And what have you been studying? Something that I've been studying. So what actually I've been interested in and studying in our practice period at Berkeley, I gave a class which I called Light and Dark. This has always interested me ever since I can remember. It's a... a part of Soto Zen that's rarely ever studied or exposed. It's all throughout the literature of Soto Zen and Buddhism, of course, but people pass over it because it seems like it's just a metaphor. for something else. So we say, and light and illumination, yeah, uh-huh.

[01:05]

But for me, that's substantial. When I think about light, I think about something substantial, not something that refers to something else. So I didn't know how I was going to do this class, so I just started and kind of found my way I have all these books that refer to light in Zen practice, not to mention Buddhism or all the religions of the world and spiritual practices. The most common term, I think, for all religions and spiritual practices is the term light. So this is where I think All those practices meet. But what they all mean by it may be different things. Or the same thing.

[02:07]

I don't really care. I just want to talk about it as what it means to me as our understanding of social Zen and Buddhism. So if we look at the lineage of Soto Zen, I don't know how many of you are conversing with the lineage of Soto Zen. For long-time practitioners and priests, of course, we chant the names every day of the ancestors. when you look at what they are talking about, they're using this term all the time. Keizan Zenji, who was the third ancestor of Soto Zen in Japan, put together a book called The Transmission of Light, which is the transmission from one patriarch or ancestor to another.

[03:24]

And Dogen's Zen was heavily influenced by Hung Jue's silent illumination. Silent illumination Zen. And Zazen is actually silent illumination. So when we practice the Zen, we're practicing silent illumination Zen, or the Samadhi of light. But nobody ever talks about it very much. Suzuki Roshi kind of skirted around it. He was able to talk all about it without saying so. Because Suzuki Roshi, He said, I don't want to give you anything fancy or anything that you can hold on to or anything that tells you what zazen is or what to expect in zazen.

[04:35]

So he was very, very careful not to say anything that would give us some special idea about what zazen was. Zazen is zazen. Just be present. Totally present. But the other ancestors had not descriptions, but pointing to something. No one ever described what zazen is, but simply pointing to something. Dogen liked to use the term Buddha nature, which is a Mahayana term for the fundamental ground of our nature. But the ancestors also used the term light and so did Dogen. Dogen wrote a fascicle called Komyo. Komyo means something like radiant light or sticking his neck out called divine light.

[05:47]

Buddhism always avoids a deity. even though it always creeps in. And Suzuki Roshi says, well, people think that Buddhism doesn't believe in God and so forth. But it's not that exactly. It's that that's not where we land. We're always going into a territory that's beyond any concept. So it's not... God or not God, people sometimes think, well, Buddhism is atheistic. It's not atheistic, it's non-theistic. How can a religion be non-theistic? That's their problem. I'm going to start with this koan of Master Yunmen.

[07:00]

Yunmen was one of the most prominent Zen teachers in the Tang Dynasty in China, along with Zhou Shu, Master Zhou Shu, and Douzan, and Wenzai. But Master Yunmen is very special. And he has a fascicle, which I'll read to you. Not a fascicle, but a koan that has appeared in the booklet record. So this is... It's entitled to various things depending on who the translator was. But this translator translated it as, everyone has their own light.

[08:09]

I would have translated it as, you all have your own light. I like to address the person rather than talking about something. somebody else, or even though you may be included, you all have your own life. I think that's what human meant. And in the book of record, there's always an introduction, usually, most always, by Master Ngo, who gives us a kind of way into this koan, or something you think about, about the koan. It says, controlling the world, he allows not the least speck of dust to escape, he meaning Master Yunman, he cuts off all the deluded streams of thought, leaving not a drop behind. If you open your mouth, you are mistaken. If you doubt for a moment, you have missed the way. Tell me, what is the eye that has pierced the barriers?

[09:15]

And then he says, see the following, which is the koan. and that is Master Yunman's koan. Yunman spoke to his assembly and said, you all have your own light, but if you try to see it, everything becomes dark and dim. What is your own light? And then later, in place of his disciples, he said, the hall, well, he said more than that, depending on them. the halls, the Buddha hall, the pantry, the main gate, and the storeroom. And again, he said, even a good thing is not as good as no thing. So, Yunman is explaining, not explaining, but addressing

[10:20]

his students. Controlling the world, he allows not the least speck of dust to escape. He doesn't give people anywhere to go. He's holding his students there without explaining and giving them a koan. He doesn't leak. He doesn't say, well, you know, I'll give you some hints. So he cuts off all the diluted streams of thought, leaving not a drop behind. In other words, there's no place to go. Even if you open your mouth, you're mistaken. You can't say. If you doubt for a moment, you've missed away. This is very important. Doubt for a moment. No hesitation. Hesitation cuts you off. Doubt cuts you off.

[11:22]

So, in a sense, he's saying, if you want to realize this, no doubt and no hesitation. No discrimination. Just cut off all the discriminating thoughts in your mind and just be. And then you'll understand what I'm saying. So, tell me. What is the eye that has pierced the barriers? And then Setyo has a verse and he says, it illuminates itself. Absolutely bright. He, meaning Mu'uman, gives a clue to the secret. Flowers have fallen, trees give no shade. Who does not see if he looks? Seeing is non-seeing.

[12:24]

Non-seeing is seeing. Facing backward on the ox, he rides into the Buddha hall. Got a little bit of Chinese poetry there. It illuminates itself, meaning light, of course. Absolutely bright. He gives a clue to the secret. He's actually saying something. Flowers have fallen and trees give no shade. Flowers have fallen and trees give no shade. There's nothing to obscure the light. All the flowers have fallen off the trees. It's like here. When I took a walk up the road, I can see the mountain. Whereas before the fire, I couldn't see the mountain for the trees. But now I can see the mountain.

[13:29]

So this is kind of like that. All the flowers have fallen from the trees and there's nothing to obscure you. Nothing to obscure your realization. So who does not see if she looks? Seeing is non-seeing and non-seeing is seeing. You know, there's something wrong with our, something, we have a problem with our seeing. Because our seeing gives us some idea of what's there. But rarely do we see what we see. There is a whole process of, according to our Buddhist understanding, of creating a picture in our mind. of what we see and then we develop the picture more and more as we try to understand and pretty soon we're only seeing the picture we're not really experiencing the thing in itself so here seeing is not seeing non-seeing is really seeing when you let go of your idea of what something is no naming

[14:53]

just simply this, then you can experience what's there, truly. There is a wonderful book which I could just simply sit down and read to you, which would verify exactly what he's talking about, but I might do that, but not now, about a blind man who, after he went blind, could actually see. And he realized that sighted people don't really see what they see. But because he didn't have to rely on his eyes, he could actually see. And he sounds just like Dogen. I'll read some of that later. So facing backwards on the ox, meaning he rides into the Buddha hall, meaning when you really see

[15:57]

and you really have let go of the barriers to experiencing your own light, then you have the freedom to go anywhere you want. You're not bound by anything. That's his message. But he also says, you know, even a good thing, you know, maybe better than nothing. So be very careful not to explain, because he can make it seem like a good thing, but he's not going to say it. So this is a kind of problem that we have in explaining something. Suzuki Roshi, I remember him saying, you know, in Zen when we give a talk we make a mistake on purpose. Just talking about something is a mistake, but we have to do it anyway, so we know that we're making mistakes.

[17:04]

I was talking with somebody, and they said, well, maybe it's better not to say anything. And I said, well, yes, that's so, but if we don't say anything, then nothing gets communicated. So... I've always, this has been one of my very favorite koans, because I've always been interested in this subject ever since I can remember. And as I more and more found things to study that verify this, that verify Yen Lin's koan, it gives me much more confidence. But I've always... I so resonate with that. I've always felt that sitting zazen is simply a vessel for light.

[18:07]

What other reason would you sit zazen for? People say, well, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just sitting there, nothing's happening. The nothing is happening is what is so hard to deal with because nothing seems like nothing. Because we're so involved with something, that we're on this level of something, [...] something. Something leading to something, leading to something, leading to something. And below that is this level of reality that we hardly let ourselves sink into. At the same time, we know there's something there, even though we don't know what it is. Otherwise, we wouldn't continue.

[19:08]

So, Master Dogen has a commentary on this koan. And then his disciple, Ejo, has a commentary on Dogen's commentary on this koan. It would take some time to read all of it, but I will. Yeah, lost it. And this koan is called Komyo, or Divine Light. There's a samadhi called Komyo-zo-zamai. There are many samadhis. I'll talk about that a little bit after I read this. It's interesting, the word divine, of course, comes from the Greek dhyana, dhyana, dhyana, and Sanskrit divya means celestial, and deva is a god or a spirit

[20:28]

And also divine kind of means luminous. So there are all these elements, but usually it's translated as radiant light. In esoteric Buddhism, Shingon, the primary Buddha is Vairochana. Vairuchana is called the Buddha of Radiant Light. And so this is the primal Buddha. Zen, you know, doesn't have any doctrine or imagery, really, except, you know, like cartoons. Zen, zenga, circles and things. But we take Zen

[21:29]

It takes all this literature from Buddhism and all of its procedures, like ceremonial stuff, from Shingon Buddhism, because that's what they do. So it's kind of borrowed, actually. But Zen really has no special shape or form. and doesn't rely on anything. Even though, I don't say we don't rely, but we're independent from all of the literature, all of the Buddhism, except that we totally use it and appreciate it. And it helps us. So, here's Dogen's opening statement. He says, a great master, Chisha, which is Changsha in Japanese, of the Song Dynasty, once told his followers, the entire world is reflected in the eye of a monk.

[22:41]

The entire world is contained in everyday conversation. The entire world, or universe, is throughout your body, and the entire world is your own divine light. This is Dogen. the entire world is within your divine light, and the entire world is inseparable from yourself. So, there's a saying, an old Zen saying, that your true self is the entire universe. Kadigiri Roshi once said, the enlightened person's halo is the entire universe. So when we start talking about halos, we get into kind of funny territory, maybe. But I don't think it's strange territory at all.

[23:43]

I think everyone has, you can see people's light. I mean, it's just obvious, isn't it? The thing is, the most obvious thing is what we don't see. This is the big problem. the biggest problem we have is the most obvious things right in front of our face is what we don't see. So seeing is not seeing. When we let go of this kind of seeing, then we can really see. So everyone who is seeking the Buddhist way should study this teaching diligently and never become slack. If they do, there will be very few Zen students with the divine light of enlightenment. So what is enlightenment? How can you use the word enlightenment without thinking about light? So, Dogen, or Dogen, practice itself is enlightenment.

[24:48]

Because practice is being a vessel for light. Enlightenment is allowing light to be present. And it's fully functioning. So we have all these stories of Zen masters getting enlightened suddenly. What is their experience? They won't say. So this is what it what it means to let go of ego. Ego is a false sense of self. In psychology, ego has a different meaning. But in Buddhism, it simply means that which is not real.

[25:52]

That which is a construction of a self. And the self becomes reinforced through greed, ill will, and delusion. And becomes stronger and stronger. So when we let go of greed, ill will, and delusion, which is ego, then there's no obstruction. So the problem is we're simply obstructionists. without meaning to be. So, he says, Chinese Emperor Ko Myo, which actually means light, of Gokhan, was the fourth child of Emperor Kobo. And his era was called the 10th A-He, A.D. 51. During this reign, Buddhism was first transmitted to China by Matogya and

[26:59]

Kyukuhuran. This emperor held many discussions with the Taoists, often sitting in front of a table stacked with a large amount of Indian scriptures, and finally converted them by his superior arguments. Well, actually, there's another story, and that is that at that time there were Taoists and Buddhists, and they were always vying for the emperor's attention. So, the emperor set up two urns on either side of the courtyard with fire. And he put the Taoist scriptures in one and the Buddhist scriptures in the other to see who would come out unscathed. I don't know what happened. Except that they say that the Buddhists won. But maybe they were oral transmissions or something. I don't know.

[28:00]

This is Buddhist mythology. So, there's a lot of that. So later on, in the reign of Bhutei, during the Futsu era, the first Chinese patriarch Bodhidharma came, alone, from India, to Koshio, in the southern part of China, 520. He was the 28th Dharma heir of Shakyamuni, and brought the right transmission of Buddha's law, he stayed at Shotsu Shorinji Monastery on Mount Susan in China. Later on, he transmitted the Dharma to the second Zen patriarch, Taizo Eka. The divine light of Buddha's teaching has been handed down continuously by each successive ancestor. Before Bodhidharma's time, the divine light of Buddha was not seen or heard in China. In other words, it means that they didn't hear about it. So no one was able to perceive his own divine light. Even though everyone inherently possesses it, no one can discover it only by using their own judgments.

[29:03]

Therefore, no one in China was able to clarify the form and original nature of divine light or experience its virtues until Bodhidharma. Well, so we say that Bodhidharma brought Zen to China. Before that, the Chinese, although Buddhism had been in China for hundreds of years, It was academic, mostly. Mostly academic. Bodhidharma brought the actual experience of Buddhism to China. This is our understanding. It was called Zen. The actual practice of Buddha. They did not understand that divine light is their very essence. They thought that the divine light is completely separate from themselves. Their mind was clouded by this false idea of separation and they could not perceive that everything is divine light.

[30:08]

So people who think they are separate from divine light simply believe that divine light is red. white, blue, or yellow, similar to the light from a fire or the reflected light of water or the sparkle of gems or jewels or the light of a dragon or like the sun in the moonlight. Do not study under people who teach only letters. Many teachers are like Chosa, who taught that divine light is like the light of a firefly, and do not emphasize that divine light should be studied through enlightenment. From the Han, Swede, Tang, and Sung dynasties to the present time, most people have thought like this. Even though you may study under a master with a famous name, you should not accept any distorted explanations. The divine light of Buddha fills the entire universe. Everything is Buddha. Everything is the patriarchs. This is the transmission from Buddha to Buddha. The Buddhas and patriarchs constitute divine light. Through the practice of enlightenment of divine light,

[31:12]

we can become a Buddha and do zazen as he did. Then we will be able to discover the actualization of enlightenment. There is a koan. Divine light illuminates the eastern world of 18,000 Buddhas. Here, east means the center of the universe. It's not a direction. That is ourselves. It does not mean direction as most people think. There is an East in this world, in other worlds, even an East in East. This is Dogen. 18,000 means that which in ourselves is beyond number. In other words, unlimited mind. It is not the 18,000 of mathematics and has nothing to do with numbers like 20,000 or 50,000. The world of Buddhas means the land of enlightenment. It is within ourselves. There is no light being that travels to the Eastern world. In other words, You know, the yin comes from Buddha's forehead and lightens up a thousand worlds and so forth.

[32:17]

This is Sutra. But, you know, he's pointing to ourself. This is where it is. If you comprehend the entire world is the East itself, the East itself is the entire world, you will have some idea how to understand the world. It is nothing but the divine light of Buddha. The ten quarters of the world are the same as the Buddha land of 18,000. Emperor Kenshu of the Tang Dynasty was the father of two future emperors, Bokushu and Senshu, and the grandfather of the future emperors Kenshu, Wunshu, and Bushu. Once, after he had finished building a pagoda to house the Buddha's relics, In his palace, he had a dedication service performed. During the evening ceremony, he suddenly saw a brilliant light shining in the hall. He was overjoyed at the vision, and early next morning, he told his high officials about it.

[33:21]

They all thought it was a sign of a prosperous reign and congratulated him. They said it occurred because of the emperor's virtue and noble spirit. However, there was one official, Yubunko of Khan, a disciple who studied the Buddhist way, who did not congratulate the emperor. The emperor asked him, All the officials except you gave me congratulations. What's the reason for this? Yubankusev replied, Once I read in the sutras that the light of Buddha was not red, blue, yellow, white, or any natural color. The light you saw was not the light of the Buddha. It was only the light of the dragon that protects you. Then the emperor asked him, Well, what is the light of the Buddha? Yubunko remained silent. Yubunko was a layperson who had the right-minded attitude for practice. We should study the Buddhist way. Following his example, we should study the Buddhist way.

[34:23]

If you did not study like this, your study will be in vain. Even though Emperor Butte explained the Hokkyo Hanya Sutra and was able to call down flowers from heaven, so to speak, he did not have a proper mind for study and his efforts were useless. Dogen, pretty critical sometimes. When ten sages and three wise people make Yubunko's understanding their own, the real nature of resolve, practice, and enlightenment manifests itself for the first time. However, Yubunko did not have a complete understanding of the sutras. He said that the divine light of Buddha was not blue, yellow, red, or white. What did he mean by that? It is not a natural light, of course, but what is it? Emperor Kenshu said, If he had been like a real Buddha and patriarch would have insisted that Yubunko answer his question. Divine light is found even in countless grasses. It is found everywhere. The harmonization of all the different functions of a plant, roots, stalk, branches, leaves, flowers, fruit, color, are expressed as divine light.

[35:27]

I remember, who was it? Maybe it was Uman who had a was talking to a poet. And the poet said, what a beautiful flower or something. And Newman said, people see this flower as if it's a dream. So not only this world, but also in the six worlds of celestial beings, human beings, hell demons, Animals and Asuras, this is the six worlds, we will not explain right now, can divine light be seen. These are the six worlds that we transmigrate through every day called heaven, fighting demons. Sometimes we're in the heavens, sometimes we're a fighting demon, sometimes we're like an animal, sometimes we're like a human being, sometimes we're in the hell realm.

[36:34]

Sometimes we're like an animal and so forth. All in one day. Practice and enlightenment... Okay. The changing of life and death is like the changing of divine light. The change from ordinary person to saint is like the changing of different colors of divine light. To become a Buddha or ancestor is like... Black and yellow, like the changing of black and yellow. Black and yellow means like oneness and differentiation. Practice and enlightenment are one form of divine light. Grasses, trees, and mud fence, skin, flesh, bones, marrow, are colors of divine light. Smoke, mist, water, stone, sky, flying birds, the way of enlightenment, all these are the

[37:35]

changing forms of divine light. To understand our divine light is to meet and experience the real Buddha. The entire world is ourselves. We ourselves are the entire world. We cannot escape from this fact. Even if there is a place to escape, it can only be enlightenment. Our body is in the form of the entire world. Indeed, the way of enlightenment and practice of Buddhism can only be grasped by the realization that our skin, flesh, bones, and marrow contain the entire world. Great Master Dajan Kyoshin of Mount Uman, which is Yenman of this koan, was the 39th patriarch from Buddha. He received the Buddhist way from Great Master Seppo Shingaku. Although he began to study Buddhism when already quite old, he studied... earnestly, and we can see that he was truly one of the great men of Buddhism. He was the one who transmitted the Mount Uman school of teaching and was a shining example of their doctrine. Such an ancestor has never been seen before or since.

[38:38]

One day at the Daimahal, he asked the monks, Divine light shines in all of you, but if you try to look for it, you cannot find it. Where is the divine light? No one answered. This is the koan. Then Uman said, in the monastery, in the Buddha hall, in the administration building, and in the main gates. That's more accurate. Uman did not mean that divine light will come in the future, or was it in the past, or can be produced by others. He meant that we ourselves possess divine light. Uman taught that the entire world is Uman. Uman did not explain divine light. Rather, each one's divine light explains itself. Divine light shines in everyone. The entire body of a person is divine light. Divine light means people. Divine light is both inside and outside of human beings. Divine light is people. People are people. Divine light is divine light and being is being. We can see now that divine light possesses everyone and everyone possesses divine light within themselves.

[39:44]

Everything about divine light is everything about ourselves. What did Uman mean by people and divine light? He asked, where is the divine light? This question surpasses any questions about divine light. He meant that people and divine light are inseparable. They form one body. The monks did not answer, but sometimes no answer is the correct answer. No answer is the eye and treasury of the true law and the serene mind of nirvana transmitted from the correct teaching of Buddha. Uman answered his own question. in the monastery, in the Buddha hall, in the administration building, and in the main gates. Why did he answer like this? What he meant by these was very different from what monks and laymen think about them. Did he mean himself, or the six Buddhas who preceded Shakyamuni, or the 28 Indian ancestors, or the six Chinese patriarchs, or all the Zen masters of all ages and countries? Whatever he meant is nothing other than divine light. His expression not only means people, but also divine light.

[40:49]

After Uman's explanation of divine light, many different teachings arose. No Buddha in the Buddha hall. No Buddha hall. No Buddha. There's Buddha in divine light. Buddha does not have divine light. Divine light surpasses Buddha. Buddha is divine light and so on. And then he goes on and on, but not too much, but I think you get the gist of what he's talking about. Do you have any questions? There's something. Yeah. Yeah. Ordinarily, I would just say, come in and ask questions as I'm talking, but since I was reading, that would have been an interruption. Hmm. In this circumstance, we're asking questions, right?

[41:59]

Worded exactly. Mm-hmm. Part of that is wanting to look good, ego. Mm-hmm. There's this other point I think about questioning myself. Yeah. That's an interesting point. because strictly speaking, when we hear a talk, we just listen. But what we do is we interpret the talk according to how we want to hear it, or our likes and dislikes and so forth. So when a talk is over and then you go out and people talk to each other or somebody says, you know, what I heard in your talk was blah, blah, blah. Not something I said at all.

[43:00]

Everybody has a different idea of what was said because of the way we interpret the thing in our mind. So sometimes if we hesitate too much, you think, I am going to ask a foolish question. But the foolish question is the best question. So don't hesitate. Ask the question that comes, the first thought, there's a saying, first thought, best thought. Oh, I got this, but maybe I should couch it like this. And then we distort our own response. Then it comes out to be something else. So just boom. This is my question. People say, oh, this is my stupid question. All questions are stupid. Don't worry about it. And no questions are stupid.

[44:04]

Don't worry about it. What was his name? Substantial. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a metaphor for something else. It's something that... you are. And what do you mean by that? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, but what do you mean when you say you are alive? We each have to find that out for ourselves. So when Yogi affirms this, What is his purpose? Well, he feels that he's the teacher and that this is what people come to him for.

[45:05]

This is his understanding. So he has to express his understanding. He's expressing his understanding. And he is expressing his understanding of Uman's koan. That's the reason for readiness, to express his understanding of Uman's koan. I've always, this is not a, it doesn't seem like a mystery to me. To me it just seems like, yeah. Well, it needs to be said. Because otherwise we're not aware.

[46:08]

It's not something that you can explain, but it's something, in other words, you can be it, but you can't see it. This is what Yunman says. If you try to see it, it disappears. But you can't be it because that's what you are. So if you peek, you lose it. Just experience it. Just enjoy it. I once, when I was doing this class, I was talking to this woman about the class because she couldn't come. I told her what the class was about. And she said, oh, I just enjoy it.

[47:09]

I mean, you know, what else? There are various samadhis. This is komyozo samai, samadhi. they're really the same, they're aspects of each other, the jijuyu zamai. Jijuyu zamai is, Dogen talks about that, is self-joyous or self-fulfilling samadhi. And it includes tajuyu samadhi, which is the samadhi of others. So because you have this fulfilling and joyful samadhi, you communicate it to others through your activity, through your presence, through your association, and through your practice. So this is called fulfilling yourself and helping others to fulfill themselves.

[48:21]

That's what Dogen's doing. He feels fulfilled, and he's helping others to look inside. Take the backward step that illuminates. You said that some people call up to you and they tell you what they heard. I didn't say that. So is that their own life? Well, that's their own interpretation. Well, you know, this is an interesting question because people say, well, what about, you know, war and all that? If divine light is everything, what about killing and war and all that, right? That's a good question.

[49:25]

really a good question. I can't exactly say, you know, that I understand it. But my understanding, given that, my understanding is that, yes, that's all Buddha. But there is light that is misguided, that is misused by people. And there's light that is used by people in a good way, and light that's misused by people in not such a good way, in a bad way, in a detrimental way, but it's still our aspects of it. Otherwise, there would just be two different sources. What maybe, as you were speaking, I was thinking about maybe misunderstanding, if you want to call it that, way toward understanding. Because in that period... Yes, misunderstanding is the path of understanding.

[50:33]

Because, you know, there's something called revolving, a revolution. Paravirti. Paravirti. Where are soiled or ego consciousness becomes transformed when it turns around. Otherwise there would be no redemption. So ego turns on the basis and becomes wisdom. The wisdom of equality. So that's a whole other study, which is great. I don't mind delving into that, but that takes a little more time. because it involves the eight levels of consciousness of which the ego is the culprit in suffering.

[51:34]

The creation of suffering is ego, consciousness, the seventh level, which perverts itself And the ego thinks it's the boss when it's not the boss. It just has a function. It's a messenger between the aliyah consciousness and the rest. But it says, I am the boss. And it goes around doing destructive things. So the light can be perverted. And it is all the time. And then on the level of transformations, it's always creating a problem. Ritual thinking?

[52:39]

I don't know what you mean by ritual thinking, exactly. Oh, you mean... Habit. Habitual thinking comes from the exercise of doing something over and over, whereas no hesitation comes from emptiness in the sense that I'm using it. it simply springs forth in relationship to its object. And it's not conditioned, whereas habitual energy is conditioned by doing something over and over again, and then we simply act out of habit.

[53:51]

No hesitation means without thinking, or, you know, just a thought and an action. The action and the thought. But there are various levels. I mean, you know, we're just talking about this particular instance, so. But, you know, you can think about kinds of things, yeah. Thank you. Light is not conditioned. It's not conditioned. Habits, yeah. Well, its transformations are conditioned, but light itself is not conditioned. It's like water, you know. This can be soda pop, or poison, or lemonade, or whatever you want, but it's still unconditioned. because you take all those elements away and it's still water.

[54:57]

Well, that's a whole other conversation. I think it's 4.30. I'd get off the hook. Mudogan is a heavy dose.

[55:47]

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