Welcome. This is the Wednesday Dharma Talk with San Francisco Zen Center. Speaker for the evening at the invitation of the head of practice is joining us from Green Gulch, Sonja Garten Schwartz. Sonja began practice in 1981, came to SFZC in 91, and since then has practiced continuously at Green Gulch Farm, Tassajara, Zen Mountain, the two. She received the precepts in 1995 and wish you so, the head student at Tassahara in 2003. In 2012, Sonia ordained with attention Brad Anderson. Sonia, thank you so much for joining. And for everyone, we'll begin with the Sutra opening verse whenever, Sonia, you are ready. Please stand along with microphones muted. surpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma, is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million Kalpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words.

[10:59]

Sonia, I'm sorry to say I'm not yet able to hear you. It looks like you're unmuted, but I don't hear audio yet. Bear with us, please everyone. hearing a little something Sonia did you hear can you hear me now okay I can hear you now okay well that was an exciting beginning can you hear me great okay well this is uh

[13:46]

This is very interesting. On my way, as I was thinking about this talk this evening, a song from my childhood or a verse from my childhood came to mind. And I decided I would start with that and see where that goes. And then we can see what that has to do with Zen. And some of you may be familiar with it. When I was just a little girl, I asked my mother, what will I be? Will I be pretty? Will I be rich? Here's what she said to me. Of course, if I had a voice, I could sing this. But que sera, sera. Whatever will be, will be. The future's not ours to see. Que sera, sera. So then we move. to China, Tang Dynasty, and Zen master Yunmen.

[14:51]

And a monk asked Yunmen, and he said, asked the teacher, Master, what is the teaching of the Buddhas and ancestors? And Yunmen replied, an appropriate response. And moving from China, we go to Turkey and a Sufi story. And an enthusiastic devotee was searching out a Nasruddin who was also known as a master for his wisdom. And he found him in a marketplace and he said, Master Nasruddin, I have a very important question for you. It's something that all of us want to know. What is the secret of happiness? And Nasruddin thought for a while, and finally he said, judgment. And the students said, ah, yes, judgment.

[15:56]

How do you get judgment? Oh, no, I got this story wrong. See, you never know. He asked Nasruddin, what is the most important point to happiness? And he said, experience. And the student said, how do you get experience? And he said, judgment. And then let me look at my story here. No, he said judgment. How do you get judgment? He said experience. And how do you get experience? Bad judgment. So I should have read that story to you instead of just trying to remember it, but I didn't. Basically and fundamentally in my life, I'm a conversationalist. So I'm starting the conversation with these three stories. We don't know. We would like to have an appropriate response.

[16:57]

And we get this through judgment. Tonight, I start the conversation, and I hope that you'll join me in the conversation later. And the three points I'd like to bring up that we can remember tonight are awareness, assumptions, and actions. And we've just completed this wonderful series with Reverend Ryushin Poller on the Satipatthana Sutta on awareness. And our awareness is our zazen practice. And in our zazen practice, Suzuki Rossi suggests in his most important, one of his most important points is the blank white screen. Our life is a movie. And what's important, the movie is our assumptions. And what's important is to go back to settling into that blank white screen.

[18:00]

And in the middle of that blank screen, assumptions and our stories arise and out of those assumptions which come from our conditioning becomes our actions and out of these actions we get either our good judgment our bad judgment our bad judgment in my case would be oh this was not the appropriate response this was this did not meet the moment back to my experience, my awareness. Where was I coming from? What was the assumption? Recently, I was speaking with someone and, or actually I was giving out assignments and I was in a hurry and I thought, oh my God, I've just got to get through this. And someone came up to my left side and I turned to them and I just said, what?

[19:05]

What do you want? And they kind of got a little shocked. And I realized that in that moment when I was not in my presence, I was kind of sharp. It was not an appropriate response. My good fortune was that they came back later and said to me, that was an ouch. So I got my experience and I said, I'm sorry. I was rushing. I was in a hurry. I did not take the time to stop and see you. That was a training for me, and I notice whenever I'm rushing, this is when I get into a difficulty. If I return to my presence, my awareness of where are my two feet, Where am I? What am I doing? And where am I going? I have an opportunity.

[20:08]

So in this midst of this awareness, assumptions and actions, lately, as I've been walking around Green Gulch, I've been really intrigued with trees. And I've been thinking of the trees as a metaphor for my life and for our practice. And the trees, these amazing trees, are held up by these and supported by these roots. And these roots connect with other trees. And in redwoods, actually, what happens is they are very shallow roots and they help each other stand up. How I'm understanding these roots right now and what I'm studying with Tenshin Roshi is the precepts. These precepts lead to our actions in the world. And this amazing trunk, these glorious trees, the trunk is my body, my body in the world and my presence. And how about the branches?

[21:12]

The many things that we do in our life, in our daily life, our work practice, our engagement, our conversations are these branches. many branches, and they're supported by the roots. When we get back to Zazen and sit down in our awareness, we have a chance to grow these roots that come up through this body, and then we get these branches, these ways of being and flowering and fruiting in the world. Lately, I've been, in terms of this awareness, assumptions, and actions, I've been working a lot with pain. And the pain body, returning to the root of just stopping, pausing, and breathing, finding my place before I take the next step, allows me to find what will be my right action.

[22:22]

in the next moment. So this story of whatever will be will be, we don't know the future. The question is, am I willing, are we willing to step into curiosity? Am I willing to step into I don't know? And with what will I step into that I don't know? What is it that's going to support me Is it not harboring ill will? Is it not taking what is not given? Can I pause and understand what will be the appropriate response? Can I understand what it is that will be the most helpful? What is it that's in my awareness of who's in front of me?

[23:26]

What's happening? What's being requested? Can I stop? What am I assuming? What will I do? In recent times, again, I was moving too fast. And... I made an assumption about a relationship that I had with someone. And I took a chance and stepped over a boundary. And the feedback was intense. And now I have to go back and look, what was my conditioning that came up in that assumption? And now, how will I move forward? With what energy, with what respect will I move forward to meet this person and, again, try to reconnect in a conversation?

[24:35]

Awareness. Assumption. Action. Those are my three A's for tonight. Awareness. Zazen. Mindfulness. Presence. Assumptions. Precepts that support my life. Taking my time. Listening. Listening to you. To the birds. to the earth with care. What will be my next step? Will it be an appropriate response? Will I learn from my good judgment, from my meeting moment? Will I learn from my missteps? Breathing in, not dwelling in body-mind.

[25:55]

Breathing out, not attached to the myriad circumstances. Breathing in, the Zen master says, where are you going? say on pilgrimage. I'm going through my day, I'm going through my life. What is the purpose of pilgrimage? I don't know. But what will be the appropriate response? He says, not knowing, that's the case, not knowing is the most intimate. We don't know, but we bet our life, my life, on caring and in understanding my conditioning and moving forward. So what I'm noticing right now in terms of my awareness is that was a very rocky beginning for me, not knowing if I was going to be able to speak with you, not knowing where we were going to go.

[27:14]

Was this going to work? Would I find some comfort in his pain body so that I could sit still and meet you? I don't know. But I sat right here in the middle of not knowing and waiting to see what would arrive. I'm trusting my instinct. I'm trusting my intuition. I'm trusting you. I'm trusting you. To stay in conversation, not only with me and with each other, but with yourself. When I sit in Zazen. Okay, here we come, confession. I'm having a conversation with myself. I'm meeting myself. Conversation happens with one, two. three, or many.

[28:15]

Awareness, conversation. Awareness, assumptions. Conversation with myself. Next step. I think for tonight, because I'm feeling a little like, hmm, that I'd like to have you join me in a conversation, if you're willing. I'd like to understand what From you, where have your assumptions led you? How are you working with them? Where has this wonderful experience we've had with Paul Haller on the Satipatthana Sutta led us? One of the words that Paul has used over the years that completely works for me is, how is this registering? Can you let this register?

[29:18]

What is registering for you? What is registering for me? If I'm in my awareness, I can check and see what is registering, what am I assuming, and what will I do? I think those are my three words for tonight. And I would like to open it now to an exchange with the community. If anybody has anything they'd like to add. Thank you. Thank you, Sonia. We'll transition with the bodhisattva vows and then give a moment for questions to bubble up. Yes. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way.

[30:27]

Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. So I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become. Please, if you would like to participate in the conversation, feel free to raise a Zoom hand and I can help to unmute you. As always, a reminder of our practice to move up and move back. Oh, I see Nancy. Thank you, Nancy. Hi, Sonia. Hi, Nancy. Can't raise my hand because I'm a co-host. So you know how in this Zoom world that works. But I was thinking of my question and I was trying to figure out how to raise my hand.

[31:30]

And then I heard Miles say, oh, I'm going to raise my hand. And I said, no, no, I'm going to go first. So it's so wonderful to see you, Sonia. Thank you for joining us from Green Gulch. And I wanted, when you were saying, when you were calling us into this conversation, what came up for me was I saw how when you couldn't, you weren't figuring out your sound, I saw my assumption that I'm ultimately responsible for the Dharma talk. And how that thought creates stress and cuts off, creates separation. So rather than thinking I'm in this all together with everyone, I have the thought I am responsible.

[32:32]

And then I think, oh, am I going to have to step in? Now am I giving the Dharma talk? You know, I see how quickly... My mind goes and it's not a creative process because it's a separating thought. So I appreciate the reminding or you're leading us through this, the pause, seeing, what the assumption is in the moment and what actions that is going to lead me to. So I really, I appreciate the query as David was calling on Saturday, the queering, but the query right there that happens right there.

[33:36]

And And I appreciate you and you being here tonight. So thank you, Sonia. I appreciate what you're bringing up. And I realize I don't think I was tracking it in the moment because I also was like, oh, my God, was there something I was supposed to do that I didn't check out? And it kind of it sort of rattled me. And I thought, is this not going to work? And yeah, it was really, I think my assumption was to kind of move forward and it probably would have been better just to pause again and get connected with all of you and get connected with the moment. So yeah, thank you for noticing that. And I was aware that before this talk started of how much pain I was in.

[34:38]

And I thought, Oh my God, I can't, am I going to have to call Nancy and say, somebody has to do this. So, but you know, the story moved on. It was one movie screen that we all had, had one and it moved on. Yeah. Thank you very much for opening this. Yeah. I hope you're not in too much pain right now. Right at the moment. I'm not. Miles, I muted you there just so that the feedback loop could stop and

[35:40]

I'll unmute you again. Okay. Nancy left the building, or the room at least. Hi, Sonia. Hi, Miles. I'm going to go off the menu. I don't know if this answers your question or asked the question, but it made me think of a story that Paul told me, probably in Dokusan, of somebody that during Uriogi in Tassahara dropped a full bowl of almonds on the floor while they were serving. I think if you've ever done that, you can imagine how probably I I would project humiliation. And he said that the person just walked outside, got a dustpan in a room and just swept them up. And so that's what I aspire to. And and I think it's revealing that it's such a simple story that Paul remembers and speaks to.

[36:42]

And I appreciated how you fixed the problem and then just came back and spoke. And my concern was just, is Sonia okay? And so I would, yeah, I would just, as a community, I would hope that we would just support each other and figure it out together. So, yeah. Yeah, so that's all I wanted to say. I don't know if that's just a story, so I'll just leave it at that, and you can make a comment if you like. Actually, I'd like to, if it's okay, I'd like to match that story. And I don't think that, I don't know who everybody on the screen, I don't think any of you were at Tassajara when this happened, but I'm not sure. And I aspire to this as well. So you've given me an aspiration story.

[37:45]

We were having an oreoche meal. And we were having miso soup for breakfast. And it was a really good miso soup. And at some point, the soku went over to the tenzo and whispered something into the tenzo's ear. And the Tenzo and the Soku just bowed to each other like this. And then when seconds came around, the Soku said, there'll be no seconds for the second bowl. And that was it. And then we found out at work circle. No, so one part's missing here. Somebody called the soku over and gave them their oryoki bowl. And then the soku went to the tenzo.

[38:45]

Well, it turns out what we found out at work circle is that there was a mouse in the miso soup. And the person had gotten served a mouse in their bowl. So that was the mauso miso soup story. And everybody was fine. Health department was called, et cetera. But what was... just in the story that you're telling me now, what was inspiring to me is that the Soku just calmly walked over, said something to the Tenzo. The Tenzo didn't flinch. And we all just went along with the meal to find out later. So what would it be to just calmly receive the information and then see what comes next? So thank you for that story. And I'm... It's an interesting story that happens only one time. Yeah.

[39:47]

Thank you, Sonia. Yeah. I see Joe. Well, it's good to see you. It's been a long time. Hi. I wanted to ask you about, you mentioned something about the pain body. And I wanted to ask you if you could say more about that because I've dealt with a lot of illness and a lot of pain over the last year. It's also brought up a lot of emotional pain for me and also for my wife. And so I was going to ask you how you approach that. Yes. When you say emotional pain, so is it pain body and then that brings up emotional pain? Is that what you're suggesting? Well, yeah. You wonder, you know, when you have something chronic, is this going to last for the rest of my life? Is this going to ruin my life? You know, is it hurting my relationship with my wife?

[40:49]

You know, she has to help me all the time. And so in addition to the physical pain, there's the emotional pain. And so I wanted to ask you, you know, how you deal with that. I don't know what the pain is for you. Yeah. You know, my experience, my personal experience with the pain, I'll say the emotional pain comes, what I notice when I get sort of impatient, irritated, upset, depressed, whatever's going on, it's usually attached to this shouldn't be happening this way, or why me, or is this going to last forever? I mean, that's That's my mind running into the future. And that actually, what I noticed, what I've noticed is that that makes me kind of tense up, which then creates more pain, which creates more response.

[41:57]

And, you know, it kind of builds from there. And the other day when I was out driving, I... I was having a lot of difficulty. I was having some amount of difficulty with the pain. And I thought, please, speaking to myself, the self-conversation, please take your time. Let other people go. There's no hurry. And if you get in a car accident, you're going to be in more pain. And then you're just going to wish you had this pain again. So there's something about just appreciating, I think just appreciating where it is and slowing down, slow down, slow down, keep breathing. And I have sometimes thought, yes, this is just kind of an acceptance. Yes, this actually might be my life.

[42:57]

And how am I going to walk with it? Who can I ask for help or support? And can I be patient and kind? Can I take my time? Can I be patient and kind and move slower and not try to be the person I was before? Now. And quite frankly, sometimes I don't know what pain you're working with, but sometimes the pain goes into the background then. Sometimes my pain goes into the background when I don't add, this is not what should be happening. This is what's happening. Stop moving. Stop wiggling. Stop trying to get away from it. Anyway, I don't know if that's helpful, Joe. Maybe that's too many words, but can you say how that registered for you?

[44:04]

Yeah, I mean, those are exactly the thoughts that come up. Oh, why me? It's not fair. You know, this could ruin my life. This could ruin my relationship. And of course, it's all taking it too far, taking the pain that's present and projecting it into the future as destroying my whole, you know, destroying Joe and my marriage, et cetera. And when I think in terms of, OK, this is the situation. How do I deal with it most intelligently? How do I deal with it in the best possible way? How can I solve this? Can it be solved? What can I do? What research can I find? And so on. And try to stay calm. I remember what Jon Kabat-Zinn said about don't identify with your pain. Don't think of it as being your whole life. And that helps. I want to share one more thing with you that's kind of in the awareness assumption or pause.

[45:13]

And I have found this to be really helpful in many ways. So this part of your hand here fits. I'm just going to do it on one side, but I do both. This part of your hand fits very nicely right here at the bottom of your eye, your cheeks. And your fingers just rest calmly and quietly and gently on your head. Because there's a lot of happening. There's a lot of movie happening in there when you're having this. Is this my life? Is this going to go on? Is this going to ruin everything? And this kind of gives yourself a little kindness and generosity and pause. And you can even sweep. Sweep the ground. Just stop for a minute. And yeah, just come back to zero.

[46:20]

With kindness and wonder. And then breathing. And then see what happens. This has been a great gift. And then if you sweep it away, you can kind of flick it away too. Yeah. Anyway, thank you. I hope you find your path. Thank you. I see two hands left. I see about eight minutes left on the Eno's clock. So we may have time to have an exchange with both. Terry. Hi, Sonia. Nice to see you. Good to see you. I've never seen you before or heard you talk, but I'm... Oh, wait a minute.

[47:25]

My camera is off. Oh, there we go. Okay. All right. Yeah. So I'm not sure if... This applies to anything you said, but I'd like your whatever wisdom you might have about this. I've been working. I'm studying the Tibetan slogans, and I'm working. I'm very focused on number 31, which is don't malign others. And I'm finding it very, very difficult to stop maligning others. It's a tremendous way of bonding with people. It's fun. Anyhow, I just wonder if you have any wisdom that you can share with me about that would help me.

[48:26]

I do feel I've made progress, but it's a big deal. Thank you for... That's a wonderful question. And it reminds me of a few things. So I really appreciate the question. And one is Ed Brown complaining to Suzuki Roshi. You might be know that story. And Suzuki Roshi says, if you want to have a peaceful mind, you have to see virtue in people. So that's one thing. The other thing that I had been thinking about for this talk is is that our minds are registering, supposedly our consciousness is registering, depending on who you read, either 11 million or 40 million bits of information in a moment. And what we're actually registering is 40 to 60 bits. So what that means is that there's a lot going on in us and with us.

[49:34]

And in others and with others than we actually can know about. So the question is, okay, even in my worst moment, is that all of me? Is that all of them? And another kind of sad story, but a bad judgment story on myself. And I'd like to hear from Catherine, so I've been trying not to talk too much. is I had this experience at Tassajara of speaking to someone, and I did ageism and foreigner on them. And I used my kind of superiority mind or whatever. And they were giving me an instruction, and I thought, just to be short, what did they know? And she said, please just do what I asked you. So I did, but I was kind of pissy.

[50:38]

And then I thought, I wonder who this person really is. Like I had this whole story on them and I got to know them and all my word, their beauty, they became a very good friend. Their beauty just opened up. So it's true. You can kind of join with others in aligning, but yeah, It's not the whole story. You're only getting 40 or 60 bits. And I wouldn't want people to know me, my only me, in my worst moment. Anyway, I don't know what that would be for you to open your heart and to be curious. Thank you. Thank you. That's very helpful. Maligning pivots on virtue. Thank you, Terry. Catherine.

[51:43]

Thank you. Can you see me? I can see you. Hi, Catherine. You asked us how we were practicing with the Satipatthana Sutra. And it's been thoroughly amazing for me to do. I've been sitting Zazen for a long time without it. And the direction of it and the textures that come up for me are really, really wonderful. So what I have observed, and so it's very explicit, and working with what is internal and what is external and what is coming and what is going, when I think of how I have been in relationship to the interval bell over the years,

[52:55]

And, you know, when you're just starting Zazen and you're waiting for the interval bell or and then it becomes the place where maybe you're not waiting for it, but still, you know, oh, I can stretch my legs a little bit and maybe I'll do that little micro adjustment that's been bugging me. You know, it's a place for, you know, taking care of your aches and pains, but not in a very intentional way, really. And then it became a time where compassion for myself would enter. You know, you hear that sound of the bell and it becomes a reminder, not a break. And at the sound of the bell, I eventually started to do what I had.

[53:58]

I'm kind of, you know, a diehard, right? So to take care of myself, you know, I would start to put my hands on my chest and just continue to sit zazen and releasing the cosmic mudra and putting. And now I know that this would be lovely, you know. And then during this period of time working with Paul on the Satipatthana Sutra, it's kind of in a directed way, you know, like I've been given this instruction and this instruction is one that I can feel is to enlarge. And so it's like a stretching, but it's not like a stretching. It's something, I don't know, it's hard to describe because the grace and the intention are together.

[54:59]

And so in the interval bell, I now, that compassion that was directed for myself, I hear everyone moving in the zendo. And it's like that same warm feeling is more external. I can hear and feel people standing or just that rustle of movement in a way that I wasn't before. So it's curious to me that this kind of deliberation the intention in this practice and how specific it can be. Because what I've just said is really kind of specific, you know, but also at the same time, so deeply personal and how it, this pull, you know, from the internal to the external has so many

[56:14]

textures, like just the way to speak about Zazen has kind of changed. And so I'm curious about that, that shift. Yeah. So that's part of the conversation. That's the conversation you're having with yourself and with others. We have the conversation with ourselves. is also how we'll have it with others. So that kindness and compassion that you do there, you can do out there. And then if we're worried or fearful or tight or constricted, we may have those conversations with other people. And that kind of can challenge a relationship. Joe brought that up earlier. So that inner conversation, that ability to be kind, And gentle and generous over here emanates out there.

[57:17]

So that subtle body awareness that you brought in is then has the possibility of shining out. It's, yeah. And I just want to say, I know I heard from... got a message from somebody that y'all like to finish in a timeframe. So I'm willing to keep going, but I think I want to see where we are with those that are in charge. And maybe Catherine could have a capping phrase, a short capping phrase. Would you like to? Is there time? There's always time for a closing comment, says the Eno. Do you want to have a capping phrase, Catherine?

[58:20]

Okay. Breathing in my care reaches deeply. Breathing out My love spreads through everyone. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you, Sonia. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you to the assembly. What a joy. We do like to allow the monks to sleep. We keep a little tighter timeline on a Wednesday evening. I believe we'll go to bed. Thank you everyone for being here. Thank you, Sonia. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sonia. Thank you, Sonia.

[59:22]

Thank you for joining me in the conversation. Keep it going. Good night, Sonia.

[59:35]

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