This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. My name is Michael Wenger. At least today it is. We'll see about that. 40 years ago, July 4th, or July 2nd, I came to San Francisco to study at the San Francisco Zen Center. And I knew I might stay, and I did. I didn't know I was gonna stay for 40 years. Beware. In fact, any of you who knew me then would have been surprised that I'd been here for so long.

[01:09]

I'm a shaky dragon tonight. Been packing and moving. So 40 years ago, when I came here, I decided to stay because of the freshness of people's minds. Religion is a very tricky thing. It can get one stale and dogmatic. But I didn't feel that here. When I was coming, a lot of people were leaving Zen Center. Because Suzuki Roshi had just died. And the new teacher wasn't as good as Suzuki Roshi. True enough. I think I'm going to stand up.

[02:32]

Buddhist name is Zen Still Deep, great dragon. I always thought it was the Loch Ness Monster. Ha! But now I'm just a shaky little dragon. There are so many people here who are here tonight and who are not here tonight who I have to be grateful for that I met at Zen Center and grew and learned from. What's important is not the institution, but the friends you make in the institution.

[04:11]

In the institution, you've got to take care of it. 40 years, how could that be? I don't know. Usually when people come at first, you're afraid they're going to leave too soon. But then... And probably I think I just stayed a little bit too long, three or four years, where I felt like it was stagnant bit so I'm taking a great leap and trying something different that wasn't such a great leap So I would like to encourage all of you to continue your practice wherever it is, whether at Zen Center or outside of Zen Center, and to keep it fresh and not dogmatic.

[05:40]

There are guidelines, there aren't rules. Yes. Can you say a little bit about, it seems like especially over the last decade, your practice has blossomed out into a variety of interests that have expressed something that 30, 40 years of sasen brought by you. Well, you know, since I've been writing this newsletter for about a year and a half, once a month, I noticed that what I like to write about is cultural things, how Buddhism is expressed in culture.

[07:03]

how our understanding is expressed in culture. So that's partially where it's coming from. But then again, I was always painting. But maybe it's gotten a little different. I used to think I was painting about something. No, I'm just painting. You've grown too, in many ways. How would you characterize it? It's funny, isn't it? They're all funny. And we should not keep a sense of humor about ourselves. We should not keep our stuff. We should keep a sense of humor about ourselves. Because life is tough enough without a sense of humor.

[08:05]

If you take yourself too seriously, you might shake all of that. More questions? Yes? Michael, you've been here for 40 years. 40 years, that's a lot. I mean, I want to ask, which did you learn? Even more so, who came in here? Who was it that was seeking? And who's leaving now? Everybody came in and everybody goes out. There was a question before that? Tell me more about that. You come and go a lot. Can I set a good example for you? Thank you very much. Yes?

[09:08]

What are you most looking forward to in your leap? I'm not looking forward. I'm not looking back. I notice the air is fresh in the place. The ocean breeze comes through there. I'm enjoying that. Michael, would you tell us a little bit about the place? No, I want you to discover it. OK. It's at 20th and Quintana. It's got a big, beautiful zendo, a great studio for painting. I want to emphasize creativity and compassion. Let me tell you a secret.

[10:10]

One of the secret weapons is discipline. I'm not going to emphasize discipline. I expect you to come with discipline. I'm not going to teach it to you. What are you going to teach in Germany? 6 o'clock. What time is 6,000 in Germany? 8 o'clock? I think I would ask people to find out what they need. You have to ask them that? About the time. Good idea. So you should visit him in Berlin when he makes his big leap coming up soon.

[11:12]

Yes? Michael, seeing that exchange with Berndt and having Marsha in front of me reminds me of As little as possible. Well, the distinction is important, but it's overly known. I don't like to say too much about it. I think we all have distinctions, and they're important to make, but don't take them too seriously. Teacher, non-teacher. Color robe, non-color robe. They're important distinctions, but don't make them too important.

[12:22]

What is important? What's it? What is important? What is important? What's important? Why do you come here? Creative awareness and compassion. That's important. the newsletter. How can we access this newsletter? If the office could take it down, give me your email site and I'll send it to you. What if other people here want to get? Talk to Marcia. This is Marcia. Michael?

[13:35]

Yes? Are we going to have movie nights? Yes, we're going to have movie nights. What will we see? I think the first thing I'm going to show is... It's a samurai film, except it's... No, it's a new samurai film, which isn't so violent. It's about the sensibility, not about the fighting. I recommended it in one of my newsletters. Did anybody read it? They didn't remember it either. Anyhow, I will recommend anything you You recommend. Would you turn off the sound?

[14:40]

Yes. Do you have any advice on how to cultivate creativity and compassion? I've got a lot of advice, but Cherish it. Appreciated in others and in yourself. My posture is terrible here. I was actually pretty enthusiastic about moving about a year ago when I came up with the idea.

[16:17]

But then it was taking so long and I became discouraged. And I must say some of my friends here were worried about me. But then a friend from the outside of Zen Center sent me this poem called The Dragon. in an unquenchable fire, the center of all energy. This stout, heroic heart, I am truth and light. Someone had to write this, not me. I hold peace and glory in my sway. My presence disperses dark clouds. I have been chosen to tame the fates.

[17:22]

I am the dragon. I don't know if it's true, but I like it. I don't know if I will succeed, but I will never know if I don't try. Are you going to know if you succeed or not? If I knew, I wouldn't have to do it. I'm just asking, because you talked about succeeding. What is that? What is succeeding? Okay, succeeding. Just asking. No, not seeding. Succeeding. Succeeding, I feel like any... Fireside check. Succeeding means turning to rest and connecting with whoever comes.

[18:27]

Succeeding is opening my heart and watching other people open their hearts. Succeeding is not judging. Succeeding is that letting succeed one thing after another. Succeeding is even in failure to see, wow, I learned something. You know, probably the most dramatic thing in my life, which Paul did mention, was my disease. But I've learned a lot from it. And I continue to learn from it. as much as they hate it. But what else do I have? Whatever comes your way, you cut it. And you're succeeding and you're dealing with it too.

[19:34]

Very good. Maybe there'll be a leap from YouTube someday. 40 years of experience. I'm really appreciating their teachings and I love them. Stay close to what you love. who have supported me to go, both monetarily and in many other ways.

[20:44]

I was at Margaret and Bob's in St. Louis Obispo, and I was giving a talk, and I happened to mention what I was doing, and this 65-year-old man said, that's the most encouraging thing you said, that maybe I can do something different too, that your life isn't over. You don't have to do anything different for your life not to be over, but it ain't over till it's over. And Blanche this morning said that she would miss me sitting next to her, but I want to assure you that I'll always sit next to you. I don't know if you noticed that I said, they say you're taking the punch on you.

[21:53]

You're the most encouraging puncher I know. Thank you. too punishing. Maybe I should leave now. Yes. Where does the courage come from? You. from each one of you. Don't give yourself, don't sell yourself short. And if you fail, sometimes it's succeeding. Yes?

[23:02]

What inspired you to do your book? That's an old book, actually. I wrote 33 Fingers. years ago, and I added 16 fingers for the new edition of 49 fingers. Can you talk about that? Were you doing a book? Well, I wanted American koans. And I thought of all the koans that happened in America that influenced me. And in the second book, it was actually painting as much as anything else that I wanted to get in more. What did you like about it? I hadn't read the whole book, but Tom Eagle gave me copies. He worked on it a lot. Yes. He's a great editor and producer.

[24:07]

Yes? I don't think I like this very much, but... I haven't learned it yet. [...] What if I learned it? I haven't learned it yet. No. You're learning it wrong. Well, the way I am is what I've learned. Yes. You said you learned a lot from your Parkinson's, from your disease. Yes. What's the core thing you've learned? Things ain't the way you want them to be. That's okay.

[25:10]

You deal with the depression. What made you know that you were stagnating? I felt it. And also, it's for so many years I felt engaged and growing. And then all of a sudden I didn't feel that way. So instead of waiting for somebody else to solve the problem, which I waited for a long time ago, What did you learn from failure? I don't know if I failed. But I think I know what you mean. Well, it's learning about each thing, because each thing has failure and success in it.

[26:19]

Have you noticed that people's strengths are also their weaknesses? You should learn all about that. Yes. Thank you, Michael, for this night and everything. You came to Richmond, Virginia some years ago, which is where I met you first. And I just was wondering, why on earth you came to Richmond, Virginia. I mean, what was the impetus to come to Richmond, Virginia? He was there. Yeah. And many people like him. Yeah. Was it because Joe Show thought it would be a good idea?

[27:25]

Pat Phelan invited me. Pat and I and Paul were in the real rough and ready days here. We were in Dodge. that's being keeping an open heart and not judging. I was wondering if you had any insight or recommendation to share on those with us that are trying to find a way to get that success on us. When you judge, just stay on judging. It's not any help to say you shouldn't judge. So that's a judgment. to nourish your judgments and to take them a little softer.

[28:31]

Okay? Okay. Well, maybe that's enough advice. Is there any other burning questions? Yes. Turning on burning questions. I don't know how long it's going to take us to get to... but we'll have a party for people at Zen Center, and we'll have an opening. Hawitsu was already coming. He did a calligraphy which said, coming down from the mountain, he becomes not sharing pictures.

[29:38]

So we'll see. Thank you all. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[30:08]

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