This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Now might be a good time to look at some more stories. Stories of... Face-to-face transmission. Stories of awakening. Stories of body and mind dropping off. And stories of leaving home. Yesterday,

[01:02]

Again, I brought up the story about the fourth ancestor, Upagupta, who served the third ancestor, Shanavasana, for three years. And then he left home and became a monk. After ordination, after home leaving, and his teacher, Shana Vasan, asked him, do you leave home in body or do you leave home in mind? And... Gupta said I leave home in body and Shana Vasana says how could the marvelous Buddha Dharma be contingent on body or mind

[02:32]

Upagupta was greatly awakened. Now, looking at that story this morning, I see, oh, Shana Vasan was talking to Upagupta about home living and Upagupta answered Shana Vasan and Shana Vasan said, how could the wondrous Buddha Dharma be contingent about body and mind. It seemed like Shana Vasana was asking the student about home leaving as a way of talking to him about the wondrous Buddha Dharma. does the wondrous Buddha Dharma have to do with body or mind?

[03:50]

And what Bhagavad Gita said, has to do with body. And the teacher says, how could it be contingent upon body and mind? And Great Awakening... was realized. They were together and Shana Vasanakura said, in face-to-face transmission, is it with the body or with the mind? It's face-to-face, right? Is it with the body or with the mind? And again, Upa Gupta said, it's with the body. And the teacher again goes, how could face-to-face transmission of the wondrous Buddha Dharma be contingent upon face or body or mind? And again, awakening.

[04:54]

Now today we can bring up another story about the fifth ancestor, Dhritaka, meeting the fourth ancestor. Upagupta. So they meet. And I think I'll start with a simple version of their meeting, which is that when Dhritaka was born, his father had a dream. And then, I guess, his father told him the dream. And when Dhritaka met, Upagupta, Dhritaka told Upagupta about the dream. And Upagupta interpreted it in a very wonderful way, after which Dhritaka said, I wish to practice with you and leave home.

[06:06]

I wish to leave home and practice with you. Continue to practice with you as a monk. And then, after expressing his wish to leave home, after expressing his wish to practice the Dharma with the teacher, the teacher says, You wish to leave home? Do you wish to leave home in body or in mind? And Dritaka says... I do not wish to leave home for the sake of body or mind.

[07:24]

And Upagupta says, if you do not wish to leave home for the sake of body or mind, He's leaving home. And Ritaka says, the home laver is the self of no self. There is no me. or mine. Once again, because, so Upagupta says, who is going forth?

[08:37]

And Juttaka says, because, who is going forth? Because the home liver is the self. not self or the home liver because the home liver is a self of no self there is no me or mine once again because the home liver is a self of no self because there is no me or mine mind does not arise or cease. And this is the constant way. And that character for way also means enlightenment. This is the constant, normal way.

[10:03]

What's the constant way? Mind does not arise or cease. In what situation doesn't mind arise and cease? Where the home lever is the self of no self, where the home liver is without me or mind, this is the mind. This is the mind that does not arise or cease. Buddhas, and this is the constant way, and Buddhas are constant too. Their mind, also doesn't arise or cease. Their mind has no form and no characteristics, and their mind's essence also has no form or characteristics.

[11:08]

And then, Dritaka says to, excuse me, Upagupta says to Dritaka, you must greatly awaken to that mind as pervading yours. And so, Jitaka, greatly awakened. greatly awaken to this mind pervading your mind. You must. So, you now greatly awaken.

[12:16]

Do you believe that? One person does. We just have it. That's a story for the Great Assembly today. I just became aware of a feeling of being sorry and being sorry for Richard Baker and listening to all the stories and it feels like he's left out in these stories

[14:24]

Yet this place is also very much related to this story. I know the difficult versions and I'd like to hear... Yeah, I'd like to hear a story of Daumat transmission. In 1970, after I was ordained as a priest, after I became the director and the ino of the city center, Suzuki Rishi went to Japan.

[15:34]

And Richard Baker was living in Japan. And they met at Rinso Inn. Suzuki Rishi's temple in Japan. And I don't know exactly the date, but I think maybe it might have been in December. I'm not sure. They met and they did a Dharma transmission ceremony. Richard Baker wrote out... transmission documents. There's three documents. He wrote them out in Chinese characters. And he did a nice job writing them out in Chinese characters. And then he gave them to Suzuki Roshi.

[16:37]

And Suzuki Roshi then finished them and stamped them with the seals. and then gave them to Richard Baker as part of the Dharma Transmission Ceremony. And then Sir Grisha came back from Japan and informed the community that he had completed the Dharma Transmission Ceremony. And I remember him sort of announcing that on New Year's Eve, no, on New Year's morning, 1971. Yeah. Yeah. the roof of the San Francisco Zen Center on New Year's morning.

[17:50]

He was glad to have completed that ceremony and have an American successor. He already had a Japanese successor, two Japanese successors back in Japan. So he seemed to be feeling really that an important thing had been accomplished. And one of my Dharma brothers, elder Dharma brother, said to Suzuki Rishi, what does that mean that Dharma transmission is completed? And Suzuki Rishi said to him, he shouldn't ask. That was the beginning of the last year of Suzuki Rishi's life.

[18:59]

With him announcing that important event. And then I guess 12 years later, almost exactly 12 years later, in January of 83, over in cabin 6 and cabin 5, the next generation of dharma transmission in that lineage occurred between Richard Baker and Tenshin Zenki. Maybe I'll tell that story, too. But maybe not today.

[20:05]

After I finish the rest of the lineage... Just 86, 96 to go. No, 86 to go. I don't know if I'll be around. Well, even if you're not around, you must be awakened, greatly awakened, about this story. Thank you for caring for Richard Baker Roshi. I also thank Michael for his question.

[21:59]

And I don't see mine as unrelated, even though it may appear abstract. In Sasachi, Dogen speaks of whipping cart and whipping horse. Ox. The ox. different translation, but a good one. You have one that says horse? The one that, yes, the one that Kaz translated is horse, whipping the cart, which I have understood to be mind and body. And he seems... rather strong in saying that in our tradition we actually do whip the cart.

[23:04]

And I'm kind of curious about, for someone who is even more emphatically understood to have said cast off body and mind, what does whipping the cart mean to you, if it does, anything? It means dropping off body and mind. When I hear you give a dramaturge I do feel that there's a skillfulness in the pivot where I can see the cart being turned.

[24:15]

And I felt that very strongly in your talk yesterday when you spoke of stories as a kind of thing. of the cart, overturning of the cart. And so the thrust of things feels like it moves through something that we call mind and that is spoken to as mind but is turned over as mind. That's just me? That's just me speaking this. Mani? Is that the may have known me?

[25:28]

I think that's the overturning. There's still a little this and that. And what is the this of the little this? This is examining the words that we use and how they pull things apart and pull things together. How important they are. There's a... satisfaction that isn't a cutting away, but is a pleasure of looking and admiring. Admiring the words.

[26:33]

Admiring the words, admiring the way, admiring the body-mind, the turning of the cart. And when I say the turning of the cart, I'm hearing the one who maybe told a different story that was the same and saying, cast off body and mind, also saying, let's look at the cart together. Can the cast off body and mind say, let's look at the cart together? cast-off body and mind can talk. The cast-off body and mind which doesn't arise or cease.

[27:39]

If you can't hear the monks, ask them to speak louder. Speak louder! Sensei Roshi, I understand you're teaching us family stories. Is there anything else? Do you want another story? Teach me no story.

[29:40]

In teaching you no story, do you want me to use a story? Is there any other way? No. Did you just look for another way? That's what I thought. I thought, I think he just looked over there for another story. Yeah, right. Stories are traps.

[30:46]

Stories are karmic consciousness. But stories are what release us from karmic consciousness also. Release from karmic consciousness. By using karmic consciousness in face-to-face conversation. released from karmic consciousness pardon what is released from karmic consciousness the self of no self without me or mine the mind which doesn't arise or cease is released from karmic consciousness by talking to each other about stories And this is another one.

[31:50]

In the naked monastery. I have a question in his book The World is Made of Stories the American Zen teacher David Loy he ends his preface to the book with a series of three questions kind of rhetorical questions he says

[33:26]

Is the fulfillment of the spiritual path, does that entail finding the best story, the most ennobling story and living by it? Does it entail dropping stories and living more authentically, maybe creating our own story? Or is it relating to stories in a new way? And when I think of that, initially I thought, probably the third option that we're training to do. But then I had this thought, what is the Bodhisattva ideal? Is it all three or is it none of them? I think it's all three. It's all three. In Zen, you could do the second two without the bodhisattva.

[34:35]

Well, not just ideal. Without the bodhisattva vow, you could drop stories. Did you say drop? Yes. And I would say in order to drop stories, you have to relate to them in various ways other than... the way you habitually relate to it. So the second two, I think, work together. Yeah, you can't draw stories without looking at them different ways, and you can't look at them different ways without having stories. But the bodhisattva vow makes it possible to look at the stories in other ways without limit. Like, you say, well, I'm looking at this story, now I looked at it another way. And then, but the bodhisattva vow will open you to other people telling you how you should look at this story.

[35:42]

Other people putting you into question about the narrowness of your approach. And because of your vow, You listen to them and you realize that they should be listened to and then that makes your looking at the stories more fruitful or just plain fruitful. So I think all three are in the ennobling path, particularly the ennobling path of practicing together with everybody. That helped our inquiry be full and endless. Endless.

[36:46]

Thank you. I've been thinking about this question.

[38:10]

Initially I thought, this might seem superficial to Roshi. Then I thought, I need to ask it anyway. I'm wondering, Roshi, if you have a story that connects Katagiri Roshi, Suzuki Roshi, with you and all beings. I have many stories that connect Katagiri Roshi with Suzuki Roshi and me. Can you share one, please? We had a board meeting at the San Francisco Zen Center in... What was the date?

[39:18]

It was probably 1971, but I'm not sure. And Katagirvashi told us that... I think he was telling us that he was going to leave Zen Center. I think discussions had already occurred with a group in Monterey and a group in Minnesota. So he was thinking of leaving Zen Center so he could have... where he could teach in his own temple. And I think there was some discussion about maybe him staying and perhaps being Suzy Karachi's successor. And he said, I cannot control Richard Baker.

[40:32]

In other words, he understood Richard Baker was probably going to come back to Zen Center, but he couldn't... He didn't feel that Richard Baker could accept him as the abbot and follow his... He said control, but anyway, follow his teaching. So he didn't feel like he'd stay and be abbot with this person. a major person at Zen Center that maybe wouldn't support him and relate to him as the abbot. I'm embellishing there, but he just said, I don't think it would work for me to stay and be abbot because I can't control Richard Baker. And so he made his resignation, and the board accepted it, and I was asked to go tell Suzuki Roshi. And I said, Roshi, Kanagiri Roshi, resign today.

[41:49]

And I don't remember exactly if Suzuki Roshi said, did you accept his resignation? I don't remember if he said that. But anyway, I told him we did accept his resignation. And Suzuki Roshi went, oh, we don't accept. I think he's saying if he was in the room, he wouldn't have accepted. Or that in our Zen school, we don't accept resignations like that. Maybe he wished that we would say, we don't accept your resignation. We'll help you work with Richard Baker. We'll help you work this out with him. We weren't exactly a pointing of habit. We're just saying, if you were. I mean, we didn't do that, though. We just accepted it. So then he started making plans to leave Zen Center, and he did.

[42:53]

And one more connection, and so that's connection between the three of us. I delivered the message from the board to Suzuki Roshi, and I saw Suzuki Roshi's face kind of somewhat shocked and disappointed that we had accepted Gadigiri Roshi's resignation. all three of us there. Thank you. You're welcome. Also, Suzuki Roshi is the person who told us to start calling Kadagiri Roshi Kadagiri Roshi. We call him Kadagiri Sensei. for, you know, most of the time he's at Zen Center. But in the last year or so, at the time he's at Zen Center, Suzuki Rishi said, please call him Katagiri Roshi.

[44:05]

This is kind of about Suzuki Roshi and Kadagiri Roshi, too, this next story. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah. So when I put my hands together, I often think of Kadagiri Roshi. I sort of model my gasho on his gasho. modeling my gusho and his gusho, excuse me for saying so, he really liked my gusho. He told people back in Minnesota, that's a really good gusho. And I modeled my gusho on Kata Gurevich's gusho because Zika Gurevich's gusho

[45:27]

is like this. Like this. Because he has fingers, he can't straighten his finger. So Siddhartha Gassho is like this. So I can't really copy it. So I copy because of your Siddhartha Gassho. But I often think of Siddhartha Gassho too. So the three of us are together in there. And if you look at San Francisco Zen Center, we have stained glass windows of Katagiri Oshizuka Shou and Suzuki Oshizuka Shou made by one of our students. Hmm? I saw that and I didn't know what it was. Yeah, it's Katagiri Oshiz and Suzuki Oshiz. When I'm seeing Zazen, sometimes I can feel this connection with the universe, this kind of, not so much myself.

[47:03]

But then after Zazen, like, you know, I mean, I have to ring bells or I have to chant. And sometimes there is this that I ring and I say, like, what is this bell? Or like, what is my voice now? Like, What is this person? Like what is this self that do these things? Where is the universe kind of doing these things? It's none other than you doing those things. It's the whole universe in the form of what am I doing here? It's everything in this way. And at that time, you don't think, oh, this is the whole universe. But the whole universe is not thinking that. The whole universe is now in the form of, this is not the whole universe.

[48:07]

I'm just hung up on this belt. That's the whole universe in that way. And when you feel connected to the whole universe, that's the whole universe feeling connected to the whole universe. And the next moment when you don't feel connected to the whole universe, that's the whole universe not feeling connected to the whole universe. You are always the whole universe in the form of you. You cannot get away from the whole universe. No matter where you go, it comes with you. Like there. Okay. Okay. The whole universe is now you laughing. So then if the whole universe is always with me, so why do we see that?

[49:17]

the whole practice period I've been talking about on why we sit Zazen. And I will continue. We sit Zazen because the whole universe uses us to sit Zazen. And that's the story about why we see Zaza. And I'll tell more. And I have been telling them. They're all stories about why we are practicing the whole universe in our life. their traps.

[50:37]

Whatever I say about why we're doing zazen is a karmic trap. And if we study that story about why we said zazen, it will be released from the story of why we said zazen. And I will tell you more stories about why we said zazen for you to study and become free of. Here's another story. You came to me and asked me to give you a trap to get into about why you're doing zazen or why we're doing zazen. So did I ask for a trap? Yeah, you asked for... I think, well, I think you asked for something other than nothing. I think you asked for some kind of, like, story... about why we said sazen.

[51:38]

I think you did. Did you? I don't know. You don't know. I had a story that you wanted a story about why we said sazen. Maybe I just want to have this conversation. Maybe you did. Thank you for the conversation. Next time I'll check to see if you do want a story. I have a question about the story you told today.

[52:41]

I have a question about the story you told today. I didn't quite catch the beginning. So, Upagupta is a teacher of Juttaka. And he asked the same question. Right. And I didn't comment on that, but I do really appreciate when we have stories of teacher and disciple meeting, and then the next generation, they kind of have the same conversation again and again. Did you see that he asked him the same question his teacher asked him? Yeah. That's one of the delights of that story for me, is that he asked him, and he got a different answer, but sometimes they get the same answer. But he got a different answer. So Juttaka looked a little greater than his teacher, because he had this really good answer, rather than, I leave home with the body.

[53:47]

But Juttaka's answer, the way that you asked it, it sounded a little bit different. It wasn't like, I leave home with neither body or mind. I thought it was like, in service of... Yeah. The one translation is, the one I like is, I don't leave home for the sake of body or mind. Another one is, I don't leave home in body or mind. But I think actually, the Chinese, I see the character for the sake of in there. I don't wish to leave home for the sake of body. I don't wish to leave home in body or mind. Something like that. There's... I have, there's quite a few translations of that answer to the question. Which, what's the question? The question is, you wish to leave home. Do you wish to leave home in body or mind? But you all say, do you wish to leave home for the sake of body or mind?

[54:52]

The two different translations. They seem different, though. Yeah, they do. What is, why do you prefer for the sake of? I think it's more literal. I see the forsake of in there in the Chinese. What does it mean to leave the home for the sake of body? I was just wondering, I don't... I mean, for some reason, leaving home with the body or the mind makes a little bit more sense. You described it to me yesterday. But for the sake of, I don't quite understand. You'd like to understand what the ancestors are not into? I don't know why they asked those questions either. Do you want me to tell you a story about why they asked them?

[55:56]

Okay. Why did they ask that? Would you tell me a story about why they asked that question? Okay, I got one. They asked the question, or he asked the question, Because his teacher asked the question. He wasn't very bright. So he just asked the students the questions his teacher asked him. You want another one? He had a feeling that someday there would be a person like you in the world. And so he told the story.

[57:03]

And he also thought if he had there would be somebody like me in the world who would say that he did it because he wasn't very smart. And he wanted me to say that to you, so you could say that you don't see the generosity. Now you see. Two short stories, both about the same person.

[58:33]

One day, sitting in a dining hall in city center, having a community meeting exactly remember what we were discussing or arguing about. See, maybe something small and trivial. Maybe we're all discussing this out loud. And after a few minutes, just a voice peers through all the voices saying, why can't we just love each other? It was Blanche Hartman.

[59:44]

Another. I took Blanche to the hospital one day she was already living in a home and I I spent almost the whole day together with her mostly in silence mostly just helping her get on and off the bus helping her to the bathroom As she saw the doctor, I waited outside in the waiting room. Waited for her maybe for about an hour. She came out, I helped her out. We were sitting outside the hospital on a bench. In silence. And I looked over.

[61:00]

looked over and and said to her the only thing that could come out is just just by looking at her was thank you for your life of practice and just she just simply looked over to me and said please share it with others And so we got on the bus a few minutes later and walked her to our room and said, take good care of yourself. And she said, thank you. May I ask a question? Yes. Are you...

[62:11]

Happy to follow her request of sharing the practice with others? Yes. Great. Please continue. Make her a success. is very clear for me.

[64:03]

What is the question? De pronto senti el impulso de levantarme y venir hasta que Suddenly I got the impulse of getting up to come up here. Welcome. Welcome, señor. I hope I'm getting this clear. Not what I'm listening to. Encuentros cara a cara. Meeting space to face.

[65:09]

I have a beautiful story that I'd like to tell. One day I walked around Sacramento with my sister. And I saw a man walking by without a sweater, looking very cold. He crossed me.

[66:51]

And as he crossed me, it looked the opposite way. And I thought that I saw a sweater nearby that set free. I didn't think, I just picked up the sweater, but the man had already walked about a block or so away. I ran over to him and I offered him the sweater. The man took the sweater.

[68:00]

Put it against his nose and smelled it. He had an expression of just being completely filled with joy. That was a gift for me. The mind doesn't think.

[69:41]

It's just one with the body and it does. Thank you for the stories. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[70:45]

Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[71:01]

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