This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. I'd like to thank David for inviting me to speak. And I'd like to thank Aaron for cooking a wonderful meal of tofu, cabbage, and brown rice in preparation for the talk. So thank you, Aaron. I quite like giving talks on Wednesday because usually there's not so many people here. And they feel a little bit more intimate. There's less... I wouldn't say there's less pressure. It's just a different experience. How many people are here for their first time?

[01:00]

Welcome. I think many of us say this when we're sitting up here, but it's a very brave act to come here, walk in the door and come to these talks. So thank you very much for your bravery. I... I used to say to people when I was giving these talks, my name is Mary and I'm a resident here. And my name is still Mary. I'm actually still a resident here, but my position has changed quite dramatically in the last few months. I stopped being a full-time staff member of City Centre on the 6th of September... And since that point, I would say I've been fairly elusive in the community. And so sitting up here, it's interesting to have been away, not coming to Zazen, taking up a different thing, and then coming back to give a talk.

[02:10]

I wanted to talk a little bit about that tonight, that experience. In relation to a koan, I was... reading one of Blanche Hartman's lectures. And I wanted to mention this one line that stood out with me that I want to kind of weave into this talk. And the line that she said is, this is what our work is, to become completely who we are. So by this, I think she means this is... this is the job of a Zen student, to become completely who we are. And like all Buddhist phrases, this sounds like it's extremely simple. So we just become who we are. And I kind of took that phrase and I was thinking about that.

[03:13]

And I remember when I first started practicing, the question that I turned over in my mind a lot was, am I good enough? And this applies, I think, to many of us in our lives. Are you a good son? Are you a good daughter? Are you a good wife? Are you a good husband? Are you a good father? Are you a good student? Are you a good Zen student? Are you a good friend? And in our minds, that phrase, I think, for many of us, haunts us. What does it mean to be good enough? How do we measure that? In our world... it seems to me often we are taught in school that the measurement of that is very linear and actually quite simple.

[04:17]

It's like the best person, the person with the highest marks, the person, the favored son, this is being good enough. And I think that this question... about am I good enough comes back to what Blanche is talking about, which is to become completely who we are. Because the measurement of being good enough has actually nothing to do with who we really are. Because it always changes. In one moment, I think, I'm a good daughter. And then something happens, and then I think, well... maybe not so good. In one moment, I find myself as a good student or a good end student. And then in the next moment, I don't find myself sitting in the zendo for months on end.

[05:24]

So I think, for me anyway, this has been a window into practice a window to think about, do I always have to believe in a linear idea that I will get better and better, I will be a better this, and that will just, if it doesn't keep on moving forward, getting better, it means that I'm not successful. So I think the question that I started turning around more often than the am I good enough is what am I up to? And this is to examine my own thinking about what I'm saying to myself when I'm measuring my activity, when I'm measuring my reaction. Am I up to

[06:29]

an ego's idea of Mary? Am I up to the society's idea of Mary? Am I up to my father's idea of Mary? In each moment, who am I? What is my best self? So, weaving into this idea, there's a part of a koan that I want to talk about a little bit, and it's Case 30 from the Gateless Barrier, the Muman Khan. And I find koans extremely complicated and difficult, because each part of them you can kind of blow up into a whole experience. So instead of talking about the entire koan, which I couldn't possibly do, I'm going to talk about one small phrase of this koan, which relates to what I'm talking about, I hope.

[07:44]

I'm going to introduce two characters in the koan. There is two teachers. So the senior teacher is Nanjuan. And he was a master. He had a temple. He had many, many hundreds of students. He was a very senior person in the 8th century. He had a student in that temple who he didn't know because this was a very junior student. And this student's name happened to be later Master Ma. So Master Ma was a young student probably not so young monk. He was ordained at that point. And he came to the attention of some of the, not senior people, but kind of the middle level people in the temple. And one of those people said to the teacher, the main teacher, check out this guy.

[08:47]

And so one day, Nanyue went into the zendo and it happened that Ma was in there. Ma is his last name. And he was sitting by himself. And so Nanyue went up to him and said, Reverend Sir, what is the purpose in doing Zazen? And Ma said, I seek to become a Buddha. Nanyue said, Nanyue took up a piece of roofing tile and and he began rubbing it with another stone. And Master Ma said, what are you doing, venerable teacher? Nanue said, I want to polish this roofing tile to make it a mirror. Ma said, can a piece of roofing tile be made into a mirror?

[09:51]

Nanue asked in return, can a Buddha be created by doing zazen? Ma was dumbfounded, and there was no response. So this little teaching story is couched in this case 30. And I think I have been coming back to this story in relation to the idea that this fellow, who was a priest at this point, not so junior, but junior enough that he was in a temple church, diligently practicing the way, sitting on his own, which many of us have done over the years, and having a belief that the practice he was doing would allow him to become a Buddha. A very firm belief that this was a very positive activity and he was putting all his effort into this.

[11:01]

And so then the most senior abbot of the temple comes and says, what are you doing? And this more junior person says, well, it's obvious. I'm sitting zazen and I'm doing what my understanding is. I will become a Buddha if I do this activity. So I think... You can imagine if you were doing something and somebody else said to you, well, this thing you're doing is no help. It's not gonna... It will not end up with the result you want. And... I think this, again, weaves into this idea of blanches, which is how can we be who we are?

[12:13]

So with this teaching story, the idea that we can become a Buddha a certain thing will get us to become a Buddha if we try hard enough is the idea that's in question here. And what the teacher is saying, I think, is that if you are actually looking to do something, if you are actually looking to become a Buddha, you're missing the point. Because becoming that is a linear thing. It's setting your sights on something and moving towards that. And that isn't how it works. And I think this is very difficult for us.

[13:19]

I had been living at Zen Center practicing for a number of years. following the schedule diligently, accepting jobs, accepting more and more senior jobs. And at a certain point, I think I started wondering if this activity was... right livelihood. Not because it was wrong livelihood, but because I was no longer confident that this was leading me to liberation. And so I decided to leave the temple for a while,

[14:32]

And I'm currently working in a cafe taking people's money for coffee. And I'm not sure that's enlightened activity either. But the thing that's interesting for me right now is that it isn't the activity itself, it's the mind I'm bringing to the activity. And I've never done any sort of... money exchange job. I've never worked in a restaurant before. I've never done, I've never worked in the service industry in this way. And so I entered with, I would say, no knowledge of what I was doing. And I'm working with a number of 23 to 26 year olds. and they are training me.

[15:33]

And I think they're amazed, actually, over and over. Many things are coming up. One of them is that I could be their mother for sure, and maybe even their grandmother. And so there's this tension a little bit about having to teach me things And the fact that I'm so much senior, and sometimes I forget things, and I think they wonder, well, is she losing her mind? Or is this okay that I have to repeat these things? And then they're kind of like, well, what did you do before this? So they're trying really hard and they're really kind most of the time.

[16:37]

And I'm trying really hard to get all this information and to kind of do it right, you know, not make too many disastrous mistakes. And it's not high stakes, I'm not saying that. But I went from a position of relative knowledge in this temple where I was... I'd been around for long enough that there weren't so many surprises for me in terms of space or request. And now I'm in this position where, particularly for the first month, I had no idea what was going on. And these young people are watching... And they're kind of horrified that they were kind of witnessing this person fumbling around.

[17:42]

And I must say that in terms of training, it was amazing for me. I was... It's like... How was the day? Well, it was scary. How did I perform? Well, mistakes were made by me in front of other people that were then correcting me in a not so confident way because of my age. my perceived experience. I'm kind of surprised when they say they were born in like 1996. Within the first week, one of the young men took me over to the corner where there's a stereo system.

[18:48]

And they play records all the time. And he said, okay, now this is a turntable. And I looked at him. And I said, okay. And he said, have you ever seen one of these before? And I looked at him and I said, yeah. And he said, you have to be really careful. And I said, okay. And so then he kind of took out a record and showed me how to take it out of the envelope. And this is Zen training, right? This is like being in the kitchen and having somebody say, have you ever washed a dish? And instead of saying, well, of course, you say, well, show me. And so he pulls out a record, puts it on the turntable, shows me the needle part,

[19:56]

And then I looked at him, because this was getting painful for me, and I said, I'm 55. I grew up with these things. And he was like, well, you know. So this kind of gets recreated over and over and over again, where I'm trying to take in information, because I actually don't know that much, in a way that's receptive. And I'm trying to remember all the time to be kind to myself. I'm trying to remember all the time that one of my vows is kindness. So to be kind to the people that I'm working with, to be kind to the customers. There's lots of opportunity for this, you know. It's really, it's fascinating. It's extraordinary. And And I feel so grateful to be able to move from this world that's very protected in a way with people that are interested in this thing called Zen practice and to be moving in this other world where people are really interested in a good cup of coffee.

[21:22]

And in some ways they're different. but in some ways they're not different. And I find myself thinking about how can I be my best self in that environment when the way people are looking at me is different than the way they did here. The stakes are a little bit different maybe. How do I show up for that? What am I up to? I think for me anyway, these are very important questions in my day-to-day life. What am I up to? What is my vow? How can I practice with this in a way that's kind to myself and other people? I think...

[22:25]

The practice of Zen or the life of a Buddhist can take us on many trails. Some people, they study in a very intellectual way. They read a lot of books on Buddhism. They have a real yearning for information, knowledge. They're very academic, and that's... one very rich path for people. I think one of the things I realized is that my practice is a body practice. I enjoyed being in the kitchen. I enjoyed the flow of the kitchen. I enjoyed the way information was passed in the Zen kitchen. if you pay it in and are watching, I don't mean pay attention in kind of a judgmental way, but if you're receptive, let's say, that's a better word, if you're receptive and have the ability to watch what's going around, there's a flow that starts happening with the cruise and information coming and going.

[23:45]

That's really extraordinary, I think. And then... to be able to take these trainings out into another setting for me is deeply rich practice. And it's not, as I said, it's not exactly the same, but it's not exactly different either. And for me to value this setting, and also to be able to go out into other settings and value those settings is precious beyond measure. You know, the world is a very large place. If I'm intent on liberation,

[24:49]

if I'm intent on knowing who I am, if I'm intent to use Blanche's words to become completely who I am, then if I start getting comfortable in a setting and lazy, the next possible thing, the only possible thing, is to move myself out of that setting immediately. and find another setting. And I don't mean in a torturous way. I don't think life has to be completely pins and needles on like a bed of nails. I don't think that's what we're after. But I think this idea of sitting Zazen to get rid of all of the surrounding world all of your life, all of your pain, that's a type of sitting that I would suggest isn't zazen, that cutting off.

[25:59]

I've heard that zazen encompasses everything. And, of course, I've also heard, as have probably most of you, that it's not just about this posture. And it's an aid to us to start in this posture, to narrow our focus. But if the narrowing of the focus means that there's no... There's no rubbing, there's no conflict, there's no juice, then I think... it's a little narrow. And if it's so wide that you're always suffering, always in pain, then I think that's probably a little wide.

[27:04]

So I'm kind of inclined to say that there is a rich type of practice for each of us. not too rich, not too dry. And for us to find that takes effort. And each person in this room, their sweet spot is a little bit different. And it's even more complicated than that because your sweet spot changes. So then, knowing oneself, knowing who you are at this minute, doesn't mean that you'll be that same person next minute. So this is complicated prospect.

[28:10]

Knowing who we are is actually a lifetime effort. And so this easy phrase that Blanche talks about becomes the pursuit of a lifetime. And Nanue is pointed to this by saying you can't make a tile a mirror by rubbing it with a stone. There has to be more than that. So I for me this last few months it's been to reintroduce to myself a challenge I think that's

[29:28]

maybe more suited to me. It's not painful what I'm doing. Certainly it was very stressful at the beginning. But there's kind of a positive, edgy, stressful, I think, that's very helpful, or was for me. I think this is why some people are students for years. Because there's a that being a student takes that's very good for them. And it's why some people are never students because that request is crushing, you know. So we're very different people and our needs are very different. And I think it's, there's something in there about this society of ours and cookie cutters. And the one-size-fits-all is very convenient, but I think it doesn't work.

[30:37]

And even in this building, the one type of Zen student, it doesn't work. And so how to find the richness of How to find that... How to find... How to become completely who we are. This is what our work is. So I did want to leave... A little bit of time for questions. Because usually I don't. And I thought I'd try something slightly different this time.

[31:42]

Please. Lovely to see you. a job as a cook because I chose to make my mother's chair my primary concern. So I'm working with a bunch of 25-somethings in a fancy wine bar, and I'm the oldest person there. And as long as I knew the owner, I got the job. And they're like, have you done this before? And I'm like, I'm an executive chef for 25 years. I can run circles around you, you know? It transformed to something extremely wonderful and beautiful, and they're great in helping you figure out how to use your iPhone. The experience has completely blossomed, and it was quite a short experience, so I'm very, very happy it's been two years now. But thank you for making me look and reevaluate at my priorities.

[32:45]

Thank you. Thank you for your bravery. Yes, please. Oh, I think it takes a lot for both of us.

[33:57]

I mean, I think this is what it's all about, is being willing to do the next thing. And if the next thing is coming to the temple and being a person of no rank, everybody in this room did that. and if it's to start a new job, if it's to start a relationship, all these things we have to begin. So I think that we forget how deeply courageous we are as people because in the back of our minds we're so often cutting ourselves down. So I think it takes a tremendous amount of bravery to come practice. Thank you for working your way up the ranks. Yes, please. wondering have you could comment on that and you know how can we practice or how can you have some words on how I can practice when that feeling of not enough comes in just kind of like my existence not feeling like satisfies a certain yeah just the feeling of

[36:12]

Yeah, I think the idea of not being enough is a quantitative judgment. Whether it has the word good or not, there's something in there about lack. A lack. And I think this is is something that is part of the human experience, actually. And so to start thinking about that, acknowledging or even for you to realize in that moment that you were having that feeling about not being enough, I think that's a moment of brilliance, actually. Because it really allows you to start settling with the idea that this is something that you feel. It's part of the human condition. And then the next moment for me anyway along that path was do I really believe that?

[37:18]

You know? So it's like this upwelling of feeling like not enough and then maybe you can enter as the next thing do I believe that it's not enough? Why do I believe it's not enough? You know? So it becomes it begins this exploration of that idea that's kind of a question and answer rather than it being a solid either physical feeling that you have or an indescribable feeling that you're starting to put language to. Does that make sense? So for me, it was allowing people this exploration of something that I truly felt when I first started practicing. And I probably, when you said that, it's like, did I say, am I good enough?

[38:23]

Or did I really, like, am I enough? You know, I think both those I recognize as being part of the questions I asked myself when I first started practicing. And it's not that they go away. There are moments when I'm caught, like at the coffee shop, like, wow, I'm really, I'm struggling here, you know. But then it's like, it's okay. It's going to be okay. Why should I know all these things? I've never done this before. These people are helping me. They're trying to help me, you know. So it's a... kind of a very tense relaxation into, I'm going to be okay. This is okay. But I do think it's a, the fact that you had that thought today is very positive.

[39:33]

Even though the feeling is so overwhelming and Because then you can start entertaining the idea that there's an antidote to it. So? Okay, thank you. I think maybe one more question. Please, Diego. Today I got an email from David asking if I would benefit from going through the forms to come before the talk.

[40:50]

And so he said, would you like to have a refresher or is it in your body-mind? And, you know, the path down the stairs into the Buddha Hall, the bowing, this is in my body. And it's because I... have been talked through it a few times, but then I've done it a few times, and so it's there. This repetition is very helpful. So I think it is a pillar of the training, repetition. I also think, though, that if in my mind I am overlaying the idea of body movement repetition with, boy, am I ever getting good at this? Or even, well, I don't need any help. I've got this. That's the moment when you walk through the zendo door with the wrong foot.

[41:53]

Well, I don't have to think about this anymore. It's in my body-mind. So I think this is the polishing the tile idea. It's like, yes, you have to... like repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat for the rest of your life. But it's also important to take care of the thoughts that you have about the repetition. Always. And that kind of careful... the careful way you hold your thoughts, um, is, is also repetition. You know? So I don't, I don't think he was saying, um, I think, I think it's a, like all koans, it's a deeply complicated statement, you know?

[42:55]

Like, this isn't going to make a mirror, but without doing the polishing, it's, it's not going to either, you know. So, thank you again for coming for your first time. And thank you all for coming back for your 10 millionth time. And I hope you sleep well tonight and get up tomorrow morning and do that thing. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[43:53]

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