Good evening. You made it. Jordan, I wanted to thank you for allowing me to speak tonight, asking me. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Tonight, I thought I'd talk about the Genjo Koan, not the whole thing, of course. That would take a lot longer than 40 minutes. But a little section of it. And I know that a bunch of you studied it with Paul recently, a few months ago. So, you know, you'll be right up there ready to go along with me on this. So the part I want to talk about is the quote, firewood becomes ash. It can never go back to being firewood. Nevertheless, we should not take the view that ash is its future and firewood is its past.

[01:11]

Remember, firewood abides in the place of firewood in the Dharma. It has a past, it has a future. Although it has a past and future, the past and future are cut off. Does this need to be cranked up quite so much? You know, it seems kind of high. Because I can definitely talk louder, but I don't want it kind of reverbing back to me. OK, so. So this isn't I think this is to me, it's a very interesting quote, because the first time I encountered it, it was like, what does this mean? Like a lot of the Genjo Koan. So I just want to assure you that although I don't think I'm an expert on the Genjo Koan. Some clarity does come along the longer you practice. It's sort of like koans, you know, they start, oh, this actually means something. So we have to start out with that faith initially that that these texts that we don't understand actually have some really deep meaning that speaks to us.

[02:15]

OK, so firewood becomes ash. It can never go back to being firewood. So, you know, that's pretty simple. We all kind of agree on that. And then he says, nevertheless, we should not take the view that ash is its future and firewood is its past. So this is a really important point here, because often with most of the things we encounter, we know that they have a past. We assume they have a future. And that really does say something to us about the nature of the reality of that object or that encounter that we're having. And it informs the kind of relationship that we have. So it's interesting to me that Dogen uses the word firewood. He doesn't say a log. So he uses the word firewood. So that word in and of itself gives us this idea that there is some kind of causal relationship going on. So he says, so nevertheless, we should not take the view that ash is its future and firewood is its past.

[03:16]

Remember, firewood abides in the place of firewood in the Dharma. It has a past and it has a future. So he's not denying the cause of relationship. But he says, although it has a past and a future, the past and the future are cut off. So what he's talking about here is this specific moment in time in which we find ourselves, in which we can make a choice, if you will, about how we're going to respond to that moment. And we can make a choice by... bringing in all of our ideas about what that moment is all the kind of baggage if you will of our understanding of that moment or we can just take the moment exactly for what it is right at that point in time without thinking about it without having some preconceived idea about what it is but just a total acceptance of that moment right then responding

[04:18]

appropriately for that moment, appropriately for what's arising in that moment. So I'll give you an example. The example I have for you tonight is you go into the bathroom and you discover that there's no toilet paper on the wall. OK, so. Or you go into the small kitchen and you find out that somebody left just enough milk in the bottom of the milk container so that they did not have to replace it. OK, so what are you going to do at that moment? So if we look at the toilet paper example, if you just go in and replace the toilet paper without any idea about. being angry or upset about your sangha members, the rest of the residents in the group, or anything like that, but just say, oh, the toilet paper needs to be replaced, so that's all I'm going to do in this moment.

[05:21]

I don't have any ideas about who did it or who did something or didn't do something or I'm not upset about it or any of that kind of stuff. It just, this is this moment, totally right at this moment. Yes, it has a past and it has a future, but actually what required and requested of me at that moment is just to put new toilet paper on the wall that's it nothing else so in that moment firewood is just firewood and firewood does not become ash at that moment and firewood wasn't a tree before that moment firewood is just completely firewood right in that moment and so that's all we need to do I think about You know, when Dogen talks about this, he's talking about it from the perspective of the absolute. So often I think it's hard for us to come up with everyday examples because when we think of the absolute, we think of it as being something that's kind of like we can't quite get a hold of it.

[06:25]

But I think actually what that is, when we have that kind of response, it's a response that's a kind of non-intellectual response. So Edward Conce has this... Phrase that he uses in the Prajnaparamita Sutras, he says, coursing in emptiness. And what I think of when I think of that is surfing. So Jaapu and I just spent a year and a half living in Santa Cruz and surfing is a big thing in Santa Cruz. But when you think about it, surfing is this just a lot of physical sports are like this. You know, it's just this complete body and mind. event that's going on. And it's not about some kind of intellectual idea about what you're doing. You know, it's like you paddle out on your board and you get out there and you wait for the surf and you're just having this whole complete experience that's happening. And then you catch the wave and you ride the wave. And you're just having that experience without a whole lot of intellectual activity going on. So, you know, it's hard to describe exactly what this is that we're

[07:32]

I think maybe trying to do, if you will. But it's something about a complete and total response that's appropriate for any given situation, for just the situation as it is in that moment. And that's a really important part of this, is that we accept the situation for what it is in that moment, without any kind of ideas about what we want it to be or some kinds of shoulds about the moment, but that actually what it is. And what it is in that moment is there is no toilet paper on the roll. That's it. And all we have to do is just put some more paper on the roll. We don't have to find anybody. We don't have to tell anybody. We don't have to punish anybody. We don't have to feel like we're better Zen students than somebody else is because we did this noble grand gesture of putting the paper back on the roll. We just do this thing. And that sounds like a really simple thing, but actually I think it's a very important practice that we can all practice right here at San Francisco Zen Center.

[08:37]

I've actually been trying to do this practice for years. Nobody else is there. Nobody sees you. That's it. But it has a huge impact on the community. It's like we're all interconnected. in this task. We're all interconnected with each other. And so when we think about the next person, not to mention the fact that we might want to use it ourselves, but when we think about the next person, when we don't run off and leave something kind of half done, it has an effect on the rest of the sangha. It has not just a kind of practical effect, but think about it. When you do something like this, you actually spare someone else from having to have the ill will that might arise for them. at that moment by sort of doing this thing, offering that to your brothers and sisters, not leaving the last little drop of milk in the milk carton so you don't have to replace it. That's actually a bodhisattva act.

[09:43]

You know, we don't have to go out and do something heroic. That in itself is heroic. It's letting go of your attachment to some idea about yourself on some level. It's saying it's just stopping and just being present for what's happening. The next thing is not the most important thing. The most important thing in that moment is getting a new carton of milk. That's our practice, isn't it? To do those little things. So Dogen says, I'll read the quote again, firewood becomes ash. It can never go back to being firewood. So each moment in and of itself is a completely new moment. Even if we have done that activity before, it is still a completely new moment.

[10:46]

Within that moment, we have the opportunity to leave that moment differently. then we may have come into it. So this is kind of like this way I think about it. It's like a moment is at 360 degree possibilities. So we come into a moment with certain ideas that we have and certain ways of being and certain baggage, if you will, into that moment. And that informs our understanding. So if we come into that moment with an understanding that's really rigid, in which we don't have the ability for flexibility, if we come into an encounter with a very rigid notion, then It's like that's going to inform how we exit that moment. It's going to inform how we actually act. And so at that point, we have a very narrow sliver of response in that moment. But if we go into the moment in which anything is possible, right, in which we go into the moment in which, you know, firewood becomes ash, you can never go back to being firewood,

[11:51]

Nevertheless, we should not take the view that ash is its future and firewood is its past. If we take that view of completely being present, then our response within that moment can have a complete realm of possibility. It isn't a narrow response. So if we're having a conversation with someone, say we have a difficult time with this person, and we already have preconceived ideas about how that's going to go, who that person is, what we think they're going to say, So if we go into a conversation with that narrow band of an idea of what's going to happen, the chances are good that that's what's going to happen in that moment, right? It's like that person could have totally changed. They could be a totally different person and actually you could help them. You could allow them to be a totally different person in that moment. Wouldn't it be nice if every time we had an interaction, the people that we interacted with allowed us to change, allowed us to have the space to be the best that we can be, to use an expression like that.

[12:53]

You know, allowed us to fully blossom in who we are without any preconceived, negative preconceived ideas about what the interaction was going to be like. And so when we do that, the way we hear what someone says to us is different than the way we hear something if we have a negative idea about that interaction. So Dogen's saying, go into that moment And allow the full possibility of that moment to be present. Whatever that moment is, the kind of positive possibilities of that moment to come forth. So we should not take the view that ash is its future and firewood is its past. Remember, firewood abides in the place of firewood in the Dharma. So he's saying, at that moment of firewood, let it completely abide in that moment. Let yourself. completely abide in that moment. In Bodhisattva Shishobo, he says, to allow the self, Jack, would you remember this, to let the self be the self?

[14:01]

Is that how it is? Do you remember the quote? It's something like, to allow the self to be the self. But the idea of this is that you allow your true self to come forward. If we can relax enough to really allow who we are, to come forward, to trust, even trust ourselves enough to let go of the ideas of who we are, who we are. So often we go into a situation, we get, you know, we're so worried about having fat heads, we're so worried about being egotistical that often it's like we have this really negative view of ourselves. So can we just allow ourselves to be completely who we are in that moment without any kind of negative ideas about about that moment or even coming out of the moment. I don't know about you guys, but I often come out of the moment and I say, oh, geez, I knew that or I said this or whatever it is, you know, but just allowing it to let go, just let go, you know.

[15:02]

So it says he's not denying that there is a past and it is a future. He says, although, but he says, although it has a past and a future, the past and the future are cut off. So I think when he says are cut off, he's not talking about something like repression. He's just saying that if you fully allow that moment to happen, they are essentially cut off in a certain way. They're part of that moment, but they're also not part of that moment. So we kind of hold both of those things at the same time. And the thing is, he says in another festival in Shishobo, he says, the task of cooperation means, for example, concrete behavior, a dignified attitude in a real situation. So here he's saying, you know, we need to take these teachings that he's offering us. And he's saying this is a real situation. This is a concrete moment.

[16:06]

This is not some kind of idea that we have about practice, about emptiness or something like that. This is like, how does this work in real life? How are you going to do this thing in real life? And here, when he says the task of cooperation, he's talking about this kind of cooperation that incorporates the interconnectedness of all beings. So also in in the Gensh of Koan, He says, to carry yourself forward and experience myriad things as delusion, that myriad things come forth and experience themselves as awakening. So this is exactly what this business about firewood and ash is, said from a different point of view. He's saying here, if you carry yourself forward into the moment, if you carry your ideas into the moment, if you carry all the preconceptions that you have into this moment,

[17:07]

these kind of places where we get caught, this kind of delusion, if we carry that, we call that the self, right? We call that the small self, the clinging self. If we carry that forward into the moment, then that's delusion. But if we allow everything to come forth at the same time, that's realization. And when everything comes forth at the same time, it's not like everything comes forth and you don't. It's like you're part of that everything. So it's a recognition that in that moment, this moment in which we don't bring in these preconceived ideas, you're allowing everything to arise together. So in the conversation, you're actually listening to what's going on. You're present for what's happening as opposed to what's happening in your head. We all have conversations where we're having a conversation, but we're actually thinking something else. we're thinking what our response will be before we even let the person get done with what they're saying.

[18:13]

So this idea of letting things come forward, letting things come forth together. And also this kind of activity, I think, is true renunciation. We often have these ideas about renunciation that they have to do with... You know, I'm not going to eat meat anymore or I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to wear white for the rest of my life or I'm going to burn all my journals or, you know, I don't know. You guys fill in the blanks. And it might be that that some of those kinds of practices are really helpful to us. But often there are practices that we kind of make up on our own. So in some ways, when we do that, we just reify our ideas. of ourselves as being kind of sacred beings when we do stuff like that. What's harder is to be incorporated into a sangha in which we have to let go of our ideas of how things should be.

[19:18]

That, I think, is more difficult. Pema Chodron says, renunciation is a teaching to inspire us to investigate what's happening every time we grab onto anything. So she says, you know, this is the actual activity of renunciation, is to investigate what's happening whenever we cling to something and then try to open your hand, you know, opening the hand, letting go, letting go of whatever our ideas are or whatever our clinging is that's coming up at that moment. I'm not saying here when I say this, I'm not saying that you don't ever have opinions or you don't ever take action or anything like that. But I'm saying, you know, in a particular moment in which we are interacting, can we just let go? Can we just be present for what's happening and let go of our own trip at that moment and just be with what's happening?

[20:21]

Some moments it's appropriate for us to, you know, to come forward and take some action in a certain way. In other moments, it's not appropriate for us to do that. We should be doing something else. How we determine what the correct or skillful means are in a particular moment have to do with a lot of different factors. So it's hard to talk about it in the abstract. But what allows us to do that is that we can completely be present. And then she also says, Pema Chodron also says, This is where renunciation enters the picture. Renunciation of the hope that our experience could be different. So again, this is going back to accepting in the moment what's happening in the moment. It's not saying that you have to accept a situation forever and ever. Maybe you want to do something to change it. But in that particular moment, we have to address things as they are. We can't, you know, think it's going to be something, we can want it to be something different, but as soon as we start doing that and not sort of being with what's happening at that moment, then we're not present for what's going on.

[21:31]

And when you're not present for what's going on, it's a lot more difficult to affect change. You know, I'll give you an example of what I think of this is that we all know that when... We are corrected for something or given some piece of information about some behavior that we've done that somebody else doesn't like. If it's done in a way that is really critical and there isn't some openness to who we are, we shut down and become defensive. We don't want to have change at that moment. We want to resist this thing, this person who's talking to us. So that's that kind of situation where. There is not openness to us. You know, we want to be seen in a certain way. And so part of our job for each other is to see each other, to see what we offer, to see what we what the other person has of value, is to understand that other person's predicament and allow kind of openness to happen at that point.

[22:35]

And doing that is is a kind of renunciation. And it's a difficult kind of renunciation that we can practice. So it's letting go of self-clinging. It's letting go of ideas about self. And when we do that, again, going back to the original quote, when we do that, we can really be in that moment without any other ideas going on about what should or shouldn't be happening at that time. So I think I'm going to stop there and, you know, see if anybody has any questions or comments. Because I know you guys studied again, so I think that there ought to be someone in here who can. Yes. The ash. Well, the ash is ash abiding in the position of ash. Where'd you go?

[23:41]

So he's just talking about this place of firewood in this example, and he's using ash as something in the future. So when we go to that position of ash, then that is just the position of ash. And so, you know, you could say, what would you say here? You would say ash becomes... I don't know, the inside of an incensor? What does ash become? Ash becomes ash, ash becomes dirt, ash becomes, yeah, plants, it has to go somewhere. It can never go back to being whatever it was. It's like that. Yeah. If you're suffering from an emotion, What would you recommend?

[24:46]

Just experience the emotion or try to get away from that? I suppose there's two things you can do, but I don't know how to get out of the emotion that's really upsetting and there's no easy answer. Well, you know, you can't get out of it. It's like you really have to just be there with whatever's coming up for you. That's part of that thing about accepting the situation just the way it is. It's like we accept the fact that we're having this emotion, you know, and often the willingness to be present for that will really help take away some of it, the feeling of being overwhelmed by it, you know. And when we try to push things like that away, It's almost like they're little monsters that run after us and jump on our backs, you know. It's like we can't push that stuff away.

[25:48]

We have to really be present for it. And you can think of it like a friend, you know. Often we think of things that are overwhelming as enemies that we have to get rid of. But actually, if we can turn around and say to ourselves, you know, what is it? the kind of curiosity about what's happening and be willing to be present for it, that helps. And sometimes it's really hard, really hard to do that. But you don't want to push it away or repress it because then it just, you know, whatever's happening just becomes worse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we just, you know, unfortunately, I say the word unfortunately from the perspective of the small self. It's like, you know, we're stuck. And the other thing is our wisdom comes from those places.

[26:55]

The things that we really grapple with and the things that are difficult for us and the things that bring us suffering is actually where our wisdom comes from. Because, you know, wisdom and compassion are the same thing. And I feel like what we want to cultivate is a kind of compassion and understanding of our situation as human beings. And the way we do that is through our own experience and through empathy with others' experience. And the way that happens is often through our pain. If everything were perfect, if our lives were perfect, we wouldn't get it, what was going on with other people. You know, we'd be like, oh, you know, I don't have any way to relate to you. I can't sort of bridge that gap. but we bridge that gap through our own suffering and through our empathy with others. So emotions are not, you know, they feel like big problems, but actually they're sort of, you know, the grist for the mill, the juice. Yeah.

[28:05]

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, it brings up for me, you know, there's I think there's ways to kind of talk about this. One way is this way of we just do this thing and we don't have any of those kind of emotions. We just do them. Right. But often our practice is not like that. Actually, when it's like that, I'm not sure that it's even conscious for us, right? You know, it's like Buddhas go on being, actualizing Buddhas, not even realizing that they're actualizing Buddhas, right? You know, it's like we don't even kind of get that part. But often our practice is just that. You know, we go in, the rules and the toilet paper, we have to go through this process of, you know, oh, I'm upset and angry about this, but... You know, maybe this isn't what I want to feel.

[29:07]

This is clinging or four double truths, you know, all this kind of stuff that we go through. And yet that process helps us, you know, wear out and sort of deconstruct these experiences, these sort of negative clinging experiences that we're having. And then eventually we change the toilet paper and we don't even think anything about it. We just change it. You know, so so so those are ways of there. There's that way of practicing where it just happens. There's a way of practicing where we really have to kind of angst and think about it. There's a way of practicing where, you know, we're doing that. And then there's just delusion where that doesn't happen at all. We just get mad. You know, we don't even think about it as some kind of Bodhisattva thing or anything like that. We're just like off on air about something. And then since, of course, all of us are practicing, we pull ourselves back at some point and say, oh, yeah.

[30:08]

Well, I did that again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I practice. Absolutely. You can't. You've got to hold those stories lightly because, you know, they're good stories in the sense that they help you develop, like, what if it were me, that kind of situation. So I find that a really helpful practice. I just say, you know, well, and pay attention to the times when it does happen to you. I mean, sometimes things happen where you have some idea about it and then you hear what happens and you go, oh, I'm so glad I didn't say anything. You know, because you realize that you're way off of left field. It's important to kind of hold those experiences as good learning experiences. But that's what I do. It's something happens and I say to myself, you know, maybe that person is late for work, whatever.

[31:14]

Or I remind myself all the times I've done screwy stuff that I haven't heard about. And it might not be. Of course, I'm a paragon of replacing toilet paper. But I can assure you there are other aspects of my life where I'm not. Right. So it's like those things even out. Right. You know, we can never like go off here on this side about how great we are without knowing that over here we're doing something screwy. And that's true for everybody else. So we would like people to give us that benefit of the doubt. And so I completely agree with you. I think it's a great way to develop that. Remind yourself of that. That kind of practice. And, you know, that's a kind of steps and stages practice. That's just like you just have to keep working at it and working at it and working at it. You know, I think about for myself, my image of this is you're trying to move the Queen Mary with a rowboat. So there you are. Oh, you know, like this.

[32:15]

And it takes a long time. It takes a long time to move the rowboat, to move the Queen Mary, maybe to move the rowboat, too. They're attached, right? So it just takes a long time to kind of re-educate ourselves, if you will. And then sometimes things just happen. You don't have to work so hard. Anybody else? Okay.

[32:47]

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