Good evening. A lot of people here tonight. Well, this weekend, a group of us have been having a workshop, I guess you'd call it, on our abbot. Steve and I, Myogen, and I have been leading this workshop in teachings of Suzuki Roshi, who was the founder of Zen Center. I studied with Suzuki Roshi for seven years, from 1964 to 1971 when he died. So... I have some experience of Suzuki Roshi and his teaching and his life.

[01:02]

And tonight I have a talk of his that I want to comment on. We'll name this talk Don Rice is Just Right. Suzuki Roshi often would give a talk about something that was just at hand. And he would often talk about some mundane, usual occurrence or something that we ate to...

[02:06]

express the Dharma so he was very good at just using whatever came by and using it to express the Dharma when we were talking today or yesterday the name of our class was the most important teachings of Suzuki Roshi but there is no unimportant teaching of Suzuki Roshi or no less important teaching Anywhere you point, the teaching goes to the essence. So if I open the book at random, I can just start reading, and it opens the door to the Dharma. It goes back to the essence, wherever I pick up the book. And I've done that at random. What should I talk about? Oh, yeah. There it is. So... When Suzuki Rishi came to Zen Center at the Tassahara in the 60s, Tassahara was founded in 1967 as the Zen Center.

[03:18]

We had various food fads. They're not exactly fads, but people were very serious about what kind of food we were eating. Here we were 30 miles or more from the grocery store and nobody was going in and out. So we had to make a diet, create a diet that would people from all over the world or all over the country from different backgrounds could eat and maintain health and not get sick and feel satisfied. That was the beginning of the Zen Center bread book, Zen Center cookbook, and all those cookbooks that have come out of Zen Center. Started right here at Tassajara as the kernel.

[04:22]

So there were the macrobiotics, the mucusless diet people, the brine rice people, whole wheat people, the no wheat people. Anyway, you get the picture. And all these people were trying to introduce their own ideas. But it was very dynamic. Sometimes there were people who were so macrobiotic and whole wheat that they would make whole wheat cookies that were like still bread. But there was a lot of experimentation going on. So Suzuki Roshi came from a culture of white rice. We have a wheat culture. He had a rice culture. And not a brown rice culture, but a white rice culture. And most people at Tazahara at that time were really into brown rice.

[05:30]

Microbiotics was a big... And infobiotics was a kind of eating disorder. Based on bone rice and various reasons for eating certain things, which had its points, had its good points, but it was not good for most people. It was taken to an extreme that didn't work. even though it had its good points. I remember one time, during Thanksgiving, we would look around for stuff for Thanksgiving dinner that was vegetarian. And somebody knew how to make acorn bread, Indian acorn bread. So we'd go out to White Oak Flats and collect acorns and soak them and leaps them. But it turned out the bread was really good.

[06:34]

So we had that kind of attitude at that time. So diet was very important. There were times when we were snowed in, didn't have any food. I don't say we didn't have any food. That's not true. We had food. But we hadn't prepared for being snowed in. It was the summer of 69. And there was five feet of snow on the ridge, on the road. And cars couldn't come in and go out. They tried to bring stuff in by horses, and the horses couldn't make it. So we had brown rice and wheat berries. And then we would go to the flats and pick wild vegetables. It's very interesting. There are lots of wild vegetables out there that are edible, but we just think of them as weeds.

[07:38]

Not only were they wild vegetables, they were far more nourishing than cultured vegetables because they had that wild culture, that wild vitality to them. And so we made wonderful salads. Of course, they were limited, too, as we would pick them. But nevertheless, we did get through that winter. But it was brown rice, mostly, and wheat berries. And we had a cesspool at the end of the, down by where the barn is. And one time, all the toilets started getting clogged up. So we sent somebody down to the cesspool to see what was going on down there. And when they uncovered it, guess what?

[08:42]

Wheat berries. So Suzuki was used to eating white rice, but he ate brown rice. Now you may think that's not much of a switch, but it was a big switch for him. His health wasn't that good, his stomach was not that good, and he had false teeth. So it was really hard to chew brown rice. but he's talking about chewing brown rice. This shows his integrity. The one thing people really admired about Zen Center when Suzuki Hiroshi was here was his integrity. I think that was, for me, that was the number one word for his practice and for Zen Center because his practice permeated Zen Center and all the students were permeated with his practice.

[09:56]

So people very much trusted and loved Zen Center because of Suzuki Roshi's integrity. So this is his talk. He says, how do you like Zazen? I think it may be better to talk about how you like Zazen. Zazen is too big a topic. Brown rice is just right. actually there's not much difference between brown rice and Zazen bringing these two things together and bringing our spiritual practice and our eating practice together not much difference between the two when you eat brown rice you have to chew it and once you chew it

[10:59]

it is difficult to swallow. When you chew it very well, your mouth becomes part of the kitchen. A little clumsy way of speaking, but I'll explain that. And actually, the brine rice becomes more and more tasty. When we eat with burnt rice, we won't chew it so much, but that little bit of chewing feels so good that naturally the rice goes right down our throat. So he's talking about you really have to chew brown rice. The nice thing about brown rice is you have to chew it. And when you chew it, the flavor comes out. When you chew white rice, it's easy. You know, then it goes down. That's nice. People like that. But actually, if you take the time to chew brown rice, it's far more flavorful. And you get the rich flavor of the rice. But you have to chew it more.

[12:00]

So what he's really talking about is practice. Brown rice is like zazen, or like practice. In order to get the flavor of practice, you have to chew it. In order to get the flavor of practice, you have to do it. You have to chew. You have to do it over and over and over again. And just keep chewing your practice until the flavor comes out. Say, ah, now I understand what practice really is. And it's nourishing. Practice nourishes us when we take hold of it and do it over and over. And we say, the Dharma is transmitted through our pores. We absorb the Dharma through our pores. We also absorb it somewhat through our head, but mostly we absorb it through our pores.

[13:06]

And the way we absorb it through our pores is by totally engaging in practice over and over and over again, day by day, continuously, chewing it well and absorbing that flavor. So your mouth becomes part of the kitchen. there's a saying that a monk's mouth is like the oven. A monk's mouth is like an oven. Everything goes in and gets cooked. But everyone you take in gets cooked. And when it's cooked, it's nourishing. So, He says, when we digest food completely, what will become of it? He's still talking about the Dharma.

[14:10]

It will be transformed, changing its chemical nature, and will permeate our whole body. So when you eat something, when you chew something, it becomes transformed. It's no longer what it was. and it loses its nature as what it was and becomes part of something else. In the process it dies within our body and to eat and digest food is natural to us as we are always changing this organic process, I'm sorry, whatever is changing, and this dynamic, organic process is called emptiness. In other words, food has a form, rice has a form.

[15:16]

And we see it and we call it, this is rice. But actually, it's emptiness. We eat the rice and we chew it. and it changes its form. It releases the energy that held together rice, and the energy becomes something else, and enters the body, and the body transforms it into something else. When he says this is emptiness, there are actually 20 definitions of emptiness in Buddhism. That's the definition that we use here. is interdependence. Emptiness means interdependence. Something has a form, but that form is dependent on many other things. A grain of rice is dependent on the sun, the rain, the ground, the formula, the conditions.

[16:24]

So many conditions are needed and expressed in a grain of rice. We say innumerable labors brought us this food in our meal chant. How much energy it takes to make one grain of rice. The whole universe is involved in one grain of rice. And this one grain of rice holds the universal energy. But it holds it as a grain of rice. When we chew the rice we release the energy and it becomes something else. That energy fills our body and our body is continually transforming all of these things that we eat. This is called the realm of emptiness.

[17:27]

Emptiness meaning There's only change. Suzuki Yoshi's main mantra, if you want to call it that, was everything changes. The whole meaning of Buddhism is everything changes. Nothing holds its form, but everything is contributing to everything else. This is called interdependence. So emptiness means interdependence. When we talk about emptiness in various ways, But in Buddhism, people are confused. Actually, emptiness means energy. It's the space in which everything can change. But it's not space. It's simply the relinquishment of energy, the gathering and relinquishing of energy. So everything is continuing contributing to everything else.

[18:30]

So when we're selfish and gather too much for ourselves, we're actually stopping the flow of energy. If everyone in the world was cooperating with everyone else and contributing to the welfare of everyone else, this would be a totally different world where energy is fully flowing and everyone is living in a totally different way. But we don't know how to do that, unfortunately. He says, the reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form. No special form. It only takes this form momentarily. Everything, all of us, only take this form momentarily. Everything is eating everything else.

[19:32]

So this world is like everything is eating. This is what Buddha said. The big fish eat the smaller fish, eat the smaller fish, eat the smaller fish. We have so much wonderful bacteria in our bodies that is living off of us. And we're living off of other beings. Everything is living off of everything else and offering itself to everything else. If we know how to offer, no problem. But we're often afraid to be generous. So, when it is changing, it carries our life energy. We know that we are empty. and also that the earth is empty. The forms are not permanent. You may wonder, what is this universe?

[20:38]

But the universe has no limit. Emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip. What it means is, it's not out there. Space is not emptiness. As a matter of fact, space is solid. Space is on the side of form, not on the side of emptiness. We say empty space, you know, there was a speculator who was talking about building something in the desert because it was a wasteland. To him, it was a wasteland. There's nothing there that he could relate to, so he called it a wasteland. There's no such thing as a wasteland. every part of the earth is inhabited by something and the least inhabited is often the most precious so emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip emptiness can be understood when you are perfectly involved or completely involved in chewing rice this is actual emptiness

[21:57]

The most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself in delusion. The most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself in delusion. And yet we cannot live or practice without delusion. Sounds like a contradiction, but... Delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something in which you can establish yourself. It is like a stepladder. Without it, you can't climb up, but you don't stay on the stepladder. With this confidence, you can continue to study our way. That is why I say, don't run away, stick to me. but I don't mean stick to me.

[23:01]

Stick with me, stay with me. That is, I remember the kind of delusion. I am your friend. I'm just practicing with you as your friend who has many step letters. So, he says the most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense, but not establish yourself in delusion. We have to live in delusion. We don't try to separate and we'll go out of delusion that would be a delusion in itself we have to understand delusion enlightenment is realizing what delusion is but mostly it's hard to realize that we live in a divided world in a materialistic divided world.

[24:04]

This is called the realm of delusion. At one time, Buddhists wanted to divide nirvana from delusion. the world of nirvana from the world of delusion so they made a split between the world of delusion which is the world of being caught by karma by our desires and the world of freedom called nirvana but Buddhism came to understand that the world of delusion cannot be left behind We can't climb out of delusion in order to reach nirvana, which is freedom within delusion.

[25:12]

Freedom from delusion within delusion. Freedom from suffering within our suffering. We can't escape this world of delusion as long as we live here. but we don't have to be victimized by it. So many of us are victimized by our lack of understanding about what delusion is. Delusion is believing that what is that bondage is freedom. That bondage is freedom is delusion. And we don't see how we bind ourselves, how we entrap ourselves in our thinking and in our greed, ill will, and delusion.

[26:23]

We simply go for it. For someone, delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something on which we can establish ourselves. So we should not establish ourselves on something that is not stable. We should not attach ourselves to anything. But he uses the word attachment. attach ourselves to something that is stable, which is letting change happen. Not getting caught by change, but simply going with change, going with time, being in time, totally being in time. So he says, don't run away, stick to me, stay with me.

[27:42]

I don't mean stick to me. I mean stay with me, with yourself, not with delusion. So sometimes I may be a delusion. That's a very interesting statement. Usually a teacher will say, I know what I'm doing. I am enlightened. He says, you may make a mistake and think too much of me. Don't think too much of me. Don't get caught by me. I may be a delusion. You may overestimate me. Oh, he is a good teacher. That is already a kind of delusion. I'm just your friend. I'm just practicing with you as your friend who has many stepladders, many ways of helping you to practice.

[28:50]

But you shouldn't get stuck with me. You should find your own way. So this is how an enlightened teacher teaches. Don't get stuck on me. Find your own way. So Suzuki Yoshi was always helping us to find our own way, and this is what a good teacher will do. Some teachers keep their students close to them as a kind of support or something. But a good teacher should be really happy when a student leaves. Matter of fact, Suzuki Yoshi once, I remember his saying, When you come and practice with me, a good teacher would turn you away. Go away. You have to kind of fight to get back. Sometimes we say a student has to ask three times before the teacher will accept them.

[29:55]

Where is your sincerity? There's some really good stories about that that people may complain about. Sounds brutal, but actually, there's much truth in these stories. So, he said, we shouldn't be disappointed with a bad teacher or with a bad student. You know, if a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth, something real will be established. So he doesn't put himself up there. He puts himself... It's a bad student. I'm a bad teacher, maybe. You're a bad student, maybe. But he really is not thinking about good and bad. He's just saying that. That's a kind of humility. He doesn't think he's a bad teacher, and he doesn't necessarily think a bad student is a bad student. Matter of fact, he says, I think it's, I like a mischievous student.

[31:01]

When a student is really mischievous, you can see who they are. If people are just always trying to be good, you can't really see them. But when a person is mischievous, which most people don't like, there's something there, some kind of spirit there that's very strong. And you can see their true character. And when you can see the true character of the student, you know how to deal with that. So I'm not saying everybody should be mischievous. But he would have liked everyone to show him their true face or their true character, not pretend something, just, this is who I am. And when you are you, then something can happen. So first, he wants the student to simply be who they are.

[32:03]

then he can work with that student. So it's not like a bad student or a good student. There are no good or bad students. They're just people who are who they are. And then you work with whatever that is. If you only prefer a certain kind of student, you're not much of a teacher. So a teacher, many people come to the teacher, and the teacher has to define or see who that person is. And they're all different. And they're all somewhat challenging. So the teacher has to be standing in reality and not get fooled by delusion. Not get fooled by the student's delusions. And the student shouldn't get fooled by the teacher's delusions either. but a good teacher is standing, even me.

[33:11]

I know my delusions. I know my delusions. I know my shortcomings. I know my bad points. Suzuki Roshi, people would say, well, Suzuki Roshi's so good, but actually, I don't like that. He wasn't always so good. There's this kind of adoration of the teacher, which, not so good. because it kind of puts a veil over the person of, oh, good. The person is not always so good. He had many problems. And I wouldn't say he was bad, but he saw his shortcomings. He knew what his shortcomings were. And he expressed that. And he could apologize to everyone in such a gracious manner that it just took everyone's breath away. So that way you knew that you could trust your teacher because he wasn't hiding his faults.

[34:17]

He wasn't building on anything and didn't want anything. If the teacher wants you, you should leave. The teacher is just there. You come. He relates to you. If you go, goodbye. Hello. Goodbye. That's all. Because the teacher doesn't want anything. The teacher just has his own practice. So that instills trust. So the way we experience emptiness is through form. And if we believe too much in form, that's delusion. If we put too much trust in the forms that appear here, that's delusion because nothing

[35:31]

lasts, everything changes. So you can't count on those things that are changing except momentarily. So emptiness is like the ground. We have to have our feet on the ground and not put our trust in what is ephemeral. Although we do live in the ephemeral world. So we find emptiness through the ephemeral world. They're not two different things. So we have the ephemeral world and the world of emptiness at the same time. So in the Heart Sutra it says, forms emptiness, emptiness is form, that which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness form.

[36:37]

They're not two different things. The world of the foundation and the ephemeral are the same. But usually we're caught by the ephemeral and we don't recognize emptiness or the foundation. So I read a little thing that says, well, to have faith in the ephemeral is delusion. But to practice within delusion is enlightenment. To put your faith in the ephemeral is delusion, but to practice within the delusion is enlightenment.

[38:01]

So I think it's time to end. Sorry I don't have time for questions. I hope it was comprehensible.

[38:27]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_94.85