This podcast is offered by San Francisco's Zen Center on the web at sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to Zen Center. For those who are visiting, my name is Shundo. And when I wondered what to say about myself, the thought came up, I used to be somebody here. In fact, the point was to try not to be somebody here, but sometimes it couldn't be helped. So I lived here for about 10 years in the building and another five years at Tassajara. And I see there are some people who are here from Tassajara who've just been sprung from practice period. And I think you're very valiant and please enjoy your vacations. So I was Tenzo here. I was in charge of the kitchen. I was the Eno doing what Kim is doing now. And I was the director. And I left Zen Center at the end of 2015 to... go and find my way out in the world.

[01:00]

So it's been about two years since I gave a talk from this seat, and I'm very happy to be up here again, and thank you for David for fitting me into this slot. I did tell him last year, it's all right, you don't have to find space for me. I'm not that bothered about giving a talk, but suddenly I thought, no, I'd really like to give a talk. And most of the times I've been sitting up here recently have been to give Zazen instruction on Saturday morning, which is a really wonderful thing to do. It's kind of like our first offering to people who... come into the building. And I think it's obviously, you know, one of the most important things that we do is the core essential teaching of Buddhism is meditation. And offering that to people is a really great and wonderful thing to do. And the last time I was in this room was for Siobhan's Shuso ceremony about 10 days ago. And I also put on my robes on Sunday and went down to Tassajara and then put on my robes on Sunday to go to Tim's Shuso ceremony. And I was thinking that English shoe and I said this at the ceremony. I apologize for repeating myself for those who were there, but English shoe sewers are like buses.

[02:04]

You wait for ages for one to come along and then two show up at once. So I was very happy to get to do that. And the shoe-sew ceremony is kind of like the opposite end of the spectrum from zazen instruction. So from the very beginning of learning how to sit and learning the basic practices, the way I often describe a shoe-sew ceremony for my non-Zen center friends is it's like a teacher graduation ceremony. And really, I think that these two things are perhaps what Zen Center does best. We get people in the door and we show them the basic practice. And then we also launch teachers out into the world. So I'm now launched out into the world. I'm trying to do that for myself. But over the 50 or 55 years now that Zen Center has been in operation, we've launched so many teachers out into the world, hopefully to do good and to benefit all beings. There's a phrase that's been turning around in my head for a while, and when you give a talk, it's good to talk about things that are up for you at the moment.

[03:24]

And it's a phrase by Yunju, Chinese ancestor, who in Japanese is known as Ungodoyo, and he was a successor of Tozan Ryokai, who is very important in this lineage. He's the To in the Soto Zen. And Yunju's phrase is, you are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thusness, why be worried about thusness? I'm going to say that again because it's a little confusing perhaps. You are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thusness, why worry about thusness? And really there's nothing else to say after that and we can just sit here and do some zazen and that would be really great. But, you know, obviously the request of being up on the seat here is that you try to explain these things. I was reading a book by Banke, who's another Chinese ancestor, where he has an exchange with a lay visitor.

[04:28]

The lay visitor asks him some question about something esoteric. And Banke says, well, if you're asking the question and I give you the answer, you're not going to understand the answer. And by the time you figure out the answer for yourself, you're not going to need to ask the question. So some of these phrases, some of these Zen phrases can be a little bit like that. Either you're stuck on the outside trying to get in or it makes sense in a certain way and the whole thing just opens up and then you don't have a question about it. But still, I need to talk about something about this, I think. So I think we all start out in practice with the desire to get something, to learn something. We think, I want to be a person of verseness. And so we have the question like, How do I get there? I think this is the wrong question. But it's a question we have to ask ourselves. How can I get from where I am to this place, this enlightenment, this thusness that I'm hearing about? So we asked a question.

[05:30]

And when I was preparing a talk, somebody wrote to me and said, hey, what are you going to talk about on Wednesday? And I sent them the quote. And I got this response back from them. It's quite challenging, though, to close the gap between experiencing that one is this thusness and understanding it on a more cognitive level. And my response to them was, well, this is what we practice for. We close the gap between the understanding and the experience. And there's another Zen phrase that I'm very fond of from the Genjo Koan by Dogen, where he says, when you first seek Dharma, you imagine... You are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted. You are immediately your original self. So when you first seek the dharma, when you first come through the door, when you first want to have that kind of experience, you imagine you are far away from its environs. So you think it's somewhere out there that you have to go and find or go and get or get some grasp of.

[06:36]

But dharma is already correctly transmitted. You are immediately your original self. Now, that sounds great, but we don't believe it. And we don't believe it because we have ideas about who we are and what we are and that somehow we're lacking because most of us have layers of judgment and evaluations about ourselves. And generally, we're not too kind on ourselves most of the time. So we don't believe this about ourselves. And so we think, I have to get somewhere and I have to learn something. So even though... how do I get there is the wrong question. We still need a way to find out. I'm sorry, I have to keep putting my glasses on. I tried to print this large enough that I wouldn't have to. It's one of the problems with getting old, as some of you know already. It's a fairly new one to me. But if we have this desire to find out, we can use that as our motivation. And when I was thinking about motivation...

[07:38]

There are two kinds. Obviously, there's intrinsic motivation, which is what comes up inside yourself, and extrinsic motivation, which is what comes from outside. And intrinsic motivation, I think this is what we call way-seeking mind. And I think everyone who comes to this room, comes to this building, obviously has some kind of way-seeking mind. They're looking for the way. No matter how long we've been practicing, I think this is a lot of our intrinsic motivation, this way-seeking mind. And, you know, when I was reflecting on Wayseeking Mind, I thought of Suzuki Roshi's term, A Letter from Emptiness. So in the book, Not Always So, he gives a talk which is entitled A Letter from Emptiness. And he says, We have a term, Shōsoku, which is about the feeling you get when you receive a letter from home. Even without an actual picture, you know something about your home, what people are doing there, or which flowers are blooming.

[08:39]

That is shōsoku. Although we have no actual written communications from the world of emptiness, we have some hints and suggestions about what is going on in that world. And that is, you might say, enlightenment. So I think most of us have that kind of experience of just a little hint of something going on, or a little recognition, or some kind of energy that comes up from a place we don't even know about, maybe. but we have some sense that we're entering our true home, a place that we know very well deep inside ourselves. And I think zazen is a wonderful way that we can cultivate that and recognize it, allow it to grow. And I have a kind of a different experience of that as well from reading. So when I first lived at Tassajara, we have study hall in the morning after breakfast, and I set myself the challenge of reading the whole of the Shogo Genzo. And being Tassajara, I was pretty tired most of the time, and the material is pretty impenetrable.

[09:42]

And so generally I was just falling asleep and not reading it at all. But, you know, I persisted. And then when I came back and read it again a few years later, there was a little kind of energy that I had, like a little echo that I found inside me. And it was almost like a shiver in my spine from when I was reading it. So that became my intrinsic motivation to keep reading, even if I didn't understand it, which I definitely don't understand most of what I read in the Shobo Genzo. But just that little energy inside me felt like there was a trust that even if I didn't understand it, that it was true and it was worth reading. And so I continued to read and get that kind of energy and motivation. And now I do most of my Zen reading on the BAT to the East Bay three days a week. But I can still find that kind of energy and motivation from reading a good Zen book and kind of feeling this, you know, getting this information, just feeling that come into me. But extrinsic motivation is a different kind of thing.

[10:46]

It's dependent on some external prompting. So these days, you know, I don't come and sit every morning as I used to when I lived here. And so I tend to spend my mornings reading stuff online. And quite often I end up on Medium. And they have a page of most popular posts, and most of them seem to be how-to stories, or how-to-be-successful stories, or this is how you can make it. And just to pick one from a couple of days ago, it's like eight simple but powerful habits that will make you successful. And of course, when they say successful, what they actually mean is rich, which is maybe not some of our idea of successful, but that's generally what they're talking about. So A, you know, it may seem kind of easy. There's another one that says 50 ways to live on your own terms, which is like, well, somebody's telling you how to do this, so how is it on your own terms? But, you know, the point is, like, how much of this are you actually going to do? If you're just reading it and saying, oh, I have to do this and this and then this, it's kind of like going to the gym in January. Like, you know, yeah, you think you should get fit. It's the beginning of the year. It's time to get fit.

[11:47]

You're going to get in shape. But unless you really make it yours, unless you really make it your own internal motivation, just reading these things isn't going to do you any good at all. But there's kind of like a Zen version of extrinsic motivation. And for me, that was when I first came to live at Zen Center, was just looking at the people who had been practicing for a long time. And especially in those days when Blanche was the abbess, she was kind of the touchstone for this. She was this amazing figure who lived her practice day by day. And I looked at people who seemed grown up. They seemed to mature. They seemed settled and grounded. And In some cases, we're growing old with dignity and facing death with dignity as well. And so there's this kind of external motivation that we can get just from seeing other people who practice. And in Buddhism, we have this term kalyana mitra, or spiritual friendship. And there's a famous quote from the Pali Canon, where Buddha responds to Ananda, and Ananda is suggesting that spiritual friends are half of the holy life.

[12:54]

And Buddha says... Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the Holy Spirit. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and comrades, she can be expected to develop and pursue the Noble Eightfold Path. And I think this is really, you know, it's a wonderful opportunity that we have when we live at Zen Center to have this kind of spiritual friendship. And recently I was lucky enough to listen to a talk by Ananda Dahlenberg. It's a name that probably most of you don't know now, but he was a disciple of Suzuki Roshi, an ordained disciple. And in the talk he was explaining how, he talked about the concept of Kalyana Mitra and spiritual friendship. And he talked about Suzuki Roshi in ways that I've heard other people talk about him over the years. That really the Zen part was kind of incidental. and that most people just wanted to be around Suzuki Roshi because of what they saw, the qualities they saw in him, and how he made them feel.

[13:55]

And so when he said, okay, let's sit some zazen, it's like, sure, yeah, we'll sit some zazen. But I think in the talk he said, well, if he'd wanted us to stand on our heads, I think he probably would have stood on our heads. But it's worth reflecting that because Suzuki Roshi had that quality 50 years ago, we're all able to sit in this room right now. We're all able to be at this temple and practice in this way. So I think it's very important to think about the people who have these qualities and the effect that they can have. So for those of you who are living in that temple, make the most of your spiritual friends and make the most of your elders and allow them to inspire your practice. So one of the other things I tend to read quite often is Brad Warner, who has a very lively Zen blog. And he just recently posted something about his early days of practice. which speaks very much to the same thing. He said, I started doing zazen in my late teens. This is a time in everyone's life when establishing an identity takes on a kind of urgency.

[14:59]

So questioning the very concept of identity at that age is especially problematic. On the other hand, starting when I did may have had some advantages in that there was comparatively less to dismantle, but it sure wasn't easy. What happens after you do this You'd think you'd just turn into some kind of amorphous, identity-less blob. But I looked at my teachers and it was clear that exactly the opposite had happened with them. Both were very strong and clear personalities. But there was a naturalness to the way they manifested themselves that no one else I met. They were unconcerned with knowing who they were. Rather, they simply were who they were. So one thing I love about chouseau ceremonies is that it feels like you really get to see the person being the person they are, the chouseau who's up on the platform answering questions. They really get to be who they are. I mean, I don't know how many chouseau ceremonies I've sat through now, but that's the kind of quality that I always enjoy from being there.

[16:06]

And, you know, we had it with Siobhan here, and we had it with Tim. But the way you do that, I think the way that chouseau does it, is they're asked to fill a particular role. And so in a sense, they're not being themselves because they're being the chouseau. And at the same time, they're kind of emptying themselves out because in a ceremony, you have to just sit there and answer questions from everybody as they come. And if you're not completely empty in that moment, you're not going to give a very good answer. And for those of you who've been to them, you know that the current students are sitting over this side and the former chouseaus are sitting over on this side. So the chouseau gets to start with kind of the easier questions from the... from the junior students, and then they get over to this side. And my experience is the former shoe sewers, if they think that the shoe sewers isn't being kind of authentic and meeting the moment in the way they answer the questions, they're going to give them a really hard time. But if they feel that quality, and I think Siobhan had it and Tim had it, the former shoe sewers tend to be a little more gentle because then, yeah, this person is really being who they are. They're really being honest.

[17:08]

They're being authentic. They're completely meeting the moment. Most of us in this room, or most of you in this room, I have been chusso, I'm happy to say, but most of you may not get to be chusso. So how do you get to have that experience without being up on a seat and answering a lot of questions? How do we get to be really who we are? Of course, the answer to that is you cannot fail to be who you are, because you are who you are. But again, we have these ideas and judgments that seem to stop us from believing that. So that takes us from the Shusoh ceremony right back to the Zazen instruction. Because we don't necessarily have the eight-point plan for success or even a 50-point plan for success. We have Zazen. And it's a very simple practice. You sit down and you just try to be in the moment. You try to meet the moment completely. And those of us who've sat in Zazen know that there's a certain point in that where you may experience that you are just completely yourself, that your ideas have kind of floated away a little bit.

[18:16]

And you're not putting on so much judgment and evaluation. You're really just getting to be who you are. So when I'm offering zaza and instruction, I usually talk a lot about physical posture. And that's what many hours of sitting at Tassajara taught me over 10 practice periods. So when I started sitting, I was thinking, I'm just going to park my body here on a cushion and get to work with my thoughts. But eventually I realize there's a much more integrated process that happens. The body and the breath and the mind, and especially with the physical posture, and now I'm paying attention to my hands, like, wow, I'm really slumped over here. Okay. Physical posture, I always talk a lot about opening up this part of the body between the solar plexus and the sternum. So there's a way that we can meet the present moment, and the physical posture is really a part of that, I think, that helps us to kind of see the world and experience the world in a different way. And the wonderful thing about this practice is it's the practice that has been handed down all the way from Buddha to now.

[19:23]

And I think there's something incredibly trustworthy about that. So in my recent commutes, I've been reading a book by Katagiri Roshi, who came to help Suzuki Roshi in the 60s and then went to found a Zen Center in Minneapolis. And he writes wonderful books. And again, they're very dense. And so this one is one I've come back to a few times called Each Moment is the Universe. where he's commenting on Dogen's commentaries on time, and anyone who's tried to read Dogen's commentaries on time knows they're very difficult. But the way Kadagiri talks about it is very enlivening. And there was this passage I read the other day. Try to realize that you have already set yourself out in the vastness of the Buddha's world because you exist as a human being. So all you can do now is is make every possible effort to live in Buddha's world with a way-seeking mind. Usually we don't want to do this. If we step outside the familiar patterns of our lives, we're scared.

[20:24]

But we have to do it sometimes, so we should do it positively. This is very important for us. If we do it positively, we realize how great our capability is. That doesn't mean to become strong by expressing our ego. Expressing the ego seems to make us strong, but it is the complete opposite. And I really wish that someone could get that line over to the White House at the moment. I think that would be very helpful. He continues, In Zen monasteries, the ego is always being hit on the head, like pouring water over a burning fire. Immediately, nothing is left. It's pretty hard, but this is the way to become strong. So when I was down at Tassajara on Sunday, it was a really beautiful spring day. The creek was flowing. The trees were blossoming. The redwood was out there looking pink. And there was ceanothis and lupins on the road. It was incredibly beautiful. And as usual, I think, I really wish I was living here again. But I do love living at Tassajara.

[21:30]

And part of the reason why I loved it is it was very simple. And it was also usually a very physical experience. There's really not a lot to understand in Tassajara. There's a lot of doings. I used to do a lot of work with rocks, which is definitely just physical work. And I felt really happy for it. And even in the harder times, like in the first winter when I was there, when I was struggling with a monastic schedule, I was noticing I was feeling cold, tired, and hungry all the time. But those are just like physical sensations. There wasn't a lot of mental preoccupation there. And the great thing about Tassajara is that when you do the monastic schedule, the container that is created there is strong enough. And the amount of cells that we sit there, even though, as Kadagiri says, your ego is getting battered all the time. There's always ways you kind of come up against your own limitations or come up against other people. Even if you're in silence a lot of the time, you can still aggravate each other. You can withstand that because the container is such that you can really, really grow...

[22:36]

and become yourself through it. Now, I read something in the New Yorker yesterday, which I just wanted to add in here, because it also seems to speak to this. And it's by an idea from a British philosopher called Gilbert Ryle, who I hadn't heard of before. But apparently just after the Second World War, he gave an influential lecture about two kinds of knowledge. It says, a child, of course, I like this analogy, a child knows that a bicycle has two wheels. that its tires are filled with air, and that you rise a contraption by pushing its pedals forward in circles. So Ryle termed this kind of knowledge, the factual, propositional kind, knowing that. But to learn to ride a bicycle involves another realm of learning. A child learns to ride by falling off, by balancing herself on two wheels and by going over potholes. So Ryle termed this kind of knowledge, the implicit experiential skill-based knowledge, knowing how. So at Tassajara, especially, things aren't very complicated.

[23:38]

Like, here are the forms for Nenju. Here's how you clean the bathhouse. So pretty soon you can stop worrying about knowing that and get into the knowing how. And so you really do get to be there in the physical experience, in the embodiment experience. And that is a way that I find my brain gets out of the driver's seat. And any time my brain gets out of the driver's seat, I think it's really helpful. We get assigned certain roles. Maybe you're the shuso, or maybe you're the bathhouse attendant. But you get to do that, and you get to completely do that, and you get to make it yours, and you get to do it wholeheartedly. And, you know, in the famous phrases of Layman Pang from China, it's like the chopping water and the carrying wood. These are not just everyday activity, it's miraculous activity. But it becomes miraculous activity by embodying it, doing it wholeheartedly. And that's how We close that gap that I talked about at the beginning between understanding and experience.

[24:38]

So Lehman Pang also had a poem that I read recently where he says, mind is thus and objects are also thus. There is no true and also no false. Existence doesn't concern me, nor does non-existence hold me. I'm not a holy sage, but an ordinary fellow who understands things. I'll read that again. Mind is thus, and objects are also thus. There is no true and also no false. Existence doesn't concern me, nor does non-existence hold me. I'm not a holy sage, but an ordinary fellow who understands things. So we don't have to be Shuso to get to be ourselves, and we don't have to go to Tassahara. to have that experience, even though it is set up in a way that's beautifully helpful. We're about to chant in a few minutes, Dharma gates are boundless. So anything we do, it can be a Dharma gate.

[25:45]

Any moment we live, we can have that experience. Or as Dogen quotes Seppo as saying in the Shoho Jiso, the entire great earth is the gate of liberation, but people are not willing to enter. So for me, just even digesting the meaning of shouhou jisou, which variously comes as all things are ultimate reality or the reality of all things, just even digesting that phrase was one of those kind of little sparks that turned how I experienced the world. So instead of evaluating and judging everything, all things are part of this ultimate reality. So instead of like there is something out there that we need to grab, everything is arrayed around us. And we get to experience it. Or as you read in the Tenzo Kyokun, in the whole world it is never hidden. I think the first time I read that it was like a slap in the face. Like, what do you mean it's never hidden? We're looking for it. But what can we look for if we're told it's never hidden?

[26:48]

So we have the opportunity to meet the truth in each moment. So can we experience each moment of reality wholeheartedly? Can we trust that we are connected to everything rather than being separated from it as we conceive it to be in our heads? Which causes us to think we need to get somewhere or go somewhere to attain thusness. So somebody recently sent me an article which included the term ontological identification, which I think is the kind of Western way of describing what I'm trying to talk about. You know, I know... Fairly smart, and I know a lot of long words, but ontological is one which kind of like gets me stuck a little bit. But when I read like the Zen way of talking about it, or I practice the Zen way of talking about it, there's an ease I have in my body. So the words are not going to get there. The experience in the body is what's going to help you get there. So you are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness.

[27:55]

As you are already a person of thusness, why worry about thusness? So let's trust that. And if it's hard to trust it sometimes, let's just sit some zazen. So I'm not a great believer in talking long and letting people get tired, but if people have some questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Yes, Alex. What a terrible idea that was, eh? Now look at you. Are you a person of dustness? Are you? Trust that you are, Alex. Trust that you are. That's not the positive, Alex.

[28:59]

That's the reality. Yeah. There was a part of this talk that I didn't actually include in the final draft, which was talking about thinking you're a person of dustness doesn't give you a pass to be a complete whatever. Sorry, I'm not supposed to swear. I swore on a dharma seat once and I was told, don't do that. So yeah, it doesn't mean that you're some kind of faultless human being. And it's also not a good idea to think of your teachers as faultless human beings either. because you'll inevitably get disappointed, because we're all just human beings. But the thusness of ourselves as human beings includes all the ancient twisted karma. So if you're going to try and separate yourself from it, saying that's the bad stuff, I don't want to deal with it, I just want to be this, like, I'm a person of thusness, I'm pretty cool, you're missing, you're not getting the whole picture.

[30:05]

You have to include all the ancient twisted karma. And I've had this experience, especially since I've been a teacher, of like, You have to pay attention to this stuff. And you have to own it, and you have to not let it lead you down paths that are not beneficial and wholesome for people. But you bring all that into your own self, and you you know, when we talk about the shuso being exactly who they are, it's not just like the bright, shining stuff. It includes everything because everything is part of making them who they are. And there was a quote from Shihaku Okamura that I was also going to include in this, which I think went, we're all perfect from the very beginning and we're all imperfect at the very end. And that's kind of the contradiction of being human. There's a Suzuki Roshi version of that, which is like you're all... perfect just as you are and you could use some improvement.

[31:08]

So both of those things are true at the same time. Does that help? Talk to the tanto and get someone to talk about it. Yeah, so I'm just talking about this one thing today, but it's a very important thing. Habit energy, yes. Again, I would suggest that a deep Zazen experience really shows you a happy energy. You know, it's like, oh, I'm thinking about that again. Oh, I'm thinking about it again. Still thinking about that thing. Well, what does it mean that I'm always thinking about this one thing? And it doesn't mean that you're a terrible person or a bad person. It's just you have this side of yourself that needs to be maybe held close, maybe loved a little bit, maybe, you know, just squished into shape. Slightly. said, we'd all be rich and skinny.

[32:49]

So in this path, you were talking about your brain being a driver's seat and how it feels not to have it there all the time. How do you choose the middle way or your way or their perfect way of learning about that versus doing it? Well, like I say, reading can be very helpful because it feels like fuel to me. You know, sometimes it's kind of pushing you to try to learn something you haven't figured out yet, and sometimes it feels like, oh, yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. Yeah, it's like a little confirmation going on. But I think it's a support rather than a driver. Zazen is the driver. Your brain isn't the driver.

[33:51]

Nothing else. Zazen should be the driver. And then you're not going anywhere. So, yeah, I would say you want to keep sitting because that's the very basic practice. And then to support that practice, there's lots of things you can do. You can talk to your spiritual friends. You can read great books. You can come and listen to people nattering on about stuff. I know it can happen. I would recommend keeping the Zazen going so it doesn't get overwhelmed by the cognitive stuff. But you're not going to get together with your friends and just sit Zazen unless you're going to maybe come here and do it. Lisa, how lovely to see you.

[35:03]

is the marketplace? It's bustling. Bustling and noisy. What am I doing? Well, I say three days a week I go over to Berkeley. I'm very happy to have a job helping Charlie digitizing some Zen archives and putting a plug for anyone who wants to give Zen Center a lot of money to have the whole Zen Center archive digitized. That'd be really great. There's probably 11,000 cassettes we've got from 40 or 50 years worth of stuff and includes a lot of stuff and we have the technology to make it audible and listenable and archivable and all that kind of stuff so yeah I get to do that a few days a week and then I'm teaching in different other locations the last Zazen I sat was actually at the county jail on Monday afternoon up on the 7th floor on Bryant Street that was lovely as always and I do mindful hiking my roaming zen thing I do from time to time So, you know, I'm keeping myself afloat more or less.

[36:08]

Thank you, Lisa. You've been treading the path a long time. I know you know how to do it. Chris. Yes. because you know maybe as brad said it seems kind of scary because the ego thinks it's going to get squished and the ego has some defense mechanisms to keep it in place and the brain you know has a very powerful set of parameters about what it thinks is good or not and you're going against that so i think you know the and i'm going to do this kind of gesture down here in the body this part of you knows it or maybe your heart knows it maybe your spine knows it But your brain isn't necessarily playing the same game. Your brain is playing its own game. So sometimes you can tune that out.

[37:11]

This is where Zazen comes in handy. You can tune the brain out and listen to this stuff a little bit more. And then you don't even have to enter it because it's all just coming right in. or some of you want to get to bed. So thank you for your attention. Thank you for being here. It's lovely to see you all. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma.

[38:08]

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