This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. I mentioned before briefly a phrase that That's actually the place I know it from is the Anapanasati Sutta, where in the development of consciousness, concentration, and open awareness, it talks about gladdening the heart. And I think springtime at Tassajara gladdens the heart. But you need to watch out in the austerities of winter.

[01:07]

It's like survival keeps you motivated. And then it gets a little warmer, the nights are a little warmer, and the days are delightful, and the birds, the insects, the flowers, and the mind can... float away on the spring breeze. And at this point in practice period, we've connected to the schedule to a point where it's just what we do. It's just everyday living. some ways a beautiful fortunate set of circumstances and then in some ways tempting us to just float into whatever we float into the dream of the summer or somewhere else or something so just to say that to watch you know that certainly in the process of working with

[02:29]

our karmic existence in the process of holding tenderly the vulnerabilities and difficulties of a human life and letting something find its own way of integrating, of healing, of letting go of its ingrained response to affliction, whatever kind of contraction or agitation or aggression that might be. or fantasy. So letting the benign circumstances help with that to fall away and at the same time maintaining a resolve, a dedication. So that's your pep talk for the morning. So momentary concentration, One-pointed concentration, continuous concentration.

[03:33]

Okay? Let's not forget them. You know, as we start to talk about Zen koans and the subtle nuances of the Dharma, it's important to think that we're always practicing the basics. That never changes. Every time you sit down to do zazen, you're a complete beginner. You're starting with what's happening now. And the request is asking everything you've got. It's not saying, oh yeah, sure, just hang out in your own thinking and feeling and ramble around a little. The bell will ring pretty soon. Something very exacting. So I was quoting the first two koans, moo and don't know.

[04:38]

In a way we could say moo is radically drop off everything. Whatever arises, moo. Empty. Let it go. Nothing. And then don't know. Don't make up stories. Don't spend your time judging, assessing yourself, others, anything. And how radically can you do that? As we said, as we discovered, even if you sit down without knowing, something comes alive about sitting down. If you look out the window without knowing, something comes alive. So in a way, these are quite similar and a little different. And then in the Rinzai system, the initiation, the barrier that's often set up is...

[05:52]

experience dropping off everything. Kensho. And in a way it's talking about one-pointed concentration. This way of attention is singularly devoted to not grasping. And then that has its own passage and its own intensity. When there's radical non-grasping, it's like there is the accumulated tension that's usually dissipated by going back into the world according to me. You can think of our consciousness, our consciousness is that we We return to the world according to me, and even when it's painful, it offers us some kind of reassurance.

[07:04]

And then when you don't do that, there's like a psychological tension. And then when that's kept, the tension grows, and then at a certain point it breaks open. And so in Renzai practice, Kensho is dramatic. Something bursts free. And then we could say the don't know speaks more of unconstructedness and stillness. Stay present and don't make up stories. And when stories are being made up, let them fall away. There is a continual invitation for ease and spaciousness. And so that ease and spaciousness permeates more fully, more in the flavor of continuous contact.

[08:20]

Whatever happens is already happening. Just be aware. Don't grasp it. Don't push it away. And then in another way, they bring about a similar kind of dropping off. I remember a Rinzai teacher saying to me once, talking about Kencho, he said, well, You sort of got it. But you're not very jazzed up. And I shrugged and said, I'm a soda kind of guy, you know. You just drop it off. If you don't make a problem, there isn't a problem.

[09:27]

of that, and how even momentary consciousness, momentary presence, momentary contact can carry that flavor. It can carry contact that's just interrupting this stream of karmic consciousness. You're inside some narrative of the world according to me and then you just interrupt it. What's happening now? Just pause, exhale, don't know, let it appear. Oh, look at this. And then how thoroughly is it dropped? Is it dropped so thoroughly that the very tension in your body releases?

[10:36]

The very mental disposition that was holding that narrative in place drops away? Or was it just put on pause? When you release the pause, it starts right back up. But even that keeps us close. It keeps reminding us that, oh yeah, the request of practice is always present, that awareness is always just this. And then, to harken back a little bit, we have the hindrances and the factors of awakening.

[11:43]

So when the environment becomes pleasant, when the internal environment becomes pleasant, We let something open. We let the equanimity, the sukha and the piti, the rising energy, we let them be so. And if some affliction arises, well then we just say yes to that too. So this we always keep close. Doesn't change. Doesn't change whether it's dark and cold or bright and sunny. Master Ma was ill and his attendant said, how is it to be ill?

[13:03]

Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. When it's dark and cold, it's dark and cold. When it's bright and sunny, it's bright and sunny. They're both Buddha. They're both what it is to be conscious, to be alive. Whatever comes to mind, the response is yes. And as we reach this point in the practice period you know there's the capacity to be just that is closer but it has its own flavor of ordinariness we've stayed close to it for so long that

[14:08]

It doesn't feel some like extraordinary event. Now it feels more like, yeah, look at this. But to watch your mind when it opens up with appreciation or gratitude. Often, if you watch, that just happens quite naturally. And then also to watch it Because right in that openness, the regression, the regressed emotions, feelings can pop up too. And then holding them, teaching us something about, to use a more Western term, the activity of our subconscious. When you pay close attention, you see in an amazing way these two are not so far apart.

[15:20]

The afflicted and the mind that's opened with ease and gratitude. They can mingle quite easily. Okay, and then one other detail. So last time we were talking about using, serving, which constructed existence with its own requests, its own rules, and then the imperative that creates. And then within that imperative, within the request of that construct, within the request of how we decided to serve, there's success and failure. There's doing it right and doing it wrong.

[16:23]

And then there is big mind, seeing that it's just a construct, that the notion of success and failure are just constructs. And this is an important attribute in the Zen way, that we hold steadfastly and diligently to the construct of practice that we've brought together and we don't get hung up on it. It's like we dedicatedly commit And then it turns out the way it turns out. And you can watch yourself lean the other way. Get too uptight about it or get too sloppy about it. Both miss the point.

[17:27]

But then how that CM notion applies to anything and everything we conjure up. everything we conceptualize. As the Heart Sritra says, even the notion of practice, the notion of attainment, the notion of someone attaining, the notion of birth and death. And then this theme, constantly asking us to come back to equanimity wherever our practice is taking us or whatever is arising and then the admonition you know of Yakujo's mysterious story about the fox well you've got it

[18:40]

If you've got this notion of form and emptiness, of constructed and beyond constructed, do you have to bother with the construct? In the teaching, you do not ignore the construct. Conventional reality is how we live. That's the world we are part of. Okay, so that's the review. Any of that sound familiar at all? Sorry. You're talking about activity and interruption. evaporate.

[19:56]

But what I was saying was, depending upon the thoroughness of the interruption, sometimes it's a little bit like we're holding our breath and then we exhale and then we resume. Because to remember... living inside the karmic constructs psychologically is an attractive proposition. And that when we deny it, that can create its own kind of tension. So there is an impulse to resume. And this for us is a, you know, the process of practice is literally to discover that beyond the world according to me there is something else and actually it's extraordinary.

[21:07]

So do we interrupt it and then what was the alternative you offered? integrated, was it? It seemed like, well, I was confused whether you're saying it kind of disappeared altogether or that it's a kind of new relationship with these concepts. And again, It depends upon the thoroughness with which it's being released. It's like if there's a thorough going, don't know, then it arises in the context of beginner's mind. If it's not so thorough, it arises as

[22:20]

resuming the familiar. Often we can see that quite clearly. When we have a don't know moment, when we have a moment where this arises with freshness, it has an energy, it has a vitality, it has a clarity. It can be something we've seen a hundred times, but when there's beginner's mind, this is the first time we've ever seen it. So it's palpable. So it depends upon the mind that meets it. Okay? So one of the koans — well, maybe I'll mention another one first. I think it's a little bit easier to grasp. Yon-men says, every day is a good day.

[23:27]

He addresses this assembly and he says, I'm not talking about the past. I'm not talking about the future. Say something about now. And then, of course, nobody says anything, so he answers himself. And he says, every day is a good day. which in a way sounds like obvious and simple proposition. But when you reflect on it a little bit, I mean, our karmic lives tell us in very direct and immediate ways that every day is not a good day. So then what is the subtle teaching that he's getting at? And really it's about how do we sustain an attitude of practice that constantly can bring forth the commitment, the enthusiasm, the resolve, the dedication.

[24:49]

What is that inner alchemy that helps that come forth? something to reflect on. How do you work with yourself in a way that keeps your commitment vibrant? Because I would say there isn't a person in this room that doesn't know what they need to know to practice. And given that, the challenge for each one of us is how do you practice what you already know? How do you keep it close? How do you keep it active? How does it not just simply get lost in all the other things that arise? So what is it that brings forth every day is a good day?

[25:55]

So sometimes Zen koans are like this. They state the obvious. Saying something like, okay, the obvious is obvious, but practicing it. Like that story where this person travels a long distance to visit this famous teacher. And he says, could I have your teaching? And the teacher says, do good, don't do bad. And the person is distinctly underwhelmed. And he says, that's the best you got? And the teacher says, yeah, an eight-year-old knows it, but can an 80-year-old practice it? So every day is a good day. Okay, pretty straightforward, just every day. Make your best effort.

[27:02]

But what is, given who you are, given how you are, given what you're working with, how can that happen? That's the koan. You are the koan. The way you come forth in your being, that's the koan. What way is that? What is it that actualizes every day is a good day? And that goes the whole way back to where I started. It's like when we're in the throes of winter and the cold and the dark is pressing on us. It presses us into a place of resolve.

[28:04]

And then spring comes and it invites us into a place of ease. Not to be foolish enough to think that there's something wrong with ease. There's something wrong with the amazing aromas that float in the air or the enchanting call of the birds. how not to let that dissipate the resolve of practice, how to let that gladden the heart and enliven. It's not to set practice up as some kind of stifling austerity, but to watch

[29:09]

how we can float away on the spring breeze. So all of this in every day is a good day. Okay? So, now, I would say, I think this was Dogen's favorite coin. He popped it in a number of places. The sixth patriarch, his main disciple was Nan Huan, Nan Hui. And this coin is about their first encounter. Nan Huan comes to Hui Ning and Hui Ning says, where are you coming from? You know, which is one of those classic Zen questions.

[30:13]

It means like... Where are you coming from? Jamesburg? Or where are you coming from? What kind of disposition? What's going on for you? Or what is the source of all existence? So you get this kind of like triple question. And then the teacher is watching to see, okay, let's see what you do with that. And so he plays it straight. He says, I'm coming from the place of national teacher Songshan. And so Huening presses a little bit and says, what is this that comes, that thus comes? Okay, that's where you're coming from, that's the place. And what is it that thus comes? What is it that comes into being?

[31:20]

What is it to be alive? What is it to be conscious in any moment? So Nung Wei works on the question. eight years none why never put this question aside he served there for eight years and clarified that previous saying then he went back to six ancestor now I understand the question The question you ask me, what is it that thus comes when you receive me upon my first arrival? And the six ancestors says, hmm, okay, how do you understand it?

[32:23]

To explain or demonstrate anything would be to miss the mark. To explain or demonstrate anything would be to miss the mark. So what do you make of that? No. He's saying what? He's saying his understanding of it, he can't actually describe it to define it for him. The negation isn't a description? It's the only way to describe it. I think it's the closest way to describe it. He's offering a negation. Yeah, any of you? Definition is limitation.

[33:26]

Definition is limitation. Okay. Describing it makes it into a concept which removes it from selfishness. Okay. Yes, Steve. To use discriminating mind, expressing the self... Add something to where there's essentially nothing. Hmm. Add something to where there's essentially nothing. Okay. Anyone else? Yes. What flattens right? Explaining? Uh-huh. So for that, yes, sir?

[34:41]

He offered an explanation? Did he offer an explanation or a demonstration? Either one. Either one? Well, he made a proposition. The proposition he made was a negation, but it's still a proposition, right? Saying it's not this. In a way, he was saying, well, if I said this or this, I'd miss the mark. You're saying after practicing with this for eight years, don't know and more have been experienced as having validity. Okay?

[35:44]

Yes. when you shared the story was how diligent he was to see that here. So the question, what does spam? I mean, the heart. So that really does. Yeah. The second thing was, seems like his understanding was not complete in a sense of like, let's have a cup of tea. In a sense of like, maybe seeing the ultimate, but not seeing it actually. Every moment is there. But not forgetting that in both those koan collections the flavor of the first koans is about negation. Don't grasp. Don't know. But indeed how he didn't he didn't settle for

[36:59]

an intellectual response. Oh, yeah, I don't grasp. Yeah, I got it. What's next? Let me work on that for eight years. Let me sit diligently day and night for eight years to see if I can release, let fall away all the ways I affirm all the ways I construct. Okay. And then... The sixth ancestor said... then do you suppose there is practice realization or not?

[38:08]

If everything misses the mark, is there practice realization? Or is it simply negation? Is karmic arising nothing more than delusion? Transformation? What about it? The effort to not grasp is also grasping.

[39:28]

The effort to not grasp. What's the ground for transformation? Seeing it without doing it. Without engaging. You have to kind of trace the space for transformation. Seeing... Maybe I'm not able to articulate my thought. Maybe you are. to grasp it. Seeing what's being grasped, yeah.

[40:36]

And just seeing it, it disappears. In space, with spaciousness, and in that transformation takes place. spaciousness and in that transformation takes place. Okay. So your response to his question is there practice realization or not? Your answer is there is. Okay. It's not real tangible. It's not real. It's not like it's concrete. In other words, I'm not creating another idea to cling to. Okay.

[41:41]

Any other thoughts? Do they necessarily not notice? Any other comments, thoughts?

[42:52]

Which new relationship to it? Is it inevitable just noticing that there's a new relationship? So the formula I offered was notice, acknowledge, contact, and experience. So implicit in that is that in the experiencing there is a dropping away of standing separate and conceptualizing, of putting it into

[44:01]

constructed context of meeting it beyond, experiencing it beyond thought. Does that make sense? Well, Gretchen's shaking her head there. Didn't make sense, Gretchen? Well, let's see. You notice a thought-feeling in yourself. You're annoyed at how someone addressed you. You say to yourself, okay, there is annoyance about how that person just spoke to me. There's a negative judgment about that person.

[45:07]

There is an internal sense of feeling mistreated. And then you contact the state of mind. You contact the emotion feeling arising. And in that contacting, it becomes more sensate. And so it's not so much this construct that's being reinforced, that's being endorsed as reality, that's being held in place with conviction. It becomes sensated, it becomes almost like energy. You know, it becomes a play of thought and feeling sparking each other that's infused with attention and involvement and creating its own expression of existence.

[46:22]

So are experiences different from the way we normally experience our current experiences? Sometimes it's a big process. No, think about it. Think about something in your life. You know, the Shusoul was talking about forgiveness. Think about, you know, there's things in our lives and they can linger for years. You know? And there they are and they're very real. And then at some point... something shifts. The way they were held in place, one of the ingredients is switched. And then it changes. It's no longer that fixed thing. So sometimes, long span of time, sometimes in a moment, sometimes somebody says something to you,

[47:33]

you feel an arising, you just feel it and let it surge forth, let it open out and just respond from a place of presence and ease. So the whole thing happened in two seconds. So that's what I would say is the interesting thing of our human karma, you know? The construct can endure for years, the construct can endure for seconds. So this NACE process might be long or short, but big or small. It has an effect of loosening up the construct, and so when you experience it, then you experience it in kind of a looser form?

[48:34]

I was trying to figure this out. Well, I was being even more radical. I was saying, not only loosens it up, but the construct dissipates. This is Buddha's teaching. When the constituent parts come together and create a reality, there it is. When the constituent parts don't come together or stop coming together, it ceases to exist. It's like a traffic jam. A traffic jam is a whole bunch of cars, but when you're taking cars away... it ceases to exist. Wherever they go. The sixth ancestor asked him a different question.

[49:43]

He asked him, is the realization dependent upon dropping the construct? Because if you think about it, what I was just saying to Gretchen was, oh, and this is how the construct is deconstructed. And you know, before that, Steve was cautioning us, saying, well, deconstructing can be its own assertion. Well, that's the heart of this whole coin, that question.

[50:57]

I mean, that's what he's getting to. And part of the implicit admonition is, don't be precocious. I remember when I was doing therapy, and... I was discussing something. I can't remember what it was. It was very important at the time. But there you go. Now I can't even remember it. And it was a difficulty for me in my life. And then I put it out there and then I said, yes, but such and such and such and such. And the therapist said, don't be precocious. Be the difficulty. Feel the difficulty. Feel those difficult emotions.

[51:58]

Feel that struggle. Because skipping over it, something is, some information is missed. So in this case I would say Let's not be precocious about skipping over the deconstruction because our human nature, our human way is so habituated on construction that it's very instructive for us to this moment of not clinging, this moment of not constructing. And so it's an important point.

[52:59]

And he is, in fact, asking him, saying, well, can you go beyond deconstruction? You know, he's implicitly, and then it becomes more explicit, he's saying, well, can you go beyond the deconstruction, and then can you integrate deconstruction and construction. Just when you're serving, you're holding two worlds or you're holding two perspectives. Serving is a matter of life and death, getting it right and getting it wrong. And at the same time, if you make a so-called mistake, What's next? There's one koan where the verse on it says, dropping the water pitcher and not even looking back.

[54:02]

You know? You make this terrible mistake, you just keep going. Just a second. Go ahead. When you asked the question, what came to me was... you said in a second though about just die as if like there was something that was seen and yet the mind came and constructed something there a self that you understand or have seen something so right now I was reflecting about like this just die is there intimacy in that or not and purely depends on the relationship between the beings, particularly from a student's court. So I have something with this question for a few years, actually.

[55:12]

There is this Suki expression that I've heard three years ago, which says the same thing differently, which is sacrifice one life, save hundreds. I really like it. It's like, oh, it does like, the one part speaks through it. And Scott, but is it like the student, I forgot his name right now, like did not understand what he was doing, what the teacher was doing with him? Well, we will... I mean, deal this part. Well, maybe. I mean, as you mentioned earlier, it's impressive. He asked him a question and was like, I'll get back to you on that. Maybe it'll take me eight years, but, you know, I hear the question, you know. I mean, that's pretty good, you know, to hear the question and think, hmm, okay.

[56:15]

Steve, do you have a comment? And of course, Maybe it's just something I can't get past. It's kind of like, say, I can't have a constructedness without unconstructedness. One reflects on the other. I'm not saying that's a fact. I'm just kind of thinking that's what's true.

[57:21]

Or it's hard to reflect on good without reflecting on evil. Support each other in a way. And yet they're just both applications really because you can have an object and different people can perceive it as good or evil or not at all so the teaching is when we experience when we realize when we become aware of something other than good or evil then that just becomes a paradigm okay that's one way of experiencing this situation, the whole world, myself, or whatever. But it's only realized when we're not simply inside it. As long as we're inside it, it is reality.

[58:24]

The same with any construct. When we're inside it, it's reality. When we see it, oh, There is a version of reality. Yes? The way I would like to answer the question is that practice realization is just yes, yes, yes. A yes that sweeps away all the negations and the sushikha. Because I feel it was wrong. I don't know if I would make that definitive statement. I would say, you know, in the last class I was saying, you know, so when the mind is unruly, it's a tyrant.

[59:28]

It says what's real, it defines each moment, and with that full authority it calls into play the emotions and all the somatic responses and everything else saying, follow me. I am real. And this is like, you know, saying, okay, well then, now that we've tamed that mind, now that it's no longer the tyrant running the show, we can use it as an ally. We can use our natural... inquisitiveness. We can use our discerning mind to quicken, literally, the interest in practice. You know, it's like, I would hope that in ponder this you get a sense of like, huh, maybe I should watch myself and see what kind of constructs

[60:38]

I bring forth? What kind of constructs I hold tightly? And what ones I just let float away in the wind? And what is it to drop? Is it all a matter of forgiveness as the Shouseau was holding up that flower, the flower of forgiveness? Is it a matter of diligence? Or what is this? not being stuck in concepts. Then what is it to use the mind as a tool? What is it to be genuinely interested, to be drawn into genuine interest through thought? Thought that initiates contact Because thought that just initiates philosophizing or abstract thinking, then all you've got is a new and improved, or if it is improved, a new form of construct, you know?

[61:52]

Yes? I hear that and I'm wondering, just like Mu is kind of a negation that sweeps away all constructs, maybe we could say that. Is there... also an affirmative which sweeps away all kinds. Yes. And if you think about it, I went there first, right? Yes, I will. Just say yes to everything. Whatever arises, turn towards it. And going to the Satipatthana Sutta, which just says, what happens like this, notice it. When it happens the other way, notice it. When it's coming into being, notice it. When it's going out of being, notice it. Notice what brings it in. Notice what stops it from bringing in. Notice, notice, notice. It's all about making contact with the experience.

[62:58]

And the marvelous thing about the Satipatthana Sutta, it has no prescription. as to what you do with it when you notice it. It doesn't make any discrimination. It doesn't say, well, this is a bad thing, so get rid of it. This is a good thing, hold on to it. It just says notice everything. So I would say skillfulness is in yes, because... it quickens the capacity for continuous contact. And until there's contact, we're just talking about a dream. And talking about a dream is just another dream. So there has to be contact before we can tick up these more subtle teachings in a real way. I mean, the nature of this is okay, and then...

[64:00]

how do you translate this into your practice? I mean, if you just think, oh, that's a cute idea, and then you go right back to your karmic formations, well, maybe it would have been better if you never heard it. But here we go. Then do you suppose there's practice in realization or not? Now listen to this answer, because this is something. It's not double negative. It's not that there's no practice realization, but only that it can't be defiled. It's not that there's no practice realization, but only that it can't be defiled. In simple terms, the moment is the moment.

[65:07]

You might like it, you might dislike it, you might call it a mistake, you might call it a success. The moment's the moment. In that sense, yes. This negation is about dropping off that which separates, that which clouds, that which covers with the construct. The moment is exactly itself. The moment is completely itself. It can't be otherwise. as Dogen Zinji says, this is not in the realm of thinking. Because within the realm of thinking, there's success and failure and good and bad.

[66:18]

And then as you were saying, when we're close to this state, it has more the or the arising of feeling or disposition, than it does about some fixed idea. And that's why, Steve, we might find, bring it into words, I can't find that. There's something here that the four words is saying yes. But when I try to extend it out with concepts, you don't know that part. Just a second.

[67:21]

It seems like what Dogen keeps saying is that light doesn't divide you just like the moon or the dewdrop, but neither do, as he says here, Domestic thinking knows in bamboo or knots in wood. It's like nothing really divides us. We just think that Domestic thinking is dividing us in the moment that's arising against just the moment. And there is some fundamental way, or is that going too much to the emptiness? Well, because we live in a constructed world. And this is the integration. You serve wholeheartedly, but it just turns out the way it turns out. Those thoughts are just in the moment.

[68:34]

They are. It can't be defiled. In a way, it can't be defiled. Yes. Yeah. And that's why the serving is such a beautiful example because you serve wholeheartedly. It turns out a certain way. It doesn't diminish you. or expand you. Either way, you're exactly, completely what you are. Either way, the whole thing is exactly, completely what it is. It can't be defiled. So this curious balance, we make wholehearted effort. We diligently follow the protocols we've set up for ourselves and there is no success or failure other than what we cook up in our own heads.

[69:37]

And that concept, in Dogen's terms, that's what makes the engagement in it, engagement in the process of realization. That's why Dogen says, It's not like you practice a whole bunch and then there's realization later. It's like you're engaging in this balance right there. You're engaging in the form and emptiness of serving. And it's the wholehearted, it's the complete commitment to it that brings it to life. If you say, oh, it's all empty, what the hell, you know? Something's holding separate. It's only in the thoroughness of the practice that the realization is intrinsic. Did you have your hand up, Dad? No? Is this the same... He's talking to Nanyue?

[70:40]

Yes. Which is the guy who had the... He was poking his student who was sitting Zaza for years about polishing a tile. Or he started polishing a tile. Is that the same guy? No. That was Nangaku and Baso. Which Nanyue? Oh, yes, you're right. Excuse me. Was that conversation with Matsu after? Yes, that was his student. After the eight years of him trying to figure out. Well, this is when he was a student and then that's when he was a teacher. That's really interesting. In what way? Well, because the whole polishing a tile thing is addressing the think not thinking. Are we identifying with the form of Siddhamsazen? What is Siddhamsazen? Yeah. Maybe that's what we're talking about now.

[71:42]

Hopefully. Hopefully that's what we're talking about. Anyway, let me see. Yeah. So sometimes it's very interesting to see how something follows through. Okay, here's how it happened between him and his teacher, and then here's how it happened between him and his student. And you can see, oh, it's a little different, and it has a commonality with it too. I mean, in some ways, and I think this is why Dogen likes both of those chords. That they have that similar flavor you know that It's not all about striving and it's not something that It doesn't involve diligent practice Okay, it's

[72:54]

When he's talking to Basso, you know, and first of all, he's saying, no, it's not that simple. You strive hard and you get what you were striving for. But then he goes on to say, the striving has to be understood in this way, and then it's not grasping. It's not just in the realm of... you make the effort and then you get what you were expecting. It's like you drop the whole thing. So it's a similar notion. And then the sixth ancestor says, in response to him saying, it's not that there's no practice realization, it can't be defiled. This non-defilement is exactly what Buddhas protect and cure for. If you think back to Vendawa, where Dogen's NG says, and this is the transmission of all the Buddhas and ancestors.

[74:04]

Karmic life is what it is. It happens under the particular circumstances under which it happens, and it has an efficacy. It delights us, it dismays us. It's how we access the world and engage the world. And it's all just constructs. But it's an and. It's not you throw one away and just try to live in the other. It's the interplay between the two. This is the teaching of the Buddhas and ancestors. I am thus, you are thus, the ancestors in India are also thus. And then the verse. Having fully cooked all his stuff, Nan Wei played with blowing wind and rising clouds, tasted the tiger's roar, and loved the dragon's call.

[75:14]

single-mindedly striving for eight years, refining gold, dropping body, dropping body. Did he get clear of it or not? What is this thus come and thus appeared? The mind before your father and mother were born, although directly attaining the wonder of right now, Vipassian Buddha, that's the first of the seven Buddhas before Buddha, Vipassyan Buddha maintained this mind before. Vipassyan Buddha, the seven Buddhas before Buddha were also practicing this way. I got really badly hurt when I went into the hospital and asked for stitches, and the surgeon said no.

[76:23]

He said it's too deep. What stitch is it? If we sew up the top, then the bottom will never heal properly. Right. And I'm wondering if that's kind of like these non-answered answers, like saying it's not that it doesn't exist. It's that it can't be defiled. It's kind of like... I can't give you, I can't keep it over and make it look pretty. It's just, it's, it's, it's even move. It's like, you know, sometimes you just have to go around with a big, ugly wound. You can't just sew it off and pretend it never happened. I was going to a slightly different place with your image. Here's where I was going. It's like in some ways it would be convenient to say practices like this, strive hard and good things will happen.

[77:44]

But in a way, that's more an easier formula than the deeper truth. The deeper truth is in our striving, we're striving in relationship to constructs. And the deeper truth is that's our practice. And that how we hold that practice... is what enables realization. And I forgot your question, please. I forgot to ask you. Do you still remember it? It reminds me of this guy's day over eight years. Of a nace day? Every day is a nice day.

[78:50]

Yeah, it was completely. It makes me think with this guy that maybe it was a natural process that he was actually practicing a way to approach inquiry, inquiry at the immediacy of that moment, which in a sense

[79:57]

makes the approach of negation or affirmation one at the same. To approach it from either side is great and it's okay, but they both merge together like negation, true negation is just nace and true affirmation is just nace. Yeah, we can say it like that, right? or we can get stuck in either, right? I mean, that's the nuance of this coin. This is the approach and you can be busy negating everything or you can be busy saying, no, this is the way and this is how it should happen and this is what the result is and that's just compounding a certain level of holding on to constructs.

[81:00]

And yet, we live in a world of constructs. And where I'm going to take this is because I think this is the expression of practice. It's not a simple one in Zen. It's holding both the affirmation and the negation. Okay, this is what we're doing. Do it completely. Okay, this is just completely a construct. And we're being asked to hold them both. And I would say the very same with your own life. Your life creates, your karmic life creates its own constructs. Acknowledge them. I mean, how inspiring.

[82:03]

He heard the question and he just was astute enough to say, I need to work on that. And then after eight years he thought, maybe I have an answer now. And he responded. So I would say... Don't be precocious with your own, and don't be disheartened either, you know, with what comes up for you out of your karmic life. No, don't start judging yourself as, you know, second rate or something. And at the same time, don't try to skip over it. Don't try to do an end run. Oh yeah, but everything's empty. Well, watch carefully because there are moments when it's not empty.

[83:05]

Yes, sir. I know you were saying like, you know, for eight years I've been exhausting myself with affirmation and negation and doing this, dancing this way. I've been dancing and dancing and dancing and I've stopped for a second to tell you about it. I'm going to follow one way to the other. Oh, this is what I'm doing? I read it a little bit more. Let me see why. And this is... I now understand the question. that you gave me when I first came. So he approached him with that brave word, you know, I now understand it.

[84:08]

And probably if we looked at the Chinese, the word wasn't exactly understand, it was more, I now have an appreciation for it. Through my experience, through practicing with it. Not to say every day in between we just don't present what we have, because we're always living what we have, right? And it's its own expression, you know? It can't be defiled. You know, even though we're practicing for eight years, every day we're completely ourselves. It won't exclude anything. It won't exclude anything. Yes. Right. And yet, There's a palpable shift when, even though we might have the concept, there's a palpable shift when we embody it, when we be it, when we be that trust in our own being, that sense of confidence.

[85:34]

And I would say close to that confidence is humility. The tenacity of our karmic arisings is amazing. They can rush in in a matter of seconds. As I said before once, you know, you can watch yourself. Sit a period of zazen, be quite settled, get up and do nothing any more extravagant than do kinhin, and you come back, and there's a whole other mind. Or on any given day, you know, wandering around Tassajara. All sorts of things can arise. And before you know what's happening, you've grasped it firmly.

[86:36]

I would say that's why we always go back to the basic practice. I mean, it's lovely to sit here and talk about the nuances that's being presented. You know, it has a kind of exquisite quality to it. At least it does to me. I hope it meant something to you. But still, we go back to basics. Always, we go back to basics. Be in your body, be in your breath. So this was a con that in the extent of his writings, Dogen used about 300 cons. And many of them he used quite a bit, but this one seems to be of significant relevance to him. This holding both the negation and the affirmation.

[87:41]

And I would say in the realm of practice, say yes to whatever arises. and affirmation, and don't cling to it. Negation. Let it go. What I would say, and what I was trying to say before, was that the yes comes before the no. This is how farming life, both we learn how to be skillful with it by getting in touch with it, but also this is how we start to see through it. When you see the construct, in the seeing the construct you see something else is possible.

[88:56]

No, right now, this is what's arising. Implicit in that is other things are possible too. Maybe the person sitting opposite me is having a different arising. Or maybe if I keep paying attention, in five seconds or five minutes, I'll have a different arising. Yes? Hopefully. Now, investigation can be using, discriminating mind, or investigation can be thoughtless. It's like if we say, what color is the wall? You don't think the color of the wall. You experience it. And when you experience it, it goes beyond a name.

[90:00]

So that's investigation. What was the last word? The root? Does it trying to discover what's the root cause? It's more like stay completely here and open up fully to what arises here. So slightly different. Could exactly what arises here. As I said earlier, sometimes we touch into a deep emotion for ourselves.

[91:04]

And sometimes it's very helpful to stay present with that. and experience the world according to that feeling, which can often be wordless. Would you be willing to explain some more words about just say yes in the sense of sometimes there is a no and the no is the yes. Which means it feels to me that like in our karmic consciousness together, especially, some people might get confused with it, just say yes. And like they will override their inner knowingness because there is misunderstanding of what we can understand.

[92:08]

OK. okay, I'm being raped and I'm saying yes. I was like, oh, no, we should say, we can totally appreciate the experience and say I don't like it. Yes. And I understand it, but I wish you could express that. Well, when, you know, what's happening is what's happening. In contrast to saying, I want something else to be happening. You know, that would be the no. And the yes is what's happening is what's happening. Now, what's the appropriate response to what's happening? That's a different question. That follows on. But if you're not attending to what's happening, appropriate response isn't coming from being present with it. It's coming from something else. Maybe it's just coming from a prejudiced way we address situation or a habituated way. So yes, it's simply saying what's happening is what's happening.

[93:31]

So I was saying the sophistication of this is saying that mind, instead of being a tyrant, defining reality, mind becomes a tool. It's both. I can say to you, what color is the wall? And you can look and grayish white is a dominant thought.

[94:39]

Okay, there's contact there. You may continue to look or you may look with a clearer, more settled mind and experience something beyond me. But the question opens up that possibility. So it's like the question is not just simply saying, well, think about this. It's saying, well, open up to this as much as possible. And then often built into the court, like in any way saying, well, okay, just give me eight years. It'll take a... And in other koans, you know, the answer comes immediately.

[95:46]

Okay, we need to stop so we get to do some zazen before. So you can... A little bit. Okay, thank you. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click giving.

[96:27]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_89.19