Great. So my name is Tim Wicks, and I'm a priest here at City Center. And this is, what's your name? Kim Kogan Daiho Hart, Kim. And I am no longer resident here, but I was resident here for a number of years, so now I live across the street. And this is? I'm Dan Gojul. I'm also a resident priest here at San Francisco Zen Center in this very temple. Great. I want to welcome everyone who's joining us online. Thank you very much for joining us. This is a brand new thing to do. Mako Vogel, the abbot of City Center, wanted several months ago to have something that she called a salon. Is that being too loud? Yeah. Tabriz, could you turn us down just a little bit? We're getting a little... It's ringing a little bit, just on the edge of feedback.

[01:15]

And so this is a salon. Now, what is a salon? There's the beauty salon, of course, which is not what this is. This is not a beauty salon, although you're all very beautiful. A salon was something that started in the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, intellectuals and artists and philosophers would meet together and talk about ideas and oftentimes in the house of a leading socialite like Gertrude Stein. So this is sort of along those lines. Mostly what Marco wanted is to have some dialogue and to have interaction. So that's what it is that we're trying to do tonight. So we're sort of... developing this as we go. And yes. It's going to be quite informal. I'll give you a quick layout of how the evening is actually going to be structured. So five minutes for sort of house cleaning like what we're doing right now. Then for 10 minutes this evening for week one, Timbo and I will talk a little bit about the context and history around Busho.

[02:25]

And then there'll be just another 10 minutes where the three of us discuss how we discovered Dogen and sort of stuff like that. We will then pass it over to you guys where for 20 minutes, you'll get into kind of medium-sized groups, say six to eight people, probably three groups, I would say, for around 20 minutes, where you can just talk about busho, your understanding here, the prompts that we sent out. And you can also just reference those. And then for sort of the last 10 minutes, we'll come back and have a loose and open kind of popcorn-style discussion about Dogen's busho. please make sure that you have some tea. It's very important to Kim that we know how much tea we use this week so that we have enough next week. That's right. And if you need to get up and go to the restroom, please feel free to do that. So the idea is that this is casual. Okay. Just one piece that I'll add. We do have... you are able to sign up for this if you want to get emails or have sort of additional PDFs, readings, things like that sent to you.

[03:33]

It is not required. You're welcome to just show up and drop in and undoubtedly there will be people showing up and dropping in who are coming for what they think is the regularly scheduled Dharma talk. So we'll enfold those people as they arrive. But if you are interested in having a sort of online discussion area, getting PDFs, things like that. You can actually sign up through the website. If you go to our calendar and find any of the listings for this, the next four Wednesdays for this Busho discussion, you can sign up and get on the mailing list for that. And I've already sent out the readings, so each of us are gonna do specific readings each week. And so I've sent those out already, so if you wanna get those, Sign up for the class, it's free. Yeah. Okay. Yes, let's do it. Look, 734. It's perfect. Do you want to start or shall I?

[04:35]

You start. So Dogen, Ehe Dogen, was alive in the 13th century. He was born conveniently in what is for us the year 1200. and died in the year 1252. So you can sort of tell how old he is when each thing gets written as it's dated, and he was prolific, no question about it. But during the time that he was alive, it was called Mappo, or the time of degenerate Buddhism. So according to Buddhist studies, Writing the first either 500 or 1,000 years after the Buddha, depending on who it is that you read, is the time of true Dharma. Then the second 500 or 1,000 years is the time of imitation Dharma. And then the third, either 500 or 10,000 years, is the time of degenerate Dharma.

[05:44]

And there were a lot of people at the time of... Dogen, who really thought that it was the time of degenerate dharma. And there were a lot of catastrophes and wars, civil wars going on in Japan. There were a lot of difficulties, and a lot of people blamed it on the fact that it was the time of Mapo. What else was I going to say? Age of decline. The age of decline, yeah. I can take it from there. Go right ahead. Well, like Tim said, very conveniently, Dogen was born in 1200, so we were able to tell exactly how old he was when he came back from China. He was around 27 or 28 years old, so a young man. And I'm just going to outline what was happening at the time that he actually wrote Bushok. So he came back from China when he was around 28 years old. And a few years later, in 1231, he settled at a small monastery.

[06:46]

It was an abandoned monastery, an abandoned Tendai monastery. Its name is lost to time. But he settled in there, and he had a kind of a motley crew of students with him. One of whom was Eijo, who was his number one student and his predecessor. His successor, thank you, his successor. In the early years, while Dogen was at this particular temple that has not yet got a name, Eiji was writing down his lectures. He was giving talks, and he ended up compiling a bunch of those lectures into what was referred to as the Shobogenzu Zui Monkey. Now, this is not the Shobogenzu we're talking about here, which is the Kana Shobogenzu. But the Shobogenzu Zui Monkey is a wonderful little book, which is a compilation of Dogen's lectures and a bunch of question and answers with his students, too. And it's a little book about this big, and it's an absolute jewel, an absolute gem. He stayed at this temple and built the first sodo. So this was a monk's hall.

[07:46]

He built it in the Chinese style, which was the first time it had been done, brought it over from China, built it in the same style, which is still done today in Japan. These traditional style monk's halls or zendos were built according to the Chinese and the Chan style. And he then had the first Ango in about 1234. At this point, after the first Ango, the first practice period, he changed the name. It became named colloquially as Koshoji. It had a bit of a longer name, but it was known kind of as Koshoji. And as a result of having this first Tzodo, this monk's hall, he got a lot of wealthy benefactors who were delighted to see him pursuing this traditional Chinese Zen tradition. approach to Buddhism. And with that money, he built a hato, which is a lecture hall at Koshoji, at this temple. And it was in this lecture hall in 1241 that he gave the lecture that is busho on Buddha nature.

[08:51]

A couple of years later, he, together with this now expanded group of priests, monks, were obliged to leave. Now, we don't know exactly What happened? Some drama. It seems like it was under a bit of a cloud. From what I read, it seems like perhaps this monastery had originally been a Tendai monastery, and the Tendai folks were a bit annoyed that Nard was turning into a Zen one, and Dogen was treading on toes, and what have you. And so sort of under a cloud of unhappiness, they left and ended up establishing Aheji. They left in 1243 and headed off. So that's kind of the context of when Busho was written HO listening, you know. Is there anything you want to add to the historical context, Dan? It must have been a long lecture. Bouchot is a long fascicle. And so the idea of him actually reading this from the teaching seat has always kind of amazed me. It's actually his longest fascicle.

[09:55]

That he would read something so long that the monks would sit through it. I just... There's something about that kind of the actual physical image of him reading this out that makes it a little more personal for me somehow. And painful. And painful, yeah. I doubt they had the invitation to move and get a cup of tea. I would be interested back in those days if they read that. I doubt he read it. I imagine he was talking and somebody was furiously scribbling. And then they took the scribbles and they were like, okay, we've got to try and put this together in a fascicle. And then he wrote it down. Because I've been with a Zen master like that who talks and talks for hours. So Dogen was probably at that school. Okay. So obviously this first meeting is sort of background and to speak generally about Dogen. And then for the

[10:57]

three succeeding weeks. We're going to specifically, Dan's going to be next week, I believe. Next week is Kim. And then the following week is Dan. And then I've finished up. And we will give specific page numbers. So in the reading that I sent out, I falsely claimed that I sent out the entire show of Ogenza. I did not. I sent out the entire blue show, which I'm glad about because we have proprietary concerns about. just sending stuff around, entire works. So you all have, or those of you who signed up anyway, have the Bouchot, the fascicle, and then on Monday I will be sending out Bouchot. The page numbers. Actually, I should probably send it out on the weekend. I'll send it out on the weekend. And also just to say that we're actually all going to be working from three different translations, which just naturally were the ones we happened to have at home.

[12:02]

We just naturally had the three distinct ones, which was awesome. And what I've sent out is a comparative translation. So it has all three of the translations that we've used. And they're really well organized, so you can actually go back and forth and look at, see what exactly it is that was being said and translated. And there's some very interesting things going on that we'll talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Anything else on background, on history? We can talk about how each of us personally kind of discovered Dogen, right? Yeah, let's do that. I can't remember. It seems like Dogen just sort of grew out of my practice. I don't remember being introduced to Dogen and thinking anything specific. It just totally made sense that someone as incomprehensible and difficult would be sort of a really major writer.

[13:13]

in this wacky school that I was fascinated with. It didn't make much sense to me at first, but I knew there was something really heavy there that I wanted to find out about. You would understand it. My time with Dogen was, the first time I discovered Dogen was in the, what do we call them, the noughties? I don't know, 2006, 2004. The arts. [...] And I was training in Italy at Fudengi, and they were studying the Schobogenzo in Italian. And as you can tell, Italian is not my first language. And I was really struggling. And if you think Schobogenzo is difficult in English, you should try it in the second language. And that was when I was like, OK, look, I can't understand this at all. I want to get the English version. That's, of course, when I realized, OK, so what's the English version? And they're like, wow. There's a lot of translations. So I got hold of the Nishijima cross one, which is the one I still reference today, and we started reading that.

[14:18]

And I was like, okay, so it's not actually easier in English. It's just as impenetrable. But, like, brilliant. Because I realized that if I spent enough time on any one of the sentences, something grew out of it. And this is one of the things I really appreciate about Dogen. It seems like, much like a koan, and I think this is actually... the default assumption, Dogen, the difficult one to read. And I think that has often been my experience, but I think it feels really apparent to me that Dogen is actually sort of coming from a place of this kind of very mystical, personal, direct experience. This sort of awakening moment and of living into that and it so happens that he was very literary and seems to have loved words and had a mind to do things with words that other people weren't doing and so that is kind of how we come to him but it really does feel to me like there's this sort of mystical layer underneath which i think is for me is what comes out

[15:32]

When I read a little bit faster, when I don't get too hung up on every footnote, and when I notice that there's almost always like a couple of phrases that will sort of stay with me. You know, 95% of something I read from Dogen may not really kind of stay in my mind, but there'll be a sentence or two that kind of keep coming back to me and do start to sort of expand into something bigger. For myself, that kind of... I think I heard you say this the other day, Lectio Divinia. That wasn't me. I wish it was. Delicious. But as a method of reading, reading Dogen as a devotional practice not so hung up on understanding the words, I think has really... What is it again?

[16:33]

Lectio Divinia. Lectio Divinia. I love it. Am I getting it right? Yes. Great. Divina. Excellent. Beautiful. Beautiful. And I think also just to say that for me it seems like Suzuki Roshi mostly was teaching Dogen without using Dogen's name. The more I kind of read and reread Suzuki Roshi's writings and lectures and even in ones where he doesn't mention Dogen, I think he's kind of unpacking Dogen for us. Just without saying Dogen's name so we didn't feel too scared about it. And that's what Kaz Tanahashi has said on more than one occasion. Suzuki Roshi's teaching is all Dogen. One of the things I thought was interesting and I only realized it through reading Bouchot, but it was actually, it was kind of a controversial lecture that he gave because he was just turning Buddhism and the way Buddha nature was understood up until that point on its head.

[17:44]

Because for the previous 1,000 years, there had been a notion that there was kind of a kernel inside of us, that through practice, we can perfect life. And we can realize, we can become these kind of Buddhas, and we can become enlightened beings. If we practice hard enough, we can take this kind of seed, water it, and become enlightened. And Dogen was saying, nope, that is a misunderstanding. Because what Buddha nature actually is, is to awaken to the reality of the fact that the self is empty of any kind of inherent or independent nature, and that it is impermanent, and that That is the Buddha nature, not some idea to remake ourselves as people into enlightened beings through a sheer force of will over thousands of lifetimes. There is a lot of writing that says Buddha nature is permanent.

[18:46]

Permanent? Yes. Well, I would say that the Buddha says nothing's permanent, so there we go. Well, this is... A major debate that's been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years. And I think Phil is, right? We'll talk more about that, yeah. We'll talk more about it. In fact, it's one of the things, I don't even think we mentioned this here, but it is one of the things that you can talk about. Is Buddha nature something that we have inside of us that can be then like polished and turned into something like an enlightened being? Or is it actually the expression of being, the very nature of emptiness and being? And of course, that's where Dogen lands. I land there as well. And I think it's interesting. We talk about Suzuki Roshi talking about Dogen. But basically, they're both talking about the nature of truth and understanding the nature of reality, because they both see it the same way. Looking forward to chatting to you about this, Vicky. So we've got three minutes to talk about what is the relevance of Dogen. The relevance of Dogen. Well, we are a very, very niche religion.

[19:49]

For me, I find Dogen extraordinarily relevant because he points me... He points me the way we talk about a finger pointing to the moon. He points me towards this nature of truth. And he gives me stuff to really get my teeth into and to think about and to consider. And I find that extraordinarily relevant doesn't matter if we're in the 1200s or if we're in 2024. For me, it's indispensable. What do you think there? Yeah, I think the... The sort of core of the understanding that I think Dogen is trying to help me come to is really about everyday life. It's really about how I experience my life in the present moment as I live it. So it feels to me very relevant in as much as a number of times

[20:50]

Dogen has changed my life, has changed my understanding of what my life is and what it means to be actively participating in my life. And I think Dogen is also kind of, though we are a pretty niche group, Dogen's kind of philosophical way of thinking is a little more widely out there. I actually... I was years into practice before I actually put two and two together and realized this, but my freshman year of college, 28, 29 years ago, I took a philosophy of religion course in a little college in Ohio, and we studied some portion of Dogat. I think something from... being time, I think. And it was the first thing that opened my eyes.

[21:52]

I thought, oh, there's something in this Zen thing that makes more sense to me than other things. But boy, it's really confusing. So even in larger philosophical circles, people are, I think, starting to realize that Dogen is actually talking about our real experience. Yeah, we have Genzo-E retreats with Shohaku Okamura and now other people that are always sold out. There's quite a few people here tonight. What's a Genzo-E retreat? Genzo-E retreat is the retreat where I've been to Shohaku Okamura's where it's unbelievable how hard it is Shohaku Okamura works to translate Dogen's writings. It's exhausting, actually, watching him because he works so hard, and it's beautiful.

[22:52]

Word by word. Word by word, yeah. Highly recommended. Yeah. Again, Zoe Retreat. Okay. Okay, 7.55. So what we're going to do now is pretty much break into medium-sized groups. So we're thinking like... No small groups. Don't worry. No small groups, just medium-sized groups, like five or six or seven. If you feel like you need a chair, feel free to just join a group in the sunroom, which is the room at the back. There's like sofas there. You can go sit there. Otherwise, just make kind of a medium-sized group in the front. You can replenish your tea if you like. And this is just an informal way. If you find you don't have a group, come and hang out with us. And we're just going to chat. Here's some prompts. And you guys can have a talk about what Boucho is. What do you want to get out of this class? What brought you to this class? Because like I said, this is niche stuff. And what is your understanding of Buxol? Perhaps you can talk about the nature, the question of Buddha nature that I raised earlier, and even how you feel about Dogen. All right. So you can just kind of start talking.

[23:53]

Put your hand up. Oh, so the microphone... Even if you can project very well for people in the room, the microphone allows people online to hear questions. Well, it's questions, but also just saying... Questions, comments. Yeah, like what you thought and found or what you thought was interesting. There you go, there's Raven. You're going to go, Danny? You can just pass it along to the next from there. One idea that came up in this group, I was thinking about how... Dogen is such an intellectual, right? There's this really rich life of the mind and of scholarship, this tradition. And also Soto Zen, I've always been taught, is, you know, we call it farmer Zen, right? Like this is also a tradition in which you do not need to be grounded in... the intellectual in a life of study in order to awaken completely in this tradition.

[25:00]

And I don't think that there's attention there, but there's part of me that thinks like, is there attention there? And I think it's a nice way to think about context for like how to approach this study in a wholehearted way. And if any of you have any thoughts or reflections on that, I'd certainly be interested to hear. Well, I certainly do. I find that Dogen is like a friend who is guiding me. I don't necessarily see him as somebody to study for his own sake so that I can know about what Dogen thinks, but he's actually showing me the way in this very complex, linguistically complex way, very poetic way. But he's really just trying to show me the nature of reality. And there's nothing more farmer than that. He's like, come on, dig that earth. And he's doing it with his very particular style. So I feel, as you were saying, I don't think there's any kind of conflict there.

[26:03]

And I think there is a tendency to be tempted by the intellectualizing because it seems so dense and complex. But actually, it's more important to get underneath it. I don't think that Dogen really wants you to study Dogen necessarily. Yeah. Dogen wants you to sit Zazen. That's what's really, really important to Dogen. And in some ways, all of his writing is somehow talking about what that is and how it is that you do that in the best way. Anybody else have anything to ask or say? you. I guess when I, and I'm not well-read in Dogen, apparently no one is, but if I think about what I know from him, a lot of Taoism seems to kind of emanate through the side of being time and being immersed in there seems to kind of come through in the work, and I'm wondering if you can see that and your thought on that.

[27:26]

if historically, if you know whether there is a connection there. I'm not familiar with Taoism, so I don't know. Well, he went to China, and in China, Chan and Buddhism had merged with Taoism. And so the way is Taoist, and the way is Dogen. So I think that's... True in that there's a sort of an essential something in Taoism that there is in Buddha nature. But we have to be careful. To be careful. Anybody else on that point right there? It's a nice rich place. I think maybe there's a certain extent to which I think Dogen was kind of I think he would take any useful example. I think this is also maybe sort of broadly a sort of a Buddhist, something I see in the development of Buddhism as it has moved from country to country with, oh, this is coming from a Taoist source.

[28:43]

This is from a Chan source. This is from a, you know, sort of Theravadan source. If it was helpful in pointing people towards awakening, he would use it. And certainly I see a lot of Taoist influence in Zen as it passes through China. Anybody else? What came up for you? Yes, please. Could you use the microphone, please? It's right behind you. We spoke a lot about how poetry is a wonderful medium for experiencing something which is actually inexpressible through language. Yeah.

[29:45]

Great. Expressing through language there, which is inexpressible through language, which is what Dogen's doing, right? Sometimes his poems are really confusing. They are beautiful. David, all the way in the back. Can you hand the microphone back? Concert style. Thank you. So this brings up... something I get tangled in. So, Busceau or Dogen writes and uses language, but we're saying now that he's trying to express something that isn't language. I think, number one, for me, it's kind of a trick that's being played on me, on us, that is...

[30:51]

at least I fall into this thing is when I start using language I start using language and so it's I feel like I'm pulled into that trap and the other side of it too is that language is language no matter how you slice it so if he's trying to take us somewhere we still have to construct meaning out of that. It's never going to be the experience. So I have to construct that experience out of my conceptualization of what he's putting forward. So I don't know, I guess I don't see a way around it in a way. See a way around what? Using language and getting into an idea of something. Yeah, we're going to talk about that, about how it is that you talk about these things. How we talk about it and maybe how we get around it. One of the most useful expressions I heard once, which is directly related to what you're talking about, is that the map is not the territory.

[31:59]

And we need the map, and the map is the language, and the territory is the territory, and we need the map to help us... can sometimes guide us towards the territory, but the territory is experiential. And the two don't meet. They don't meet. So it's up to us to do our homework to learn how to get into experiencing and not to fall into the trap of the seduction of language. Because it really settles us well into the world of the relative, and we're very familiar with it, and we like using it. And so we've got to be our own sort of, you know, open the gates to the prison, you know, and let ourselves out. And I think it's also... I see myself do this sometimes, to be really dismissive of language and the human experience. But language and our human experience is included in ultimate reality. So, you know, our language maybe doesn't express the fundamental truth, but it's also not separate from it in some way.

[33:03]

So to, you know, have a healthy respect for language at the same time that I recognize its limitations I think is helpful. Oh, this is going to be fun. Okay, that's the only time we have. All right.

[33:17]

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