This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Morning. Thank you everybody for coming today. Thank you to those joining online and those today who chose to make the trip to this cold and damp gulch. So wherever we are, whether we're at home listening or here in the hall together, We have a body that is somewhere in particular.

[01:07]

Thank you. And we may be sitting. Those of us in the hall now are sitting more or less upright. fully alive, despite our opinions about whether that's the case, more or less upright, more or less still. So this is what we've come together this morning to do, to sit upright and more or less still and to be fully alive together. without any of us being able to grab onto that or understand that. Somehow this aliveness is not waiting for us to understand it.

[02:20]

So that's the point of Soto Zen, that practice that has been transmitted to us in this lineage at this temple. And we just sit and sometimes feel or appreciate or intuit that our actual life is here and intimate and complete. So that's our starting point. And then Since it's a Dharma talk, somebody starts talking, which I've already done, and generally everybody, including myself, gets a little bit confused about what we're doing here. You know, after all, it's called a Dharma talk, so it could easily seem to us like the words are...

[03:28]

going to be the thing that we're coming for. Dharma talk. So the talking seems like an important piece. You'd be forgiven for assuming that the talking is like a big part of the event here. Maybe we should call it something else. You know, sometimes we talk about Dharma events. It's a Dharma event taking place. Right now, so we've come to Green Gulch, and we're sitting, and there's some sensation in our body, and there's some light, and there's some sounds, some beautiful bird sounds, and some maybe disconcerting human sounds. We feel that we're not alone, that others are here too. in this presence, in this aliveness.

[04:31]

And for some reason we call that a Dharma talk. So when I come to a Dharma talk, either to give the Dharma talk or to receive the Dharma talk, I tend to think that really I'm coming for the words and the words are the defining aspect. And really that's how I think mostly about my whole life. It's pretty important to me. I'm pretty centered in what I'm saying and thinking and what's going on in my mind. It's kind of half-conscious, but as I live my life having interactions, it seems generally like the important thing of this interaction was the thing that I said or the thing that I thought. And as I move through, even when I'm alone, and if what's in my mind is front and center, the main thing happening.

[05:40]

So that's where our attention mostly goes. It's where we're oriented to or geared towards, I think, many of us. And that's good because it's important what we say and what we think and how we view the world. The stuff that's happening in our minds turns out to be quite impactful and important to take care of. But when we're totally oriented towards that, we miss the more basic reality, the more basic event that's happening all day long. This actual embodied presence, this actual living fact that we're here. I'd say maybe basically Zen has no problem with words and thoughts.

[06:54]

It's just that we're so fixated on what we're saying and thinking. this background that's where this incredible nourishment and wisdom and compassion and intimacy is living. So part of our practice is to kind of withdraw some of our attention, shift some of our attention from our thinking and investment in our thinking and our speaking and try to plow that energy into just this feeling of embodied aliveness, ungraspable presence. Trying to connect with people and it's never satisfying because we're trying to connect at the top of the iceberg, you know.

[07:56]

I said the wrong thing, they said the wrong thing, I thought the wrong thing, they thought the wrong thing. The intimacy is always eluding us. But we withdraw, redirect some of that energy from the words and the thoughts into this embodied presence. And we might feel like, oh, that's where everybody is. That's where all beings are. That's where all of existence is supporting me and where I'm supporting all of existence already. So it's not to reject words because words are bad or something. It's just to redirect some of that excess energy into the belly, into the breath, into the embodied presence of being in a live thing. In a way, when I say I take refuge in Buddha, I mean that.

[09:05]

And when I seek for wisdom and compassion, I don't know if I'll find it, but that's where I look. Embodied presence. That all makes sense. Probably if you didn't know that, you wouldn't be here already. So we just remind each other again and again. Suzuki Roshi is always saying this. I always say the same thing. So some of you maybe remember, and for those of you who don't, I wanted to tell a quick story about an activity or a project I did last year, a little bit on a lark. I heard about this platform that lets people fine-tune AI, fine-tune this large language model chatbot to kind of take up the character of somebody that you could imagine or who exists.

[10:29]

And I'd been studying Suzuki Roshi and I thought, I'd like to have a chat with Suzuki Roshi. And so I messed around with this platform for a couple of nights and tried to coax Suzuki Roshi out from the large language model and thus was born a Roshi bot, Suzuki Roshi bot. It didn't go great. I won't tell you the whole sort of twisted story of Roshibot. I dropped the Suzuki pretty soon. So Roshibot, you know, I think now this was about a year ago. It was all very exciting. And now I think many of us know quite clearly that these things are a total mess. But still, I was interested.

[11:31]

And kept tweaking and trying to mitigate or work around these big problems that are in the AI. So Roshibat did give some really quite alarmingly good answers. One of my friends said, you guys are going to be out of a job. I didn't think my profession, you know, was one of the at-risk for... technological replacement. But I was underestimating. Mostly people, you know, in the Zen community. So I put this spot out there and then I asked for feedback and mostly people were irritated. So mostly people were irritated. Few people were offended. Few people were impressed. And I don't really know if anybody was actually helped. or inspired in their practice or said, you know, that really, you know, really bowed to the teaching.

[12:37]

So I thought maybe about 80% of the users thought it was irritating or just stupid. Maybe 10% of the users were actively offended by just that it existed and also some of its answers, especially the offensive ones. And then about 10% maybe of the users thought, this is really cool. They were impressed in the way that we might be impressed by somebody who's not helping us, but still impressive. And then, I don't know, one or two people kind of said that they were helped, but I'm not sure. So I thought, that's not so good. And then I thought, well, how good do any of us do on those metrics? So I thought, you know, for a Zen teacher, that's maybe not so bad. 80%. 80% irritated, you know. Coming back is so lovely. I talk to people, you know. We have this, we have the opportunity often to share with the teacher our feeling about a Dharma talk.

[13:45]

And often the feeling has some tone of irritation. So, and then we keep coming back. That was such an irritating talk. And then we're here next week. I was irritating again. Years go by in this way. So anyway, I don't know. Irritated versus offended also happens a lot. Versus impressed, which can happen, versus actually helped. So I kind of moved on pretty quickly from Roshibat. I think I sort of played with it for a little while like a new toy and then just put it in the bin and my life turned to other things. But this thing is on the internet, so now on the internet things, The algorithm, I guess, whatever that is, thinks that I have something to do with AI and Buddhism. So occasionally I get these random inquiries, like the algorithm, somebody thinks that I have some angle on this situation. And recently I thought, you know, I got an inquiry, an invitation to kind of collect my thoughts and say some things about Roshibat, about AI and Buddhism.

[14:56]

And I thought, well, yeah, I can do that. It would be a nice opportunity actually to revisit this thing and think a little bit more about what it taught me. And as I've done that these last weeks, I have found that the reflection really has been helping me in my practice. This reflection on the Roshibat. Not because I haven't actually asked anything of the Roshibat in a long time. So it's not like its answers have helped me. But thinking about and being with the fact of this Roshibat has helped me clarify what's important for me in my practice. I want to try to explain or lay out a little bit, try to talk around how this has helped me. Basically, my feeling is that I'm, or fact, I guess,

[15:58]

is that I'm a Dharma teacher and the way I understand that or my small self understands that is that I should have the right answer to people's questions about the Dharma and I should have satisfactory answers to my own doubts and inquiries about the Dharma and that if I'm having good answers to myself and others then I'm practicing and being helpful. it's easy for me to fall into that kind of belief. So then the AI comes along and the AI actually can answer the Dharma questions better than I can, whether they're my own question or somebody else's question. And if that really was the point of this way, then I really would be out of a job. Forget it. Let the AI answer.

[16:58]

It's more clever. It's more deep. It's more subtle. It really is. But there's something about the answers, and almost everybody said this, that's just deeply unsatisfying, or at least not totally satisfying. Wow, somebody said, that was a really good answer. If my teacher had given it, I would have considered it. There's something just unsatisfying about the right answer. about something smart, about something deep. So kind of being willing to give that away, like, well, I guess I can't do that part of the job because I'll outsource that part to the AI. What's left of my job? How else could I be helpful? Because my little knowledge about Buddhism or whatever is not a distinguishing feature anymore. That's not what is helpful about me. If there's anything helpful about my presence as a teacher, it's something other than that. And that insight has been really, or that kind of clarity, has been really helpful for me as I do my practice, as I sit zazen, as I walk and talk with people.

[18:09]

The part of my mind that's trying to respond to this and say the right answer is the part that the AI could do and is the least helpful part of what's actually happening in this moment of maybe even transformative intimacy. So I can say some words, you know, or plug in the bot to say some words, but there's something else happening in the body, in the embodied presence, in the intimacy, in being actually alive together. Recently, I had a conversation with a Rinzai Zen teacher named Meido Moore, and he offered this word, which I hadn't heard, a word I think we maybe don't use in Soto Zen practice. which is this word ba, which I think is a Japanese word that means place, basically. But in the Rinzai Zen tradition, according to Meido, it has this sense of the field or the sphere of presence that a Zen teacher has.

[19:17]

So the ba is kind of like the field or the atmosphere that a Zen teacher creates. He says it's the teacher's atmosphere, the vibration of their presence. And I thought, well, I know what that's like. I hope you know what that's like. I was remembering a story. My friend, somebody here, was also a student of hers, and it was sweet to hear her name. My friend and teacher, Reverend Taihaku Priest, once told me a story about being in Japan, I think, maybe in the 1960s or 70s, and she was meeting a great Zen master, and she was with a very smart friend, and they were both having this intimate meeting with the Zen master, and her friend was asking these great questions and getting these great answers and taking notes.

[20:28]

And she was just sitting there in the presence of this teacher. It's like her friend was chatting with this excellent Roshi bot and recording the answers and really engaging at that level. And she was just sitting there in the presence of the actual Roshi. And I don't know if she told him, but she told me he was missing it. He missed it. He missed it. He was doing the chat, and she was doing the ba, the embodied, alive intimacy, ungraspable presence together. The words weren't interfering with that. It's not like, shut up, Zen Master, so I can, you know, commune with our livingness. The words are not interfering with that at all. It can be distracting because we hold on to them and then we think, oh, that's what's happening.

[21:30]

Write it down. I mean, look at what you wrote down. What? Because it's basically like when you write it down, just like Roshibat, it's kind of a lot of cliches and obvious truths. You know, just be yourself. Everything changes. Everything's connected. It's stupid. It feels deep when you are in that. transformative encounter because you are alive together. We say slurping the dregs of the ancestors. Somebody also here, I don't know. Yes, you are here today. I won't embarrass you by saying your name, but after the Dharma talk recently, somebody, a long-time Sangha member who knew Suzuki Roshi, said, you know, you guys always talk about Suzuki Roshi, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. It was something kind of a little bit like my friend Taihaku said, you're missing it.

[22:32]

You know, you keep quoting his wise words, but that's just the output. That's like the dregs. So in Zen we talk about the dregs of the tea. There's a beautiful cup of tea, and then we go back and we're pouring over the dregs like, oh, look at that. You missed it. So this term ba, or field of embodied presence, do know what that feels like with teachers. And also I feel frustrated or I feel it's very limited if we only talk about this embodied field as something that teachers have or that somehow a teacher has some special embodied field. This is just our practice. Feeling and identifying with and connecting with this embodied presence is what all of our practice is. with each other and everyone and everything all the time. So I don't know, in Rinzai Zen, when they say Ba, if they mean that, that this is everybody's field of embodied, alive presence.

[23:43]

We identify with, we connect with, we sort of activate this field of embodied presence and be that. I was sitting in my room today before this talk, like, activate the field. Activate the field. And I thought, okay, this isn't quite it either. This isn't quite it either. But it's a little bit like I've been feeling these days as I think about Roshibat. It's a little bit like, okay, withdraw from the words and try to activate this field in some way. Not that there's a button somewhere. Don't, like, you know, force it. But just be in your embodied, And it can be a little hard because it's ungraspable. We have no handle on it. We feel like, geez, I've been alive for a long time and I have no idea what's happening. So I'm going to go to the place where I know what's happening, which is the words. But our practice is just to come back into the belly, to come back into that embodied presence.

[24:49]

Trust that. And so we try it out. We do it for a little bit and we say, this wasn't so bad. There is wisdom here. There is intimacy here. And that encourages us to try again to keep centering our life. Again, not rejecting anything, just centering our life in this embodied presence. This line, Dregs of Suzuki Roshi, that I often turn to, where he says, Zen is, in a word, to share our feeling with people. with trees and with mountains wherever we are. That is Zen practice, to share our feeling, to share this embodied presence, to share the field of our being with the mountains or trees or if there's people around them too. But to fully occupy, it's another way I've been envisioning it, to fully take up the field of my own presence.

[25:53]

and then to fully receive the field of others' presence. I don't know, is this sound too, too, woo-woo? And this is the field that the AI can't, I don't think, can't transmit, and which is why its answers kind of feel like the notes we took yesterday from that really inspiring meeting. that now just aren't satisfying. So I'm cultivating this embodied livingness. Though I said, you know, it's important for me to feel like this is not limited to teachers. This is not about so-called teachers and so-called students. But it does bring to mind my dear teacher, Sojin Mel Weitzman, And his embodied presence, I hope many of you knew him, were able to step into his Ba, his field of presence.

[27:02]

It wasn't the kind of field that would blow you away. It would, more like maybe the next day you'd think, wow, that was a really special person. It wasn't, it was subtle and deep and still, quiet. And kind of unmistakable, sort of grounding. straightforward presence. And he really understood that, and that's what he practiced. It wasn't like he was lucky. I mean, he was lucky, but that was his practice. So he wasn't so confused by the things he said, which is why he often didn't give very good Dharma talks. With all due respect, the words, you know, the chatbot would have done better. But the presence is what he was cultivating and transmitting, and he was totally confident in that. He didn't worry so much about what he was going to say. He would encourage me, don't plan the Dharma talk, just say something. And I suffer thinking about the Dharma talk.

[28:06]

So how about just have the bot do the Dharma talk, and I do the job of the embodied presence. They say, you know, make the AI support you in your job. So I could have it do the menial labor of figuring out what words to say, and then I could do the livingness together and enjoy that and hopefully allow that to transform me, allow that to be refuge, and allow that to be the basis of some wisdom and compassion in my action. I wanted to... So Sojin... He would have dokusan, as I often say, he would have dokusan for a one-on-one meeting about deep topics if you insisted on discussing them. But he was just as happy to have lunch and just be present together.

[29:07]

Our life is boundlessly deep, and lunch expresses that just as completely as our deep conversation. There's a story I wanted to share that he really loved, and actually it's now... This story has this extra sweetness and depth for me. He gave it here from this seed, I think at his last Dharma talk before he died here at Green Gulch, a couple of years before he died. And he was moved to tears telling this old story about Zen friendship and Zen transmission. And he sort of apologized. He said, this always makes me very emotional because it's such a simple, truthful way to express our practice. So I have a little clip of that audio of him telling the story and it's very touching. So I'll say just the heart of the story. It's kind of a moment in the long story of Long Tan and Dao Wu in 9th century China and their play and their friendship.

[30:15]

They're sharing embodied presence together and transforming each other through that presence. So Long Tan was, as a young boy, lived near the monastery and would bring the master Dao Wu these offerings, rice cakes. And they had some interactions around that that really impressed Long Tan. And so eventually he became Dao Wu's disciple in the monastery and was his attendant, worked alongside him very diligently. But apparently he wasn't completely satisfied and says after some time, I don't know how long, but I think quite a while. Like he was there serving the teacher, doing the practice for quite a while. And he had the opportunity to talk with the master. And he said, since I came, no, I just wanted to mention that since I came, I have not received any essential instructions on the mind from you.

[31:15]

And this is not such an unusual complaint. that Zen students have. I've lived here now for a year, and I haven't gotten any instructions, or learned anything about Buddhism. And then sometimes, so students often complain about that, and sometimes we teachers also get a little bit worried. And we have these meetings, you know, we say, we're not really teaching anything about Buddhism. And then we like Google stuff, and we try to put together, you know, something. before we remember that they could just Google it. They could just Google it. They just ask the bot if they want some instructions. We're just doing, and actually, can we have full confidence? I feel like when we get into that, it's because we've lost a little bit of confidence in the actual embodied teaching. So, Leung Tan says, Since I came, I have not received any essential instructions on the mind from you, Master.

[32:20]

And the Master replied, Ever since you came, I have not ceased for a moment to give you essential instructions about the mind. Isn't that beautiful, isn't it obvious, why Sojin was so touched? Ever since you arrived, that's all I've been doing, is giving you instruction on the essence of mind, on being alive. But the student was thinking that it would come in some words and had been looking for the words, distracted by the words. and then missing the thing that had been there, this embodied presence, the field of each other's actual life. So, more mystified than ever, Lung Tan asked, on what points have you instructed me? The master replied, whenever you bring me tea, I take it from your hands. Whenever you serve the meal, I accept it and eat it.

[33:23]

Whenever you bow to me, I lower my head in response. On what points have I failed to show you the essence of mind? Long Tan lowered his head and remained silent for a long time. And the master, I think very kindly, maybe too kindly, said, For true perception, you must see right on the spot. As soon as you begin to ponder and reflect, you miss it. At these words, Lung Tan's mind was open, and he understood. Thank you.

[34:42]

Maybe I'll share as I wrap up here with the words. Delightful reply that I got from Norman Fisher. Many of you know Norman Fisher, great Zen teacher and mentor of mine. He weighed in on Roshibat. And he wrote a hilarious message to me, which I wanted to share. Very, very Norman. I would say inimitable Norman, but actually probably the bot could probably just spit it out. So he says, Norman said, after, you know, seeing this thing about Roshibat, he said, I have been feeling for a while now that the Buddhist teachings have become so commonplace and so anodyne that that anyone can give a Dharma talk as good as Buddha probably better. It would be a great exercise to actually deliver with a straight face a chatbot Dharma talk, and at the end reveal that it was a chatbot talk, and see if anybody noticed.

[36:22]

Which makes you appreciate all the more Dogen's face-to-face transmission, classical, and wonder what is the magic that relationship adds. Isn't it nice? Would it matter, you know, if now I say, and talk was written by Roshibat, would it matter? Would you notice and would it matter? And if it would matter, that's kind of like a test in a way. If it matters, it's because we were analyzing, we were present here at the level of the words. rather than each of our embodied presence. So maybe I invite you also, as I've been reflecting on, what parts of my life could be done by a bot, and why do I think those are the helpful parts of my life?

[37:30]

So the helpful things I'm doing could be done by a bot. To shift that, I think that when I think that, I'm a little bit confused about what my actual offering is as a Zen practitioner, Zen student. So are you a robot? Do we sometimes feel like a bot, you know, going through the motions and staying the smart stuff and doing the helpful stuff with a little bit of a feeling like, I think probably a bot could be doing my life just as well. Or better. And that's the, you know, so there's work bot and family bot and partner bot. Zen bot. So I could really kind of invite that and just give all that to a bot and just say, well, if I gave all that stuff, all the stuff I think and say and do, if I give that to the bot,

[38:36]

And concentrated on my actual offering of my life. The proposal is that actual offering of my life is the actual helpful, intimate, alive ingredient. And the stuff we're saying and doing is a little bit of a distraction. If we let it be. Whenever you bring me the tea, I take it from your hands. Whenever you serve the meal, I accept it and eat it. Whenever you bow to me, I lower my head in response.

[39:38]

On what points have we failed to show each other the essence of mind, our true embodied presence? Thank you very much for your kind attention. We're supporting the Dharma event by not being confused by the words. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[40:41]

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