This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. There's a number of things I want to bring up together with you for these last four lectures. And just to name them core teachings, the

[01:08]

writing complete speech, going into the next part of what the Buddha defined as right speech, no harsh speech. And for those talking idle chatter, I think that might be too much, actually, for four lectures. So just thinking ahead of kind of the shape in the shape of the practice period as well. I've been appreciating very much hearing how people are practicing, talking with people in doksan, practicing with devices, speech, or tendencies towards or catching themselves when about speak in such a way that divides rather than unites actually noticing also divisive speech about oneself or internally towards rather than concord but disunity in some way parts of oneself

[02:33]

The other theme that's kind of arisen just in our being together is the, you can't say it, you know, won't say, won't say, and you can't say it all. And how that comes up right along with upright and complete speech is it can't be complete, but you have to say it. And the Buddha decided, speak so that's another thing that I see that's running through our our discussions and I think another even more underlying theme is harmony bringing harmony to everyone harmony the sangha in our own hearts with our families and friends and the connection with speech.

[03:49]

So I think there was a mid-practice period skit about me, not the whole, all the skits, but one skit from when I first was here leading practice periods. and I would bring into the class this stack of books to lug it in, and probably usually not use any of them, but just, it was like this security blanket of books, this tower of books that, well, if I need to look something up and can't remember, I've got it there. Anyway, I feel a little bit like it's become all these pages today. But I wanted to start, this is how I see the shape of this, some core teachings that, just as a review, I think. I think you're familiar with them. And a koan that continues with, you know, you can't say it all. And then back to a kind of subset, maybe, of divisive speech, which is one of our 16 bodhisattva precepts, which is, Disciple of the Buddha does not slander.

[05:08]

And I think slander... It partakes of divisive speech, false speech, as well as harsh and abusive speech often, although slander can be done in a soft and endearing, sweet way too. So I wanted to spend some time with slander as a further looking at divisive speech and false speech and also the third of the four abandoned months is abandoning harsh or abusive speech and how slander works with that and how slander works with praising self at the expense of others that they're completely related and so it just as I'm saying it I see that as far too much

[06:13]

For this, I should go. We'll see. So, I think maybe just starting with this, these core, core teachings that, to go over a little bit, because I, But the reason I wanted to bring this up is I feel like the koans that we bring up are enactments or bringing forth in dialogue the very core teachings. They're not just, what can I say and do that's really confusing and will stop people from thinking or something like that. I don't think that's what Zen stories, teaching stories and koans... are about, I think the underlying structure is examples of illustrating the teachings in not so didactic, but in interactions.

[07:28]

Of course, Zen stories have also lots of surprising actions, pinching noses and slamming doors on legs and blowing up candles. I wanted to ground those stories and ground the story that I'm also about to tell in kind of these core teachings which may be very familiar to you, but I found it helpful to just review. So I think I wanted to start with what is, in Sanskrit, shunyata, or emptiness. translated into English. And Daijaku Kinst, Judith Kinst, who was one of our Dharma successors in Suzuki-Ruji lineage and also a professor, she said something like the translation of that word into English was perhaps the biggest translation mistake that was ever made to translate shunyata

[08:44]

in English into emptiness. Because the word emptiness in English has so many different connotations that are actually completely opposed to or the opposite of the meaning and the implications for our teaching and the implications of the teaching for our lives of the word shinyata. So it's emptiness And I certainly was confused about it. In fact, I remember thinking, don't tell me about emptiness. I don't want to hear about emptiness. Don't even say it. I don't know what you're talking about. Leave me alone. It was really baffling. Even though I chanted away the Heart Sutra and so forth. So whoever the Buddhologists were who chose emptiness in English and I think in other languages

[09:45]

Voca, empty, I guess, in Italian, I think it's, what is that in Spanish? It's... Vascio. Vascio, yeah. And maybe in other languages, it also reverberates and makes it more confusing. So, I think I'll just name these core teachings. There's emptiness, or teaching of emptiness, shunyata. There's dependent co-arising, impermanence, and no abiding self. And, of course, you've heard those, right, many, many, many times and studied them, I'm sure. So, all of these concepts, by the way, or not concepts, concepts, teachings, we may think that, oh, this is you know, emptiness teachings are Mahayana, Nagarjuna, perfection of wisdom teachings, but all of them have their roots in the earliest teachings of the Buddha.

[10:56]

You can find what was maybe not emphasized as much as it became emphasized in Mahayana, but it's there in the old wisdom school. Old wisdom school, you know, is sometimes called Theravadan, but Theravada was, Theravada is the way of the elders, and that was one of, you know, 16, 18 different schools that became the most prominent, but all those different schools were not called Theravada, but it's a term that refers to kind of the early Buddhist teachings, old wisdom schools, I think what Kansa, Edward Kansa called it, and I kind of like old wisdom schools. So all those teachings are there that's not the property of Mahayala or something. So depending on co-arising or pratitya-samuppada, the basic teaching is when this exists, that comes to be.

[12:03]

When this ceases to exist, then there's the cessation of that. It's maybe the simplest rendition of that. When this exists, then this comes to being. When that or this doesn't exist or ceases, then there's the cessation of that. So it's a teaching of codependent arising phenomena. co-dependent arising phenomena. And in, you know, built into the co-dependent arising phenomena that when something arises, everything's affected. And they're affected, things are affected to such a degree that you could actually say they're not separate from that.

[13:07]

You know, the sound of the leaves blowing and raining down on the leaves. Our hearing of that and what it may call up in our own minds, memories, or it reminds us of rain, you know, all of that is this codependent horizon. It's in our own vaiskandhas, you know, the seeing and the hearing, the consciousness, the perception, whether it's pleasant or unpleasant, all that is dependently co-arising on the leaves falling. And the leaves falling is not sort of a separate thing of leaves falling. There's wind and weather, time of year. Those leaves falling, or autumn, the entire universe participates in those leaves

[14:09]

flowing across our roof, this tin roof. So, we can talk about the leaves falling down, but if we forget and think those leaves are over there, and I've got to rake them, and I don't like to, or whatever, we are plunged into suffering, actually plunged into I, me, and mine, picking and choosing likes and dislikes. So, all phenomena arise together and cease together, moment by moment, actually, and a moment, you know, within that finger snap, there's, what is it, 80,000, what's that word in Sanskrit? moments where things are arising and managing you know so that's so there's the dependent co-arising and within this dependent co-arising teaching there's no everything is changing all the time and everything is flowing and fluid and affecting everything else to such a degree as I said that

[15:39]

You can't say that anything is separate as its own entity. And this ongoing, never-ending flowing is what we call impermanence, change, anitya. So we've got shunyata, which I'll come back to, impermanence, anitya, which is part and parcel of dependent co-harising. this ever-changing impermanence. And because, you know, everything is changing, there is nothing that is fixed that you can grasp, that you can hold to, that will be there substantially as its own entity with other fixed entity that it's perceiving. each thing is flowing and affecting, not separate from, being affected by and affecting, as I said, to such a degree that you can't say they're actually separate.

[16:51]

And back to shunyata, or emptiness, this is not only phenomena like autumn, which we have in our mind autumn, but that autumn is a concept, is a construct, and the true autumn is is us, you know. And wearing a scarf and putting on long underwear and listing that we're changing as autumn. What is autumn? What is us? You can't really pull them apart. But we do. We talk about it that way. So the emptiness is within Pratyatyasambhutthara, this depending on co-arising, there is no fixed entities. Phenomena and self, including self, all importantly self, is empty of all being, empty of separate self. So empty is really a short, it's for short, for the longer phrase, empty of all being, or empty of separateness.

[18:02]

That's what things are empty of. You know, I told the story of Da Wu's condolence call and going to that house of mourning and seeing the casket and, you know, this finality. One might feel that this question, alive or dead, and what it brought up for me, the story of Steve Sturkey, which is, which I might have even told already here, But I'll tell it again because it's a Zen story that will illustrate it for me. Emptiness. And the story, maybe some of you know it because I've told it a number of times, it struck me so deeply, which was when Steve Sturkey Abbott Myogen was dying and

[19:07]

Literally, I thought of in the tribute I gave to him, I think during the funeral, I said something about a tall redwood tree cut down, you know, in the prime, you know, at the kind of height of his teaching, working with students. Anyway, so while he was sick and he was in terrible pain, and after the diagnosis and this one Dharma talk he gave at Green Gulch, He no longer could travel. He couldn't get back to the city center. Those of you who were there never saw him again in person. And he Skyped into a board meeting that we were having and was on the screen, his base, and he apologized to the board, the city center board, for not being able to come to the meeting. But he couldn't. It was just too much.

[20:13]

And then he said, I was always the one who showed up. I always showed up. That was his... That was who he was, who he believed he was, who everybody believed he was. I always showed up. And he did. And he said, and now I see that it was just causes and conditions. It was just causes and conditions that supported the showing up. There wasn't a separate Myogen, who was the one who showed up, that he carried that around as substantial entity, permanent kind of, that's who I am. As long as he was healthy and all the other conditions, you know, wherewithal to move and was not disabled and you know could drive and all sorts of things were all supporting I'm the one who shows up but then he saw through that when he became unable and then saw oh it was just causes and conditions and of course it is always causes and conditions we are empty of this separate self that

[21:44]

has these stuck characteristics, and often people will say to me, I'm an angry person, or I'm a horrible person, or I'm, or on the other hand, you know, praising self, I'm, I'm really somebody, you know, and all those, anything we can say, you know, is just causes and conditions. We can say it maybe for this moment, next moment we'll see. And to grasp that and hold to those ideas about self and other and phenomena is the five grasping skandhas, upadana skandha, and is suffering. And all the comparisons and all the trying to place ourselves where we are in the lineup of valued beings, all of it is...

[22:45]

Waste of time, I think. So... So every single thing is dependent on other things for its very appearance. Steve's showing up was dependent on his health, and his health was dependent on... Let me just think about, you know, having... food and good relationships and being born into a particular family at a particular time. It's just, and to hold to that as if, well, I'm with the Italian word orgulloso came up, but pride, you know. When it's just causes and conditions, always. And one might think, well, what a disappointment.

[23:58]

Somebody quoted to me Trungpa Rinpoche saying, enlightenment is ego's greatest disappointment. So these teachings are not nihilistic teachings, and that's another really important point. The emptiness, because of that word empty, I think, in English, you know, people flip over to, well, nothing exists. You know, nihilism. If everything is empty of separate self, then nothing exists, which is not the teaching. The teaching does not deny the appearance of phenomena and the appearance of dependent, co-arising self. just that there's no fixed eternal self that you can cling to as immutable, not affected by other things or beings.

[25:03]

Somehow that is what's being alluding. And what, you know, this will help us with is living actually a full life, full of ease of joy and vibrancy and compassion and connection and relatedness which is the truth you know no one is outside of this dependent co-rising and affected by relationality that's how we exist that's the reality of our existence together So we can't find any eternal fixed entity. And because everything is completely interdependent.

[26:08]

So these are these core teachings that we intuit in many ways. We know about impermanence. We know about change. We see it every day. We live it. out in our changing body minds, transforming in various ways, changing all the time, and in the loss and changing of beings, and how beings grow up and die, change, change and impermanence, the constant, the only constant as change, right? We know that, and yet I think we fight it, you know, and kind of default to separate blocks of phenomena relating to other separate blocks.

[27:11]

So, the, one of the, and this will be the last thing about these core teachings, I think, one of the tendencies is to go, and to go to emptiness, as I said in a nihilistic way, well, nothing exists. And, but that doesn't really fly when we're raking leaves, and, you know, and get tired, and we, There is the truth of our life. And to say, oh, it doesn't matter, it's all empty, is cruelty, actually, I think. Don't worry about that, it's all empty anyway. I've heard that said in the face of great loss and trauma, someone saying, well, it's all empty anyway, as if that meets the reality of our life, and of course it doesn't.

[28:27]

So another of the core teachings is the teaching of the two truths. So there's samvritti sakya, the conventional truth, which is our life together and our guidelines for practice and speaking together and living our lives out together and carrying out the composting, making lunch, and all of it. That's our conventional life. And to negate that somehow, like it's all empty, is a misuse and a misunderstanding of the teaching of chunyata, empty of own being, empty of separate self. The other truths, parama, Sakya, or the absolute truth, is all conditioned things are empty of own being.

[29:34]

Each moment, you know, is flowing. But emptiness is empty as well. There's no, I think sometimes emptiness gets lauded as kind of the, we make that into a thing. You know, that's the entity, that's the real entity that we're, this separate entity is trying to get. You know, we kind of do that with emptiness, but Nagarjuna, who, you know, brilliantly, super-duper brilliantly, wrote about emptiness and phenomena and all these teachings, and, you know, the final completion of the Sanyangana teachings is the emptiness of emptiness. You can't grab emptiness and use it in the And this is also called the middle way because we have language, of course, which is what this practice period theme is.

[30:34]

We're constantly naming things, right, and designating. This is that, and that's that. Or is it? So our very language itself is a temporary. It's a good try, you know, to name. but it's a kind of a nickname that we agree we have a convention about that and agree that we're going to call in English we're going to call this lectern you know okay lectern but what this is you know is if you begin to look the lectern is a construct and what is a lectern what's it made of and is there any part of it that's a lectern is it the is it wooden top like this or the legs or that there's a little shelf does that make is that the lectern part of the lectern or what if we took the top off what would we have we'd have a strange platform with things sticking up on the side would it still be lectern well maybe anyway lectern we agree we're going to call lectern but it's made up of these parts of wood and how do

[31:55]

would come etc etc into total interdependent being everything's everything's here except electric which is a construct that we agree to call it for short because it takes way too long to say you know the tree and the sun rain and the soil that built made the tree and the person to cut it down on the axe, and who designed that axe? All that is part of this thing, as well as your five skandas, a visible, your bowl, and I'm not going to lick it, but it could be attached to it. And it's like, what is it? It's inconceivable. So we have the conventional truth. that we agree to and we can take good care of this.

[32:55]

Actually, I have a little story about this lecture. When I was, you know, in 1974, I found this little thing, and it doesn't happen. And I thought, this is going to be perfect for lecture. And we've been using it ever since. And it really, it just works so perfectly. It's really stable. The one at Greenbouch waffles back in front of me. It's got, those of you with good g-sha, it has these sides that are tied on with like cords to the top, and you put it down and it's like... Anyway, this is a great lector. That's not a lector. It's a samvritti satya, and at the exact same time, it is paramartha satya, Those two truths, we can talk about conventional tribute, but if you, and this is Nagarjuna, let's see, I wrote it down.

[34:01]

Whatever is dependently co-arisen, this is from the 30 verses, Mulya, Adhyamaka, Karka, verse 18, I think, or 24, I can't remember. Whatever is dependently co-arising, that is explained to be emptiness. So, Whatever comes up, it comes up dependently by all these other things. So it's empty of separateness. That being a dependent designation, that's where speech comes in. And the first truth, the samvrittisakya, that being a dependent designation, we've designated this dependent on all sorts of things. We say lectured, is itself the middle way. Now there's a lot packed into there, but just to bring in the fact that we have conventional speech to live together in harmony.

[35:04]

However, whatever phenomena is dependently co-risen is empty of own being, but we don't stop there because we live together and have to get a driver's license and do stuff, get my glasses cleaned my prescription redone you know so that don't ask me why that came up that being a dependent designation is middle way so we are our lives are middle way and we can't change it it's form and emptiness and when we speak to remember that, which we forget all the time. So that's, that's these core teachings in Sojo Zen and, I don't want to say all of Buddhism, you know exactly, but I think you can find all those things in permanence, dependent co-arising, lack of self, you know, anitya,

[36:20]

Anatma, excuse me, Anitya is in permanence. Anatma, no self. It's all there, you know, in probably all the schools. And then this emptiness, middle way. So, coming out of that, I wanted to bring up the Zen story, which is about, well, you'll see what it's about. It's a death. It brings up death again, which there's various stories about Zen teachers dying and, of course, Suzuki Roshi's death. Steve Sturkey's death, I think, is a teaching story. There's many stories around how he practiced. So this is case 41 in the Shoguroku, in the Book of Serenity. And it's called Lupo About to Die. Some of you may have studied this.

[37:25]

And I had it memorized once. I brought the book because I wasn't sure I could memorize it completely or recite it completely. And as I'm reciting it or telling the story... You know, I wanted to do the core teachings at the beginning so they were kind of in your, kind of reverberating a little bit in your mind while this story was being told. So this is the case. It's kind of a longer case, some cases are sure. When Lu Po was about to die, he said to the assembly, I have one thing to ask you people. If this is so, then it's adding a head on top of your head. If this is not so, then it is cutting off your head, seeking life.

[38:35]

At that time, the head monk that she sewed said, The green mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp in daylight, in broad daylight. So that's the Shusok coming forward. The green mountain, in responding to this teacher, the green mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp in broad daylight. And Lu Po said, what time is this to make such a speech? A certain elder, Yang Song, came forth and said, leaving these two paths, I request the teacher not to ask. And Lu Po said, not yet, speak again.

[39:42]

And Yang-san said, I can't say it all. And Lu Po said, I don't care if you can say it all or not. And Yang-san said, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. That evening, goes on. That evening, Lu Po called Elder Yang-san to his quarters. Your answer today was most reasonable. You should experientially realize the saying of my late teacher. His late teacher was John John. Before the eyes, there are no things. That meaning is before the eyes. That is not something before the eyes, not in reach of eyes and ears.

[40:51]

And Lupo goes on, or ears and eyes, Lupo goes on, which phrases are guest and which phrases are host? If you can pick them up, I'll impart the robe and bowl to you. And Yang San said, I don't understand. And Lupo said, you should understand. And Yang San said, I really don't. And Lupo shouted and said, how miserable. And a monk who was there said, what is the teacher's meaning? I thought that other monk was like, what? And Lupo said, The boat of compassion is not rowed over clear, calm waters, excuse me, is not rowed over pure waves, over precipitous straits. It is wasted effort to set out a wooden goose.

[41:58]

And this wooden goose is a reference to boat people, fisher people, When they'd come to parts of the river that were like whitewater, kind of dangerous, they would set out pieces of wood, like a block of wood, and set it out. It was called a wooden goose that would float down the precipitous, you know, straits, and they could kind of follow the current and see what was safe, how to navigate. So Lupo says... The boat of compassion is not rowed over pure waves. Over precipitous straits, it is wasted effort to set out a wooden goose. So, this story, you know, to me it's Luke Pope,

[43:03]

saying to his group when he's about to die. Actually, Dang Sang did become a dominant successor in the lineage, which is probably why he's named, because often if that isn't, the person didn't become a disciple or a teacher later, it would just be a monk, you know, a monk said, an unnamed person. So Lupul is dying, and he says something very basic, you know. If this is so, then you're putting a hat on top of your head. And if it's not so, then you're cutting off your head to find life, seeking life. And to me, it's, You know, this is just my comments.

[44:05]

I think for the story to work, it's your relationship to it, or maybe you have no relationship to it or part of it or something about it. But anyway, Lupo had it on his deathbed, you know. To me, it's if you grasp onto this story, this truth in a substantial clinging way you're having a hand on top of your hand you're already completely codependently arising each moment with all beings that is the reality of your existence and if you say this in a clinging way It's adding.

[45:08]

You don't need to add. But if you say it's not so, which is kind of like nihilism and materialism or something, you're destroying your life, you know, in your attempt to find life. If you negate everything as empty, and he doesn't say that this is my commentary, If it exists, or if it doesn't exist, that's not going away. So, he puts that out, you know, and the chuseau who says the green mountain is always moving its feet. It's useless to hang a lamp in broad daylight. Earlier in Lu Po's career, he had said that.

[46:08]

Lu Po had said, the green mountain is always moving his feet. So here's, and this happens all the time, where we, we are unable to respond completely, maybe. So we, what is it called in another Quran? Dreg slurping. We do drag slurping. We grab somebody else's saying or from our own. And I admit to that. I acknowledge I have done that and will do that. And ashamedly so. Embarrassedly so. And I think that's what maybe this shoe so did. He brought up something his teacher had said another time and put it out like, Well, you said this has got to be right, so I'm going to stand now. But causes and conditions have changed. Everything's changed. For him to bring it up like that as this answer to this life and death question of how to live out the reality of our life.

[47:18]

And the teacher, what did he say? He said, what time is this to make such a statement? And then Yang Song, elder, called elder, maybe he'd been in chapter in the monastery for a while, basically says, just leave it alone, don't ask. Leaving both of these, just don't ask. Which seems kind of like, well, I don't know, is he avoiding it? Is it middle way? Is it, what is it? And Luke Paul, later, I mean, he said, it's very reasonable what he's saying. He said, you're not, it's not quite, now I can't speak again. And he said, I can't say it all. And the teacher said, I don't care if you can say it all or not.

[48:19]

It's like, I can't say it all is the truth. I can't say it all. He actually said the truth of our lives, which is, I can't say it all. And Lupo said, I don't care if you can't say it all. Then he said, this is kind of a cryptic part of the call for me, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. It's like my, I don't have a Jisha over here, or an Anja to answer for you. So, yeah, that phrase is, I have no comment about that phrase. But later, Lupo called the Anza to his room. He's dying, you know, I feel like, I don't know about desperate, but, you know, like when Kadir Hiroshi was dying, also a very, very painful death, he tried to dharma transmit eight people, and he was in severe pain.

[49:26]

I remember people telling me about that aspect. I think it was cancer. And he wanted to transmit to these eight disciples so strongly, you know. he died and he he did it but um in a uh abbreviated form and then it was completed later uh by others but you know he's dying and so lupo's dying he he calls yansakas he felt you know he said he had said not yet not yet is close right rather than why are you talking like this at all? Like he said to the Shusova, he said, not yet, say it again. Come on, come on, let's do it. And then Young says, I can't say no, which is kind of like a mosquito biting an iron bull, which is in our Shusova ceremony.

[50:29]

Only a mosquito biting an iron bull is the truth. We're like mosquitoes biting an iron bull with that little... teeny tiny what is it called proboscis proboscis proboscis this infinitely small proboscis like the teeniest tiniest acupuncture needle cannot get injured I can't say no and that you know when you say that it is I feel like that's the truth but we say it as if I should be able to And I can't, but we can't. Anyway, so he brings him to his room and says, your answer today was reasonable. And then he gives him this, this is a meditation instruction from his own teacher, which you can turn as a meditation instruction. Before the eyes, there are no things

[51:37]

The meaning is before the eyes. That is not something before the eyes, beyond the reach of ears and eyes. And then he says, pick out which of those phrases is host, and which is guest, samvritti, satya, differentiation, conventional host, and which is our Raktasatya, which is, you know, absolute. The first is guest, an absolute host, is to pick out before the eyes there are no things. The meaning is before the That is not sunken before the eyes, beyond the reach of eyes and ears.

[52:40]

So this is a meditation instruction. This is from his own teacher. I think he was transmitting to him, you know. Because he said, if you can pick out, I'll impart to you the Roman bowl, which is the Dharma transmission articles, you know, passing out of the Roman bowl. you know, gone through the lineage, which is still an act. And then Yang Tsung said, I don't understand. And Luke Poe said, you should understand. I don't know if he raised his voice or he whispered it, who knows. And Yang said, I really don't. And Luke Poe shouted, man, how miserable. And then miserable you know is just so much in there you know there's a Zen phrase you know what is the worst thing in the world for a Zen person to wear the robe and not understand the Greek meaning you know to to not understand to not have realized and him shouting

[54:05]

Miserable. And, you know, was it Yansang? It was your miserable or it's just miserable? And I'm dying. I'm dying. And you don't understand. And I don't have much time left. Anyway, then a monk says, what is the teacher's meaning? And he says this, the boat of compassion is not road over calm, pure waves. precipitous straits, it is useless to set out a wooden goose. And I, you know, I'm still turning that, you know. The boat of compassion is not rowed over pure waves. Yeah, it's choppy. There's white taps. If we think that, oh, compassion is just all lovey-dovey and nice sweetness and we... we will miss our compassionate heart, and it will be caught in the tyranny of niceness.

[55:13]

So there's the fierce compassion. It's not about being nice. And it's useless over precipitous straits to try and think that I can kind of pre... pre-work it out in a formulaic way, how I'm gonna navigate these straits, it's useless to set out this wooden goose, this block of wood, and think, okay, now I'll just follow that. That we'll miss our life, we'll miss connecting in compassion with all beings. Is there Luke Poo about to die? Come on. Case 41. And this thing about the wooden goose, you know, I was reading in one of the handouts I gave you where the Prince Samaya tries to trap the Buddha up by saying, you know, don't you always use e-daring?

[56:33]

does the Buddha use a daring speech all the time, thinking he would say yes, and then he'd say, well, what about when you spoke to deva-doctor so strongly, that story that I mentioned in class. Well, in that same part of the canon, the Buddha is asked, when somebody asks you a question, and somebody asks me this in notes, when you're, relating with other people. Do you kind of work out ahead of time how you're going to respond? That's like sending out a wooden goose over the streets, over the precipitous streets. Do you kind of work it all out and then just follow that? I don't think there's much spontaneity. There maybe isn't inquiry and response in that. And the Buddha said, No, I don't.

[57:35]

I don't pre-work. If they were to ask me this, I will say that. And I think this. Oh. Oh. That can happen sometimes where people have a kind of set thing that they say when asked. Thus they say this thing. And the Buddha said, No, I don't do it. I don't do that ahead of time. I don't know exactly how it says it, but it's something like, yes, I did bring it, I did bring it. Lord, would wise nobles or Brahmins, householders or contemplatives, having formulated questions, come to the Tathagata and ask him, Does this line of reasoning appear in his awareness beforehand?

[58:40]

If those who approach me ask... And then this is what the person is saying. Do you think in this way? If those who approach me ask this, I then ask will answer in this way. Or does the Tathagata come up with the answer on the spot? He's asking about spontaneity. It's a good thing for anybody to think about. Do I get prepared? What if he asks me this? I have a set thing. And the Buddha says, in that case, Prince, it's a prince, I think his name is, is asking. In that case, Prince, I will ask you a counter question. Answer as you see fit. What do you think? Are you skilled in the parts of the chariot? Yes, Lord, I am skilled in the parts of the chariot. And what do you think when people come and ask you, what is the name of this part of the chariot?

[59:44]

Does this line of reasoning appear to your awareness beforehand? If those who approach me come and ask about this, then I'll answer in this way, or does it come up with the answer on the spot? And he said, I'm Renowned for being skilled in the parts of a chariot. All the parts of the chariot are well known to me. I come up with an answer on the spot. In the same way, Prince, when wise nobles or Brahmins, householders and contemporaries, having formulated questions, come to the Tathagata and ask him, He comes up with the answer on the spot. Why is that? Because the property of the Dhamma is thoroughly penetrated by the Tathabita. Even his thorough penetration of the property of Dharma.

[60:46]

See, from his thorough penetration of the property of the Dharma, he comes up with the answer on the spot. So that's it. A good question about what is spontaneity. I think the Buddha is a vessel of the Dharma. And through our practice life and our study and our study of the self, when asked, the Dharma comes up to meet that question. We didn't have to pre-meditate it, formulate it, be ready, well, what if they ask me this? I should say that. It comes up to meet. So we don't need to send out what it goes. We just need to do our fully, you know, continuously practice study the self.

[61:53]

So I am sitting Can we take a couple questions? Or are we ready to end? Can we go for a walk? Yeah, we could go for a walk today. That sounds good. Yes? I just had a comment. I was thinking of polling. You know, polling for the elections as a wind goose. Thinking that up. Yeah, so what are causes and conditions and how they arise and how inconceivable suffering and et cetera comes up in the world as well as joyous things and these causes and conditions we can't predict. Yeah. And then we have our relationship to results.

[62:55]

What are the causes and conditions? relationships. And I just find it interesting you brought that up. It's one of my favorite parts of that story that I remember studying it with Rep. Yes. Seemingly a year or two. I just find it so helpful. So thank you for inviting me. Thank you. Thank you. That's so interesting. Polling, which the way it was too precipitous, the straits, it didn't, it didn't, um, It was not something that could be followed. And I think the thing of both suffering and joy arise. And getting caught in either as substantive condition, co-production of joys and sorrows and finding our way

[63:58]

precipitous streets. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it struck me as when you're talking about the wooden goose and the people on the raft going down the river, that by the time you need the wooden goose, it might be too late. You know, you throw it out there. What if the wood goose gets smashed? You know, you're kind of already out there. Yeah. And yeah, it just kind of resonated having difficult conversations. You know, like I've read that book, Difficult Conversations. And sometimes, though, you know, the rapids are too swift. And before you know it, you know, the book is, like, back in my room, and I'm here. Or, you know, the wooden goose is, like, 30 feet ahead, and it just smashed, and here I'm headed toward it. It's like, okay, so I'm going to get smashed, too. Yeah. In the commentary about the wooden goose, it said there's a place on the river where they hold up before... hang down, you know, they send out the wooden goose from there. So they're, but you're right, it's like, do they just have to pull the boats out of the water there if, you know, is that, how do they go on?

[65:12]

If they see that the wooden goose goes awry, yeah. That quality in conversations where this is not going well, you know, and we can't, kind of take it back and it sometimes gets faster and faster if you can take until yeah you talked about the leaves on the roof the leaves on the roof and then all the associations that come up so when the Buddha says to Bahia in the hearing with their only be the hearing does that mean the associations aren't arising uh that you know that meditation instruction in the hearing let there be the hearing i think uh yeah but i don't know if you can force the associations to not come up i think they do arise but it's not following after them and going with them i think

[66:19]

not letting that become a discursive thought, but it is, it arrives. It's like we can't plug the ears, and our, from the alaya comes an association, you know, that goes with it, and have it end there. Or, I suppose also in meditation, or if you're, that the association may not come up. Yeah. I think if it does come up, I'm kind of just going with this, if it does arise, it arise and manage. You let it go. And also it could just be sound. And I think, you know, when I first heard it, I didn't know what it was the other day. I thought, is it raining? You know, it wasn't leaves or... that song about bottom leaves falling or any of the other associations that came later, it was kind of like, what is it?

[67:30]

What is it? So, I don't know if that answers. Yeah. Mohammed? Yeah, I was wondering, how does our understanding of emptiness influence our moral life? Our moral life? each of the precepts and all of our ethical conduct has a, you know, there's a conventional understanding of it, and there's the ultimate understanding and the compassionate understanding of each precept. I mean, I was talking with someone about the precept, for example, of not to kill, and in our not killing life, the Buddha seed, tree seed grows, transmit the life of Buddha, and do not kill.

[68:33]

So, on the one side, we have that practice. We carry insects out of the Zendo. Instead of stamping on them, although somebody this summer was very concerned about being here because he said, people were swatting mosquitoes. Don't they know? Is this a Buddhist temple? Why are they squatting? It was like really upset. Anyway, so there was that effort to not kill. And then the ultimate understanding is that, and I say this with great care because this is exactly the place where misunderstandings can cause great harm. Because the ultimate is nothing, nothing is killed. Nothing can't be killed in the oneness.

[69:36]

There is nothing separate from us that can't be killed. The Buddha's life is not to kill. That's what it is. But if you say to somebody, this was using that kind of dharma teaching was appropriated and used in nefarious ways, you know. So the ultimate one has to talk about it with people who are having practicing, who are initiated to some degree into these teachings, and if it's bandied about in a casual way, it can be completely misunderstood. Because the ultimate teachings, or ultimate truths, conventional truths, do not negate each other.

[70:39]

Without completely understanding our conventional life together, we can't realize the ultimate. So there are difficulties that cannot rise. I think so. do I think like that person who after hearing this was in Colombia when we went on the Buddhist delegation and some of you know this story we visited this neighborhood that had been terrible things had happened where young people had been disappeared and killed before their mother's eyes and terrible, terrible, terrible things. And we met with mostly mothers, actually, that they said, and they told us what happened. They shared it.

[71:41]

We cried together. And afterwards, when we went back to this Buddhist group that we were visiting, somebody in the group said, well, We were sharing what we had done on the delegation, and someone said, it's all empty. After we had, you know, after this grief, this unspeakable grief with these mothers, and they had told us, and that took like, it's all empty. What's the big deal? That kind of cruelty, and also misusing sexuality and other things because we're all one anyway. What's the big deal? It's using it in a way, using the Dharma teachings for one's own because of ignorance or one's own gratification. Yeah.

[72:44]

Thank you. Okay, well, let's set out into the fall. Yes, Yasmin? Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Yes. Yes. And then I was about upright writing. Writing. And then I noticed that I'm conditioned to write on 45 degrees. Perhaps a little bit funny. So I learned it at school. And I thought... There are culture who write on this side. Our culture write upright. We are trained to write on this side. And I made the experiment and changed my writing and tried to write upright. And I noticed that I could put the sheet of paper in front of me.

[73:45]

I took another poster. I must read the opera. Of course, I was very slowly, because I'm used to write very fast at this time. And it was so funny that there's so much change in me just of this little experiment. And most Asian cultures are really upright. They write upright. Yes, interesting. I appreciate your kind of taking that word upright into the quality of your writing. I think, I mean, the actual forming of the characters, forming of the letters, I think the uprightness is whether or not, as you're writing, what words you're choosing, whether that's coming from what kind of intention and the meaning of the words. Although our handwriting can say a lot about our state of mind, but I don't think

[74:50]

I wouldn't say that slanting penmanship, you know, slanting letters necessarily means you're not upright in your writing practice. Yes, I agree. But there is an intention to write on this side. Your posture, it goes up. Your body changes. Your posture is not natural. It's not... Yes, so it sounds like by changing your posture, the quality of just that action of writing changed considerably more mindfulness, more awareness of the words as well, not just the shape of the letters. I think, you know, after session, there's a Dharma event scheduled, and we will be doing shakkyo, which is writing practice. which, with sumi ink and brush, and we'll be copying characters, and you do take an upright posture, an upright, you know, very physical posture as part of doing those characters, so we'll get a chance to do that.

[76:10]

Thank you. Yes, Nate? Yes, yes, yes. Immediately that made me think of, you wouldn't say that if my writers were here. You wouldn't say it if what? Like a response to someone who's like, they're sort of having a parlance, like, insulting each other back and forth. One person said, well, you wouldn't say that if my writers were here. Meaning, if I had someone who read out something quick and waited for me ahead of time, that I could throw back at you, if you'd really throw up that, or it just came off that leap on the spot. So it... Uh-huh, uh-huh. I'll have to turn that a little bit. I have no rejoinder, is that the word? I have no comment to that. I have to think about it more, what you said. Yeah.

[77:15]

Yes, Bahin? What is it when the teacher is dying and want to transmit the teaching, if we call it compassion, But the student wants to learn that the student before dies, you call it clinic. You call it what? Clinic. Clinic. I don't know if we can say we can always call it clinic. You know? The student is longing out of compassion for the many to understand and realize Buddha's way. Please teach me. Is that clinging or not clinging? I don't know. Thank you. I'm saying goodbye now. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[78:21]

Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge. and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[78:37]

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