This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I remember seeing, I think it was the Oracle, which is a newspaper published in the Haight-Ashbury. during the height of the hippie era. And I think there was an article on there about Suzuki Roshi. And so the headline of the article was kind of like, Suzuki Roshi's teaching, or his favorite teaching, or his main teaching was, form is emptiness, emptiness form.

[01:01]

Form is form, emptiness is emptiness. And I thought, I was really impressed that this was published in the Oracle. Right out there. Very essential Mahayana teaching right out there. Unadulterated for the hippies. So we have lots of wonderful stories about Suzuki Roshi and yet Suzuki Roshi did teach form is emptiness. Very straightforward Mahayana bodhisattva sutrik dharma. And Somebody came to talk to me recently and what he said reminded me of an ancient master who was kind of like him.

[02:19]

This master's name, we say, is Dungshan. And when he was young, actually quite young, younger than this person that I'm going to tell you about, he was with his teacher and they were chanting the Heart Sutra. And when it got to the part of the Heart Sutra where it says, in emptiness, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, Dongshan said, but I have eyes and nose and so on. Why does the Heart Sutra say that there aren't any? the teacher was duly impressed. When the Buddha teaches that all phenomena are, you know, all compounded phenomena are impermanent, a lot of people listen to it and go, maybe go, oh, okay.

[03:32]

But some really good students say, well, I don't think so. Everything looks permanent to me. And when the Buddha says, all phenomena compounded phenomena are characterized by suffering, most people say, oh yeah, right, instead of, I don't think so, I think everything's really great. And when they say there's no self, most people don't say, well, I see a self all over the place. It's okay that most of us just go along with the Buddha. But in some ways, the really excellent students are the ones who disagree with them. and say, what are you talking about? You're crazy. Impermanent. Things are permanent. Can't you see, Buddha? Things aren't empty. They're substantial. Anyway, Dongshan eventually got over that.

[04:34]

So I've been bringing up the Mahayana teaching which is kind of like another way to say all phenomena are empty, is to say all phenomena are just conscious constructions. All phenomena are just conscious constructions. There aren't any real things that aren't just conscious constructions. Doesn't mean there's nothing. It just means that our mind is generated in such a way that it plays tricks on us from the time we're born. And it keeps doing that until everybody is liberated. This leads up to me saying that some wonderful person comes to me and tells me, I hear this Mahayana teaching of mind only, that all phenomena are mind only,

[05:37]

But that's not what I see. To me, things look substantial. I hear that the Mayana teaching is that the sense of separation between ourselves and others is insubstantial. But to me, the separation looks real and substantial. I said, well, you can actually see the separation, huh? Yeah, I can. It looks substantial to you, right? Uh-huh, yeah. And I don't remember if the person said this, but they might have said, well, what do I do about this sense of substantiality that I see? What do I do with things looking like they're really separate? Yeah. When we notice that we see the opposite of the teaching, what do we do with that?

[06:41]

Well, I said to him, you practice all the bodhisattva practices. Just apply all the bodhisattva practices to things that don't look like their conscious constructions. Like if this person doesn't look like a conscious construction, then just apply all the bodhisattva practices to the appearance of this person who doesn't look like a conscious construction. who looks like a real substantial person out there separate from you, apply all the bodhisattva practices to that phenomena. And he said, you mean zazen? And I said, yeah. But when I say zazen, I mean the zazen, which is all bodhisattva practices. That's the zazen that you apply to the illusion that you're separate from people. That's the zazen which is generosity, ethical discipline, patience, enthusiasm, concentration and wisdom.

[07:51]

That's zazen. There's infinite bodhisattva practices. They can be summarized as six or they can be summarized as one. Summarizing them with one, you can call it zazen. And applying all these practices to the illusion of separation will lead to entry into the reality that that's an illusion. If we apply the six perfections to unreality, we will be taken to the entry into reality. But this reality is not a substantial thing any more than the illusion substantial.

[08:51]

The reality is the insubstantiality of the illusion of substantiality. And that reality is also insubstantial. After we enter into the... unreality of unreality which is reality then we continue to do the same practices that we did before it's just that now we understand the practices that we've been doing before we enter into the understanding of conscious construction only we have a conscious construction of the practice and we think that the practice is actually what we think the practice is. But it's not. And it's not not what we think it is either. So then we continue the practice that we've been doing all along, but we're free of the standpoint of mind.

[10:02]

When we first start practice, we have no way to start the practice other than from the standpoint of conscious construction only. We start practicing from the standpoint of of the mind applying these practices to the standpoint of mind we become free of the standpoint of mind and would be and the practices are realized in their reality These teachings originated, the story is, in India, among the Indian great vehicle masters, disciples of Buddha.

[11:09]

They wanted to show how to realize emptiness in the context of consciousness and thereby understanding become free of mind. And then I brought up the story of a Chinese teacher of mind-only named Guishan. Guishan is... also associated with his main disciple, Yangshan. And I told you a story a couple days ago about another monk who came to see Guishan, a monk named Xiangyan. Xiangyan studied with Guishan's teacher, Baijong, and when Baijong died, Xiang...

[12:19]

Xiangyan continued to practice with Guishan. So it seems to me that Guishan saw that Xiangyan was caught like sentient beings normally are caught within his consciously constructed experience. He had a brilliantly constructed mental world where he was living. And Guizhan wanted to help him break out of that perspective. So he thought of some, yeah, he gave him some instruction.

[13:22]

He said, I don't want to hear anything from you about anything that's ever been said before in the scriptures. I know you know them all. I want you to tell me something. You have to say something from the time before you were born. You have to say something from the place before objects are separate. This was Guishan's innovative mind-only meditation for this excellent student who had these wonderful constructions of the Buddha Dharma. beautiful constructions of the Buddha Dharma that he was trapped in.

[14:24]

He thought that was the Buddha Dharma. And Guishan gave him this, tell me something, say something from the place before these objects were seen as separate. And Xiangyan said, hesitated for a while and then mumbled something and Guishan said no and Shang Yan left went back and got all of his notes looked through all his notes from his teacher and came back and talked to Guishan again and Guishan said nope not what I asked for And Xiangyan tearfully left, went back and burned all his notes.

[15:34]

One version of the story is he burned his notes. The other one is he burned the notes and the sutras. And told Guishan that he wanted to leave and just go and take care of the National Teacher Jung's memorial site. Here's this highly trained monk with great potential, great devotion. But he can't find the place before objects are separate. So he goes and takes care of the National Teacher's Monument. He cleans and cares for the ground around the National Teacher's Monument. And I don't know, in the story, if at the time of his talk with Guishan, if he was really ready for this transition, for this breakthrough,

[16:48]

or whether he went to the National Teacher's Monument and spent a long time there. I don't know where he ripened exactly. But I feel that what he did is that he applied these bodhisattva practices to his deluded mind. That he was generous and gracious and welcoming. to the illusion of separation between himself and the monument of the national teacher. That he was generous with his sense of separation from the earth and the grasses and the pebbles and the bamboo. And that he was ethical and careful in his actions. And he was patient with the pain of not being able to understand the teacher's instruction.

[17:55]

And he was diligent. And he was calm and flexible and open and concentrated. And then when the stone that he was sweeping struck the bamboo and he heard the sound, He heard the Dharma. He heard the Dharma which was not out there separate from him. That wasn't him and wasn't not him. And part I left out in the earlier part of the story is when he couldn't understand, he asked Guishan if he would explain. Guishan said, no, I won't explain. If I do, you will later revile me. And when he understood, he bathed and bowed in the direction of Guishan and said, you were so kind not to explain to me.

[18:59]

Otherwise, this could not happen now. And then the story says that he then composed some verses to express his gratitude to Guishan. And it says he dispatched a monk. So I guess he was maybe a high-ranking grave sweeper. Anyway, he got a monk to take the poem and recite it to Guishan. Here's the poem he sent. This is actually an English translation. I think it was written in Chinese. One strike and all knowledge is forgotten.

[20:04]

No more mere pretense of practice. Transformed now to uphold the ancient path not stuck in idle devices upon meeting the true Dharma we renounce worldly affairs and maintain the true Dharma and the whole earth and all living beings attain the Buddha way When it says, upon meeting the true Dharma, we will renounce worldly affairs, it means upon meeting the true Dharma, we will renounce thinking that others are separate from us. We will renounce feeling that we are substantially separate.

[21:11]

That's worldly affairs. And when we do that, then we can really maintain the Dharma. Far and wide, not a trace is left. The great purpose lives beyond sound and form. In every direction, the realized body. Beyond all speech the ultimate principle. When Guishan heard this, he said, this disciple has penetrated the teaching. And he said that in the presence of his dear disciple Yangshan, whose nickname was Little Shakyamuni, and Yangshan said, well... That's a good representation of the function of the mind.

[22:14]

But I think I'll go check them out. And then the time came when Yangshan did get a chance to meet Xiangyan. And when they met, Yangshan said, well, prove it. And Xiangyan again recited that verse that he sent to Guishan. And Xiangyan said, that's a great verse, but that could have been written based on all the studies you've done. do something right now.

[23:17]

And so then, Xiangyan said, last year's poverty was not real poverty. This year's poverty finally is genuine poverty. In last year's poverty, there was still some ground to plant a hole. In this year's poverty, not even the hole remains. And Yangshan said, That's pretty good for Tathagata Zen. Tathagata Zen, there's two kinds of Zen that sometimes are referred to.

[24:25]

Tathagata Zen, which is the Zen, it's not just being able to recite the Buddhist scriptures. It's not just, you know, it's actually... an expression of showing that you have penetrated the Buddhist teaching. So this, he thought, this was an example of he had penetrated the Buddhist teaching. But there's another kind of Zen, which is to penetrate daily life. He said, so this is, that's good, that's good to talk to Zen, but you haven't even dreamed of ancestral Zen. Try to prove that. So Xiang Yan says something like this.

[25:26]

I have work. Work has me. It can be seen in the twinkling of an eye. If others don't see it, they still can't say anything. that I'm not really here working. I got a gang, you got a gang, everybody's got a gang, but there's only one gang that's for me, good old Buster Brown. You give your hand to me, and then you say hello, and I can hardly speak.

[26:35]

My heart is beating so, and anyone can tell. You think you know me well, but you don't know me. No, you don't know the one who dreams of you at night. Who longs to share your zen and not hold it tight? To you, I'm just a friend. That's all I've ever been. No, you don't know me. Yangshan said, ah, wonderful. Xiangyan has finally realized ancestral Zen. Mind only in daily life.

[27:39]

I thought the image that Mel used yesterday. Remember your dream of yesterday? You had your dream of yesterday. Remember when Mel was, you dreamed of Mel? He was talking about in Doxon, there's a student's light and the teacher's light, and then how they overlap sometimes. And in the overlap, that's where the doksan is. Students do have light. Everybody's got light. And as Yunman says, if you look for it, everything gets dark. But if you've got your light and you take care of it without looking for it, and you bring it to meet somebody who is a teacher or a student, and then you interact, when the lights meet, we have doksan.

[29:11]

Or we have dhamma transmission, the meeting of the light, the playing of the lights. But another way to say it is the student has their own play, the student knows how to play, and the teacher knows how to play, and the two playmates come together, and where their play space overlaps, that's where the doksan occurs. It's not my play or your play that's the real point, although that's pretty good. It's where the play overlaps. That's where the teacher's not in charge, student's not in charge. Teacher's not in charge, but that doesn't mean the student's in charge. Nobody's in charge.

[30:17]

The overlap of the play, the play's in charge, and it's not one side play. It's the interdependent, non-separated Freedom from mind play. This play, you know, our play is also our light. This play is really warm and glowing. I'm not complaining, but the kitchen's leaving even earlier today. It's really early. Wow. I was just looking at it and saying, boy, we have a lot of time left. It's, I just want to know, it's 10.25, and they're trying to get out.

[31:21]

Ah, they came back. Why? I'm not in control. It was a mistake. I got him. What time do you want to go? What time are they supposed to go? 10.45, okay. 20 more minutes you have. Yeah, just look and say, boy, there's a lot of time left before the kitchen has to go. And they got up. I played a little mind-only game the other day. I shouldn't be doing this kind of stuff, but I just thought I'd tell you. I was observing some of the ways some of the people in the session were practicing certain forms during this time.

[32:25]

And this one person was doing something in an unusual way. And I was kind of surprised that this person was doing this particular form in an unusual way because I thought, doesn't he see that other people are doing it differently? And I watched, and I kept watching when this person would catch on to that they were doing it different from the other people. I somehow didn't want to go tell them or tell on them, get the enote to get them. I was watching. Everybody did it wanting this person. So I just kept watching and kept watching. And I kept being amazed that the person was not noticing. And then I thought about how this person is not separate from me. And I thought, what is this person's behavior telling me about me?

[33:28]

And at that moment, this person, the form changed. And they did it the usual way. No, I didn't do that to make that happen, but that's what happened. So Xiangyan wrote this poem. The first part is a very famous image that many of you have heard before. Here's his poem. The chick pecks from inside. The hen pecks from outside. The chick breaks free through the shell. In modern day, we don't necessarily know if this really happens, but the idea anyway is chicks inside peck.

[34:48]

When the chick pecks, the hen pecks back. The hen doesn't usually peck before the chick pecks, because if the hen pecks before the chick pecks, that could be very dangerous, right? Kill the chick. The hen has to kind of wait until the chick pecks before pecking back. And when it pecks back, then maybe the chick says, oh, and pecks again. And then they peck back and forth. So the hen helps the chick, but the chick has to peck first. Otherwise, the hen will kill the chick. But also the hen has to help the chick, maybe, in this story. So the chick's pecking from inside, peck, and the teacher pecks from the outside. Find a place before objects were separate. And then the chick pecks back. And the teacher says, mm-mm.

[35:53]

The chick goes back. And the teacher says, no. Chick pecks again, no. OK, I'm going to go someplace. keeps pecking and finally breaks out of conscious construction only, of believing in this separation. The chick breaks free to the shell of conscious construction. When the hen and chick are both gone, The function has not gone astray. Singing the same song, the mysterious voice goes on alone. So this is Shang Yan's depiction of Dharma Transmission.

[36:57]

And also, I would say, it seems like a beautiful poem about his relationship with Guishan. Another example of how we do the same practice before and after enlightenment. So we practice zazen before enlightenment and after enlightenment. We practice zazen before we understand the zazen we're practicing, and we practice zazen after we understand zazen. We practice zazen according to our conscious construction of zazen. Then we enter into the reality of conscious construction.

[38:01]

And then we practice zazen beyond our idea of zazen. Zazen includes the whole process. After you realize that the zazen you were doing before was your idea of zazen, The way you're practicing before is totally included in the way you're practicing after. The way you're practicing after has enlightened compassion towards the way you practiced it before, which you realize was not the least bit separate from the way you practiced it after. When you're enlightened, you see the same zazen, and you just realize it's not separate and never was separate from enlightenment. We practice the precepts before and after enlightenment. We practice the precepts, first of all, according to our idea of the precepts. We can't help it. We're practicing a conscious construction of the precept. Afterwards, we practice the precepts free of our conscious construction, and we still have a conscious construction of it.

[39:05]

But we understand that's what it is. It's a conscious construction. So, for example, one of our bodhisattva precepts is called... not stealing. It doesn't usually say that the actual translation, it doesn't say don't steal. It says not stealing. So the precept is from the point of view of Buddha. In Buddha's mind, we have what's called not stealing. In Buddha's mind, we have not killing. In Buddha's mind, it doesn't say don't steal. It says it's not killing. There's no killing. There's no stealing. So when Dogen Zenji comments on the precept of not stealing, he writes, in the suchness of mind and objects, the doors of liberation open.

[40:07]

When you understand the way mind and object are, then whatever is happening is a door of liberation. The way mind and object are, in the suchness of them, They're not separate. There may be an appearance of separate, but it's just an illusion. In that suchness of mind and objects, the doors of liberation open. That's a comment on not stealing. In the suchness of mind and objects, that's not stealing. There's no stealing. Now, before you've heard this now, but before you understand this, Before enlightenment, the precept of not stealing maybe should be put, don't steal. In the mind, in the pre-enlightenment mind, where things look separate, don't steal. Don't take anything that looks separate that's not given.

[41:10]

When you understand that nothing's separate, you will never take anything because it's impossible. It's just receiving and giving. So he says, in the suchness of mind and objects, the doors of liberation open. The doors of liberation are not stealing. And also in the chant we do at noon service, receiving the self and giving the self, self-receiving and employing samadhi, in that samadhi, that's the samadhi of zazen, after awakening. And that zazen after awakening, if you look at what it says, completely includes the zazen before awakening. The zazen after awakening is a zazen where you see that the zazen here is exactly the same zazen as the zazen of all beings, enlightened and unenlightened.

[42:16]

Each moment of Zazen is equally wholeness of practice, equally wholeness of realization. In the Zazen, after enlightenment, it is equally the same practice and the same enlightenment as all beings and the person sitting. In the Zazen before enlightenment, it looks like this person's enlightenment and Buddha's enlightenment or this person's enlightenment and the person in the next seat's enlightenment, this person's practice and the person in the next seat's practice are not the same practice. In the zazen of enlightenment, everybody's practice is the same and the enlightenment is the same. And within that are people who do not understand that. It also says there, in stillness, mind and object merge in realization.

[43:26]

In the stillness of zazen, subject and object merge in realization. In other words, we realize non-separation in the stillness of zazen. And merge in realization and go beyond enlightenment. So I'm connecting this bodhisattva precept with the teaching of mind only. Practicing these precepts is practicing the essential Mahayana meditation of bodhisattvas. another one, the one on, I think it's one on intoxication, where nothing can be brought in.

[44:40]

Everything is inviolable. When you realize no separation of inside and outside, this is when we're really sober. Before that, Maybe we try to not do something to manipulate ourselves, trying to get something. After we understand this, nothing can be brought in. And this is the comment on not intoxication. So these precepts tell us what it's like in the mind that understands, and the mind that understands realizes these precepts.

[45:44]

kitchen has five more minutes. Since the kitchen might be leaving soon, any kitchen bodhisattvas who care to come up here and ask a question or express something about ancestral Zen? Yes, please come. Please come up here. Please come. Please come. Do I stand? That's good. That's fine. Thank you. It seems... To me that when people hear you say that everything, all phenomena arises from the mind, it seems like if we don't... It's not so much all phenomena arise from the mind, all phenomena that arise are the mind.

[47:24]

The mind arises in such a way that it knows itself as phenomena. It's not like there's mind and then phenomena separate from it. Okay. So... And you're saying? If we don't carefully define what mind is, it seems like we're kind of given this equation that means we're trying to get out of life, like we're trying to transcend our life, and it seems awfully like... like original sin or something like that. And I always thought that Buddhism was nice because it was about harmonizing with life and not getting out of life, the flow of life. I agree. It's about harmonizing with life. And so it means harmonizing with delusion because living beings are deluded.

[48:27]

It's not like harmonizing with living beings who have no problems. which is fine too. If you know any living beings that have no problems, some really advanced bodhisattvas, but even advanced bodhisattvas have the problem of everybody else that's not so advanced. So living beings have various challenges, right? And the fundamental challenge of living beings is delusion. Because of being deluded, they thirst for things and grasp them and suffer. So how do we harmonize with living beings who are suffering without trashing them? This is what Buddhism is about. It's about embracing living beings who have all kinds of conflicts and confusions. So we have these bodhisattva practices which help us embrace our ordinary self. By embracing and harmonizing with being a living being, you become free. Not so much you become free while being a living being,

[49:32]

of the main problem of living being, namely delusion. So you harmonize with the delusion. You harmonize with unreality. And in completely harmonizing with unreality, you enter reality, the reality of unreality. So, yeah, harmonizing with life. But life has some problems in it. as long as there's any misunderstanding of life. So sentient beings think life is a graspable thing. But life is infinite. It's not graspable. But we think it looks like it is. And when it looks like it is, we can't help but try to get a hold of it. And then we try to get a hold of something that's not graspable, and there's stress, et cetera. So we harmonize with the stress, and et cetera, and the delusion, with these bodhisattva practices, with generosity, ethics, and so on, we become totally ordinary living being, harmonize with that, and enter the reality of that.

[50:45]

And then we still are a living being, we're still a bodhisattva, but we are not tricked anymore. Unless that would be helpful. Does that make sense? Sounds good. Thank you. Yeah, I think the kitchen's going to go now. Here they go. There they go. Thank you, kitchen, for staying to the bitter end. Oh, Leslie's going to try to get out, too, it looks like. Anybody else want to offer anything? Please come.

[51:48]

Anybody who wants to, please come. Please come. Zhongyan thanked his teacher for not explaining this to him. Are we in danger of having this explained to us here? Always. What's the difference? What's the difference with what? You're asking me to explain something? Did you just explain what Guishan... Pardon? Did you just explain what Guishan graciously didn't? Did I?

[52:49]

Yeah. Did I? Yeah. Well, I'm not going to explain how that's not true. Does anyone harmonize with delusion without becoming more deluded? I don't think anybody can really get more deluded. I think when you harmonize with your delusion, you just become more and more intimate with what you already are.

[53:58]

You don't get more deluded. And you don't get less deluded either. you become authentically deluded. And when you're authentically deluded, that's what we're not going to say anything about. When you're authentically deluded, you're still. And in the stillness of authentic delusion, mind and object merge in realization, and you go beyond enlightenment. But we have to train and be very... really very kind to the delusion in order to harmonize with it. It doesn't increase the delusion. If we're not kind to our delusion, we just feel more and more separate from it, which is, again, you could say more delusion, but it's really the same thing over. If we really are kind to our delusion, we realize we're not separate from it and not separate from anything. This teaching of mind only, as you've been describing it, feels to me like one whale of a conscious construction.

[55:41]

It says that about itself. Can you express it more directly? Can you express it more directly? You just did. Did you see it? No, I didn't. Well, do it again then. Can you express it more directly? Please do. For me. Do you have a poem about this? It's in the mail. Reb, I've searched my heart for any signs of envy at the time that you and Mel had here with Suzuki Roshi, sitting, practicing, walking.

[56:55]

informally, informally. And I can only find joy. Wow. However, sometimes I feel like a granddaughter who was born after her grandfather died. And I seem to have endless greed for stories that you and Mel tell. about the time you had here with Suzuki Roshi. May I please have another story? So you're into greed rather than envy? I'm the full package. Well, one day in the summer of 1970, here at Tassahara.

[57:57]

That was the summer that the film crew came down and made this movie called Sunseed. You can see that film. It's been excerpted. The part about Zen Center has been excerpted and made into another film called Zen in America. It's starring Suzuki Roshi. One of the supporting players is Meg Goller. You can see her there. She will be telling you about Zen. Very bright face. 42 years younger. Bright face. And also Mel's featured there as Jisha for Suzuki Roshi. And I'm featured as Head Doan. Carrying the stick. hitting a lot of things, actually. I'm hitting the Han. I'm hitting the students.

[59:03]

I'm hitting the clappers. A lot of people that have come here 42 years later are happy that I've been unarmed. So that happened that summer. And that summer, Suzuki Roshi used to live with Oksan in what is now Cabin 20. Do you want to go look at Cabin 20? It's right next to the garden there, Don. That was his cabin, which he shared with his wife, who wasn't that big, so it worked out. And that summer, my Dharma brother, Paul Disco, and his friends picked that house up and carried it between Cabin 4 and 5 and took it down. I forgot to say it's where the Kaisando is now.

[60:05]

Yeah, it's over where the Kaisando is now, and they picked it up and moved it to where it is now, and then Sinikershi moved into Cabin 6 in the summer of 1970. And one day, I don't know how it happened, but Mel and I were in his cabin, And he said to us, I don't know why he said this, but he said to Mal, he said, don't get married for blank years. How many did he say to you? That's very generous. Very generous. And to me, he said, Don't get married for 16 years. 16? 16. I think Mel's kind of... He's exaggerating. He actually gave Mel a shorter term than me because he's older. So his time he had to wait was shorter than me.

[61:08]

Do you remember that time? I thought that was... Anyway, that was very nice that he gave us both of his two assignments. He didn't say we should get married. He said don't get married until... And both of us didn't follow his instruction. We went a little ahead of schedule. However, he gave me later instruction, which kind of modified it. But that's a story about Suzuki Roshi telling these two guys to wait for a while before getting married. And then he gave us further instructions about that, too. OK? Thank you. I've been thinking lately about how I seem to be dissatisfied

[62:19]

And no matter what happens or how good things may be or how things happen that are good, and then I think, well, it's not enough. Well, what about this or what about that? And sometimes I look at that and I think, well, what's the matter with me? I'm not satisfied with anything. I'm hard to please. But lately, it seemed to me that that may be Maybe it's a kind of contaminated or maybe not contaminated form of not grasping things or not clinging things to being open for the next thing. I didn't follow how that was an example of not grasping. I thought it was an example of grasping. Maybe it is. Yeah, I think until we understand that nothing's separate, we will be more or less dissatisfied with everything.

[63:28]

That's the Buddhist teaching. It's that everything, birth is unsatisfactory, death is unsatisfactory, pleasure is unsatisfactory, pain is unsatisfactory, neutral sensation is unsatisfactory. Everything's unsatisfactory until we understand that nothing's separate. So when we see something, when we see things that are unsatisfactory, if I see something that's unsatisfactory, then that reminds me, oh, I think it's separate. Without separation, there's no unsatisfactoriness. There's still pain and pleasure in birth and death, but they're no longer unsatisfactory because I can't grasp them. So that's an indication that you need to be kind. But if you're kind, if you're generous, and ethical and patient and so on, with the dissatisfaction, you will become free of the separation of whatever you're dissatisfied about.

[64:33]

And the dissatisfaction will drop away in the intimacy. So the dissatisfaction tells you where to apply your bodhisattva practices to the dissatisfaction in everything that the all the objects and subjects that are involved there. The way I've been thinking about it was a little different. It was seeming to me that there was kind of a treasure hidden somewhere in that dissatisfaction. Yeah, the treasure in the dissatisfaction is the value of that dissatisfaction to tell you where to place It's giving you a tip about where to be compassionate. The dissatisfaction is saying, would you please practice compassion towards me? That's the treasure there. And when you do practice compassion towards it, then the dissatisfaction will be a dharma door.

[65:35]

And I say, thank you, dissatisfaction. Welcome, dissatisfaction. Not enough. I've got some time. I'm trying to harmonize somebody who's confused and I really like them but I'm really concerned that they think that I am their answer and I feel some pain because I really like this person but I'm not sure how to harmonize with them. Broken record time. Welcome

[66:47]

Be gracious towards them. Be careful of them. Don't praise yourself at their expense. Don't be possessive of them. Don't have ill will towards them. Don't slander them. Don't try to take anything from them. Don't try to, anyway, squelch their life. Practice those precepts with them. Be patient with them. Be very calm with them. Don't try to control them. Give up trying to control them. And you will enter into harmony with them. It reminds me of what you said about being immaculate in your relationship. Thank you. You're welcome. Can I benefit beans?

[68:05]

Would you say it louder, please? Are you going to make me repeat it again and again? Sounds good. Actually, I was thinking about what you were saying about no separation. Someone seems to know that, but there's something like a fear. not wanting to really accept interdependence. Yeah. I've seen that quite a bit. Your first question about how to benefit beings, even before you understand the teaching of the Mahayana, even before you are free of the standpoint of mind, if you practice generosity, ethics, and patience, You benefit beings before you understand. But once you actually enter reality of non-separation, then you not only can benefit beings, but that understanding, not you, but that understanding liberates them.

[69:16]

We can benefit beings before we understand. After we understand, that understanding will liberate them. Like Avalokiteshvara, seeing that all five skandhas are empty, relieved all suffering and distress. So that actually relieves it. Prior to that understanding, you can benefit. After understanding, there will be liberation of self and other. But we must be intimate with the situation in order to enter its reality. And of course, it's very difficult to be intimate with who we are, because we're so ordinary. So the ancestral Zen is to be completely ordinary. And that's the final test, is we can really be ordinary. And even be ordinary with other people thinking that we haven't really made it to ordinariness yet.

[70:24]

And see how that feels when they still say, you still look like you think you're special. Or you still look like you want people to think you're special. Or you still look like you want people to think you've finally attained ordinariness. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[71:18]

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