. Now this person's like erasing it from my poor little consciousness, my poor little dark forest. So part of your responsibility when you ask a question is to ask it for all beings.

[36:21]

Just a little extra responsibility for you. No, not extra. That's your responsibility. Always has been. Please accept it. Do not ask questions just for yourself. Ask questions for all sentient beings. Just kidding. Come on. Ask questions just for yourself. Forget about the sentient beings. What else? I hear blue jays in the sky.

[38:05]

You destroyed me before I destroyed your treasure. You called me when I was in the coffin when I escaped. Sorry. Sorry I destroyed you before you got a chance. to destroy my treasury of true dharma eyes. Maybe in your next life, you can try again. Maybe. You called me when I was in the coffin in the ice cave. Melted me by the sun, by the light of the sun. Set a fire on the top of Mount Sumeru. and burned me alive. For long, I thought I'm less than the other because not receiving your faith. Then I was special for giving the faith and receiving your faith for a while.

[39:12]

Next, you said, this face-to-face is for everyone and everything. This meeting is all together. I said to accept this meeting is with everyone and for everyone. Then you said, there is nothing in this receiving and giving phase. Now you say, there is nothing in this giving and receiving phase. And I'm drawn in the blue eyes. Blue ocean of your eyes. How many times did I die for this face of yours? And how many faces do you have? You've listened to me well. Sometimes I make her raise her eyebrows and blink.

[41:45]

Yeah, sometimes it's sweeping and yesterday there was like a cinder in my eye. Mm-hmm. I heard you say recently that maybe it was hard being Roberta, and I heard you say even more recently that sometimes it's hard being on the Dharma flag seat. Do you want to say more about that, especially your part? Or anything? Stay tuned. I will say more. But I said it may be hard to be Roberta after you said that was your job. Oh, did I say that was my job?

[42:52]

Well, you said you're working at being Roberta. Yes. I said I wanted to attain it. Yeah. And... it may involve 20 years of bitter struggle. Well, I'm like up for it. You're up for it. I heard that. You're up for it. That's the good news. But I wonder about the concept of having a struggle. You don't have to struggle. It's just because there's this other little voices in the Roberta area which say, you know, I have better things to do than be here. You know, I don't need this problem. Some problems I'll accept, but not this one's too small for me. You know, these little problems, they can be dispensed with.

[43:54]

Because of that kind of thing, it's kind of hard to like really wholeheartedly take care of the little tiny problems or the huge ones, whatever. The karmic consciousness has got a lot of tricksters in it that are telling us, please go someplace else. You don't have to be here. And they say, yeah, but it's my job to be here. Oh, forget that stuff. Those Zen people are so silly. It makes it harder in a way. But if you can stay on the job site, then these voices make you more profoundly here. To say, oh, I hear you guys, I hear you, I know you really, this is your way of saying, be here. How could those voices not be here, and how could I not be me? If they weren't here, some other ones would be here, and that would be who you are.

[44:56]

We don't need these particular ones. you know, it's like we've got these problems, you guys stay here. No. These are the ones I accept today as not distracting me from my job. Tomorrow there may be different ones, maybe more tricky than these guys. But I'm up for the job of not being fooled by them, but not being fooled by them comes with deeply listening to them. Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying, go away, but you really mean... Be still. I get it. That was a good one. If you really listen, you'll hear everybody saying, be Roberta, please. But the way they say it is, don't be Roberta, please. You have better Roberta's to be than this one. You hear those voices, but if you listen carefully, it's just clever ways to make the story more interesting. saying please be Roberta yes in these infinitely varied ways some of which feel like they might be saying don't be in your life it's like turning a sock inside out yes and I'm glad you're up for it what else do I have to do

[46:29]

I could offer a song if that's not beneficial. Just a second. Would anybody, you know, and you won't tell who said it, if anybody doesn't want Roberta to sing, raise your hand. Okay? So some people don't want you to. No, thank you. I'll sail upon the night in a curvy purple sail to the moon till it leaves in a comfy, curvy white

[47:31]

I'm... I have two confessions. One is sometimes when I'm walking through Kasahara and I see you, I'm like, oh, I got it. I got to find another way. Whoa! Whoa!

[48:35]

Oh, you're that guy who ran away. But I come back. You do. Here you are. You came back, and now you're sitting in the confession booth, confessing, I wanted to meet you. It's a big booth. Yeah, it's a big booth, and you're confessing, I did not want to meet you face-to-face at that moment. But now here you are. Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. So, yeah, I hope I can keep meeting you and everyone face to face. I pray for that. That would be so cool. We're doing service when we're eating oreochi.

[49:42]

I just can't help but judge everyone, myself, everyone else, everything that's going wrong. I just, I just can't stop. And I'm sorry. I received this, and I appreciate that. Before I say anything more, I just want to say something about thanking you, or thanking the universe, for making you into a person who gets my jokes. LAUGHTER You can't make yourself, get my jokes, but you have been made into a person who does.

[50:52]

And you can't make yourself judge everybody. You can't make yourself a person who judges everything that's going on in Ordeokian service. All those judgments are coming out of the dark forest. into the clearing of your consciousness. However, even though you don't make these judgments, you also cannot stop them. They come in before you have a chance to stop them. They're there. So practice is not the coming of the judgments or getting rid of the judgments. Practice is how you relate to the judgments once they show up. But we're not in control of these judgments that pop up in our mind, in our consciousness. They're coming from the dark forest of our unconscious process. All these stories. Service could be better. These people could be more skillful.

[51:56]

These stories are coming out. They're nice, coherent stories. They're better than nothing. We don't want to have no stories. So here's the story. Service is pretty above average today. the practice is how you relate to the stories it's being generous to these stories which you can't stop and you can't start but they're given to you to be generous with and some of the stories that are given to you which you do not make come for example Some of the stories that I give you, you accept them, and then you get to see how funny they are. All of us are just like you.

[52:56]

We cannot stop these judgments, and we do not consciously create the judgments, but the judgments come into consciousness and are calling for somebody to save them. for somebody to listen to them and liberate them. How? By being intimate with them. That's what they're calling for. All around our consciousness are all these stories and the only place they're going to get liberated is by coming into consciousness and being related to with compassion and wisdom. But the place where they're showing up doesn't make them come. It might say, okay, all you stories, I'm here, come on, I'll listen to you and work for your liberation. But that doesn't make them come. They come according to some other process.

[53:59]

Like maybe they believe you and they come. Maybe they don't believe you and they don't come. You're not in control of that. But when they come, you have a chance. You're not in control of them, but you have a chance. responsibility to take care of all these judgments that come in your mind. So, yeah. You know, welcome all these judgments about this place. Welcome them. Forget about controlling them. Let go of controlling them. Just welcome them. And the more you welcome them, the closer you're getting for them and you together to drop off. Is that like clear? I think so. Yeah. But it's hard to welcome some of these judgments, right? They're kind of bitter.

[55:01]

Ooh. But that's what they're calling for. They're coming and saying, please welcome me. Please be generous to me. Please be careful. Please be tender with me. Please be patient with me. Please liberate me. And you can say, when you hear that, I'm hearing you and I'm up for it. this conversation like the other ones involves encouragement to have your face. So you can give your face.

[56:08]

I've had the wish to come up and ask you to remind me what this verse was about the Green Dragon's Cape. So thank you for responding to the telepathic call. You're welcome. It's been... The verse was... has been delivered over and over again from my forest. And so it's been, I think for me, it's really characterized this in these last few days. And along with it has been delivered some lines that I read a few years ago by Joseph Campbell. I wonder if I might share those too. How do people feel about him sharing it?

[57:35]

Anybody have a problem? Are you ready? Hold on to your seat. Here it comes. You need not risk the journey alone. The way is thoroughly known. Where you thought to find the edge of the world, you will find the center of your own being. Where you thought to slay the other, you will slay yourself. Where you thought to find an abomination, you will find a god. And where you thought to be alone, you will find yourself to be with a whole world. So this has been accompanying this verse of the Green Dragon's cave. And so for me, I've realized that being in this Green Dragon's cave in this room... I'm reminded that we don't go into the cave alone.

[58:38]

Right. And the way is thoroughly known. The cave has been explored by generation after generation. And so we have companions. And also the going into the cave has been explored. And we also have a leader. Thank you for being a leader. Can you give me the last couple lines of that poem again?

[60:07]

No. Can you give me the last couple lines of that poem again? Clear-Eyed, Patchrobe Monks, that one? Yeah, I just can't remember how it ends. I just couldn't remember how it ends. Yeah. Do not take this, you know, this going down into the cave, do not take it lightly. It's not supposed to be easy. And also, don't forget it. Take care of it. My question is about... I question the teaching that I heard from you this morning about getting out of the cave. You said that the cave is hot and the cave is cold. Yes. And something like, but if it's like totally hot, it won't be hot.

[61:13]

Yeah, if you're able to not be distracted by these smart people who are telling you that you can get out of the cave, and you just say, okay, I hear you, but I got this job here of being cold. If we can be... completely cold, we'll realize that cold is not cold. Yes, it sounds like you're still just trying to squirm out of a cave by being there. No, it may sound like that, yeah. And then again, if you can not use that as a distraction from the cold, that's fine. It's just another tricky idea that doesn't need to distract you from actually, even though these comments are being made, I'm actually just cold. And I have confidence in the teaching which says, it's not that I'm going to squirm away, it's that there's going to be liberation without squirming away.

[62:15]

I do want liberation, but the best liberation is liberation where you don't have to move to get it. And this is saying, if I would accept this being trapped in this cold place completely, I would realize this cold place is not a cold place. I didn't have to get to do anything. The intimacy is liberation of itself without relying on anything. So we do aspire to liberation and this is the way of liberation is completely accepting being in bondage. And that's And that's the hard work, is to completely accept being in bondage. And also, if liberation came, would be completely to accept liberation, which some people have a little taste of, and they say, no thank you, I'm going back to bondage. But if you accept liberation, you naturally realize liberation is not liberation.

[63:24]

Bondage is empty, and liberation is empty of self. So neither one can you actually make a nest out of. But if we've got bondage, then that's our cave to go down into completely. With confidence that this is our path, is to be intimate with our seat. So would it be accurate to, as you do with the thinking, not thinking in that verse, turning it one more time? I feel like this particular teaching kind of goes into my consciousness in a way that's more helpful. And I could turn it one more time. Go right ahead. Hot, not hot. Yeah. Like just totally hot. Yeah. These teachings are for you. Use them as you wish. The treasure store will open up itself for your use.

[64:28]

Thank you. This is one that I need to keep saying out loud because this particular turn is a very strong feature of my cave. I'm like, let's get the hell out of here by totally being here. You're still here, so you must not be being here. Be here more so we can get the hell out of here. That's what I'm doing. I'm totally doing it. It's very close and hard to see. So thank you for letting me share it with you. You're welcome. Rishi.

[66:12]

He read a story that the first emperor of China, Wang Di, was buried outside the capital of Chang'an in a jade coffin in an ocean of mercury surrounded by 20,000 terracotta soldiers looking for immortality, looking to live for 1,000 years. And yet he passed on. My person such as he You're a person who is capable of being compassionate to him, even though he was an ecological disaster. Roshi, I heard a story.

[67:15]

a Zen master from Japan who came to America and started a temple for people in the West. Am I a person such as he? I think you aspire to be a person such as he. And that aspiration will be realized even though you don't know who he is. He still aspired to be just like him. I heard a story about Dongshan Liangjie locking himself in the abbot's quarter while his mother died outside from grief. Am I a person such as he? You're a person who can bring that story up.

[68:19]

Thank you very much. And a mother at Green Gulch leading the coming-of-age group brought that story up to the children. She saw that that story was about children becoming free of their mother. But it's like, really, she brought it up. I couldn't bring it up, but she brought it up. So thank you for bringing it up. It's a very important story in our tradition. Kizan Job, he commented on that story and said that Dongshan revived home leaving by keeping his great upper up not returning to his hometown and not meeting his mother before he attained enlightenment, before he touched the way.

[69:31]

Keizan said that. Would you say that? I thank you for bringing that up too. And I thank Kazon for saying that. And I also would like to say that home living is nothing in and of itself. There's no story you can tell about it. That is what it is. And the revival of it is also not something in and of itself, even though it's so important.

[70:33]

that we keep it alive and we look at these issues deeply. Thank you. One last question about it. Yes. Keizan also said that Dongshan was clinging to the teachings of emptiness before he locked himself in the abbot's quarter and before his mother found him. Do you think he missed the mark? Say again. Keizan, when telling the story, said that Dongshan was clinging to the teachings of emptiness, was attached to them before his mother came. He had heard the heart suture and become attached to the teachings of emptiness, and then locked himself in the abbot's cabin when his mother came looking for him. Do you think he missed the mark? Do you think he didn't turn it one more time? You mean Kezan? No, Dongshan. I mean... Oh. So, this is getting interesting. So... Kezan said Dongshan revitalized home-leaving, and then he's saying he was actually not home-leaving.

[71:44]

First he said that he was clinging when he became a monk. Oh, I see. When he became a monk. When he first became a monk. But when he locked himself in the room, he was no longer clinging? He was still clinging. Still clinging. In theory. Yeah. That's Kezan's telling of the story. So Kezan's saying he revitalized home leaving and the way he revitalized home leaving was being attached at certain points to what home leaving was. Yeah, that's what I thought he was saying. He said attached to emptiness is like attached to home leaving. So part of his path to making home leaving become really alive, was to make the mistake of clinging to it. But that was part of his path, I guess he's saying, which is a really important point. So on our path to realizing home leaving, we will probably make mistakes and cling to it, which is not it, but we have to make that mistake and be really sorry that we made that mistake and maybe go and say, I'm sorry, Mom, I locked myself into the room.

[72:57]

I'm really sorry. I was clinging to what a monk is at that time. But now I'm not clinging anymore. In other words, now body and mind's dropped off, and I'm back with you. Please forgive me for attaching to what I thought a home labor was. That was a mistake. But I had to make it, because if I hadn't made it, I wouldn't have known it was a mistake. This is a good story. So, yeah, so... Not leaving home, you can cling to that, and that's a mistake. Leaving home, you can cling to that, that's a mistake. And we probably will make these mistakes. But then we can realize it's a mistake and confess it and let go of it. And by the way, I believe that Tetsugikai said the same thing to Kezan about leaving his mother.

[74:02]

Well, I think Kezan said, I can't join you because I have to take care of my mother. And I think Tetsugikai said, yeah, it's important to take care of your mother. What about taking care of all beings, including your mother? If you stay and take care of your mother, that's nice, but... you have another responsibility to take care of all beings, which you can do by home leaving. And maybe he grasped that, I don't know. But there was that, that happened. So then Kezan looked at this issue very deeply. It's a repetitive problem, a repetitive issue. When we leave, do we leave for the sake of what we're leaving? Do we leave our family for the sake of our family or for ourselves to become a great monk? If we do the second one, of course that's a mistake.

[75:07]

If we leave for our family and all beings, if we do that properly, that's the right way to do it. But there's maybe some sneakiness in there about me becoming, by the way, a great monk and attaching to that. Because it would be nice to be a great monk, right? Nice to be a great son, too. Yeah, it's nice to be a great son. And attaching to either is basically a mistake, but maybe more dangerous to attach to being a great monk. Thank you for all your contributions. Pastor, you spoke yesterday and I left and I thought, it's a story.

[76:49]

And that's... And that's another story. Yes. And then I thought, I'm free. And then I thought, the fish... swims lazily along. First I'd like to just thank everybody for listening to me cry.

[78:21]

It's a privilege. It's a privilege for me too. And my question is about devotion. I've had this question for a little while now and been turning it a lot during Sushi. And when Greg asked yesterday about getting married, and I think your answer was something like, we have this devotion to all beings. And it seems like there... in practice there is this devotion to everyone. And that seems more, I don't know, I can, like I, I can see that pretty easily, but then I don't quite understand

[79:41]

having a stronger commitment to a particular person or to your parents or to a community. I don't have a stronger commitment to my wife than I do to you. It's different. It seems like that kind of commitment in my life encourages a lot of, like, not home leaving a lot of the time. Like, I feel like I have security or I feel like I have... But that's not... The devotion which is trying to get security is not the devotion that I'm talking about. So, devoted to all beings is not for the sake of security. For me, it's for the sake of becoming free of concerns about security. Right. And devotion to my wife doesn't make me more secure. It may seem like it makes me more safe, but really not.

[80:48]

The more devoted I am, the more dangerous it gets. And I want not more danger, I want more vitality. The more alive, the more dangerous. devoted you are like why why have this manifestation of devotion well it's the more devoted I am means the more thorough I am about my devotion for example I do certain scheduling things with my wife that I don't do a Zen center and I and so I do certain scheduling things with her and I'm devoted to that scheduling And it means I try to give myself to schedule carefully, thoroughly, patiently, and respectfully with this person who maybe I need to make this arrangement with and I have to do it when it works for her.

[81:55]

But I have the same thing with other people too. So each person offers its unique opportunities for devotion. And nobody else is asking me to file joint tax reports. And I'm not attached to filling out tax forms. But I'm devoted to do that with her and help her do that. So each case, and the grandchildren and daughters and son-in-laws and... Each person requires, calls for a certain form of devotion, and I would like to be thorough with each one. And each one has its benefits in terms of pointing out places where I might be not being thorough. But it's not more devoted.

[83:00]

So is that… you make a more formal commitment is to have someone point out more areas where you're not being thorough? That's why I do it. Is to make more formal and detailed commitments to help discover where I'm not being thorough. To help me be thorough so body and mind drops off. with wife, with husband, with friend, with teacher, with student, with dog, with cat. Thorough, detailed, meticulous attention to the commitments. And then we start to notice the sloppinesses. And then we can confess and repent and go back and try again. And in the thoroughness of taking our seat in that relationship,

[84:03]

We accomplished what we really want in this life, and everybody we're committed to is included in that liberation. You're welcome. As I often say, the first wedding ceremony I saw Suzuki Rashi do, he said, love is important, but respect is maybe more important. And he also said, with your acquaintances, you can be informal. But when you get intimate with people, you need some formality.

[85:07]

What keeps coming up in her cave is the question, what's the point? So I hear the question, what's the point? hear the question, what's the point? Is there anything else you want to say? Do you have an answer? I just said, I hear the question, what's the point? I hear it. That's my job, is to listen to questions. What's your job? To ask them.

[86:50]

So you're not going to listen to the questions? I'm listening to them, that's why I need to ask them. Pardon? That's why I ask them, is because I hear them, and what it feels like is... But when you ask them, when you ask them, are you listening to them? Yes, I'm sure that's possible, always with my listening. Yeah, so that's why I asked you. I'm listening, I wonder if you are too. Avalokiteshvara is listening, are you listening? Is that what you want to do? You want to be like Avalokiteshvar? Okay. Well, if you're listening, you're on the job. Do you want something, anything more than that? Than Avalokiteshvar's job? Do you? By any chance? Want more than that? Do you want anything more than listening to that?

[87:56]

what is more than Avalokiteshvara's job? I want to know what it means. Does Avalokiteshvara want to know what it means? Why wouldn't she? Does she or doesn't she? If it would be helpful, I think she would. If it would be helpful. But before she finds out it's helpful, does she want to? I don't know. Do you want me to tell you the answer? Alpha Lucky Teshpar is not trying to get anything. She's not trying to get what it means. She's like doing her job of listening to the cries like, what does it mean? What's the point? She's listening to that. That's her job. That creates an ocean of blessings

[88:59]

trying to get things, she does not do. That's not her job. If you want to get things, that's fine, she's listening to you. Try to get things. If you want to do her job, listen to these cries to get something. So, it would be good if you decide, do you want to do Avila Kiteshvara's job, or do you want to get stuff? Okay, good. I just... It's also... I don't know what... Yeah, I guess maybe I'm trying to learn how to listen to this karmic consciousness that feels like it needs to know why this world is so unjust. It doesn't need to know why. It just feels like it needs to know why. Yeah. Avalokiteshvara, you said you wanted to learn how to listen? Yeah. Yeah, and I'm trying to help you learn how to listen.

[90:01]

You already know how to cry for meaning. You already know how to try to get something. You got that down. Now, if you want to learn how to listen, I'll be happy to help you learn how to listen. And I'm trying right now. Like, for example, asking you, are you listening to this cry? I hear it. I'm listening. Are you listening too? Avalokiteshvar is listening to the cry. What does it mean? Avalokiteshvar is not trying to get anything. meaning, or the point. Avalok Dispar is the point, is the meaning. And that work creates an ocean of blessing beyond measure. She's a very good listener. She does not get anything out of it. However, the listening in which she doesn't get anything creates the world a blessing.

[91:04]

It doesn't mean you have to stop making calls. You will continue, but you already got that going. What you said you want to do is learn how to listen. And we're happy to help you learn how to listen. When reality came to Judy, she asked him to speak. She did. Reality asked Judy to speak. And Judy, I guess Judy thought, I should be able to speak, but I can't. And also, I want her to take her hat off. But Avalokiteshvar, whatever Judy's calls were, Avalokiteshvar was listening. And then Avalokiteshvar came to visit him. After he couldn't meet reality according to reality's requirements, His call was responded to by the great celestial dragon Avalokiteshvara, who came and helped him listen fully.

[92:23]

May I learn to do the same. May you learn to do the same. With all beings. With all beings. This monk wants to learn to listen like Avalokiteshvara. We witness your wish. So that line, the story about Matsu and then the line from the poem, that's from a koan collection, right? The story about Matsu is in two koan collections and other places too, but it's in the Blue Cliff Record and it's in the Book of Serenity.

[93:38]

And it's also in the classic record of monks. And the poem that I recited this morning is from the Blue Cliff Record. So... Tomorrow I'll do the Book of Serenity. So from my understanding, or from what I've read, you know, gung'an was a term borrowed from the Chinese legal system, like directly from the legal system, where it wasn't the magistrates making the... By the way, gung'an is koan, right? Koan was borrowed from the legal system. And so, you know, when I think about... And, you know, the idea was it was borrowed so that practitioners and monks could make judgments on these stories and be the judges. And so I think about that line, you know, what kind of people were these ancient emperors? You know, how can we learn from them? And what hit me was you and Leslie had an exchange yesterday right here, and she said something about

[94:47]

You know, he said she was pecking at you, and then she was like, is that the time at the gatehouse, or the guesthouse? There was a meeting at the guesthouse she was thinking of? Yeah. Yeah? Did she tell us that story? I think I should do that story with Leslie. Ah, okay. Well, so, what can we learn from friendships like yours and Leslie's spiritual friendship? The Buddha way. The Buddha way. We learn the Buddha way through friendship, like the Buddha said, right? You know that story? It's a sutra called the half sutra. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a half sutra. It's a sutra called the half sutra. Yeah. And Ananda says what? Ananda says, you know, good friendship, noble friendship, you know, with good friends. It's like half the holy path.

[95:50]

And Buddha says, don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Good friendship, noble friendship is the whole Buddha way. So when I remember reading that, I think about teacher-student relationship. Yeah, that's right. So can you talk about the peer-to-peer relationship that maybe you and Leslie have? Well, it's basically the same. It's with peers, but also, in the first part of the sutra, Buddha just talks about good friendship. I think most people feel that he's talking about good friendship with peers. But then later, at the end of the sutra, he says, by relying on me as a good friend. So it's with friends, and it's also with the big other. So it's both. And one without the other isn't the complete story.

[96:54]

So learning from teachers, learning from peers, kind of the same thing. But what makes you a teacher and me a student besides those really sweet robes? That's about it. So are you learning from us all the time? Yep. What have you learned in this practice period? it continues to be challenging to sit on the Dharma seat and raise the Dharma flag. Is that your one teaching these days or just face-to-face transmission? Or are they the same thing? Yeah, I thought that was the same thing. What were the two? How hard it is to sit on that seat and face-to-face transmission. Well, it's not so much how hard it is. It's just that it is hard. But sitting on the seat makes possible face-to-face transmission. If I'm not willing to sit on the seat, then I don't have a face to give to the transmission.

[98:01]

I give my face from here. And being here, being in this dragon cave, is difficult. It's challenging to be thorough enough. to be completely wholeheartedly here. That's a challenge, moment by moment. And from this place, when you can really be here, then you can raise the Dharma flag, then you can advertise that you're ready to give your face and receive a face. Yeah. Is it important to have someone in that seat raising that flag? I know there's some traditions where the teacher is just not that important. I think Leslie even said, you don't really need to have a teacher. I think you're her teacher, by the way. She has a document that testifies.

[99:06]

Anyway... Are you asking me if I think having a teacher is important? Yeah. One thing I would say in response to that question is that's similar to asking me if the Dharma is important. Because really the point of the teacher is the Dharma. And we cannot get the Dharma by ourself.

[100:09]

We need to use a teacher to realize the Dharma. Not that the teacher has the Dharma and gives it to us, but we need that kind of relationship in order... hear the true Dharma. But really when we meet the teacher, it's really the Dharma that's the point. It's what the teacher is teaching. It's what the teacher is, is the Dharma. So, yeah, I think if you want the truth, you want the teaching, then the teacher goes with that. You can't just go, take it. even though it's in all those nice books. It has to be given to you. And we have to understand that it's been given to us and that we actually asked for it. And somebody said, okay. And they gave it to us and we received it.

[101:11]

That's the Dharma, is to understand that relationship. So we need the relationship in order to understand the truth. Because the truth... The truth according to Pope Francis is relationship. I agree with that. So, is the truth important? Well, then teacher's important. Is teacher important? Well, if truth's important, I would say teacher's important. Is truth essential? Then teacher's essential. Is teacher essential? Well, then truth's essential. Because teacher's about the truth. It's not just about that person. It's about a relationship where you realize the truth of our life. And everybody could be that, but sometimes it helps if the person puts on really nice-looking robes. I mean, they're really nice. That's a nice color. Yeah, yeah.

[102:19]

And I was very happy to see the flowers this morning. I knew you were back on the job. Welcome back. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[102:49]

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