This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So before I turn the program over to Tova to introduce the panelists today for our program on the Dharma of Gender Identity, I just want to offer a few words to set the context for our time together. As the late Buddhist scholar and Dharma teacher Rita Gross once said, what does gender have to do with real Dharma? Everything. So I'd like to briefly share several sentences from the description used for today's program. So I'll read these. Buddhism teaches that ultimately we are not our bodies. We are not our form nor our attachment to the social construct of form, including that of gender. And yet we are living beings doing our best to navigate this precious life through our embodied experience.

[01:00]

Only by becoming aware of gender, not by passing it over, are we actually able to apply the teachings of the Dharma and move beyond any latent or immediate suffering gender identification, either in regard to ourselves or others, may be creating. Embracing... and authentically expressing our self-identified gender in our respective communities and societies can be particularly challenging and even dangerous for those of us who don't easily fit into traditional binary manifestations of gender. In what ways does the Dharma support us to live lives of courage, visibility, and liberation? Thank you for being here and for engaging together in the discovery and expression of our true nature. Okay, thank you. So I'll turn it over to Tova now. Good afternoon and a second welcome. I'm glad we're all here together this afternoon to explore this wonderful field of practice.

[02:02]

And I'll just give you an idea of what we'll be doing. So we're going to first ask each of you to introduce yourselves very briefly, very, very briefly. And then the panelists will introduce themselves. I will be asking the panelists some questions. They will have a chance to respond. And we are thinking of three questions. And after that, there will be questions from you to the panel. And there may be some interaction between members of the panel as well. And we're not thinking of this as a rigid format. So if at some point it seems like it would be good to have questions from the audience and then later ask the panel another question, we'll do that. And I think that's the main thing. Yes, and so just to reiterate what David said, you will have a chance to ask your own questions to the panel. And for some people who might not be so comfortable asking a question, the paper is there.

[03:07]

And you can ask your question that way. I will, as moderator... invite people asking questions to pay attention to your tendency to either ask a lot of questions or be holding back. And if you ask a lot of questions, to try to wait until other people have asked questions. And I'll be monitoring that as well so we hear from as many people as possible. So the way we would invite you to introduce yourself is to say your name. and your gender pronoun or pronouns. And the reason we're doing that is that for many of us it's something we just take for granted. We don't have to think about our gender pronouns. And it can heighten our awareness if we do think about what gender pronouns we typically use. So with that, I'll ask... Dana, do you mind starting?

[04:13]

Sure. My name is Dana. Okay, thank you. So now each of the panelists will introduce themselves, and we'll start with Fresh. Hello? Oh, here we go. Yeah, it is kind of intimidating. Shall I sing a song? Hello, I'm Fresh, and my pronouns are masculine or anything kind. And thank you for having me back again. Some of you I met in June for Pride. I gave a talk at Pride. And some of you may have been here for what we did. Myself and Coach Hayner facilitated a trans and genderqueer or beyond the binary ally training. And that was pretty beautiful. So I'm grateful to the Zen Center for all their support. for basically trans lives and trans having a positive experience, trans people.

[05:19]

And everybody under the umbrella, so beyond the binary. Let's see, what do I want to share? So some of you know I'm a life coach and I also practice at the East Bay Meditation Center in Spirit Rock. I've been doing, involved in that community, that Sangha, since 2009. but was introduced to Buddhism probably in the mid-80s, where I practiced on and off up until 2009, where I became most consistent. I was labeled female at birth, and I'm one of those... maybe different people who don't necessarily, I was not born in the wrong body, I was actually born in the right body, and experienced my life as somewhat of a masculine female, and really honored being that. Let's see, I came out as gay, probably in the 70s, so by the time I was 15, I knew I was gay.

[06:24]

By the time I was 21, I was sort of a feminist and I was actually already cross-dressing, as they called it, wearing male clothing. When I turned 38 or so, a straight friend of mine – well, straight-ish because we had kissed a few weeks before – had asked me if I was trans and at that point in my life I had only known transgender women and I was actually really angry by the question because all of the trans people who I knew again were male to female and the struggles and the trials, I thought it was such a trivial question. So at that point I had to then re-educate myself on what transgender was. and still honoring that transition, I came to understand, I understood myself as a trans person. So someone, a female-bodied person, who was not living within the binary, not living under gender constructs, but was in fact masculine.

[07:29]

I spent 10 years from that moment on deciding whether or not I was gonna transition, And every day I asked myself, am I going to be a misogynist? Am I going to be all these weird things that I had learned about what it would be like to be male? And then I turned to all my male friends who were actually beautiful, gentle people who eventually taught me how to cry and realized, oh, I actually have a choice of what kind of male I want to be. And so I transitioned. This will be, oh, actually, I guess September this year is six years. Yeah. So I've transitioned for six years. Let's see if there's anything else I want to share. When I transitioned, I never transitioned so I could be sitting up here. And sometimes I'm challenged being an educator in the community, except when I look to my youth and I see it as a responsibility. And I guess I feel fortunate that I've... had opportunities to elevate myself and my community in a way where people are willing to listen as I advocate for youth, for trans women, for trans people of color of all genders and people of all genders.

[08:44]

Yeah, and I guess what's important also is that I'm a happy person. I've always been happy. I really loved what Gene said. If I can remember exactly what he said, it was something like, Well, it was under the air of, we've always been here, and we will, we've always been here, and there's something about, I can't remember the exact words, but there's something about this experience in itself will create a whole different experience for the next generation. I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Thanks, Resh. How's that sound? It's okay in the back? Okay. My name is JD Doyle, and my given name was Joan, and any of you who were born Catholic know that you name your kids after saints, and so I find it quite fortuitous that I was named after Joan of Arc, who was a cross-dressing saint who heard voices, spoke to God, all that sort of thing.

[09:59]

And so while I go by JD, some people continue to know me as Joan, and that seemed very appropriate that my parents had that foresight to set me on the path, so to speak. And although it wasn't intentional. So I also practice at EBMC, East Bay Meditation Center in Oakland. I am one of the teachers there. And currently I'm also in the teacher training at Spirit Rock Meditation Center. And so I'm really excited to be part of a very diverse, primarily POC teacher training, a four-year program that just started at Spirit Rock Meditation Center. And... And so I really see myself as part of that wider liberatory struggle of how gender lands in this world that we live in that includes diverse bodies and color and shape and size and gender and the ways that we are seen and met in the world.

[11:00]

Um, just to kind of, since you were talking about, you know, growing up, I wanted to say that, you know, when I was young, I always imagined that we would move to a new town and I could be a boy and grow up as a boy. And, um, you know, it's amazes me because I grew up in a small town in New England where it, I don't know how that message got to me. Like I wasn't in the news. Um, It wasn't on the TV, but there was still that dream. And so like many people, when they hit adolescence, their life shifts dramatically. And that was true for me. And so when I hit adolescence, all of a sudden I was supposed to be this box of a girl and act a certain way. And it was very, very challenging for me. And there were many years of depression and suicidal thoughts and just really a lot of hatred towards myself. And I know that that continues continues today even though we have a greater expression of gender and orientation and so many areas, there's still a real need for us to think about the consequences of our actions, especially on our youth, because there's a higher rate of suicide and depression for people who express themselves outside of the binary.

[12:14]

And so part of my life's practice has been working in education. I work in public schools, so, you know, it's a really wonderful place to be. And any of you who work there know that it can be kind of a place where you're supposed to uphold very rigid morality in our society. Maybe not in San Francisco, but I work in Concord, and it's amazing when you go 20 miles east what happens. So I am an advocate not only for myself and the communities I'm in, but I really believe in expressing myself fully so that others who aren't able, like I wasn't at some points in my life, can feel more comfort. And I also find that in many communities that I'm in, I'm a bridge builder. So that means that I am open, I shouldn't say always, that I try to be open to sharing and experiencing with others different perspectives around things. And so I'm really excited about doing that today here.

[13:16]

So thank you all. Thank you for inviting us. I'm just really appreciative of everybody taking this time to show up and have this conversation. So thank you. My name is Bree Barnett. Can everyone hear me? Great. I use they and she pronouns, ideally interchangeably. I'm a trans woman. I also kind of... more politically than a deeply felt sense of it, am against the gender binary. So I call myself a non-binary trans woman. And for me, what that really means is having a sense of an ideal that if we could remove gendered expectations from how we're reading people's bodies and projecting assumptions onto them... before we've even said anything to them or heard them, that, you know, to me, that just sounds more like a world I would like to live in.

[14:16]

So for me, that's always, that's what I mean by non-binary for myself. Because otherwise, the ways in which my proclivities take me, I end up occupying a space that our society has really marked out for women and labeled female. So that's a little bit about my gender. I also practice at East Bay Meditation Center. I also practice a lot outside of East Bay Meditation Center. I think that I bring perhaps a bit more of a lay experience to this panel. I mainly practice in smaller community. I was trained to... lead people in meditation through eSpace Meditation Center's Practice and Transformative Action Program, which was created with an idea of teaching people self-identified as social change agents how to lead other people in meditation.

[15:18]

And so I've hosted small meditation groups in my home for trans feminine people and trans women who might not be feminine as well. and places in my workplace, places like that. So if anyone, I know this is not a topic as much for this panel, wants to discuss working with lay populations or you are interested in perhaps taking more of a leadership role or just introducing your friends to mindfulness, those are also conversations I'm really interested in and passionate about. In terms of gender, I think, accordingly a lot of, you know, I think we live and by living we create possibility for people around us. I think certainly youth are a large population there. I'm also very interested in peer-to-peer support networks of trans people and building those and creating space and opportunity for other people to feel more comfortable moving into their identities.

[16:24]

Because I know for so many people, you know, I think sometimes you read on forums and you see someone being like, I'm 16 year old, is it too late to transition? It's like, oh, you lucky person getting to figure this out at 16. But this goes on, and then it's, oh, I'm 20 years old. Am I too late to transition? Oh, I'm 25 years old. I'm 30. I'm 40. I'm 50. I'm 60. Is it too late for me? And I believe the answer is no for people. And I think it's important to create space for people people to find themselves at any point in their life experience. And whenever that is, for whatever reason, it can be a beautiful thing. And so a lot of when I think about the types of communities I try to create, I really want to hold all of those life experiences in mind as well.

[17:26]

The other thing I feel... to say is, just going back to my own experiences of gender, I also, you know, and I think you will hear a diversity of experiences reflected on this panel, something I like to speak to is I don't necessarily think that I ever really was a boy or that I necessarily had a boyhood, although that's a common narrative and understanding of my life. I don't think my life makes sense to me. I don't think I was having particularly male experiences of the world or I don't think I would be where I am today. So just a little thing I felt like sharing and I'm honored to be here in the Zen Center. It's a lovely space and thank you for having me. My name is Gene and you've heard a lot of my voice today so I'll keep this short. A little bit of my history

[18:27]

When I was a child, I knew that I was male. And I was born into a female body and labeled female. And I'd say stuff like, you know, I know I look like a girl, but I'm not really a girl. And they'd go, yeah, you are, look. And I'll prove it to you. So I tried, I tried for a long time. I transitioned female to male more than 20 years ago now. And when I transitioned, I was teaching in the public school systems. I transitioned on the job with great support of my superintendent and director of personnel. That was a trip, I'll tell you, walking around every school, every department, every staff meeting and saying, this is my name now. When I come back in September, my new name will be And I have been using the women's bathroom. And when I come back in September, I'll be using the male bathroom.

[19:31]

And the school system not only just rolled with it, but was completely, totally supportive of me. Impressive. There are actually a few reasons why I'm really glad I had life experience in a female body. For one, I understand what it's like to walk around and be afraid. And there are a couple of incidents in my life that I wouldn't have had the experience of had I not been female. For example, learning backstrap weaving in southern Mexico from a woman named Sha'antun. And I wouldn't have had contact with her had I not been female-bodied at the time. And a second incident in my life of being at the birth of my niece, who's now around 26 years old.

[20:35]

I know her mom would not have wanted me in the birth room had I not been female at the time. So there are a few reasons why I'm actually glad I had that life experience. And what you see is now a more complete expression of my true self. I think that might be enough for now. You've heard my voice a lot. Thank you. Thank you all for introducing yourselves so fully and beautifully. And I'm going to ask the first question, which I would like each of you to respond to, and we'll start with Bri this time. The question is can you share about your experience of being a trans or beyond the binary person and your practice with the Dharma? And along with that are there particular Dharma teachings that are helpful and relevant to you or that have inspired you?

[21:42]

Thank you. For me, I think so much of my experience of transness and with the Dharma, I would hear many things, but before even having the ability to kind of understand Dharma teachings and understand myself, it really began with sitting. It began with core practices of mindfulness and training myself to sit, and be with what was actually there. By the time I found meditation, I believe I was 22 or 23, for various reasons, I think many of which related to my transness. I'd become very good at intellectualizing myself out of reality. I had become very skilled at disassociation and not being present in my body. I had developed all of these defense mechanisms, many of which are still within me.

[22:48]

If you ever need anyone to not feel something mildly uncomfortable by just kind of like getting out of their body, I'm very skilled at that. And so just that foundational practice of sitting and facing what's there was so important. And then when I came to Oakland, the East Bay Meditation Center's Alphabet Sangha felt like a safe space for me to go and explore in community, you know, whatever. At the time, I always thought it was like a weird sexuality thing I had going on with myself. because also part of a closeted experience, I think, is not having access to those communities that will support you and those life experiences that have the ability to show you what is possible. And so showing up consistently for a few months to that space, I think, helped create the preconditions necessary for me to face myself.

[23:54]

And then... You know, the practice forms the foundation for it. I feel like there are so many teachings in the Dharma that are very relevant to trans experience. I think the concept of no permanent self, no abiding self, is so important to this experience because it creates space to acknowledge that change happens and change happens with ourselves for all of us, regardless of trans experience. You know, I have a few months moments in my life that I can really point to as definitive moments of change. You know, this surgery or that coming out or these hormones at this levels in my body. Those are very tangible, but just throughout that, a shifting sense of who I am and how I am in the world is very important because it also allows for a sense of continuity.

[24:55]

I think sometimes when people hear no self, they think, oh, there's no continuity there, there's nothing there, perhaps. But for me, it's really about being able to create space for change and also recognize that there were elements of me in my past incarnations of myself and be able to form some type of consistency, feeling like I led a life that existed before coming out or transitioning or anything like that. So that's been a very helpful teaching and very central to my journey. So in my practice with the Dharma, what has been... really important to me is I would say what has been foundational to me kind of getting hooked with the Dharma and staying with it is loving kindness.

[26:04]

And a lot of that has to do with my relationship to myself when I started and the transformation that happened with having metta loving kindness practice that I started right away. And so the teacher who I was working with in New Mexico, Eric Colvig, just said, every day. And so that's what I did. And so I practiced that for over a year. And it really transformed my relationship to myself and created a lot more kindness. And within that field of kindness, all of the projections that I had from external and internal, I was able to hold them with much more grace and compassion. And so as I was able to do that, then I was actually able to, I was hooked. Then I started studying and learning a lot more of the other, kind of what I would say, I don't want to use the word deeper, but maybe complex or intricate.

[27:08]

And I'm kind of following on some of the things that you were saying this morning, Jean, about the projections that we have and how... we see ourselves and see each other and get concretized around that. And so which ties into anatta, it ties into, you know, dependent origination. And so, so many of the teachings of the Buddha help us understand how what we're seeing and relating to in the world is through our conditions and our habits of society and family and all of these constructs that we have taken to be truths. And those of you, and I know so many of you have studied the Dharma deeply, probably more than I, know that what we hold as truths as we are... growing up in our society, you know, we can be blown out of the water and we can really come and see each other in the space of understanding in a whole different way.

[28:15]

So I hope, so like, I guess I'm kind of piggybacking on, you know, anatta and interconnectedness and no abiding self and also just really the foundation of the Brahma Viharas and the loving kindness practice. Thank you. Did you want to go first, Jean? Yeah, so... I practiced in what's called a refuge group at EBMC, and I was a part of a group called... It was actually queer men of all colors, and all queer men. So at the time, identifying... I hadn't transitioned yet, but identifying as male. And I remember... At some point, finally, so I did that for about two or three years before I finally walked into the East Bay Meditation Center. And I walked in on a night that Spring Washam, one of our teachers, was giving a talk about self-love and compassion, which she often does.

[29:17]

And in her talk, she mentioned something, and I can't find it, and she couldn't remember it, right? Just like most of us can't remember unless we write it down. Something about... that reincarnation and awakening is something that is ongoing. It's not like we wake up and then we're done. And there was a way that she phrased the reincarnation that I finally understood why I had... By the time I got to her class, I had transitioned, meaning that I started taking testosterone. And it clicked for me why I had... done so at 48 years old because I had questions, right? Some people mentioned always knowing. And so when I was six, I identified as a big brother. And for me, living a life as literally what I described, and I don't, you know, no respect to anybody, as a two-spirit person, which I still see myself, a spiritual being, meant that I didn't need to, you know, I don't know that if I, I'm glad I didn't transition before I did because I only did it when I needed to do it.

[30:20]

the practice of loving kindness helps me to be able to be with comes up when I am questioning my gender or having struggles with even the growth and expansion of gender that I can't always keep up with and the abiding in the body part so I am not myself and yet I am I am and There is no body and there is a body. And so being able to – for me to be really honest about – honesty for me means that – let me back up. Hold on a second. Give me a second. Sometimes I have a struggle with being the spiritual being and the physical being, and I think that what's important is that the heart of this being is the same no matter what the physical presentation is.

[31:25]

And what I talked about before about not being born in the wrong body, for me, I don't, and I just want to put it out, like, I would not have transitioned if our society wasn't so conditioned into the binary. But in order for me to be recognized as my masculine self, this is the presentation that I have. And it's painful sometimes because I don't identify as a man, though that's part of my description. Because I identify as a human being who is living a human experience, which means that I am ever expansive and that there's no box that I actually fit in. My work in the Dharma helps me to get to this place. My practice of being able to be with myself and be with others and be honest with what is allows me to get to this place where I'm still growing and expanding who I am and how I feel and maybe what I want to say. So come back in 10 years and we'll see.

[32:35]

In the Dharma, This training that we experience regularly of sitting and not turning away is probably the thing that has been most formative. You know, I might grind on something for a while, a day or a week or a month or a year in Zazen. But then there's always something that happens. What happens? Catherine, I used to say, and then something happens and she'd get this big grin. What is that? There's no way to explain exactly what happens. But the grinding away turns into a kind of curiosity. And, oh, what about that? Something shifts, something opens. And that experience of my body on the cushion in the shift is probably what keeps me engaged in the Dharma. If I truly had the ability socially to pick a gender pronoun or a pronoun at all, I would pick we.

[33:49]

But I don't want to sound like the Pope. So I don't. But that's the most authentic thing is everything we do is connected. others on the panel a question at this moment? No? If not, I'm thinking it might be good to take a few questions from those of you who have been listening for almost an hour and see what's... And yes, and collect questions. So if you'd like to write a question, we had passed out paper. If you didn't get any, maybe there's some on a seat that isn't occupied. And if you need a pen, would you raise your hand so that... Where are the pens right now? Not sure. Disappeared. They're moving around. They're moving around. Okay, so if you could keep those pens moving back, perhaps, in case people need a pen.

[34:55]

Anyone need a pen, raise your hand. Okay, so if you wish to write a question, please do so, and then maybe pass it to this... side of the room, and David will collect them. So would anyone like to ask anyone on the panel a question? And would you say your name before your question, please? Thanks. Hi, Phyllis. And Jean, I wanted to ask you... Closer, okay. Oh, yes, great. Jean, I wanted to ask you a question, if I might. Given your position as a brown-robed transmitted teacher, and given the teaching of this school about no self and no abiding self, right? And form is emptiness, emptiness is form. What was it that made you feel that you had to transition this non-abiding self and this formless emptiness body to another gender?

[35:59]

What was there... my life experience was the experience of living as male, but you couldn't see it. And there is a very particular moment in my life. I was climbing one of the big walls in Yosemite, the direct north buttress, anybody who knows faces on exactly to El Capitan. And are the people from Estonia still here? Okay, well, my guide was an Estonian guy named Andy Pavel. Anyway, we were... on about the 12th pitch, probably way up there, anyway, pretty high. And I was tied off and he was coming down and we were looking over at the tops of trees. And between the tops of trees and my body, Andy's body, was a helicopter. So that gives you a sense of how high off the ground, the floor of the valley we were.

[37:03]

And somewhere down in the valley, a horn honked. And my internal question rose up, what could be so important? I don't have a concrete answer to that question, but the what could be so important question is what shifted me to when I went up to that 12th pitch, I was female body. And when I returned to the valley floor, I knew I had to change my body. Don't know exactly what occurred in that pivotal moment. Something occurred in that pivotal moment. And now in retrospect, it is exactly for this moment. Please let my life inform you. Is there anyone else who would like to respond to that question?

[38:16]

I want to add to that. One of the things that I find that happens when we begin talking about trans lives is that we make an assumption that people have decided to adjust their body in some ways to inhabit non-binary. I haven't made that choice as a genderqueer person. I've thought of that choice and it hasn't I've never come to a decision, and I don't know, perhaps I will. I've never come to that decision to actually make choices to adjust my body medically. And I think it's interesting in our society because everything's set up so much on the binary and that it's almost as if making a change to our body is... And I think also I want to kind of put this in the frame of kind of the medical industrial complex where we look at things as a problem that needs to be fixed.

[39:23]

And so if we were to kind of take out the idea that there was a problem that needed to be fixed, then... all the medicine that's needed for us would just be offered as something that's needed for us. And so for some of us to live, to be alive, we often engage in this system that allows us to have a presentation that is appropriate. And some of us haven't engaged in that system and we're still under that the umbrella of non-binary. And so one of the things that I've actually found is in talking to people who identify even within the binary, as we begin to explore gender, the boxes of the two genders get even larger. And they realize, and we all realize that, you know, what we had preconceived notions around female or male is actually limited as well.

[40:28]

And so... the expressions of our gender can be in our gender roles, in our gender, in our clothing, in our bodies, in the way we speak. And so there's so many ways that we can manifest gender. And so sometimes I think it becomes down to how do we adjust this thing, form. And so there's lots of ways of manifesting it. And so I just want to celebrate that as well. Yeah, and I want to throw out, because of some of the work that I do, like honoring those who do choose a binary, who choose to live in a binary gender. And how do we honor everybody for the way that they want to express themselves, no matter what it is? Certainly, I don't look at someone like JD and say, you're less trans because you haven't done anything.

[41:30]

How do we just see each other as human beings and the gifts that that brings? I think Jean was talking about how if we look at our various cultures, and that includes European, when we look back at our, because we only usually see this in people of color, but if you look back at our various cultures, there have always been people who have lived beyond the binary or someplace in between the binary. And it's not just our medical system, but our religions and our marketplace for sure are making sure that we... stay within these artificial structures. Somebody was talking about being a cook in the house, whereas it's okay for a man to be a chef, but he can't cook in the house. And the one thing I think I brought up last time that I always like to bring up is how in the, I think it was the late 30s, early 40s, where the fashion kings and queens of that time decided that boys will no longer wear pink.

[42:40]

And just look at how we submit to what we're told that we're supposed to do and be, even when it doesn't feel good in our hearts or it doesn't even make any sense. Women can't wear pants, own houses, men can't cry to be nurses. We don't even really think beyond that. So I just want to throw that out. Hope it wasn't a diatribe there. And I'd just like to always bring in the perspective of, in a way, I guess, harm reduction. You know, I think, like, ultimately, so many of these decisions are made so that we can live in ways that are more comfortable or, for some people, just, like, literally go on living. You know, I think when we're thinking of concepts of no self, For whatever reason, it's easy to attach them to, like, well, why did you need to change or this or that. But I don't feel like these questions come up as much if, you know, you're playing in the street and a car comes along and it's like, well, why did you need to get out of the way of the car if there's no self?

[43:52]

There's no self before, there's no self after. Just stay in front of the car. And... You know, I think there we really need to use our wise discernment and ability to be really in touch with ourselves and say, all right, what is it that I need to do in order to, you know, be more comfortable? Similarly, if you're sitting and your leg just, like, completely falls asleep, it's looking like, you know, you're going to, like, perhaps just completely lose blood flow, are you just going, like, are you really out of practice if you make a minor adjustment for slight comfort, like is that between you and enlightenment, that slight adjustment? And I would posit probably not. Okay, thank you. Maybe we're ready for the next question, Lauren? Yeah, I like words, I like to play with my words, and I like to say things.

[44:57]

I could maybe say for you what you're already saying, which is that it was very important to you at one point to either be a man or to be a woman. It was very, very important to you. And so I think that's fine. It doesn't hurt you. It doesn't hurt anybody else. What's the big deal? You know, let it be, let it be. But I think that most people... And for your self-realization, you need to do this for yourself. It's okay. Why do you have to explain it to anybody? Why do you have to defend yourself? I had to transition because it's like an oncoming car. I had to move. So that's why I think about it. Just trying to put words in your mouth, okay? Is there a question there? Did you hear a question there? No. Okay, thank you. So I feel like, is this on?

[45:59]

Hello? Hello? Might be like a 101 question here. Is this good now? Yeah. So this feels like a 101 question. So for me, like, inside, or like if I sit in Zazen, I don't have an experience of male or female. I experience being treated as a female by other people, so I think that must be what I am, and sometimes it's very painful to be treated as a female. And what I hear you saying is kind of very clearly, I didn't have the male experience, or I didn't have the female experience, and I'm wondering what you mean when you're saying that. I'll give you a couple of examples. It used to be in the early years, when I was still apparently female or female-bodied, I'd go to the lumber yard, for example, and be working on a project, whatever it was, and there was this attitude like, you know you don't belong here.

[47:15]

That's changed now, I'm glad to say. Not just for me in my current body, Other women going to the lumber yard don't feel that same kind of pushback in modern times. So in that way, contrary now, when I currently go into a fabric store, I'm a sewing teacher for Buddhist robe. When I go into a fabric store now, many other people, the clerks and so on, will congratulate me. How great that you're in the fabric store. What are you working on? What's your project? And all excited. So it's just like, whatever that construct is that women are supposed to go here and not there, and women are supposed to go there and not here, or men are supposed to be here and not there, whatever that is, gets so blown out of the box that it starts to not matter anymore.

[48:22]

However, it's also true that society has boxes and the way society responds to us kind of, how can I say it, forces us to conform whether or not it's true. So the individual response to the world creates a dynamic that may or may not fit. I'm sensing that I'm not getting at your question. Maybe somebody else can do a better job. I have the experience that you're describing all the time. I think many men and women have that same experience who don't feel the need to transition in some way or the other. I think what I'm asking is, on a feeling level, what does... to say I feel male or I feel female, what does that mean?

[49:27]

You know, and I know this is somewhat tautological, but in some ways, for me, reflecting on it, it's like, I don't know, I don't think, If I was a boy growing up, I would have turned out like this, for example. And I don't know, that sense of feeling is, for me, heavily associated with a sense of depersonalization. So when I say I wasn't didn't have male experiences growing up. I don't mean that no one ever treated me as male. People very aggressively treated me as male. That was part of the problem for me. What I mean is the way I experienced those expectations and how people were treating me was off. It was like someone was interacting with a third party that wasn't really there.

[50:35]

And accordingly, I adjusted myself. I learned to play the gendered games that we all learn how to play. But it all fundamentally felt just... wrong and I'm not sure if there's any way to really capture or explain that experience of wrongness except just to say you know if like that feeling of wrongness really resonates with your own experiences of gender I can't say what anyone's gender is but that might be something worth sitting with and looking at and you know wondering and you know for me it was like all right, what if I just start living the way I want to live, acting on the desires I have, presenting myself, speaking in a voice that I would choose for myself instead of trying to conform to what other people's expectations are, taking other people's assumptions of me too seriously and conform to those, and that's the difference.

[51:45]

It's really just acting how I want to act. And in the society we live in, those ways are associated with being a woman. And so that is how I am. I wanted to say that I love that question. And mostly because it's not something that when you're a child, anyone says, so how do you feel today? And, you know, you have the option of, I mean, in my experience, nobody said, oh, you want to go out and wear boys clothes or go play football, go for it. If you feel like being cadet, you know, or whatever the things that I was feeling that I wanted to do that were masculine, like that wasn't an option. And so if you're actually feeling comfortable in your body and... Well, let me back up and say most of us aren't even aware that we have a choice to have a feeling.

[52:47]

So when the feelings may come up, they get squished right away. So I may feel like a boy, but people readjust, readjust, readjust, readjust. So that for some people, it becomes this thing of – not just an invisible feeling, but like it's an impossibility for me to even try to live this. Does that make sense? So I think it's hard. It's almost like asking how, I mean, I think it's just really hard to explain what it was for me to feel like a boy, but it's like I had choices around what I was going to wear to Sunday school. I did not want to wear the dress and pet leather shoes. But that's what I was forced to wear. And whenever I could, I got out of it. But I knew that that wasn't what I was supposed to be. And I think I have no idea what would have happened if that door would have been opened. If someone would have said, like, or happening, like, just happened to, I have some family, friends, and the youngest transitioned, started transitioning at four or five.

[53:56]

And the family is embracing it, getting education around it, because this is how this person identifies. But it's something like you just know. You just know. And I don't think if anybody said it, but according to the people who make the decisions, the psychiatrists, you know by three for sure what your gender is. And then it's a matter of... your own personality too. So you might be a personality that's like, this is not right, keep pushing, which is sort of what I was like. Or you might be a conforming personality, depends on your experience, you can't be abandoned by your family, blah, blah, blah, it goes on and on. So. So we have a question in writing. Okay, well, let's do it after. Thank you. I wanted to thank you. You've all, can you hear? You've all shown incredible courage pushing this society and culture in new directions with your identities. And I can't do anything except appreciate and applaud that. And what I'm interested in is as you come into your new identity, you start to realize that it actually causes great fear in other people.

[55:05]

What kind of de-escalating behaviors have you learned in dealing with the fears of others that you're not wanting to cause but do by simply who you are? Not because you confront them, but because of just who you are. That alone will cause fear in other people. I'm curious, what have you learned? And I'm not asking for a deep Buddhist answer. I'm not going to let you refer back to the practice. I'm going to ask you, what on a superficial level really helps de-escalate a situation when you know you've just started somebody or they've already overreacted to you? I'll quickly say that, you know, When I transitioned, I had transitioned after a friend of mine who's, you know, white or Euro-American identified, and he said to me, isn't the privilege amazing? And I said, I have the privilege of being pulled over for drinking water and possibly being shot in the context.

[56:08]

the privilege of being part of a community which has the highest rate of suicides. 55% of trans men of color are in the suicide range or attempted suicide. So in that, the other work that I do is I work with trans women who don't have the privilege of necessarily looking like an acceptable woman in society. And so that's where I have to do my de-escalation work is when someone is being attacked in one way or another. And I've seen it happen and I've experienced it happening. And no matter what I'm teaching and doing, partially because of Dharma, partially because of my Al-Anon work, I approach everything with compassion. Generally, people who are triggered, they're triggered because we live in a society that has told us what is right and what is wrong, and or they're having an internal experience or threat around their own gender or sexuality that encourages them to attack.

[57:13]

So, generally, my mode of operation is to approach someone with compassion, ask them what's going on for them, why it's a problem, and when I can, throw out different things that are not personal about why they may be, why they are conditioned the way they're conditioned. And that generally helps. Does anyone else want to respond? I have an example that's not really a fear-based example, but it's a dynamic example. When my voice changed really fast. So I started hormones in February of one year and by April or so my voice had already dropped and and I still looked but in staff meetings I started to observe gender bias because all of a sudden my voice carried a different kind of weight you know

[58:25]

And I got mad because I'm like, stop giving me so much power from that point of view. But where I've gone with it now is just make sure that every meeting I'm in, I make effort when I'm aware and conscious to include everyone, to not let the voice be the dominant thing. So it's not exactly a fear-based example, but it's one of the dynamics that occurs in society, and that's how I've worked with it. I mean, the really practical answer from my lived experience is, you know, flight or fight and flight, which is when maybe you yell something back while you're moving away. Because physical distance is important, and in my experience, and I invite anyone in this room to prove me wrong at any point in time, no one's going to intervene.

[59:30]

Like I've been harassed all types of ways people have threatened to kill me in very public places. And really the practical advice is, you know, you find a way to get to safety. I know you said not to look at it from a Dharma lens, but I... I don't feel like I, it's hard for me to disassociate that part of myself, just like I can't disassociate the gender part of myself. And so partly my response is like, I'm actually not responsible for your fear. You know, I'm not, fear arises in all of us from things we don't know. And so my position is that, you know, I look at fear as like if I'm safe or not, or whoever's safe, there's a responsibility. But if somebody is experiencing emotion of fear, we all experience emotions of fear.

[60:33]

And that's what we as a society work to support each other and being safe and celebrating each other. And so on an individual level, it might not be my responsibility to educate that person. depending on my resources, depending on my safety. Somebody else may at some point, and it may be that that's not happening in this lifetime because some people have very definitive views based on their own experience. And that's one of the beautiful things about being in a Dharma setting is that we can investigate and look into that. If the person is open to investigating fear, that's one thing, but if the person isn't open and is being very defensive, then it might be a place where leaving is very appropriate.

[61:33]

I just want to say, because I wasn't totally honest, because I'm remembering being in a bar in New Mexico, where there was a trans woman there, I didn't know her, and having these three guys harassing her at the pool table. And I was a fighter when I was a kid. I mean, I was a good fighter, and I got in their faces then. So if I walked down the street and Brie was getting harassed, I would probably jump in between her and that person and become the kid of the Bronx that I was, trying to bring in as much drama as possible and give them some options. But... Sometimes yelling back is the only way to get. So I think it's complicated. I think it's a hard question. I think that I just didn't want to come off as some purist because I'm good, but I'm also bad. And so the question is always what's happening in the moment? What is the safest thing to do in the moment? And how do we take care of ourselves, whether we're the defender or the person being attacked?

[62:41]

This is a very good question. Thank you. Are there any learnings in Al-Anon about this subject? Absolutely. Right? So one of them is like, depending on the... Can anyone hear that question? Yeah. Oh. He said, are there any learnings in Al-Anon about this position or this question? He has plenty of fear. Right. So, you know, first of all, looking at our fear, where we're coming from, being... trying to be awake and conscious in the situation. What is the safe thing to do? When are we overstepping our boundaries, right? So there might be a time when I'm like, let's both run the hell out of here, right? And not taking on more than I can handle. Those would be some of the teachings, right? Because we want to overcare and that can be harmful for us and others as well. Was that a useful response? Because I just went to a meeting last week. I want to make sure it worked.

[63:47]

Okay, this question is, how should we meet someone who self-identifies as transracial? For example, Rachel Dolezal. Dolezal, I don't know who that person is. Maybe you do? Are we talking about the woman who was white and... Yeah, and the NAACP, which is a little bit off topic here, but I have to tell you that I actually met her with compassion. Clearly, she's got some emotional and or spiritual stuff going on. She didn't know what she was doing. Attacking her does not serve anything. That's my response to that. Yeah, the second part... Are there parallels between gender and race as a social construct and box to break out of? Yes. Someone earlier asked the question, how does responding to Jean...

[64:53]

How are we going to transgress transviolence or transphobia if we haven't done so with race? And I just want you to notice that I would not be in this room if changes hadn't happened. I wouldn't be able to talk. I might be serving, but I might not even be allowed in this building. So some of what we get to focus on is actually what's working in order to help us drive forward what we want to see and have happen. So, of course, racism, which is a social construct, by the way, our responsibility to look at it as a social construct and understand what that means. So, of course, we have a long way to go, and we have to look at the ways that it has progressed. I don't know if anybody on the panel wants to. One of the things that's really challenging is looking at the isms and saying let's compare this ism to that ism to this ism in the various ways that oppression manifests in our society because you know it is a construct and we all in the societies that we've grown up in and I'm not assuming that we all have grown up in the same one here but so that I'm gonna kinda flip that to us being here in the Dharma world and

[66:18]

Sorry if I'm a broken record here. But we here are in a liberatory practice of freedom from greed, freedom from hatred, and freedom from delusion. And they are ultimately, on the ultimate realm, they are constructs. So in the ultimate realm, if we all were to live there, yes, we could all just be maybe not even human beings, sentient beings, right? And so that those constructs that help us navigate in the world some of them not helping us, wouldn't be there. But so if we, I mean, delusion is part of what causes us to create constructs because we need something to hold on to and be able to meet someone. And so those constructs are useful. And if they are no longer useful, then we can begin to blow them up. And society doesn't always operate at the same level. rate that other people operate at, so we still are navigating within that realm. And so I think it's a very complex question, and I also think that it gets into fear, and being a human is life of complexity, so.

[67:34]

Thank you. Anyone else? Yeah, thank you. And how do we navigate between that realm of the ultimate and the conventional realm in which we all live, in which we have identities? Yeah, so... I guess I asked a question. What's that? I guess I asked a question that wasn't on the list. Yeah. So one of the things that I actually kind of, looking at our questions, I want to talk about how, you know, part of that is creating, creating places that we can operate in and become more of ourselves. And as we, you know, become more of ourselves, then we actually can let go of that self. And so one of the beautiful things in my life is the East Bay Meditation Center. And so when I came into the Dharma, there, you know, it didn't exist. And I was lucky enough to have a Dharma teacher who was queer and had a very open sensibility around practice.

[68:41]

Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. I mean, I can say that very clearly that, you know, I was not, I wouldn't have... I wouldn't have access to the teachings if I hadn't come in through that door. And after I'd entered the door, then I could be in other places that were straighter, that were heteronormative, that, you know, people would say things and I'd be like, that ain't true in my life. You know, and because when you're practicing, you know, you're just robing, you're cutting, you're taking all those. And there's places when you're taking off your identities or creating your identities that are very tender. And I'm sure all of you have experienced that in your practice. And so depending on where we're at, as we learn about ourselves, it's really important that we have communities that can speak to us, whether it's the POC sitting group or the Alphabet Brothers of Color that we have at EBMC. And we also have, you know, Everybody, Every Mind, which is for people who have experiences of emotional or psychological or physical experiences of living that are different.

[69:48]

So everybody, every mind. So many ways that we can create a place for us to flourish and to blossom. It's so for me, you know, I just get so excited about the East Bay Meditation Center. And it's not to me, it's not to say that everything's rosy there, because you throw us all there and we're going to have conflicts. But conflicts are beautiful. Conflicts are opportunity. Conflicts are the possibility for us to have different opinions and to move into intimacy. there's also a possibility that we have conflicts and we break. And Larry Yang, whose recent book is just coming out, Awakening Together, one of my teachers talks about can we break together rather than break apart. And so, you know, I like the idea of breaking or blowing up or, you know, kind of so that that sense of operating in this realm, we do need to find that safety. We do need to find those communities. We do need to find the Sangha.

[70:49]

In the ultimate realm, you know, It's all bliss, baby, right? So that ties into our second question, which I'm going to just restate. Thank you, J.D. What is your experience in and out of Dharma communities as a trans or beyond the binary person? Your experience in and out of Dharma communities. So you were talking about the beloved EBMC. No, someone else can. Right. I'm thinking someone else can. Yeah, I'm very briefly going to say I love what JD said. And if you are willing to bust out of the box or really look in and be deeper, be more honest with what's coming up for you, how you see yourself, how you experience life, the people will come. The Sangha will show up. So like one of the reasons we have challenges getting out of the social constructs is we don't want to be eliminated from the tribe. You will meet a tribe. A tribe will come to meet you where you're at.

[71:52]

I just wanted to throw that out. Jane, are you interested in speaking to that? Or Bree? Question number two. What is your experience in and out of Dharma communities as a trans or beyond the binary person? Um... I feel like a lot of my experience in the Dharma community has been very supportive, even, and, you know, I will note that I think something that is common both in and out of Dharma communities is I feel like I often am the only trans woman in the room. It's just something I've experienced, even when I show up to, like, the East Bay Meditation Center's Alphabet Sangha. I find that is often the case. I've gone even to some trans like sits where maybe other than like a teacher, I'm like the only student showing up from that particular gender identity.

[73:02]

So there is that part, which can be a little bit lonely, but mainly in Dharma community, I think you get a general toolbox and you know different parts of the Dharma are going to resonate with each person differently but in a friendly affirming environment where you can walk in with an assumption that people are going to be more accepting you know tools like mindfulness tools like loving kindness tools like Dharma teaching all can be incredibly helpful and in that sense it feels like a community that's very rooted in in looking at and addressing suffering because it is, which is a very unique experience versus many of the spaces I interact with in the day-to-day world. I feel very fortunate that I've always been accepted in the Dharma communities where I am not just accepted but welcomed and encouraged.

[74:04]

That said, I'm pretty invisible. Most people wouldn't know that I'm trans unless I spoke it. So it's easy for me to just disappear. It's not particularly a primary identity for me, even though it's obviously a major part of my life. So the good fortune that I have is being welcomed and encouraged and supported always in every direction, including by my root teacher eventually. And then every once in a while, something will come up, like I mentioned in the Dharma talk this morning. It will just come out of the blue. And when somebody asks me a question, for example, are you trans? Where did that come from? You know, who spoke to you about my life? And so if there's anything that you can use to take away from this particular experience is don't talk about people. You know, if people have a question,

[75:07]

ask them to talk directly to the person that they're questioning about. Anyway, the gossip thing eventually is eroding and hurtful, painful. So I wanted to speak a little bit to outside of the Dharma community. I work, as I said, in elementary education, and I get ladied all the time, all the time. It's always about ladies this, ladies that. And so it is not... not a comfortable place. You know, opening up the question, and we actually, there have recently been some state rulings that talk about the need for trans education, K-12, and so there's always a little bit of lag time between when things happen and how they get implemented. And currently the implementation, seventh grade and up, is a lot more active than in elementary school.

[76:08]

And that's not to say that there aren't kids whose lives depend on it. But the conversation is not happening in my workplace unless I bring it up. And that's hard. I worked in schools where people never asked me about my life outside of school because of the fear of what they may or may not hear. And so, whereas somebody else who lives in a more heteronormative way can easily say on the weekends what they did or to their students. And so... I just want to remind you that that is still the world out there. And, um, so I am super grateful when, you know, you go someplace and the smallest gesture of like, let's introduce our pronouns and our pronouns going to be the end of the change the world. No, but it's, it's, it's allowing us to say our assumptions may not be correct.

[77:10]

And so, um, that's part of like the process of meeting each, um, place where it's at and seeing, you know, bringing the conversation in or appreciating people who reach out and recognizing our resources of how much we can be there. I'm going to see if anyone else who hasn't asked a question would like to ask a question. Hi, my name is Allison. I'm a woman who shaves my head so I get served a lot. I was hoping that each of you, if you could make a really practical way that you think residential Dharma communities can be more welcoming to trans people and gender non-conforming people.

[78:11]

Ask them what they need when they come. That might be just step one, and that might solve it all. And, of course, having your... I think David has some maybe from training copies of the training. So this center has tools around language and around just showing different identities. And then I love what J.G. just said about how about if... People in the audience identified other than binary, and I don't know how often they get to come out about it or if they're respected for it. If we just default to she, even though they also go by they. So there's a consciousness around it. And I think this is why we're here, because David and Tova are committed to... I mean, this is my third time here, right? Something like that? Yeah. So they're committed to... having this be a welcoming and kind space. And, you know, I just want to say that I knew a woman who lived here for a while who absolutely loved it.

[79:25]

And I know a guy who had a hard time. So some of it's going to be about the people, but how you hold, holding everybody equally is what's going to make the difference. In a residential place, as is true in public school, Part of it ends up being about bathrooms and bathing. Partly it is who's going to be your roommate. So my suggestion is if you can have the conversation be more than about body parts, that's the starting place. Let the individual say what they need and then find people as their roommate, for example, who are welcoming and inclusive. Let's have it be more than about body parts. Also just however you can creating space for gender self-determination when it comes for where

[80:35]

people determining where they get to sleep, where they get to do those things, and to the extent they can be gender neutral, that's helpful, I think. And just really encouraging to create that space early on and not retroactively after something's gone wrong, because by that point, you could have very easily lost someone's trust by the time you send them to a wrong dormitory or a wrong bathroom. You know, I think that kind of can easily set the expectation for them. I'd like to interject something here. I was just processing applications for the fall practice period at Green Gulch Farm, which is an eight-week residential practice period. And there is a question about what is your preference for a roommate, because a lot of people share rooms. And they gave the option, prefer to room with a woman, prefer to be with a man. prefer to be with either gender or no preference at all.

[81:42]

So the last two, that doesn't sound like they're different. But anyway, there was the option of saying either gender or what gender you prefer. And everybody was asked that question. So I think that is one way we are changing in terms of thinking about what might be welcoming. And one very small nuance to that would be instead of either, any. Any? Oh right, of course. Yeah, any, thank you. Yeah, I think when it comes to centers, there's also you know, there's limited amount of space and where do we put people? And so sometimes people get caught up in those questions more than kind of like, what's it gonna feel like?

[82:48]

You know, when you get the, like there have been trans people I know who have gone to centers and they'll be like, well, can you just give me one gender? I need to figure out which room I'm gonna put you in. You know, are you gonna be on this floor or this floor? You know, and some people don't get those questions when they go to retreat. And then how are you going to feel if you go to that retreat? Are you going to feel like you can actually show up? And so, you know, here there's no gender on the bathrooms and that's a real wonderful, accessible way. And also I just, in the Theravadan tradition, which I practice in, I can't ordain. I have, there's two choices. You ordain as a woman, you ordain as a man. And there's actually within the ordination ritual itself, a check, a physical body check. And yeah, if you, yeah.

[83:54]

So anyways, it just, I mean, just thinking about the Zen tradition, there's, there are, anyways, I wouldn't get into it, but thank you Zen people, you know, way to go. I don't have a question, but I wanted to speak to this topic as a long-term Zen practitioner who spent some time at Tassahara recently, which is, if you don't know, a Zen Center's monastery. And I went to check in, and I talked to the woman who's a student. And I said, well, you know, I've been there before, and they have sex-segregated bathing facilities. And... And I said, well, you know, what should I do? I have a body that's both male and female. And they tried to be very helpful. They really did their best. You can go wherever you want.

[84:56]

And I was like, okay, well, that's nice. Thank you. It's also guest season, so it's not just practitioners who are here. It's people from the public. There could be issues, either one. And I did get this experience of like, well, which one is it? Which one is it? And there are other options where we can close the bathhouse and you can go alone, which is kind of intense, right? But it was, there was these structural constraints, right? Like those were the facilities they had, but they didn't have an idea about how they were going to negotiate that space. And it was very challenging, you know? And I don't necessarily blame them, but it really showed that there was more work to be done in a community that's given me so much. And it was, I had gone alone, so it was like a lot to hold.

[85:56]

alone at that time. But they really tried and I appreciated that and it uncovered that there was a little more to do. I had an honor, it was an honor to spend time with some nuns who were supporting a friend who was dying and just the idea that I could only be with two, like it could never be with one nun alone. And we also talked about how even the nuns never see each other naked. And so, you know, we have our society, this puritanical society, and then we have our religions of, you know, crosses all the borders. And this way that we still insist that the body is a sexual object so that it can't be exposed to And I'm hoping that some of this works helps us to... At some point, we have to see each other as human beings.

[87:05]

And I'm hoping that this work helps people like the person who just spoke and many others, supposedly 3.5 to 4.5% of our society are intersex to some degree. So how do we... get past the conditions. And I think it's the work that we can only practice ourselves individually in order to make the change happen. Yeah, I want to support what you're saying. And I really want to honor what you shared. And since you're within this community, I can see what a risk that is to name that. And because oftentimes what what then happens is that the person who names it, rather than being like, oh, thank you for naming it, we become a problem because, oh, do you want us to build another building here? Do you know how much that costs? You know, well, should we shut the whole thing down?

[88:08]

You know, the answers can sometimes just be like, wow, I wonder where that came from, you know, kind of thing. And so... those of you who are here and are asking these questions about being allies or bring up the question, you know, bring it up. Even if there's not a person or a body to go along with the question, let's, you know, kind of look at it and, and figure it out. And so, and it can be really lonely if you're the person bringing it up. And so, um, Then it also can be like that is who you are. Like I've had experiences bringing something up and then all of a sudden I am reduced to, you know, let me just ask you, you are only a gender. You are not a human. You're not a practitioner. You are, you know, the person who acts like that. So it's a both, Anne.

[89:08]

Check. Is it on? I just want to thank everybody on the panel for your generosity and presence today. And so my question is more about internalized oppression. I'm a person who, I'm sort of a little bit fluid along the gender spectrum, and I was a gender fluid child to some degree. And so without assuming what types of families or communities you grew up in, if anybody had the experience of You know, as a child being sort of very strongly gender instructed, gender policed, gender controlled, there's a, I'm wondering about how your practice today helps you or addresses any type of internalized oppression that might or might not be something that anyone deals with. Third question, how has Buddhist practice supported or hindered you in this exploration, which is partly about internalized oppression?

[90:28]

Thank you for that question. It was definitely an expectation that I would live as a girl. And it was policed and monitored, and I definitely internalized that. And on the other hand, I had an Italian grandmother I grew up here in San Francisco on Guerrero between 19th and 20th. And I had an Italian grandmother who was like, run, just run, play while you can, go. Baseball, good. No, just play, run. So my grandmother's voice lives in me as the one place in my early life where I had permission to just go. And in terms of the Dharma practice, part of that is that a willingness to feel the pain of having been squished, monitored, lopped off in many ways.

[91:31]

Feel that pain completely. And then it goes. And then some other little thing will trigger it. Oh, there it is again. Let it go. No, it doesn't... That suffering... of being made to conform doesn't end. And we have all, you've heard the expressions, we've all learned how to deal with it in a variety of ways. The one thing in the Dharma realm has been grandma's voice, yes, go, it's good. And as someone mentioned earlier, turn toward where it is working. If grandmother's voice is the one, that's the one I'm going to listen to rather than the collection of other negatron voices.

[92:36]

For me, the answer to this question so much is like loving kindness, loving kindness, loving kindness. Because internalized oppression is there. It's like really, really there. I think that's what suicidal ideation is. That's what so many other things are. Sometimes, you know... always remark sometimes the worst voices i encounter on the street are like they sound just like the voices in my head like just like the worst voices in my own head um and you know i think meta is really offered um an attitude that can be cultivated um And just an excellent practice of being able to say, hey, you know, mindfully I can acknowledge this is there. And it might be here for a while, but I can put it not being here on the map.

[93:41]

I can put may I be happy, may I be safe and protected from harm. All of those things I can put there. And, you know, I'm not going to fault myself. For that internalized oppression, I didn't place it there. It's there now, but with the practice of metta, I can help work through it and just practice alternatives, saying alternative things to myself. When the monkey mind comes up with, you know, you'll always be this way. Who are you kidding? This or that. I can say to myself, may I be happy, may I be safe and protected from harm, so on and so forth. Yes, yes, what both of you are saying. And I think one of the challenging things in understanding our

[94:49]

for me and understanding myself is believing, believing in, you know, my own truth, because there are so many voices who have, that have told me otherwise. And, um, you know, I work with, as I mentioned, I work with kids and, you know, as a kid, I always felt like there was this box that I was, you know, like they are. like physically people were trying to lop off, you know, I was supposed to be fit in this little square and I never did. And that's what I internalized that, you know, I am not supposed to be here. That, you know, I cannot show up as I am. I will be, you know, curtailed, censored. And that's hard to, that's hard to live with. And one of the most beautiful responses I had And I share this because I think most people feel that. I mean, a lot of the youth that I work with, no matter where they fall as human beings, that somehow they feel like they're not supposed to be the way they are. They're trying to be like something, like someone.

[95:51]

And so I was working with a group of children up at... spirit rock and shared that story because we were having experiences around people not necessarily accepting others. And so I shared that and one of the kids came up and he said to me, he said, I know what kind of, you know, like the peg, the round peg in the square hole, which is, or the square peg in the round, right? Whatever, one of those, right? And I was making that example and they said, and he said to me, he said, I know why you needed a heart-shaped hole. And you know, Is that not right? Isn't that what we all need? Like, we need that heart-shaped hole. And I was just like, oh, and I started crying. And of course the kid, you know, being the mischievous kid that he was, told his mother, I made my teacher cry, you know. But, you know, we need that heart-shaped hole, you know, and we have to begin to give that to ourselves first. And that's kind of where this practice comes in. And we can, like, you know, just as we...

[96:55]

I felt shame in something that was and I was at a retreat and doing something and I felt that shame come up I was like fuck excuse me but you know like didn't I deal with this already you know what's going on but there it is again and you know it's a process and luckily we have these tools that we can work with so thank you yes yes yes And sharing with others. Sometimes there's one of my mentors, online mentors, is Les Brown. And he says, sometimes we have to believe in what others believe or see in ourselves before we can even believe it. And that was at a time when I was learning to be vulnerable. But I found that the more that I share my experience, the more I learn that other people are having the same experience. And sometimes I do need someone else to tell me I'm okay when there's nothing in my head that can agree.

[98:04]

So thank you for your question. And the meta practice is a powerful one. You don't have to do it in any regimented way. But if you can get it in your head, it will show up at surprising times. Just one last question, please, before we depart and go our separate ways. I just wanted to say that you knew this was going to be a hard road when you started, and that's not why you started, you know. So maybe in this day and age where people are becoming more and more enlightened, they will see the beauty of your path and the courage in your ways to stand up for who you are. And I think that the heterosexual role model thing is diseased. I don't think you are. I think they got it backwards or something. I think I just applaud that you stand up for who you are.

[99:05]

That's beautiful. Can you hear me? Okay. During the last education training that we had from two of you on transgender, gender non-conformity, this question had come up for me around our bathrooms. Our bathrooms down here are gender neutral, but the ones on the second and third floor, which residents primarily use, are not. I've just kind of been thinking about this during y'all's talking, and one of the cool things about the structure that we have in our bathrooms is that each shower stall is an individual stall, and each bathroom stall is an individual stall, and each sink is an individual.

[100:08]

The sinks don't have doors, but the toilets do, and The showers do. So, you know, like initially I was like, what do we, what if we change the names outside to like self-identified men or self-identified women? But what if we like just got rid of that label altogether? And it's, and then it kind of like brings up this question in me of like, whoa, what would it be like to see women in the bathroom or for maybe a woman? to see men in the bathroom. And that very question, I think, is like, if I can't be comfortable with that, it's like, I feel like that's some of the work that maybe we can do as, I don't know, cisgendered people, kind of get past some of that. I'm just talking out loud right now.

[101:10]

And, yeah, like, and then maybe we can, like, that work that we can do can help us meet, you know, like, the larger community. Yeah, I mean, I'm throwing this out there, it's like, it's something that I would like to maybe work on with other people that are interested if we could maybe pitch this to leadership here. So thank you. And I remember that question came up, right? And it's sort of like obviously an internal question, nothing that I or Adrian could respond to. Last night I was on a date with someone I've been seeing for a while. And we went down. I live by Lake Merritt, which I go there at night. And... when we had a little ice cream we shared, and then she was really, and we talked a little bit about how she doesn't walk around the lake, and I talked about how I walk around the lake, and we saw other people going by the lake.

[102:21]

And then when we finished the ice cream, it was like really urgent for her to leave, and I didn't get it. You know, I'm like, where are you going, where are you running off to? And what happened for me in the moment was that... either in my masculine female self or certainly in this body, I don't have the same types of fear. And I think the challenge I would like to bring is how, as masculine presenting and identified people, do we create some kind of safe space for women who are... Because even in that masculine body, I was babied on the street and had all kinds of misogynist things thrown my way. So how, as masculine-identified people, do we take the responsibility in masculine-bodied people to ensure that women, in the best ways that we can, because manipulation has already happened, how do we create that space?

[103:25]

And so I love your question and I love your comment because it is starting with you. And how do you not see a woman half naked in the bathroom and not have it sexualized in a society that insists that that's what it's supposed to be? So my thing would be maybe it starts with a men's masculine-identified conversation about what comes up and how other men manage their delusions of libidos. when they see naked bodies, and that's not necessarily something that women don't have to do, right? Because it does go both ways, it's just that there's a power and physical dynamic that makes it much more dangerous for the other. Is that helpful? Yeah, thank you. Yeah, just thanks for naming that, because...

[104:26]

there's a lot of privilege, I am a man, and I'm bringing up the suggestion, and so it's like, it's different, and I, yeah, I need to acknowledge that. Yeah. Question, if there is one. Perhaps someone who hasn't asked one yet. I kind of, maybe this is sort of a wrap-up question, but since we're leaving this space, we created this one-rule space, and you're, Sorry, microphone. And I guess you've all offered yourself as educators, but there's plenty of times when I'm with trans friends or in trans spaces where I just have to recognize that you just don't necessarily want to talk about your trans experience. And in some ways, I guess... what is the way to have that conversation, you know, that where I feel like I'm being respectful of, you know, trans and, you know, gender non-conforming, not non-binary people, you know, it's like, I guess it's, I don't know, maybe it's like time and place.

[105:43]

What do you think of that idea, like, that because of the, you know, sort of the weight sometimes of oppression, you just don't want to talk about difficult things, right? Is that, you know, you think sometimes the best approach in terms of being an ally or sometimes maybe silence not helpful? I have a few thoughts on that. One. Asking for permission before engaging in a line of questioning is nice because it lets people say yes or no to whether or not they want to be having that conversation right now. And then another thing that I'd really encourage everyone to think about is When we're thinking about gender, are we talking, learning from trans people just when we are in the rooms with you? Or which trans authors are you reading?

[106:46]

What trans thinkers are you reading? And that has an extra element of... supporting those people who are choosing to make that their career and try to get a meagerly hood off of writing trans perspectives and experiences. And, you know, there's so many resources out there that, you know, I think people are great to talk to, and so many of us are verbal learners. I know I like personal interaction, but there's also so much written by trans people about multiple trans experiences that is readily available these days, which is a miracle in and of itself. I think another element for me is this. Even though this is all I've talked about today, this is not all I think about. Ask me, what are you building?

[107:51]

What are you sewing? What are you reading right now? Let's have a normal conversation that's just about what we're doing. And similar to Brie, ask permission if you want to ask a trans-related question, and then be ready to share something about your own body, your own process, how's your relationship to your own gender expression. Anyone else? I'd just like to mention that I found a book in a bookstore in Seattle last week. It's called Trans Ally Workbook. Getting Pronouns Right and What It Teaches Us About Gender by Davey Schlasko, who I met. He used to live in San Francisco. He is a transgender educator. It's short and succinct and really helpful, and I'm thinking maybe we can find a way to share some resources.

[108:57]

with this group. We don't have your email addresses, we didn't ask you to sign in, so I don't know how we do that, or maybe we just find a place to put it on our website, on the Queer Dharma page, perhaps. Because I agree with Bree, there are many resources and many ways we can increase our understanding of trans people, so that trans and non-gender binary people, so that we can be more at ease and more accepting, inclusive and aware and not ask you to provide all the information that we are curious about so I think find some ways to educate ourselves and I really appreciate everyone who came today so we are coming to our last 15 minutes and we have one more question for the panel and then just a few closing things so I'll ask our last question and that is what support do you need from your Dharma teachers and communities?

[110:15]

What would be helpful to you? Who would like to go first? As I mentioned earlier after the Dharma talk, please do not refer to me as the trans-Dharma teacher. I'm just a Dharma teacher. This is part of my life. And the other thing for a community to hold in general, Catherine used to say it this way, even while our habitual experiences clinging may become stronger. Wisdom is arriving. So the encouragement to allow the arrival of wisdom to take its time and the clinging itself falls off when the power of the wisdom is allowed to arrive fully.

[111:23]

Give it time. What I would say about the support that I need from Dharma teachers and communities is to encourage all of us to put ourselves in positions of discomfort, of disorientation. So if we find ourselves in a place that we're always comfortable, then when something causes us discomfort, It can be larger. And here in San Francisco, there's so many different communities that we may not be familiar with in Chinatown. And I don't know San Francisco that well. But, you know, there's just a lot of communities, I can tell you, in Oakland. So you can come across the Bay. But just there's a lot of opportunities for us to turn our own assumptions on that.

[112:30]

on their heads. And so whatever experiences we can have to do that can help us reorient ourselves in ways to others who may not fit into the confines that we, the assumptions that we have culturally grown up with. And so I also really know that a lot of times in Dharma communities, the sense of peace and calm can translate into no conflict. And that could actually be conflict avoidance, spiritual bypass, and that those who speak up are seen as like, you haven't dealt with that yet? Can't you just be calm? And so I would encourage us to be in dialogue and discussion and to be open to hearing different perspectives so that we can engage in those rather than avoid them and be in our ignorance that we are calm and have reached some state of transcendence of that.

[113:40]

these bodies. So I would just ask us to pause and re-engage in that question of like, am I avoiding something? Is there something I'm ignorant of? How am I deluded? I ask myself those questions all the time. So that's a great practice. And just the last thing I would say is the difference between an invitation to come and a welcome. So like, you know, just like I'm going to invite you, but then when you get here, you know, what happens? So thank you. I want to start by saying I hope I didn't offend you with my example. Yeah, I just want to say that I wasn't trying to compare if it sounded like that, but get to a bigger talk around bodies. And thanks again for bringing up what you brought up. What was the question?

[114:41]

You know, what came up for me was everything that has been said already and also a curiosity versus trying to think that you have to have the answer. And then a curiosity and having that not all fall on me, but actually doing some of the work that Bree talked about, that Tova talked about, looking for opportunities to learn more about whatever the topic or situation is. self-compassion is important whether it's teacher or community understanding that you are following or living under the conditions that were created that they were all diluted by and once you can practice self-compassion I believe makes it even easier for you to open up and look at more opportunities because it's not for you to beat yourself up because you don't know something so that's the little bit I want to share um Yes to what everyone has said so far. And, you know, I think in the moment, being supportive is always nice, trying to do that in a way that isn't.

[115:54]

I find sometimes when I walk into a room, people give me like a special smile, like they're going to be like extra nice to me or something, which is certainly better than alternatives, but still. still kind of othering, right? I wish I could, I don't know. It's a little forced is what I will tell you about that smile. I'm not sure if any of you have encountered it before. And I think it really goes back to, like, these are open questions, and there are things to look at, even when a trans person is not in the room, you know, or even if you don't think a trans person is in the room, you aren't always going to be able to tell, and sometimes you're going to think wrong if you... And, yeah, you know, Take that as part of your practice.

[116:55]

Take looking at your own gendered identity or experience, because even if you are cis, you have one, as part of your practice and make sure that that is ongoing work and that you're doing what you can so when you enter into these conversations as much as possible, you aren't starting from nowhere because while You know, we all start from somewhere, and many of us start from nowhere. The better prepared you are for those conversations, the more supportive and thus, for lack of a better word, burdensome they are likely to be. So I do want to thank you all for being here today and sharing your experience and your wisdom with everyone and your heart and your humor. and also what's been hard for you.

[117:56]

I want to thank David for helping to, actually doing so many of the logistics that enabled us all to be here today, and Marcus for doing the sound. It was great to be able to hear everybody and every question. And I want to thank all of you for being here, coming, bringing your questions, bringing your interest, your openness to learning. This is the first time we've had a panel of this kind at Zen Center and I feel very grateful for Zen Center for supporting us to do it and I hope it's not the last. And I want to invite everyone to stay if you can for delicious cookies and some non-cookie treat and tea and to ask JD then to do a excuse me oh thank you there's something I forgot which is that we have a Donna basket if any of you would like to contribute to cover some of the costs of the day that would be great there's a basket in the back

[119:19]

I think it's labeled, Donna. And that would be very helpful. So again, thank you for coming and JD is gonna do a closing. Knowing how deeply our lives intertwine we take this opportunity to reflect on our time together, our intentions to create a world of beauty, truth, celebration for all beings. May we offer any merit from our time together. May it spread in all directions, and unceasing ripples to transform the hatred, to transform the aversion, to transform the confusion and delusion so that we may all live in a society where freedom

[120:48]

for all beings as possible. We offer this merit to all beings everywhere. May all beings be free from suffering. Do you want to say something? Just thank you again everyone for being here and We'll have tea and cookies in the back, and maybe we could rearrange the chairs to once again be with the tables before we all leave at some point. Thank you. Thank you again, panelists. And Tova. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[121:53]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[122:06]

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