Okay, we're being recorded. So, last week I started this, what I hope is a fairly long-term discussion of Suzuki Roshi and his teachings, In My Beginner's Mind, and also some of his other unpublished lectures, which are being worked on. Very happy to have a copy of the draft of those lectures. And throughout the lectures, there are a number of koans that Suzuki Roshi quotes and talks about. So I'm really excited to be looking at these and touching base with some of the teachers that Suzuki Roshi found inspiring and chose to use as an illustration of the things he was sharing with his Western students who were pretty much innocent of any knowledge of Buddhism or Zen or you know, the ideas of this great tradition. So I always like looking at his work and imagining him finding language in which to express some of these really profound teachings.

[01:06]

And I think he obviously was a genius in doing that and inspired so many of us in our practice. So last week in discussing the koan, the first koan that appears in Suzuki Roshi's first lecture of Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, is by this 9th century Chinese endmaster by the name of Lin Ji. And I talk quite a bit about Lin Ji, mostly from the record of Lin Ji, which talks about his style of teaching and includes a great deal of shouting and hitting. That would seem to be the two things that he said or offered that transcended language. so his the first principle he taught his students was to study the sutras and the commentaries and be as thoroughly educated as he was about the buddhist tradition and then to find language to be able to express what it is and distill those understandings and present that language to the teacher and then the third level was non-verbal and that's where the hitting and the shouting came in it's like all right now express it without all that language that without all those words you know express something with your body

[02:12]

you know, fully, fully alive right here. So I got a really wonderful email from Helene, and thank you Helene for that, sharing that. And if you want to offer any other comments about what you said to me, I'd love to have you share those with the Sangha as well. But Helene pointed out that that's not, that's style that Linji is famous for isn't necessarily the style of Rinzai practice in Western temples. Western teachers haven't been shouting and hitting their students in the same way that was happening. I remember once Aiken Roshi did one of those Totsk screams. Yeah. But he did it in the context of a Teisho, which is what they're usually... Meant to be part of. And the Tejo is a formal lecture, right? Yeah, it's a Dharma talk. Yeah, right. So not just screaming in the middle of the Zendo.

[03:15]

How about in private meeting? I never experienced him to do that myself. But he was so vulnerable looking when he did that shout. It just went on and on forever. And his wife was sitting there. with tears dripping down her face. So it was very open. It was just like, here is my soul. Thank you. Because that's what I wanted people to hear is that I think by just reading Linji, 9th century, we miss the flavor of how this practice and these koans have been translated through the centuries and how they're being presented now. And this thing that you just said, Helene, about the heartfelt, by exposing your heart, your guts, you know, spilling your guts in a way, we use that expression in English too, that you're really vulnerable and you're really, you know, in some ways, you know, the cries to the heavens, like, you know, suffering, and the cessation of suffering, you know, these kinds of shouts can really be very expressive of our practice.

[04:23]

and our intention to live as long as we can and come back again and again and again to be of benefit to others. So I trust that. I know that was Linji's intention and that's the intention of this tradition is to live for the benefit of others. So I just wanted to make sure that I offered that correction and that impression perhaps was certainly not based on my own experience because I haven't trained with a Rinzai teacher. And even though I admire a great many of them, and as I recommended to you, John Tarrant's book, John has done the same lineage as Robert Akin, I believe. It was his Dharmyer. Oh, is that right? Yeah. So John does a wonderful job translating koans into understandable, accessible language. So if you haven't yet looked at Bring Me the Rhinoceros, it's a really good introduction to koan study. And I hope you'll take a chance to look at that one.

[05:23]

So that's the first thing I wanted to say. So when I talked about this koan attributed to Lenji, it's under this first chapter or first portion of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, which is called part one. There's several parts. Part one is called posture. And it's under the heading of Right Practice. So Suzuki Roshi, whoever compiled, I think it was Richard Baker and a woman named Trudy Dixon and a number of other Zen students, collected Suzuki Roshi's transcripts and recordings. And some of them were a little hard to understand. His English was punctuated with a lot of coughing. He had some lung issues. So sometimes the translations were really challenging. They did a rather beautiful job. as you all know from readings in my beginner's mind. And then they divided it into these different sections, even though that's not how Suzuki Roshi lectured, just like Shakyamuni Buddha didn't lecture in a sequence. He didn't lecture like right practice and then right wisdom or so on.

[06:28]

But later on, generations of Buddhist scholars collected the lectures and put them into categories so that we could better study. what the Buddha, what Suzuki Roshi had taught. So that's what's going on in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind too. So this first part, part one, Right Practice, and the first lecture that's in that collection is Right Posture. And that's the one in which he cites Linji, or in Japanese Rinzai. Rinzai. So what I didn't mention last week is that this section, this first lecture, is preceded by a prologue. in which Suzuki Roshi talks about what became the title of his book. So here's a little bit from the prologue. He says, in Japan we have this phrase, Shoshin, Shoshin. And it means beginner's mind. And the goal of our practice is always to keep the beginner's mind. For Zen students, the most important thing is not to be dualistic.

[07:31]

Our original mind includes everything within itself. It is always rich and sufficient within itself. You should not lose your self-sufficient state of mind. This does not mean a closed mind, but actually an empty mind, and a mind that's ready, a ready mind. If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything. It's open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few. That's one of the famous quotes. In the beginner's mind, there are many, many possibilities. But in the expert's mind, there are few. They already know. So the beginner's mind is the mind of compassion. When our mind is compassionate, it's boundless. And if you start to practice Azen, you will begin to appreciate your beginner's mind. This is the secret of Zen practice. I don't know how many times I've read this book.

[08:34]

or that chapter or that prologue but many many many times or many many years and every time i read it again i'm like that's fresh you know that seems new i don't remember reading that before um at the same time it's like you know hymns or carols that you learned as a child, there's something also deeply familiar about the language of Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. And all of us have, at various times, taken some of these quotes by Suzuki Roshi as a basis for our own effort to try and express the Dharma in our talks. So after talking about posture and attitude, Suzuki Roshi tells us that we are the boss. So that was good news. You are the boss. you know, that we don't exist for the sake of something else or for someone else or somewhere else. And that the most important point is our own physical body. that we need to be right here and right now, which is where our physical body always is.

[09:35]

It's always in the present. I think that's one of the things I try to help students with sometimes. When they're all getting all confused and they have this idea, they're at this love affair, or they're at this angry moment, or whatever it is that's going on, it's like how to come back into the present by finding your way back to your body. You know, we say, come to your senses. That's a way, if somebody's getting really wacky, he's like, Come to your senses, you know, come back to your senses. Sometimes they'll pat somebody on the cheek, you know. Come back to your senses, feel your body, feel it, hear, listen, look, smell, taste, touch. These things are in the present, your sensory experience. Thinking is in the present too, but thinking is the trickster. So thinking makes us sometimes imagine we're somewhere else, or that we could be somewhere else, or that we like what's happening or we don't like what's happening, as if there was some choice in the matter. So that's where our suffering comes, from wishing things to be different than they are. Second noble truth, desiring things to be different than they are, and ignoring the fact that things are exactly the way they are in each and every moment.

[10:44]

Justice is it. Reality always wins. And then Suzuki Roshi says, and this is where he includes the quote by Zen Master Linji, when you do not try to attain anything, to get anything, to get a hold of anything, when you don't try to get something, you have your own body and mind right here. You're not going somewhere else. A Zen Master would say, kill the Buddha. If the Buddha exists somewhere else, kill the Buddha, because you should resume your own Buddha nature. right here and right now. So then in the next lecture, which is called, again, this is under the section of right practice, the next one, so first there was posture, and this next lecture is on breathing. So we're building the body, you know, our practice body. He recites his favorite koan, I understand, about the blue mountain and the white cloud, which he attributes to Soto Zen founding ancestor, Dongshan.

[11:46]

In Japanese, Tozan. Ryokai. So first we had him citing Linji or Rinzai, which is one major sect of Zen in America, in Japan, in Asia. And now he's quoting Dongshan or Tozan, the other major sect. So Tozan is the founder of Soto Zen. So here's the quotation that Suzuki Roshi gives. The blue mountain is the father or the parent of the white cloud. The white cloud is the sun. or the child of the blue mountain. All day long they depend on each other without being dependent on each other. The white cloud is always the white cloud and the blue mountain is always the blue mountain. So I was looking through the record of Dongshan just as I did through the record of Linji when I found this quote Suzuki Roshi gave about killing the Buddha. That was exciting. But I wasn't able to find this quote in the record of Dongshan.

[12:48]

So very fortunate for me, I have some wonderfully learned comrades in the Zen tradition. One of them is our current abbot Jiryu, who's done a lot of academic training. And another one is Taigen Leighton, who's done a lot of translations of many of the famous Zen ancestors. including Dongshan. So I sent a little email to the abbot, to Jiryu, and I said, do you have any idea where I could find this quote attributed to Dongshan? And he said, you know, that's a rabbit hole I once went down and didn't have a lot of luck either. So then he sent an email to Taigen, Taigen and I were ordained together 35 years ago, I guess, by now. Anyway, so he's my Dharma brother. And so Taigen wrote a very nice response and included the following. He said, so first of all, Jiryu went on this website that has Chinese poetry and he found a poem but without any attribution.

[13:49]

So there wasn't any author attached to this one. That sounds familiar, as you'll hear. Green Mountain, not Blue Mountain, Green Mountain is the father of White Cloud. White Cloud is the sun. of Green Mountain. White Cloud leans against Green Mountain all day long. Green Mountain always has no knowing, no knowing, not knowing." So this isn't exactly the same as the Suzuki Roshi quote. So that's when Jiryu decided to write to Taigen. And as I mentioned, Taigen is quite well known. We've looked at some of his work before. He wrote a very wonderful book. about Dongshan's writing called Justice Is It, Dongshan and the Practice of Suchness. Again, highly recommended. Justice Is It, Dongshan and the Practice of Suchness. And he also wrote a book, a beautiful book, on Zen ancestor Hongzhi. And Hongzhi was a beautiful poet. He wrote...

[14:50]

wonderful poetry in fact i think he was saying that he was really inspired by reading hunger and so as i have been i think as dogan was as many have been his poetry is his enlightenment poetry is quite wonderful and he's also they attribute this term illumination silent illumination which is the soto zen practice that's our the form that we do the form of zazen that we practice in Soto Zen is silent illumination, or just sitting. So the book that Taigen wrote on Hongzhi is called Cultivating the Empty Field, The Silent Illumination of Zen Master Hongzhi. Hongzhi is H-O-N-G-Z-H-I. Again, a lovely book, wonderful thing to have in your library of Zen stories and Zen teachers. Hongzhi is also one of the key authors of the Book of Serenity, a collection of koans that is favored by the Soto Zen School.

[15:54]

So many of the little verses that are in the Book of Serenity were written by Hongzhi. And Dogen called Hongzhi the old Buddha. Old Buddha. So he had tremendous respect for this teacher. So then Taigen replies to Jiryu's inquiry with some related references. including this one, which features a koan involving our Soto Zen founder, Dongshan, and an anonymous monk. So this is from a book by a teacher by the name of William Powell, and his book is called The Record of Dongshan. So it's a little older than Taigen's book, goes back another maybe 10, 15 years, but also a wonderful resource if you want to study on your own something of Dongshan's writing. So in this book, A monk asks Dongshan, what is the meaning of blue-green mountains, the father of white clouds? The master says, a place not densely wooded.

[16:57]

And then the monk says, what is the meaning of white clouds, the child of blue-green mountains? And the master says, no distinction between east and west. The monk then says, well, what is the meaning of the white clouds hang about? all day. The master says, can't leave. Where are you going to go? And then the monk finally says, what is the meaning of the blue-green mountains completely unknown? And the master says, nothing to watch. That's good. This is real koan stuff, territory. It's like, what? What is going on here? But I think it's not just random. I mean, you can sort of feel like there's something being understood in this conversation. The monk keeps probing the teacher, and the teacher keeps filling in the hole. No distinctions between east and west. You can't leave, and there's nothing to watch. These are the responses by the teacher.

[18:00]

So then Taigen also forwarded some related passages by Hongzhi. So we have Dongshan, some passages by Dongshan, pointing a little bit to the Suzuki Roshi quote. And now he's got some passages by Hongzhi, the old Buddha, whose poetry, as I said, is regularly quoted by Dogen, one of his great fans. So this one is from Taigen's book, Cultivating the Empty Field. The drifting clouds embrace the mountain. The family wind is relaxed and simple. The autumn waters display the moon in its pure brightness. The drifting clouds embrace the mountain. The family wind is relaxed and simple. The autumn waters display the moon in its pure brightness. The family wind is the style of our school. So this is Soto Zen. It's relaxed and simple. And drifting clouds embrace the mountain. Sometimes the mountain is understood to be the teacher and the clouds are understood to be the students who gather around the mountain.

[19:04]

The family wind is relaxed and simple. The drifting clouds embrace the mountain. Autumn waters display the moon in its pure brightness. Again, this is Hongzhi's poetry. The white clouds are fascinated with the green mountains foundation. The bright moon cherishes being carried along with the flowing water. The clouds part and the mountain appears. The moon sets and the water is cool. Each bit of autumn contains vast interpenetration without bounds. The white clouds enter the valley and the bright moon circles the mountain. On this occasion, you have the same substance as the elders. You have the same substance as the Buddhas. So there we are out in the mountains with the clouds and the moon and the waters. All of this evoking the kind of great mystery at the core of our life.

[20:06]

And this essential truth or this essential belonging that we all have. That's our inheritance. We belong here with that moon and those clouds and that mountain. And the mystery of not really knowing, of not knowing. You will never know. You will never know. What a relief. So along with these citations, there's also a fascicle in Dogen's Shobogenzo collection called the Mountains and Water Sutra. And this you can find in Munanadudra. If you have Munanadudra, it's one, it's quite long, it's probably one of the longest fascicles that Dogen wrote. And in that, Dogen says in the very beginning, because mountains are high and broad, the way of riding the clouds is always reached in the mountains. The inconceivable power of soaring in the wind comes freely from the mountains. So if you think of this again as the teacher-student dynamic relationship, because mountains are high and broad, high and broad, the way of riding the clouds is always reached in the mountains.

[21:13]

So the students are going to get into the mountains, they're going to get up there and high up to meet the teacher, right? Go to meet the teacher. There's a feeling of, it feels like that, like you're going up into this little hermitage at the top of the mountains. And it's a little, there's a lot of anxiety in doing that, approaching someone who at the base, you know, silence and stillness is that base of the mountain. Absolute quiet, absolutely still. And this inconceivable power of soaring in the wind comes freely from the mountains. And the mountains are very busy creating atmosphere. Top of Everest is a very busy place. So this Dogen fascicle, as I said, you can find in Munan at Doudrop, I was just remembering, I was looking through it, I read it over again this afternoon, and I remembered that, oh, God, it must have been, I don't know, years have become just like water flowing. I don't know what year it was or how long ago it was. It was pretty much upstream, a while, that I was in a sashin, and Reb spent the sashin, the lecture portion of the sashin, reading this fascicle.

[22:25]

to us out loud. And it took a very long time, I remember that. And at the same time, it became quite hypnotic. You know, as you would see, if you decided to read that fascicle, perhaps even read it out loud, you know, to yourself. I like doing that sometimes I just sit and read these things to myself and let the sounds make the sounds that you then hear. This is somewhat much like reading the Avatamsaka Sutra. The imagery is stunning. Interpreting what he's saying is impossible. Just images of mountains walking and rivers and streams and clouds. It's just evoking this nature and our deep wish to somehow find or connect with our home, our true home. which many of us feel like we're orphaned from our true home and trying to get our way back, find our way back. So while I was thinking about this, these mountains and the clouds and about Hongzhi and Dongshan and Dogen and Suzuki Roshi and their affinity for this metaphor of the mountains and of the clouds, I remembered

[23:46]

Dongshan's final awakening story, which to me seems that has a great deal to do with why this metaphor is so significant or important to these great teachers. At that time, Dongshan was walking in the mountains, you know, literally, he had left his teacher and he was still not deeply satisfied. I don't know if you remember the conversation we had about Dongshan, but it was really hard for him to settle for simple answers. You know, he tried as a young man, he was like, I don't know if you remember the story of him as a boy when he heard the Heart Sutra. No eyes, no ears, no nose. And he feels his face and he goes, but I have eyes. I have a nose. I have ears. Why does this sutra say I don't? And his teacher said, you're too advanced for me. I'm going to send you off to a Zen teacher, which he did. He sends Dongshan off. But, you know, my teacher, Rep, said that he just wasn't that bright. So I thought, okay, okay. Either way, works just fine. But not being too bright, he was very determined.

[24:48]

He really had the heart of practice, and he was going to get an answer that fed him, that really fed his heart. So in his final awakening story, after he's left his teacher, he's walking in the mountains and he sees his own face reflected in the water of a stream that he's walking across. He's wading through this water and he looks down and he sees his face. And he says, just this person. And he has a complete realization at that. Just this person. This is the way that Shakyamuni woke up and seeing the star. I alone am the world honored one. What did he see? Just this person. Something. Something connecting. Something putting the two halves together. The self and the object came together as one in this non-dual understanding of reality. And so then Dongshan wrote this verse. Don't seek from others or you will be estranged from yourself.

[25:51]

I now go on alone and everywhere I encounter it. It now is me. I now am not it. It now is me. I now am not it. One must understand in this way to merge with being, being as is. Don't seek from others or you will be estranged from yourself. I now go on alone. Everywhere I encounter it. It now is me. I now am not it. One must understand in this way to merge with being as is. So this relationship between the mountains as a metaphor for our essential Buddha nature, you know, everywhere I encounter it, all inclusive, our all inclusive nature, nothing separate, nothing outside, everywhere I encounter it. And then the clouds, so that's the mountains.

[26:53]

Then the clouds are this delusion we have of being separate from our Buddha nature, or being separate from the universe, of being isolates. This is a fear, this is a terrible thing that humans suffer from. Being alone, being lonely, being isolated, having no friends, nobody likes me, all of those things that humans say and think, this is our pain, this is our great suffering. The delusion of being separate from our Buddha nature. seeking from others estranged from ourselves in other words this painful contrast that we experience between delusion and awakening you know just the idea that those two things could exist in the same being you know well not me i mean i i'm not i don't have that quality i don't have buddha nature you know so This painful contrast basically is harmonized in Dung Chan's last line of his poem, or his verse. One must understand in this way to merge with being as is.

[27:56]

And how? How is it harmonized? By understanding, after some period of concentrated effort, that it now is me. I now am not it. It now is me. Everything you see, everything you experience, everything around you, Every moment of your existence, every glimmer, every sound, every taste, every touch, it now is me. That's what you are. All those objects of awareness is you. That's all you are, is the contact, the merging of the object and the subject. It has to be hearing and sound, smelling and odors, tasting and... and things to taste. All of that, all of those things, our senses, when they're together with what it is that our sense organs are for, that's merged, that's harmonized.

[28:56]

So it now is me. It is me. It, what I call it, the object, is me. I am not it. This I, this thing I carry around as a separate notion of a separation of separate self, that's not it. I'm not it, it now is me. This vastness, this all inclusiveness is me. So I, this tiny little me, my small mind, that's not it. Big mind, I'm big mind. Big mind is me, small mind is not me. That's just an illusion or a delusion. So harmonizing is what Suzuki Roshi is teaching. not only in this chapter, but throughout the chapters of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, especially through this practice of upright sitting, which is the practice that all the masters and teachers and founders of Zen have done for several thousand years. Upright sitting.

[30:00]

You say, why do we have to do that? Reb said the other day, well, it seems to be what this tradition has been doing is doing a lot of upright sitting. He said, okay, okay. All right, can't argue with that. So upright sitting, without judging whether it's the best thing to do or the worst thing to do, is certainly a central portion or central part of our understanding of Zen, of Buddhism. So this upright sitting in which he gives us an opportunity or an approach to the same experience that Dongshan and Dogen and others have had in trying to help us enter into that experience for ourselves. That's upright sitting. Zazen. Zazen creates a kind of spaciousness. I don't know if you heard, Sonia gave a lovely lecture this morning about space, finding the space. Zazen is a lot about creating some space for yourself, giving yourself some time and space to just be there, to just be there, without the list, without the to-do's, without the activities, without the storylines, just to be there and listening.

[31:05]

for your senses. Let your senses have some time to themselves without the constant interference of your intellect, of your conceptualizations. So, Suzuki Roshi uses the ever-present experience of breathing as a gateway to such an understanding. This is the chapter on breathing. He says, all that exists is the movement of our breathing. All that exists is the movement of our breathing. And yet to be aware this movement does not mean to be aware of our small self the one that's estranged from itself but to be aware of our universal self of our buddha nature so all there is all that exists is the movement of our breathing well that's a pretty interesting statement and i think um and literally true i mean from the moment we took that first inhalation you know and that you know when they pulled us out of our mom's body or we I don't know how we got out. Somebody helped, probably. But when we got out of there, the thing we had to do first was take a breath.

[32:08]

That's a really important moment. You hear that baby cry. You've got to take some air in. So you've been living in the water. You've been an underwater creature. Now you're going to have to breathe air if you're going to live. And then you take another breath, and another breath, and another breath. And we've been doing that all the way up to this very moment. I'm still doing it right now. and in order to say something i have to inhale and then i exhale some sounds over my vocal cords that's all air coming in and then going up right and this morning i was enjoying that very much that as i said to you i've really been enjoying that simple instruction of allowing the diaphragm to go to kind of a little bit pushing down on the diaphragm just gently not that's not a big gesture but just a little gesture gesture down gesture down on the diaphragm which allows the rib cage to expand. It's a wonderful feeling, it's like a little bellows. The air comes in, it's so sweet, and then it's just all on its own, it finds its way out again.

[33:14]

So air comes in, and the air goes out through our entire life. All that exists is the movement of our breathing. And yet, to be aware of this movement does not mean to be aware of our small self. That one that's estranged, but to be aware of our universal self, of our Buddha nature, our fundamental Buddha nature. When we are just sitting and just being aware of our universal nature, time and space are one. Eating your lunch is one o'clock. Eating your lunch is one o'clock. Going to the movies is 7.30. Spending time here together right now is... all there is justice is it there's no other time or place than this one that's happening right now so it's only thinking that separates you know it's only our minds that we create some place or some activity that is separate from time you can imagine i'm always in time i'm always on time whatever time it is that's the time that i am time being as we looked at in uji

[34:29]

Dogon's fascicle, uji. Time being is all the time there is. The time that I'm being is the time that there is. Imagining some other time, you know, or like maybe I should have had salad for lunch instead of chicken, you know. We do that kind of thing. Or maybe I should have gone to a different movie. I didn't really like that one. So we can kind of create these ideas of a different time or a different place or some other possibilities than the ones that actually are happening. And that's just, it's kind of a trick. It's somewhat of a, it can be kind of a talent, a creative talent that we have. But I think more often it's just a delusion that we're engaging in. You know, we forget that we're just making up stories about something that didn't happen and could not have happened. I could not have had chicken instead of salad for lunch, right? Can't go, can't do that, can't redo, no redo. So then Suzuki Roshi says, when we sit, we just concentrate on our breathing and become a swinging door.

[35:30]

Inhaling, the door swings in. Exhaling, the door swings out. Exhaling, the air goes into the limitless outer world. Inhaling, the air comes into the limitless inner world. But actually, there is just one whole world. When the mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing. There is no I who's doing the breathing. There's no world out there. No mind or body in here. Just a swinging door. Air going in and air going out. The same door that Dongshan is swinging in and out of when he declares, I now go on alone everywhere I encounter it. So Suzuki Rashi then says, when we understand our life in this way, just this way, we become a swinging door and we do something that we should do, something that we must do.

[36:38]

This is Zen practice. In this practice there is no confusion. And then he quotes Dongshan. Tozan, the saying about the blue mountain and the white clouds. So this is the context, the swinging door, this breath, and that all we are is inhalations and exhalations. So he's introduced this chapter with this, called breathing, with this idea of breath, existence being breath. And then he quotes Tozan or Dongshan. Here it is again. The blue mountain is the parent of the white cloud. The white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. All day long they depend on each other without being dependent on each other. The white cloud is always the white cloud. The blue mountain is always the blue mountain. Okay. So I wanted to screen share something that I

[37:40]

I want to show you something that was going on outside my window at 2.55, just before we, where is it here? Okay. I looked out the window and I was like, okay, there it is. The Blue Mountain and the White Clouds. Nice, huh? Right now you can't, well, first of all, it's dark. Pretty dark. But also it's really raining now. So there's no mountain out there at all. There's just one tree is all I can see. This one right here. The rest of it is gone. But this is the beginning of our latest storm system coming in. Blue mountain and the white cloud. So Suzuki Rishi says that there are many things like the blue mountain and the white cloud.

[38:41]

There are teachers and students. For the example I mentioned earlier, that the mountain sometimes is understood to mean the teacher, the Zen teacher, who kind of stands up tall and is kind of ready for whatever comes, like clouds, like little students that might come and join him or her. The partners are like that, and parents with their children. like that they depend on each other and they're also independent of each other you know sometimes the students feel like we you know we make them do things I never made you do anything I don't make you go to the Zendo I don't make you show up for work I don't make you go to bed at night you know you do you do the things that you choose to do and it's nice when it coordinates with what we're hoping you might choose to do isn't that lovely when we harmonize when we actually are in agreement about what is being done here. You know, Reb, I think I mentioned, Reb at one time was calling Zen Center the, I want to do this, Zen Center.

[39:46]

And I would say to the students, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? Did you come here so you could do this with us? And they're not quite sure. Well, I don't know if I want to do this. It's awfully early in the morning to get up. I know, that's really true. But do you want to do it? And if they don't want to do it, it's almost impossible. Because you can't really do what you don't want to do. You'll sabotage yourself. And so I would encourage them to find out what they really want to do. What do you really want to do? Go do that. And if you decide you want to do this, great. You can always come back. We're always happy to have you come back. And try it again. See if you can find out. you really do want to do this you know something good for you in this uh challenging practice um okay so when we truly become ourselves as secure she says we are like this swinging door we are purely independent of and at the same time we are purely dependent on

[40:53]

We're independent completely and we're completely dependent at the same time. That's another one of those dualistic propositions. Independent and dependent depend on each other, just like the mountain and the clouds. You can't have independent without dependent because it wouldn't make any sense. What would independent mean unless there was dependency? So they need to define each other and they need to live together. You know, we can't have one side without the other side. No light, no dark. No up, no down. No good, no bad. And so on and so forth. So this is the teaching of dependent co-arising. Dependent co-arising. Which is the same as the teaching of emptiness. That nothing exists by itself is what is meant by emptiness. It's empty of some self-inherent existence. You know, I exist all by myself. I'm a self-made person. Well, that's just... Silly. Nobody's self-made.

[41:54]

It's like, no, I don't think so. An awful lot of stuff went into making you. We can name them all, but we'd run out of time because all the things that go into making us. There is no self-existence self. Nothing has a separate existence. Everything depends on everything. So we all depend, as you know, on air and water and fire, and we depend on the earth. And we depend on gravity, thank God. We depend on food and shelter and medicine. And we depend on love. That should be the first one on the list. We depend on love, on belonging. And food and shelter and medicine and love depend on us. Dependent co-arising, just like the front and back foot in walking. So you might remember from the first case in the transmission of light, the story of Shakyamuni Buddha, that he said on the morning of his awakening, I and all beings on earth attain enlightenment at the same time.

[42:59]

I and all beings on earth attain enlightenment at the same time. There's the subject object. I and all beings attain enlightenment at the same time. No other possibility, right? So he just... brought us all right along. Everybody got it at the same time he got it and he got it at the same time you got it. The whole universe woke up at the same moment. Meaning that I, as inseparable from all things, am the world honored one. And so are we all. So each of us is the center of the universe, a universe that is made from each of us. so there's another illustration i've i've showed you some time ago but i rather like it it's a digital rendering of this story this is a digital image of indra's net how all things reflect each other and then are in turn reflected by each other this is like these these jewels that are all you'll see they're all doing their thing right here so this is this is indra's net

[44:11]

And you can go all the way in and all the way out and it's just one reflection of another. The light of your eyes reflecting the light of my eyes. We are each a jewel reflecting all the other jewels all around us and they are reflecting us. Forever. So Suzuki Rashi ends this chapter saying that when we concentrate on our breathing, while practicing upright sitting, this activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. When we concentrate on our breathing while practicing upright sitting, this activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. And without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom. Okay, so next week, weather permitting.

[45:14]

I'm going to look at the next chapter and say in my beginner's mind, which is called control. This is one of our favorite ones. Control, don't we wish we could control something or everything or whatever. But this is a wonderful chapter. I think maybe it's familiar to most of you. But in that lecture, he quotes Dogen quite a bit around control. Particularly, it's something Dogen says about time going from present to past. rather from present to future. So Dogen says, time goes from present to past. So that's one of the koans in the next chapter. And then Suzuki Rishi also quotes another Zen teacher, but he doesn't say who it is. So I'm gonna have to go back to Jiryu and Taigen probably. There's also Charlie Pokorny, who's an amazing scholar. I've got these three folks on my payroll, and they're very inexpensive. Chocolate once in a while. But there's this teacher who says something like, to go eastward one mile is to go westward one mile.

[46:16]

So that's another con. And I will be hunting that one down because it doesn't say who it is. So that's what I wanted to offer this afternoon. And I'd love to hear whatever it is you would like to share. Questions or comments or hello, Gi. Hi, Fu. Hi, good to see you. Welcome back. Great to see you as well. I'm glad everybody's safe and we're able to join. I really wanted to express my gratitude for all of your effort in chasing this information down and in sharing all of this life that's happening behind the pages that... I read, you know, so often there's something so wonderful about this living and breathing practice that we're all together and searching and hearing that Taigen is your Dharma brother.

[47:22]

It just it brings so much interconnectedness to everything and how we keep this exploration of, you know, what these wonderful teachers were trying to pass forward there. Yeah, I just really wanted to express my appreciation for you and for all of those that are there as well, writing and researching and continuing this not knowing, right? We are so lucky. We are really lucky. I feel that all the time, you know. It's so sweet. I just wish everyone could be... Well, they are. Everyone's here. We're all together. Exactly. I don't get the word out. Not a single... mold of dust outside but that but that collaboration is so wonderful right that we're we're all trying to help i i heard something somewhere and and it's in what i think is so wonderful too is that it's not about necessarily the answer but it's just more questions right it's about the exploration of of what it what is it right what is this

[48:31]

or what is this question that's presented and not necessarily answering it, but that together with the Sangha, we keep the exploration of it, right? Yeah, totally. It's life. Thank you for not having any answers. Ah, well. As Suzuki Roshi... Very advanced. As Suzuki Roshi once said, I remember this was one of the books we were studying where... a teacher or a student asked about emptiness, right? And he said, because I can't say anything about it, I talk for such a long time, right? So it's true. It's true. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for me. Thank you, Keith. Hi, Marianne. Good to see you. Good evening. Good evening, Sangha. Thank you, Fu, for sharing. You know, as you were talking about the breathing, and expounding it and correlating it with mountains and clouds, I was just thinking about breathing itself.

[49:36]

Independent activities, inhaling and exhaling, but they have to go together. You can't exhale when you're inhaling, and you can't inhale when you're exhaling, but they're the same action. And so I was just thinking that that's... For me, that's just a wonderful example of what we mean by dependent co-arising. And the other aspect of the breathing, what struck me, is all sentient beings breathe, whether it's the plants, the animals, nature itself. And if they're not sentient beings, if they're objects, they've got molecules robustly... dangling and interfering and jumping up and down with each other so that they exist. So everything is doing this kind of codependent activity together, whether it's inhaling or exhaling or whether it's molecules bumping up against each other so that a structure exists.

[50:45]

So in that sense, we're so connected. So thank you. It just led me to that whole kind of... And the other about the mountain and the teacher, when you were speaking about that, I was thinking about your ceremony many moons ago when you stepped down and Juru stepped up. It was a mountain. That's right. You stepped up, right? And so I thought, well, yeah, that's the teacher. And the teacher gives over to the student and the student now becomes the mountain. And so anyway, but thank you so much. You're so welcome. You're so welcome. You reminded me that I was trying, reflecting back, maybe all of you can do this on, when did you wake up? I think it's a real question. I think you all did. I mean, I really do. I think probably when you were children. So my memory was, my earliest memory of waking up to what I really care about was in third grade when Mr. Brown took our class out to the field

[51:52]

Outside, we had a paved playground. Horrible. I've fallen on that playground a few times and, you know, terrible. But out in the field where we weren't supposed to go because it was dirty, there were rocks and little plants and weeds and all sorts. Mr. Brown, our science teacher, took us out into the field and he had us gather around a rock and he pulled the rock back. And like you were saying, Marianne, all these little creatures were there scurrying around. And it blew my mind. And I don't think it ever stopped being blown. I mean, I think whatever curiosity I've had in this world, and I have a lot, Mr. Brown is my, he's my, he's my mountain. You know, he was an odd guy, probably a total nerd, just, you know, bald and baggy suit and everything. But I will never forget Mr. Brown and him showing us what you were talking about, you know. So maybe you'd all give that some reflection, like when did that happen for you? What was that moment when you woke up, you know, to this wonderful world?

[52:55]

Thank you, Marianne. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Senko. Hi, Fu. Hi, everyone. It's good. The storm is not too bad. Oh, it's just beginning, right? Yeah. It's kicking in. Okay. So I was reading... The Branching Stream by Suzuki Yosh. And there is something he's saying in it. I mean, can I just read it and maybe you can help me? Please. So he says, the quality of the mountain and the quality of the river are completely different. Because they are different, they have equal value. And the equal value means absolute value. I just highlighted it because I'm just very... I don't know. So maybe you can help me. Well, everything has equal value.

[53:58]

Everything is empty of being separate from the whole. So that's what emptiness means. There's nothing that's not empty. Emptiness is empty. It's all empty of having a separate existence. Emptiness is a concept that we have about reality. So it's not separate from reality. It's just a way that this formation has created these philosophical discourses about reality, which, you know, maybe the banana slugs aren't really into, but we're really into that. We're really into language and words and explanations and things like emptiness, you know, and that's different. No, no, that's the same. So we argue endlessly about words and language. That's one reason the whisk, whisk in the face, just shh. Stop talking. Stop thinking. Just give it a moment pause. A moment pause. And within that pause, within that silence, there's no differences. Differences require comparisons and conceptualization, discursive thinking.

[55:03]

Everything that's different comes from us. But the bird and the tree and the sky and the moon and the water, they're not different. They're just basically presence, their presence, you know, they're not quarreling. Since rain doesn't have a big problem with raining, it's just happening, you know, so we're really in this, we're the ones that are in a pickle. You know, we really are feeling confused by our existence, even though for so many millions of years of our evolution, we were just looking for something to eat, really, you know, or some way to mate. Yes, yes. yeah yeah yeah because um what you're saying yeah i was actually saying something really weird to my daughter because she's in high school saying you know i said there's no point of comparing you to anyone because it takes the whole universe to make you you're the whole universe and then someone else is she's like okay okay mom enough to go back to my biology i was like yes sorry

[56:08]

she's you're she's so lucky she's got this weird mom now yeah i was like okay i tried but i don't think what's the timing but then uh yeah but then suzuki roche says equal value also means absolute value i guess i'm a little bit stuck up on the absolute because i don't i mean emptiness like what is absolute here what does he mean by absolute I don't know, except I know that that word hasn't been used too often since one of the teachers, probably Reb, because he's been mostly the main influence on a lot of us. He uses ultimate truth rather than absolute truth. I think absolute tends to seem like the end of the line. It's absolutely true. There's no arguing with this. You know, it's just a fact. And I think the ultimate feels a little bit more like, I'm not quite sure if it's soft or spacious. It's like... There's something... I'm not quite sure why the impact of that is so different, but I know the impact of absolute is... I don't use that word.

[57:13]

I got a little stuck there. A little stuck. I think it gets stuck. So I think Suzuki Roshi was translating from Japanese. I don't know what the word... It was re and g. So re would be the truth. But that all things, all-inclusive truth of reality itself, the universe itself, can't argue with that, you know? We don't know what it is, and we can't get a hold of it, and we have yet to define it sufficiently to say, well, oh, now we know what the universe is. It's more like, oh my goodness, it just gets more and more complicated the more information we get. It's just like, okay, okay, okay, it is interesting. But I don't think, as Guy was saying, I don't think we're going to get to answers, but we're going to get to a lot more questions. That seems pretty sure. So, you know, I don't think we have to worry about ultimate or absolute truth for a long time. Maybe we just keep working on the relative, trying to understand the relative truth and how things fit together, you know, knowing that there's this profound understanding that transcends conceptualizations.

[58:23]

Yeah, it's very different. It's very different. Yeah, like knowing there's something you don't know. It's very different. Yes. I was fully, wholeheartedly engaging in the relative truth. It's very different from what you are saying, like knowing, but then working on the relative truth. Yes, yes. Go back to a biology test, but, you know. Yes, yes. I don't know if you remember Cherto. He was riding on the sea turtle of knowledge, right? Tossing away to the sixth, to the way, to... They're riding along in the sea turtle of knowledge on the ocean of reality. So that's us. Planet Earth is riding through the ocean of reality. We're going like, oh my god, this little blue ball is going around the sun. And we're all going like, oh, I'm really bored today. I haven't figured out what I'm going to make for lunch. And we're just riding on the sea turtle. And we're ignoring the vastness of the unknowable. What we can't know, we won't know.

[59:25]

We won't know. And that can be quite comforting, actually. You don't have to worry about getting an A on that test about ultimate truth. Thank you. You're so welcome. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Okay, lovely people. I think I'm going to say goodnight, and I'm going to let you all do the same. And it's wonderful to see so many of you familiar with I mean, you've become really familiar. I think this is amazing. Hi, Kevin. It's nice to see you back again. And Michael. Hey, Scott. Good to see you, Scott. And yeah, lovely, lovely, lovely. Kosan. Drew's there, probably driving in his car. He tells me he drives his car, so that's why we wouldn't get to see him. It's true. It's true. It's true.

[60:27]

Hi, Drew. Nice to see you. Good to see you too. I'm going to see you soon. I'm coming to see you soon. I hope so. That would be lovely. Millicent has a hand. Millicent! Yes, Millicent. Please. Fu, I'm so sorry. I know you're ready to say bye-bye, but just a small clarification from your talk. I can't remember the context. But you said something, you were talking about Buddha mind and essential nature and big mind, all those sorts of metaphors. And you said, our small mind, that's not it. And I felt a bit anxious about that because I live in small mind, let's face it. You too. She's Millicent. I'm kind of hoping that when I'm, you know, thinking about I wish I didn't have salad for lunch and so forth, that those kinds of delusory thoughts, which are what make up my mind, they're it too.

[61:43]

They're not. Dangling off somewhere else is a kind of little bubble of pollution They in beat the in that part of the deal Yeah, absolutely. The small mind is in the big mind. Yeah separate from the big mind perspective that forgets about its mommy Yes about its vastness that surrounds it. There's no boundary there All you have to do is go, oops, I forgot. Yeah. I felt anxious because seeing my little illusion. Don't feel anxious. Anxiety is small mind. Yes, but anxiety is part of it too. Totally. Oh, small mind is not going away. You don't have to worry about that. It's not going anywhere because we depend on it. We depend on our small mind to get to the store, to make lunch, order the salad or the chicken.

[62:50]

You know, it's absolutely essential. It's just we mostly we focus on small mind and we forget all about it's mommy, the universe. So we're just saying, you know, don't forget about your sponsor. There's just nothing left out. Even if I'm being mean, even if I'm being cruel, that's illusion. But it's not separate. No, in fact, your friends will tell you that. You're being mean. You're not separate at all. You had a big impact on me. So no, we know. We know we're connected. Through love, through hate, through ignorance. That's how we connect. And knowing that is illuminating. Illuminating greed, hate and delusion is what Buddha does.

[63:51]

He shines the light of enlightenment on delusion. And it gives me a bit of space when I remember and when I listen to you and other people like the people who are here. It helps me to remember. And yes, nothing is left out. We wish we could, but we can't. Nothing is eliminated or left out. Thank goodness. Thank goodness, thank goodness, thank goodness. And we have this one job, which is just to be aware of each of those things as they appear. Yes. And then to care for them. Maybe they need a hug. Maybe they need forgiveness. Maybe they need lunch. Maybe they need whatever. But we're there. That's our vow. Our vow is definitely not left out. I vow to live for your benefit, for the benefit of everyone. And that helps me reorient to what I'm doing here.

[64:56]

Yes. Thank you, Boo. I just felt kicked out from you. Well. You would be in good company. We'd all have to leave. If you have to leave for your small mind, the rest of us have to leave too. And that's not going to happen. No, this is a small mind sangha. Yes. Yes. That's a really nice one. I think so. Thank you. Thank you, Phil. Thanks to everyone, because I know we were going to say bye-bye. Thank you. Millicent. Millicent, it's in. Oh, she's gone. No, I don't. She's there. Oh, are you in Sydney? No, I live outside Melbourne, Ying. Oh, okay. It's okay. I was just, you know, I was, yeah, we're planning to go to Sydney. I was hoping maybe I can see you. Pretty amazing. Yeah, but if you're close to Melbourne, I'm going to plan another trip to Melbourne so we can get connected.

[66:02]

Wouldn't that be fun? i know right all the songs are trying to find chance to connect each other yeah yeah if anyone's gonna be in london later this year let me know kareena and i are heading off to her hometown so yeah in the summer london yeah summer summer summer yeah me too oh summer stay in touch anyone going to london let me know okay so maybe where else are we going paris briefly and uh Somewhere else. I have no idea. Karina's in charge of my life. She takes me, she says, come on, get on the plane. Okay. Wouldn't that be nice? Well, keep in touch. Anyone's going anywhere, let me know and let us all know. And we can go have coffee or tea. That'd be so sweet. Okay. One more time. Goodbye. Goodbye.

[67:03]

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye. Have a great evening. Bye. Have a great week. Good morning. Bye. Thank you. Have a good morning.

[67:16]

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