Okay. Good afternoon. I'm gonna hit the bell and sit for a few minutes and then I have Dogen Senji to talk about today. I'm gonna make noise now.

[05:36]

Good evening. So this morning I had a very nice treat. Two of our Sangha members, Sister Mary Ann and Carmina, showed up at Green Gulch. Real people. It was wonderful to see. their whole being, their whole bodies, and to be able to talk and share tea. We've started to have tea again at Green Gulch, which we haven't done for too many years. And so now we actually have space for more people to be in the Zendo. And it just started to feel like we're reviving, you know, that things are coming back to life. It's spring, it's time. So it was just lovely to have them. And you're all, of course, welcome if you're ever in town. to come in and join us here so I want to talk about Dogen some more lots more there is so much to say and last time I left him having awakened with Ru Jing at Ru Jing's temple and then in 1227 Dogen returned to Japan

[07:00]

having found what it was that he was looking for. An answer to his burning question of why do we need to practice if we already have the nature of the Buddha? We're already Buddha nature. What's this need to practice and strive? So having remained in China for two years, following his awakening, Dogen returned home to Kyoto with a deep wish to articulate both the principles and the path that Ru Jing had transmitted to him with his journey of stay in China. And so Dogen began to write. That was his main vehicle. He spoke as well, but I think he spent a lot of time in his room with a brush and ink because he wrote volumes and volumes of very beautiful teachings. So he began to write from this deep conviction that he had following his time in China about the original wholeness as the fundamental reality of all being.

[08:00]

That each person, each plant, each cup is fully illuminated. And particularly now that he has opened, you know, in his awakened vision he sees each thing as bearing the signs of ultimate reality. And this is just very much what the Buddha said at the time of his own awakening. You know, I and all beings All things on earth are awakened at the same time. Everything arises together and falls together. So there's no separate thing somewhere outside of ourselves. So this afternoon I thought it might be helpful to review the five ranks diagram so that we can see how Dongshan, its author, would have described Dogen's awakening from awakening. From drop it to drop it. to drop it, until his final integration of both the ultimate truth and the relative truth, which is what he came home with and which is why he said, I come home with nothing.

[09:07]

So I think it's fair to say that for many of us there's this longing for some union with vastness. We sense it. It is truly what we are. At the core is this vastness and spaciousness. And yet somehow that view of ourselves is muted, you know, mostly by how we think. So that this something that's greater than ourselves and that's greater than our limitations is what we all, I imagine, are looking for at some time throughout this life. So beneath this familiar and knowable world, we have probably all gotten a glimpse of what is unknowable. what we don't know, which is so much greater than what we know. And I think we've been trained to be a little embarrassed by the vastness of what we don't know. It's not something that we're encouraged to say in answer to questions on a quiz. I just don't know. I have no idea. So even though that may be very true and satisfying to realize that not knowing is nearest, it's not something we've been encouraged to declare in our lives.

[10:21]

So I think this longing for this vastness is what has drawn us to this teaching of the two truths, which I certainly talk about over and over again. And I think most of you have kind of gotten the hang of that. There's the ultimate truth, that Suzuki Roshi calls re. It's also called the first principle. And the ultimate truth is spaciousness, is inconceivability, it's all-inclusive reality, and it's synchronous synchronous sing and chronos is time chronos is time and synchronous means together in time arising together as time just as dogan's fascicle called time being so beautifully illustrates so the ultimate truth is also referred to as the dark or the source unity emptiness reality itself and One term that's used in the Song of the Jilmer Samadhi is the one.

[11:26]

The one. And then there's the relative truth, G, you know, second principle. And so one good example of the relative truth is what we've been looking at, are the names of all the Buddhas and ancestors, which are conceivable, they're nameable, they're diachronic, meaning they arise at different times, you know, different ages, different centuries, and so on, beginning 2500 years ago, as we say, and coming up to the present time, you know. So the relative truth is also known as the light, or form, differences, phenomena, or myriad things. So the relative truth is the many, and the ultimate truth is the one. in the simplest terms. So I just wanted to kind of review, show you, and speak about the five ranks, which I think is such a helpful way for us to keep in mind this dance between the two truths, which Dongshan, our founder, founder of Soto Zen, gave to his students and then to us, through the generations of teachers that followed him.

[12:38]

So the five ranks, as some of you may know who were here when we studied the five ranks some time ago, are the names that are given to five perspectives or points of view in endeavoring to articulate through language the experience of awakening. So the Buddha didn't say what happened when he woke up. He couldn't. It's ultimate truth. Inconceivable. It's spacious and so on. Words just can't reach it. So, you know, this teaching of the five ranks is some effort to try and evoke through language some experience that might lead us to have the same kind of knowing that the Buddha had at the moment he woke up. So one way of understanding Buddha's awakening is intellectually, that's what the five ranks are, to be studying and knowing and analyzing through words. what this experience might have been.

[13:40]

But a deeper understanding comes from inside of ourselves, you know, our own experience, when we also recognize that we and the stars are not separate. That's the thrill. That's the awesomeness, when you have those moments of realizing that you, as a separate being, have stepped aside ever so briefly, and the whole world just explodes. your face you know it just comes right in and it's very hard to hold that you know it's not some place where we can spend a lot of time sadly maybe some people do i don't know but it's not something that we're really trying to have as our ongoing daily experience but rather as a reference Something that I know, I know what that's like. You know, I think we all know what that's like. One of the people I was talking to after I gave the lecture this morning was saying that he knew it from his childhood. He knew something that he'd forgotten, but he still has that experience to call on.

[14:45]

And the same thing as I mentioned to him then is that's just what the Buddha did. He remembered the time under the rose apple tree. which may have fully been in blossom as mine is right now out in my yard, a rose apple tree in which as a young boy, he was 14 years old, he had this moment of utter contentment, of complete peace. And it was something that was so unusual and so memorable that as an older man in his nearly 30, when he sat under the Bodhi tree and tried a whole lot of maneuvers to experience awakening or to escape from what the reality that he feared, old age, sickness and death, suddenly he remembered that time under the tree. And he said, that's the way. That's the way to freedom. So this kind of experience or realization is of something we also call suchness or thusness. Those words are often used to indicate the presence of vastness, of spaciousness.

[15:51]

And suchness or thusness is at the juncture where the synchronic, together in time, and the diachronic, taking place at different times, meet. Like arrow points meeting in mid-air. So this is in time and beyond time at the same time. It's the kind of dance of language that we'll be finding in Dogen's writing over and over again. So this deeper feeling of connection or of belonging is what the Buddhist tradition teaches and what the Zen school is designed to help us realize through our practice of the bodhisattva vow, the bodhisattva precepts, and through our daily practice of sitting and working and studying and speaking together, all together. I often say to people that Zen center is not about a me, it's about a we, you know. And it's so interesting to listen to the students. I may have said this to you before. When they come here after a while, you know, at first they're talking about, well, I went to college and I just graduated and I was working on a farm and I did this and I did that.

[16:57]

I come from New Jersey, you know, and that's all very nice. And that's what when I ask them, you know, how are you and who are you? They start saying those things. And then after a while, after they've been here a while, they start talking about we. We have a garden, and we have tractors, and we cook together, and we bake bread. So that's the shift from a personal, isolated sense of ourselves in the world to something more communal or shared, something more spacious. A belonging, a kind of deep feeling of belonging somewhere. The Sangha. I think we like that about our gathering, the feeling of Sangha, that we all belong here. and are welcome. So this understanding of our deep connection is often called the Buddha's primary teaching. And it's based on his realization of the non-dual nature of the universe, you know, the all-inclusive nature of reality itself. And we're going to be seeing a lot of this awakened perspective in the poetry and the diagrams of the five ranks, which I'll show you in a minute.

[18:05]

So these positions in Dongshan's poetic choreography Dongshan, as you may remember, is the founder of Soto Zen. I don't know if I just said that, but he's the founder of Soto Zen. So it was his understanding and his teaching and his writings that basically led to the branching stream that became Zen center. Our tradition goes through Dongshan and then Ru Jing. who was Dogen's teacher. So we're basically a little upstream from Dogen right now, but I think it's very important to know what the water was that was flowing through that stream when it arrived in Japan with Dogen Zenchi. So, Dongshan's poetic choreography highlights this changing relationship between the relative and the ultimate truth. Now apart, now together, now as none other than each other. And by demonstrating, you know, through language, this intimate dance of the universe with each of us, we begin to get a sense of how to experience that ourselves, how to think that way, you know, not in some set point or as some set, as a noun.

[19:18]

These are not nouns, these are verbs. This is a process of change and growth and transformation and impermanence, all of these primary principles that the Buddha taught. in many years of his ministry. So just like the moon, when we see the light side, the dark side is there too, but it's not visible within the limitation of our senses and our point of view. You know, if we're standing on Earth and we're looking at the moon and its light, we can't see the dark side. If we get in one of those rocket ships, SpaceX, and shoot ourselves off into space and go to the other side of the moon, then we can see the light, but we can't see. You can't see the dark side. So this is just the limitations of our point of view, of our perspective. So when these two truths are experienced, then one side is there and the other side can't be seen.

[20:18]

So there's light and dark. Basically, we can see one side, but we can't see the other side. And that's pretty much the understanding for those of us who are doing this work, this practice, of looking at the one and then the other. And there's somewhere I read that only Buddhas can see both sides at the same time. Somehow they have this ability to be omnipresent. Buddha's not a person, it's more like a principle of vastness itself, the universe itself. So of course, the Buddha can see all sides at the same time. And in a minute I'm going to show you an image of how that might be so, taken from the Avatamsaka Sutra, the Flower Ornum Sutra that I was mentioning last week. So, you know, usually light and dark, one and many, cannot be separated and cannot be seen at the same time. So there's three primary doctrines that underlie Dongshan's teaching and therefore

[21:20]

Dogen Zenji's teaching of Soto Zen, which were already present in Chinese culture at the time that Dongshan was living. So, the principle... So again, three doctrines. I'm going to name them now. So the principle doctrine is the doctrine of emptiness. From the wisdom beyond wisdom scriptures, the Prajnaparamita scriptures, which I think you're all familiar with by now, such as the Heart Sutra, in which form an emptiness the many and the one, represent the two truths. So form is the many, and emptiness is the one. Form is the second principle, emptiness is the first principle. Okay, so Ri and Ji. I really have been enjoying having those two those two terms to use when I'm doing my own studies, because that's kind of all they're doing. Once you kind of catch on to the Ri and the G, the dance of these two principles, is pretty much what all of the Zen masters are doing.

[22:23]

They're playing with them. They have these two possibilities that they can show up. It's almost like a little, you know, that little shell game. You know, they can play with these things and offer them to us as a way to kind of disrupt are practical minds that really like things to be in a row and to be at different times, not the same time, and so on. So there is a method to their madness. And the hope is that they will help us to relax and open to this kind of greater vision of reality. So this doctrine, first doctrine, the first principle doctrine, puts great emphasis on the practice of negation. So for all of you who, I'm sure many of you have heard the Heart Sutra, or maybe chanted the Heart Sutra, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind. Meaning, no separate eyes, no separate ears, no separate, nothing standing separately from everything else.

[23:27]

That's really the intention of that. But the strength of it is in this negation, like no, no, no separation. Eyes are not separated from ears. Eyes are not separated from your nose, or your brain, or your toes, or the tree outside, or anything else. So in order to arrive at the realization of ultimate truth, this is the practice of prajnaparamita, the practice of no. So then this turns us toward the dark side. No, no, no is basically a method to turn us toward the dark side. as the inconceivable, ineffable spaciousness and so on becomes more apparent. And then the second major doctrine, so that's the first doctrine, Prajnaparamita, emptiness teachings. The second major doctrine is from this flower ornament or flower garland sutra. And this is called the mutual interpenetration of the ultimate truth and the relative truth, in which both sides are illuminated.

[24:32]

because they're together, they're woven together. We've talked about that a bit. Both sides, the guest and the host, as they're called in Dongshan's teaching, the host being Ri, the ultimate truth, and the guest being Ji, the relative truth, are never separate. They're basically woven together as a single piece. We call, you know, the universe. And we call an apple, and we call a bell, and we call all kinds of things. But no matter what we call it, there is a non-separation. that's actually what we're seeing and what we are. So both sides are illuminated. That's the second major doctrine. The third doctrine is from a teaching called the mirror-like mind. Mirror as in a mirror that you look in. So in coming to understand how Soto Zen took its shape under the influence of these doctrines, there are a few basic things about each of them that I'd like to share with you, starting with the teaching of emptiness. So the Emptiness Teaching specializes in revealing to us a perception of reality brought about by a process of deconstructing conceptual frameworks.

[25:42]

Sounds complicated, doesn't it? Deconstructing, taking apart conceptual concepts, thoughts, ideas, stories, frameworks that we tend to set up and believe. So deconstructing conceptual frameworks. This morning I talked about the Buddha said that I have torn down the house that I built and it will not build it again. The house of my imprisonment, house of my sense of a self, you know, that I'm trapped in. I have taken that apart. I've broken down the walls and the rafters and the beams and I will never build that house again. I will never build a constricted sense of myself and my life. You know, I'm just going to be out here in the open field. A white ox on an open field is another image of that sense of freedom. It's this big white ox, you know, on an open field. It's kind of vastness. So emptiness teachings specialize in the deconstruction of conceptual frameworks. In many Zen temples, such as Tassajara, there's an image of the Bodhisattva of wisdom,

[26:47]

Manjushri, who's wielding the sword of wisdom, you know, the sword of note. We have one of those at Tassahara. It's this youthful Manjushri figure, and he's sitting right there in front of you when you're leading service, and he's got this big sword raised. I kind of complained about that at one point. I was a little bit, like, concerned. I said to the people, I said, the reb who's statue it is, he put it there. I said, you know, I'm not so crazy about that. That's sword. You know, it seems like if you were to ask a child what what that's for, they say, Oh, that's for cutting off heads, you know, of course, it's obvious. Couldn't we have something different, like maybe a pair of scissors? But anyway, so far, I might my, my concerns have not been, have not won the day. So we have the youthful Manjushri wielding the sword, the wisdom sword. And just as this mantra at the end of the Heart Sutra says, you know, gatte gatte, gone, gone, gone, completely gone, completely gone beyond.

[27:56]

Bodhi, awakening, svaha, hallelujah. So it is a method, and it's a really powerful method. And highly recommended that you take up the practice of no, Maybe for an hour a day, you could just try it inside your own head because other people might not appreciate it. But you could just practice saying to yourself, no. But I just want to know. Maybe if I only know. I think I need to know. Just know. Calm down. Know. Know. It's okay. You can walk around. You can do everything you usually do. Just every once in a while, know. So as it says in the Diamond Sutra, which is another Prajnaparamita Sutra, like the Heart Sutra, same message, emptiness teaching, one should produce a thought that is nowhere supported by anything. One should produce a thought that is nowhere supported by anything, which is pretty much true of thoughts if you think about it.

[28:58]

They are nowhere supported by anything. What is supporting your thoughts? I don't know, but they're sure passing through real fast. And here comes another one, and here comes another one. What is supporting your thoughts? Very hard to see. Thoughts are coming out of the dark. So we can't really go in there and see how they're manufactured and so on. We're just used to it. That's the main thing. We're used to thinking. So we haven't spent a lot of time turning the light around and looking at the process of thinking itself. So that's what this is for. to help us to begin to analyze our thinking, you know, experientially. So I have often thought about this idea of unsupported thought or how we can offer our views or our opinions of things, our preferences, in a way that doesn't create some sort of conflict or argumentation. And I was imagining perhaps like just having your hand open, you know,

[30:03]

And having a butterfly land on your hand. You know, I'd like to show you this. Here's what I think. And here's my idea. Here's my opinion. And then you let the butterfly fly away. You don't hold it. Here's my opinion. And if you don't like it. So we don't need to hold on to the butterfly. We just need to let people see. I have an idea. I have a thought. This isn't so easy to do. I know I'm recommending something that's not so easy to do. So that kind of speech is not really so familiar to most of us, speech that does not lead to argumentation or to opposing conceptual systems. You know, we are dualistic thinkers. That's our talent. And yet the Buddha himself once said that, I find no evidence for or against anything. I find no evidence for or against anything. You know, just butterflies. So another very important function in how the perfection of wisdom uses language is in undermining the distinctions between opposing concepts.

[31:11]

So, you know, you've got right over here, you've got wrong over here, you have self over here and other over here, ignorance, enlightenment, and most basically, as it says repeatedly in the Heart Sutra, form an emptiness. And they are reconciled in the Heart Sutra. Form does not differ from emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness. That which is emptiness is form. So the Heart Sutra is reconciling these two appearing to be opposite. They appear to be opposites, but in fact, there's no way they can be opposites. They are totally integrated. So the language in the emptiness teachings, and of course in Zen as well, is basically used to have an impact on the hearer or on the reader, you know, turning us around, so to speak, in order to free us from any set position or view. You know, I've said this a few times, when I first came to Zen Center, senior students would often say things like, they say something they say, but on the other hand, why do they keep saying on the other hand?

[32:18]

And then they do this little gesture on the other hand. And I think I understand now what they were doing. I think they've been listening to these teachings. So the Prajnaparamita Sutras, in eliminating the line that separates categories such as Buddhas and sentient beings, basically set the stage for seeing ultimate reality as totally present in our everyday mundane activities. Not some special thing like over the rainbow or some special dream state or exotic bliss state. ecstasy or something like that, which I think we all be kind of interested in that, prolonged state of ecstasy. I mean, that's okay. But since the primary law of the universe is that nothing lasts, ecstasy too is doomed to fail. You know, all things will end. All things end. So this looking at our everyday mundane activities for what is most precious.

[33:21]

is very characteristic of Zen. So there's these familiar Zen sayings like chopping wood and carrying water is the full expression of Buddha's awakened life. Everyday mind is the way. You know, this very mind is Buddha. You know, our justice is it. These are all ways of bringing us back to this very place where we are and these very activities that we're doing, you know, to come home. To, you know, not to be seeking outside of ourselves, but to be seeking with our selves, or with our full self, you know, that is totally connected to everything. So as for Dongshan, the founder of Soto Zen in China, of which Ru Jing, Dogen's teacher, is his successor, he came into his own mature realization through these very questions about the relationship of himself as the subject and the objects in the world. So he was studying this dynamic, which we can all do, we do. We do it because we're always in relationship with the objects of the world. You take away the objects of the world and what do you have left?

[34:25]

Subject only. Not much. Subject only without an object is inconceivable. So each of us as subjects are never separate from the objects of our awareness. We are not in a dualistic relationship with objects of awareness. We are together. Always together. with whatever we are hearing or seeing or smelling, that is what we are. So this is an exercise, a kind of example of a way you can yourself work with your own experience. What would it be like if you eliminated all of your sensory experience? What would be left of you, including thinking? Yeah, no idea, no way to know. So here's a verse that Dongshan wrote on the occasion of his understanding of his relationship with objects. And he shared this with his teacher, whose name was Yunnan. It was a few chapters back in the Transmission of Light.

[35:29]

Dongshan said, Wondrous, wondrous. The teaching of inanimate, the objects of the world, is inconceivable. If you listen with your ears, you won't understand. When you hear the sound with your eyes, then you'll know. So he's giving us a little tweak, you know. If you listen with your ears, you won't understand. When you hear the sound with your eyes, then you'll know. Or he could have said your nose, you know, or the back of your head, or your kneecap. So the second major influence on Dongshan and what would become Soto Zen, is the Flower Ornament Sutra that I mentioned last week, and it's understood to have been the first words that were spoken by the Buddha at the time of his enlightenment. And this sutra that our senior staff, our senior seminar, the studies with Tension Anderson, Tension Reb Anderson, is beginning to read, which is a very interesting project.

[36:36]

It's a huge, I've said before to you, it's a huge document. I have it over here somewhere, but we are going to read it. And so each week we have an assignment to read about 40 pages of the Avatamsaka Sutra. And I have managed to get through about three pages. And it's, I don't want to say it's excruciating, because that's kind of biased. But it's excruciating. It's really just... layers and layers of imagery, you know, and there's no storyline. You're not going anywhere. It's just gold and silver and light and, you know, and bodhisattvas and they all have these names that are just full of luminosity and, you know, precious jewels and it just goes on and on and on. And I noticed after reading it, I've been reading it out loud in the morning, to my poor partner. I'm subjecting her. You're gonna listen to this. So I've been reading it and I've been noticing when I go down to meditate, something's happening.

[37:40]

You know, there's this, it's kind of like whatever you've recently been doing, have you noticed that? Your short-term memory is kind of the dominant impact. I've always, I've seen that for a long time in sitting that when I first sit down in the morning, sometimes the elements of my dreams will appear or sometimes something that happened yesterday that I feel like, you know, it's not quite resolved, will show up. It's almost like these arrows are just shooting in, these short-term memory experiences. So that's happening for me now with this Avatamsaka Sutra. And I'm kind of curious what it's going to do to me if I keep on reading this. It is a very powerful trance induction, and that's how it's been used for many, many centuries to induce in us an experience of this vastness and luminosity that the Buddha declared at the time of his awakening. So you are welcome to join us in this practice, if you like, to give yourself some experience of the Flower Ornament Sutra.

[38:45]

You know, maybe little doses at a time. So this sutra is filled with mystical and visionary imagery focusing on the primordial Buddha, whose name is Vairochana Buddha. Vairochana. Sort of coextensive with the universe. And he has said, Vairochana, he, she, they, is said to pervade every atom of the entire universe with their magical creations and their emanations as a way to help all beings. So I wanted to read you a little verse that actually is used in one of our big ceremonies we do in Dharma Transmission. This verse is recited. Now I, Vairocana Buddha, am sitting atop a lotus pedestal On a thousand flowers surrounding me are a thousand Shakyamuni Buddhas. Each flower supports a hundred million worlds. In each world a Shakyamuni Buddha appears.

[39:46]

All are seated beneath a Bodhi tree. All simultaneously attain Buddhahood. All these innumerable Buddhas have Vairochana as their original body. So as an important doctrine that the Flower Garnasutra, you know, this influence of this sutra had extremely big impact on our school and on these teachers of our school. So the idea that all levels of reality are interrelated and interpenetrate. So this kind of idea that inside everything is everything else. So I wanted to show you a picture of what that might look like. I've showed you this before, a while ago now, but this is my share button this is a digital 3d image of what I just said okay how about that each of these luminous spheres

[41:02]

is reflecting each of the other luminous spheres and there's infinite extension in all directions and within each of them is each of them so you know like a drop of water reflecting the moon or reflecting the night sky all the stars and all the galaxies are reflected in all the other galaxies so this is called indra's net which is a another famous image that comes from the avatamsaka sutra that this total inner penetration of everything in the universe is completely reflected and reflecting everything else. This is who we really are. This is how we actually exist. So I will stop sharing. It's kind of overwhelming. Anyway, so that's the second. So we have the first influence is the Prajnaparamita, like no. How about no Avatamsaka Sutra? be useful at times, you know, you get too carried away with your visions.

[42:04]

And then there's the Avatamsaka Sutra, the second influence, which is inside everything is everything else. So as a description of the way things are in our unenlightened world, this seems to us to be incredible, you know. But the realm or the sphere of absolute reality, of ultimate reality, as it is, is a world that is seen by the Buddha. a world in which there is no question of there being a world, you know, an objectively real world out there as distinct from a meditative vision. So this is a really important point that I found extremely interesting and I thought, aha, that's what's happening here. In other words, our own human imagination is given as much credibility as so-called scientific or experiential facts, something I think we can easily intuit by virtue of our dreams. In certain cultures, such as I understand the Aboriginal cultures of Australia, the dream world is more important and more real than the world of mundane reality.

[43:10]

So we're not used to that way of thinking that our dreams or our visions or our imaginarium, this sphere of our imagination, which is running almost all the time. you know, as we creating various ideas about the world and ourselves and what's going on, you know, we tend to think in kind of like, very limited vocabulary about that. But this kind of imagery is being presented in the Avatamsaka Sutra, allows the Imaginarium to begin to sort of expand, you know, way out there. It's kind of cosmic expansion. Vairochana is the cosmic Buddha. So they're really using language in order to invite us invite our imaginations to go to this vast sense of what reality really is. And I really like that idea that your imagination is just as important and just as valid as your neighbors next door. And going to Whole Foods for groceries.

[44:18]

We learned about Dongshan's teaching a while back, and we saw this influence from the Flower Garland Sutra in both his long poem, The Song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. Jewel Mirror Samadhi, that's it. I just showed you a picture of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. Samadhi means like a trance. You enter into a vision. You have a vision of something like this picture I just showed you. And he also shares this same understanding in his teaching of the five ranks, which I'm going to Let's talk about a little bit more now. So once Dongshan's search for understanding was complete, he then taught from that realization. So part emptiness from the Prajnaparamita teachings, part interdependence from the flower garland teaching, and part mirror-like wisdom, which is the third major influence on Soto Zen teachers. So now we have the emptiness teachings, we have the vastness of the interpenetration of the Avatamsaka Sutra teaching.

[45:19]

And the third one is this mirror-like wisdom. So the mirror-like mind indicates a mind that functions spontaneously and accurately in the midst of phenomena, just like a mirror does. It reflects exactly what is placed before it. So if a fence is placed before it, the mirror shows us a fence. A wall, a wall. roof tiles, pebbles, people, that's what's shown to the mirror, that's what the mirror shows back, perfectly reflecting without judgment, opinion, or alterations. So for us right now, it would be like this computer screen with my face rather large in the middle, and along with all the elements of where you are sitting in the world right now. That's the mirror. of your vision, your mind, your awareness, is looking into the mirror of reality and reflecting it perfectly. And it's changing all the time.

[46:20]

What's put in front of the mirror is constantly changing. It's always something kind of new and different and surprising that shows up for us. So Zen masters themselves are thought to be mirrors that reflected the true nature of reality, with all of their responses being potentially instructive. The Zen masters of this era in China were believed to manifest a pure mind, and thus ultimate reality itself through everyday language and everyday action. So at the end of his search, Dongshan had found a great deal of freedom and a multitude of methods for experiencing true reality, including a very deep appreciation for the everyday world, Ji, as a direct means to a realization of the ultimate truth, Ri. So in this somewhat radical turn, the Zen of our Soto Zen founder moved further away from the idea that the truth of our existence was to be found in some purified state of mind, but rather through multiple modes of experience.

[47:26]

These modes he later codified as the five ranks. So here they are in summary again. I'm going to show you the diagram of the five ranks, which I... find to be very helpful in following along with what Dongshan had found and what he was teaching. Here's the five ranks. Also you could say this is Buddha's mind. So there they are. So the first rank, which is this image of, these are all five circles, and each circle is illustrating the dynamic relationship between relative truth and ultimate truth, Ri and Ji, the two truths. So in rank number one, which is the entry, so your entry into realization begins with some experience of ultimate truth, of Ri, you know, that vastness of the night sky, or that moment under the rose apple tree, or that moment as a child when you

[48:37]

did something, jumped in the lake, or did something that really you remember. It's still there, as though it were short-term memory, you've still got it, you know, those special moments that woke you up. So in the first rank, the guest, Ji, the relative truth, is within the host, Ri, which is true reality. So as you can see from number one, the guest, The relative truth is the white part of the circle, the underneath half of the circle, and the absolute or ultimate truth is the dark side of the circle. So what's happening here is the relative truth, our mundane experience of the world, has been basically superseded by the vastness. That moment of experiencing the vastness, it's like one side's illuminated, the other's dark. So in this first step, G is dark. and Ri is light.

[49:39]

So you have this kind of awe. You just say a moment of awe. That's step number one. The guest within the host. The guest is the relative and the host is the ultimate. Number two, the host, true reality, Ri, is within the guest. So the circles are reversed. So now you have this experience of seeing each and every thing, all the G's that are running around, you see them as ultimate truth. It's like, oh, everything is interdependent. All things are together. Everything has the same nature, which is empty of inherent existence, meaning no separate existence. Everything, like we were looking, I hope you got a chance to look at that, Einstein's quantum riddle, where this entanglement you know, this feeling and this proof of entanglement, this, you know, what do you call the weird, weird action at a distance, spooky action at a distance?

[50:42]

So that spooky action at a distance is that everything, nothing's at a distance. Everything is now. Everything is here with us, you know. So every single, every single experiential moment is connected to everything else. And that's kind of exciting. So that's the second step, the second of the five ranks. the host within the guest. Very bright. Kind of feel like that's the one that happens outside in the garden. And then the third one, which has a dark center, all dark. is arriving within the host. And this is the time, and mostly in deep meditation states, when you're really focused on exploring ultimate realities, exploring the dark. You've closed out. Like when we're in the zendo, it's very quiet. The lights are down. We're not talking to each other. You know, I'm sitting next to one of my best friends. We don't chat. You know, we don't even acknowledge each other except to bow as we're seated. So we've really reduced all of that interplay of the G.

[51:45]

of the phenomena down to some bare minimum, very quiet little mumbling of thought and sound and so on as you settle more and more deeply into your meditation. So this is something we're very fond of in the Zen school. One reason we all hang out here as long as we have is because there's something quite wonderful about going into the dark by spending time in the dark. So that's step three. arriving within the host, exploration, just the dark, exploration of the ultimate reality. And then number four, arriving within the guest, which is the thorough exploration of the relative reality. So you come out of the zendo and you go down into the garden and oh my God, everything is just bursting with brand new blossoms and flowers and brand new students who've arrived and they all just look like, you know, glittering jewels. just like in the Avatamsaka Sutra.

[52:45]

So this experience of the dark really opens the gateway to the light, to re-entering the world of objects, of the G. So that's all light circle, number four, and then number five is called the host within the host, where harmony has been attained. You're no longer looking, you're no longer wondering, you basically, the seeking has subsided, As I said this morning, one translation of nirvana is utter contentment. You're not looking for anything anymore. You're not trying to get something for yourself. There's no self. There's nothing to get. It's already here. Whatever you might be wanting is right there in your face. And how you care for it is how you care for yourself. Taking care of the objects in your life. Okay, so those are the five ranks. So, Let's see, we're a little close to time. So while these so-called five ranks are not given in some order that indicates some are lower and some are higher, there are particular practices that can help us to enter into one or another of these ranks.

[53:59]

And so to enter into the first rank, the guest within the host, it is beneficial to make use of the kind of conceptual deconstruction of the Prajnaparamita Sutras. Form is emptiness. You know, form, the guest, G is emptiness. Re, the host. Form is emptiness. So that's how to enter into the dark. No, no, no, no. In the second rank, the host within the guest is an experience from this opposite perspective. Emptiness is form. So the first rank, form is emptiness. Second rank, emptiness is form in which the ultimate reality can be revealed to the mind's eye in the form of concrete phenomena you know so the method or the the beneficial actions that we can take to enter the second rank are things like poetry and similes and metaphors which are very useful for entering into realization of the second rank and a lot of zen i think i've said to you before that you know vipassana is very good for

[55:10]

psychologists and Tibetan Buddhism is very good for visual artists and Zen is very good for poets. You know Zen is basically makes use of the language of poetry as its primary entry gate into realization. So in the third rank the focus returns to emptiness or the host and this is considered to be the result of absorption in emptiness. basically an experience of prolonged meditation practice. So we just completed a Sashin and I think just watching how the folks moved through the first to seventh day and the change in their affect and their relaxation and their kind of brightness and lightness was pretty obvious. So, you know, and we also have some folks who just came back from three months of Tassajara, actually some of them six months. Tassahara. They did the practice period I ran, and they just did the one that Linda Ruth did.

[56:11]

And it's amazing, actually. I highly recommend it if you ever have time in your full lives to spend some time in practice period, particularly at Tassahara. It's quite impactful. And I think we all know that, we've done it, and we keep recommending it to those of you who haven't as yet. So in the fourth rank, turning again toward the side of the light, of phenomena, the guest, wherein phenomena are experienced directly as ultimate or empty. And the activities that help to see that are such things as go wash your bowls, or go make some rice to eat, or go make your bed, or go put your tools away. This is very Zen. This fourth rank is very much of a Zen practice. You know, just pay attention to your exchange with what you think of as objects and see how intimate everything that comes into your hands comes to life through you.

[57:13]

So this is the fourth rank. And then the fifth rank is an experience in which neither side is being emphasized. An experience of reality that is in harmony with itself. So these modes of describing reality, started with the Flower Garland Sutra and elaborated through the founder of Sodozen, gave teachers a much wider field of play. Instead of commentaries and long dissertations, they had all of these toys to play with, all of these tools, making bread and soup and working in the garden and so on and so forth. so instead of presenting the teachings especially emptiness in some abstract and highly conceptual terms zen teachers could use the language and the action of everyday life to demonstrate the ultimate nature of reality you know like this morning i talked about bring me the rhinoceros fan you know is it just like a what the rhinoceros fan you know how is that the ultimate truth and the attendant says but it's broken and

[58:19]

Then the teacher says, well, then bring me the rhinoceros. So this is how Zen teachers can play with objects and also with the mind of those who are a little confused. They can help them to invite them to, come on, you can do this. Come on, you can step in, into the light. So for example, in the enlightenment story of Dongshan, there is a citation by national teacher Hui Chong, who when asked, what is the mind of the ancient Buddhas? replies, fences, walls, roof tiles, and pebbles. So he's caught on. He's got it. He's basically coursing in the five ranks. So again, as I mentioned last week, I hope some of you have found this wonderful PBS program on quantum physics called Einstein's Quantum Riddle that introduced this entanglement theory, which sounds an awful lot like what the Buddha ancestors have been up to all these centuries. as well. And so to William Shakespeare, as my partner reminded me, who was a scholar of Shakespeare for many years, where Hamlet says, following a conversation with the ghost of his father, there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[59:38]

More things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. So maybe that's enough for now. I've got some more things to offer, but I'll bring those to you next week. And I'd like to just open up to you and whatever questions you might have or comments. Please be your welcome. Karina, do you see? Oh, there you are. Great. There you are again. Ah, yes. First of all, it was really wonderful to meet you this morning, Fu. And I would just like to say welcome to the Sangha. And as Fu and Karina and I were sharing tea, I brought all of you to that moment.

[60:45]

I was saying how I wish we could have all been together forever. At that moment, in a circle, as we are on the screen, and it was really lovely. So I want to thank you for that. It was a very special moment. I was wondering if you could bring forward something that you said this morning as part of the deconstructing of conceptual frameworks. I couldn't remember the phrases, but you talked about the Buddha talking about upside down. ideas and i found that really helpful in that kind of deconstructing these uh anticipations this these goals these eagernesses that we have um really helpful i was wondering if you could uh speak about those again as as really a really important first step yeah yeah thank you yeah well he called them the upside down views which is referred to in the heart sutra it says beyond all inverted views one dwells in nirvana So, you know, it's very important.

[61:47]

I mean, obviously, that's the key to to liberation is upside down views being right uprighted, you know, being corrected. So the upside down views are of a self that I am a self and I'm a singularity and I'm here to defend myself against other selves. And I'm a self made person and all that kind of thinking that we are encouraged to do from when we're very little. So that's number one of the upside down views. There's no such thing. but there's no such thing there's no entity like that you'll never find it you can keep looking but there isn't something number two is that there are these objects in the world that you can acquire that will last that have ever you know i mean people advertise that this is very durable this is going to last for a long time and we think about that we get those objects so that's the second one nothing's like that everything's impermanent The mountains are crumbling, the snow ice caps are melting. Those are the examples I gave. So there's no permanent things that the self can acquire.

[62:50]

So that's the second upside down view. The third upside down view is that if I do acquire, if I acquire those things, they will make me happy. That's an upside down view. And then the fourth one is that that's true. ultimate truth is that acquiring all the things I desire and long for will lead to joy and happiness, you know, everlasting, forever and ever and ever, and so on. So that's the fourth upside-down view. And what the Buddha said, the correct view is there's no self, things are impermanent, that there is suffering, and the suffering that comes from that mistaken sense of how the world works you know, from trying to get things for yourself is basically the actions of greed, hate and delusion. You know, I like that. I don't like that. And I'm confused about whether I like it or not. It's very self-centered. So that self-centered drive to acquire things is suffering. And that's the third correct view. And the fourth correct view is that the real joy is nirvana, is liberation from the drive to acquire things.

[63:59]

that when we give up that acquisitive sense of getting things for ourselves, and instead, begin to give to others, like generosity is the first of the liberative practices, the first of the six paramitas is generosity, giving, not getting, this kind of opposite world. So, yeah, that's what that I was bringing up today are those, you know, beyond all inverted views, one dwells in utter contentment. So that's kind of a nice idea. Yeah, it's extremely helpful. Right. Thank you so much. Thank you. You're so welcome. Hi, you. Hello. Hello. I'm so sorry about what happened. Are you going to share anything of that with us? Well, just. I have a student in my program who is not my child, who I was just helping look after this kid, grabbed a hold of the keys.

[65:10]

He has autism. And he grabbed a hold of the keys that were around or on a cord around my neck. And he was going to pull those keys off through my neck. So I slipped out from under them. And then he started swinging them. And he hit me really hard a few times before I gave up trying to get the keys back. And the school was really unprepared for such an emergency. Everybody stood around and watched instead of calling 911. So I've been... Are you okay? Yeah, I'm bruised, but I'm okay, and I'm having a little bit of difficulty not thinking about it a lot. Yeah, well, it'll take a while. Yeah. That kind of impact doesn't just go away. Right. It'll take a little while, and then it'll be a memory, you know, that happened like last year.

[66:15]

But right now it's fresh. Yeah. So sorry. Yeah, thank you. I've been through a good deal of trauma in my life. So this, that I'm just really absorbing and figuring out. So this really hit me. I was like, oh, this again. So, but it's okay. But thank you for asking. I just wanted to let you know. And a couple of things occurred to me while in your talk, during your talk. that the five ranks arriving within the host, which I think of, which I have noted, it's just the dark and it can be Sesshin. And then following that, just the light, I recall after Sesshin,

[67:20]

how delighted everybody is. And how we laugh. And I mean, once I had to change a tire after Sashim, and there was no way I could read those instructions. It's kind of like my re-mind was not functioning. Yeah, yeah. Your executive function was turned off a little bit. Yeah. Well, it's kind of a relief, isn't it? Yeah. at times. I mean, you know, it goes away, it wears off eventually. But the influence, as they say, the perfuming, they use the term perfume, you're perfumed by those experiences, they don't disappear, they kind of linger around you a little bit, like a bit of an aura. So that little by little, the more often you enter into that kind of space of quiet and dark, and come back out into the light, you know, the more often that becomes something familiar. and not so strange or so unusual.

[68:22]

But for a lot of people that first sesheen is just mind blowing. You know, we made the mistake of going to see a North by Northwest The night that Sashin ended, we said, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. And I will never forget that airplane coming at my face. It's like it's there. It is glued into my psyche. So you have to be careful what you do after Sashin. In fact, at some point, we used to also eat dessert and get really, you know, kind of stoned on sugar. And so eventually the teachers at Zen Center said, let's just go back to the Zendo the next morning. let's not have a party and we're all like no you know but actually it was just absolutely right you know just keep putting the dough back into the middle of the board keep bringing all those experiences back into the middle and nothing special so that takes a while but to get to get a taste for that rather than wow that party atmosphere was unexpected yeah yeah you know

[69:28]

My first session was just like, I had no clue it was going to end that way. Right. You know, I was wondering, how are we going to all come out of this? And it was just like. Yeah, we were kind of kids then, weren't we? Yeah. Yeah. A while ago. Now we know better, right? Yes. Another question that came to me is the impermanence of nirvana is i mean we are set to we are in kind of gaining i mean nirvana is something we're going after so to speak even though we're not going after it you know but it's out there it's right here yeah and this and and this is impermanent this is it yeah well impermanence is actually a g it's a it's a it's an appearance You know, things don't really come and go.

[70:29]

They just come. Come and go is one word. Tathagata, the name for the Buddha, means coming and going simultaneously. This synchronous arising is in the present moment, is in right now. There's no later. Nirvana can't be later. It has to be now. Buddha is now. Right. Okay. Yeah. No. Thank you. Yeah, you will. Thank you. You got it. OK, thank you. Ms. Keyes. Thank you. I just wanted to express my gratitude for this morning's Dharma talk. And how wonderfully open you were with your own experiences. And I really felt it just hit me in one of those ways that a Dharma talk does when it addresses the very issue you're sitting with.

[71:39]

And, you know, it air points meeting. And it was just so lovely to hear about fear in a moment when I'm addressing fear. So thank you so much for that. You're very welcome. You're very welcome. that's all hi everyone is that your puppy is that your puppy nori is her name oh what a good girl thank you melissa hi arie hello first i want to say thank you for welcoming me to this um to this time in this place i appreciate it and this is my first time attending this particular meeting of the sangha thank you um my question and we don't have to spend too much time on it but i've i'm i'm the parent of a of an adolescent um a teenager um teenagers can have their suffering and he has his and i um have been reading carefully and over a few times

[72:49]

one of the talks by Suzuki Roshi and Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, specifically the talk about control. And it talks about, I think the quote is that the best way to control your sheep or your cow is to give them a wide open meadow to be in. And at the end of that talk, there's also a reference to freedom and its relationship to rules and that freedom doesn't mean no rules. And I'm interested in a one or, you know, not taking too much time, but a one or two minute, if you could help me think about how to reconcile those two ideas, because they are challenging. And in a way, I think the metaphor of the butterfly is relevant that you use today, but I'd love to hear how you see those two ideas of rules. and the wide open meadow, you know, relating.

[73:50]

Yeah, thank you. Having raised a teenager myself, well, I didn't raise her, she just raised. She was doing her thing, you know, I tried to keep her safe. Yeah, the wide open meadow or pastures I've imaged it is, is actually, I've always imaged it with a fence. You know, that it's a pasture, but it's got a big, it's a big wide pasture, but it's, it's boundaried. And that the trick for the parent is that you watch. It's not that you just let them run, you actually are attending to them, you are keeping an eye on how they're doing, you're aware of them, you're present with them. So it's not an unsupervised situation. It's, it's really witnessed situation then that you can mention, you know, and I As a parent of a teenager, I did seek a lot of help with how to help her, you know, with her being estranged from us and from everything and her pain and all the things she was going through.

[74:54]

And I can remember this one quote that was very helpful. You always love the child, but you don't like the behavior. And so I would, that was a mantra for me. Like, I love this child and I don't like the behavior right now. So I could say that to her, you know, I just don't like the behavior. You know, I really, we need to talk about it. We need to make some kind of change here. So it was helpful for me because I think if I would forget when I'm irritated, that I love the child, I think as a parent, you can actually be very cruel, and very harming in a way you don't intend. So I think it's important to have a balance inside yourself to be aware of what are your feelings doing right now? Are you angry? Are you irritated? Are you wanting them to be under your control? And if that's happening, that's the trigger for us to calm down. My therapist used to talk about parents are a seawall. And the child's job is just keep hitting that wall.

[75:55]

And your job is just keep holding solid, you know, just be there and be able to receive what they're going through. So I think it's the same thing with the cow and the pasture, that you're there and you're aware of what they're going through and you're not too reactive. You're not trying to push them back or let them run. There's some balance between, what do they call it, like kind and firm. Combination of being kind and firm rather than just one or just the other, which can be really disturbing for children. So it's a job, you know that I mean, you have a big job to have a child and it's a privilege and you'll learn so much. And it's really hard and scary. And mine's 30 now. So that happens. And yeah, what's your boy's name? Henry Henry

[77:00]

Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Satish, I see your hand, but are you able to have a video or are you going to have to be only audited? I'm not able to switch on the video. My internet drops off if I do that. Sorry about that. I can hear you. I remember what you look like. Thank you. One of these days I do want to come into the center and even stay there as a guest student someday. But apart from that, it is a feeling. I have very little words for it, but maybe you can expand on it. It is like things exist. I feel like things exist only because of impermanence. In the sense that I came into existence. Because of some impermanence of my forefathers or something, the love that they share.

[78:10]

I don't know. There are some Greek stories about it where they live forever on the Mount Olympus or something and don't want children or something like that and all that. But I don't know what it is or the love I feel for my child or something like that. Like I said, I am not able to give all the words, but value of something also fits home for me because of impermanence. yeah yeah well beauty beauty depends on impermanence you know sunny day warm day yeah or flower blossoms i mean the japanese are really tuned into that right they go when the cherry blossoms are out they're out on mass you know because they know they're going to fall and soon it will be summer and it will be hot and there'll be whole other kinds of conditions and and then that will yield to fall and then there's another beautiful opportunity to to see the impermanence and on the transiency which really if you think about that it is what gives us a sense of beauty that things aren't going to last forever and that's kind of a

[79:18]

That's more of a nightmare, that you wouldn't be able to change or that you'd be stuck in some formation or that the things you have would never go away. It's really we do count on impermanence. And even though we fear it, because the ones we love, we don't want them to go away. And we don't want to go away most of the time. So we have a fear of transiency. On a personal level, now that I've crossed 50s, I'm starting to feel a sense of loss of certain things, but at the same time, trying to make each day count. Well, I did rest in sense of loss for a while, but then trying to make each day count a little bit more. I don't know. It's just a feeling. Both feelings exist the same day in the same hour. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's our nature.

[80:19]

We're two faced, you know, light, sun faced Buddha, moon faced Buddha, light and dark, right and wrong. I wanted I don't want it, you know, we're always kind of shifting around from one side to the other. And so finding balance in the midst of the constant shifting is really part of what's delightful about practicing, you know, to be upright and and find your balance as you walk, and don't go too fast. So you can notice what's going on around you. And you can say good morning to the people you pass and, you know, the dogs and the cats and all that. So there's something about really being where you are, you know, fully inhabiting the present. And that's really all we have. You know, that's the main, that's the main offering is just be here and, and, and greet what's coming. And don't try to hold it. you know, don't try to make the sun not set. You can't, you know, I mean, you can try, you can try all kinds of things.

[81:19]

But I think that's how we learn that we can't we're not in control. So aging is a real gift, Satish, I feel the gift of it more and more as I'm closer and closer to what's very likely to be the end of life, you know, I think I've heard, I've heard tell that it ends. And I can sense that and it's not the frightening You know, it's more of a friendly feeling. I may want to go totally carried away about that, but I do feel greater intimacy with the idea of the end of life. And so, yes, and as you just said, to really appreciate each day fully. I think that is our practice. Thank you, Phu. You're welcome. Okay, maybe one more tiny thing from Helene and then Alicia, and then we can... Did you say Alicia?

[82:20]

Yeah, Alicia. Okay. In belly practice, we call balance poise, which is another good way of looking at where we like to be and feel good about ourselves. Nice, nice. Keep poised. On one toe. Or two. Or two toes. Whatever. Yeah, I've seen some of those guys on TikTok. They're amazing. Well, ballet dancers are amazing. They are. And I wanted to just do a shout out to Ari, because my philosophy of my after school class, and I have fifth graders, so they are older, and I can do this with them. is this idea of give your cows a big pasture. And my vision is that I have electrical fence around.

[83:23]

You know, I make it really clear. But I maintain a real air of friendliness and acceptance all the time. Even if the kids go up against my my wired fence, I don't. You know, they're just being kids. They have incomplete brains. So they don't think the way adults think. And so, but I do feel that I'm giving the kids a certain experience of being a cow in a big pasture and learning about themselves, but keeping it positive. And friendly. And I do pay close attention to the children. I am always in conversation with them about this or that or what I see them doing or observing how they play with each other.

[84:27]

So it's not like me sitting under the banana tree. So I'm very engaged watching them. do their thing because they know they're going to make mistakes because they're kids. So I just keep an eye out for when that's going to happen. And I actually try to catch it in advance. So I don't end up with a big problem on my hands. So anyway, I've given that a lot of thought. And I think it's a great idea, but you really have to work with it. Thank you, Helene. Sure. Kind of you. Alicia. Hi, Fu. Hi, Sangha. Hi, Alicia. Good to see you all. You vanished. Oh, whoops.

[85:28]

Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay, great. Good. Fu. There you are. There you are. Okay, great. So I'm so nourished by your talk this evening. I'm on the East Coast, so it's evening here. And earlier this afternoon, they were both so nourishing. I really appreciate them. And I'm still digesting them, so there's a lot to take in. But I'll just focus this on the Einstein's quantum entanglement program that you recommended. That was wonderful, and I watched it again. when they were talking about quantum entanglement, I kept thinking of the heart sutra, you know, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. And in that program, they mentioned, they mentioned like the Tao of physics, like that group of physicists who are writing, you know, trying to merge physics and Eastern philosophy. And the physicist in it, he kind of rejected, he said, I felt like, or how I heard it was that he rejected physics.

[86:31]

they did he said they it was fun but they didn't really do much so i just was wondering about your thoughts on that yeah yeah well you're young to have been a hippie aren't you yeah but i you know without physics i was enthralled with it i read it a couple times i loved it when i was you know well You know, there's not been a totally comfortable relationship between mystics and scientists. You know, I think there's often been some little skepticism on both sides of that coin. But I, you know, the Buddhist meditators really did intuit the quantum mechanics. I mean, they really did. The Avatamsaka Sutra, if that's not what they're talking about as entanglement, then, you know, I don't know what they're talking about. So I think there's a lot of this happening in terms of their kind of appreciation of one another. And there's another wonderful book.

[87:32]

Oh, what is it? Oh, Golan? Yes, thank you. Yes, Helgoland. Helgoland. Got to read Helgoland. Did you read Helgoland, Licia? No, I haven't, but I haven't read it yet. But I'll do that later. Same thing. He's just like, thank you, Guy. He's just like reading all this stuff. And then he goes, and my students are saying to me, have you read Nagarjuna? And he's going like, no, what's Nagarjuna? And he said, after so many students said to me, have you read Nagarjuna? He reads Nagarjuna and he goes, holy cow. So he starts writing about Buddhist philosophy. It's so sweet and so dear. He's a very serious physicist. And so I think all of that is just more, it's just more dessert for us to feel appreciation for the Buddha, for the tradition, for science, for exploration, for hunting for the truth, you know, with a spirit of wanting to benefit. I mean, science can go off the rails, as we know, and forget about what is the benefit of this.

[88:38]

know and when they set off the trinity that first atomic bomb i i remember what if the uh say i think it's called the day after trinity maybe um trinity was the name of the first atomic bomb that they tested and these guys were actually concerned that meant that they might pop the atmosphere and they did it anyway wow so you know i feel like that's sinning That's what I think of as a sin. And so I don't necessarily trust scientists without compassion, that don't have compassion for living beings and for what they do and for being, you know, not so uncertain that what they're doing isn't going to cause tremendous harm. So, you know, we have to be alert and keep our eyes open and our... and our hearts open for where the arrows are not meeting. Yeah. Yeah. It strikes me as like humans, like our level of consciousness is still like adolescent and we're playing with things that we don't know what we're doing.

[89:50]

And yeah, there's lack of wisdom. Lack of wisdom and compassion. Both of those things should be primary. Wisdom at the service of compassion, not the other way around. You know, always put compassion first. and non-harming, you know, those principles, which I don't know. I don't know. I know that doctors take those vows, but I don't know about pure science we're up to, but we can try to find out. Yeah. Thank you so much. And maybe you'll circle back to this, but I remember when we were studying the five rings, you were mentioning that Dogen doesn't like them and he kind of rejected them. So maybe you'll be circling back to why. Well, mostly he didn't like systems. He was very unsystematic in his dharma, as we'll see as we read Dogen, you know, it's like, he's just doing this, and then he's doing that. And then he's contradicting what he just said, and you're gonna wait, who is this guy, you know, but he's got he's free range.

[90:52]

And slippery. Yeah, slippery and liberative and irritating and all of it. You know, he's, he's a great is a great founder to have. Dogen. I've always tiptoed very tenderly into Dogen, which I'm going to take you all with me. That'll help. It won't feel quite so frightening. Great. Great. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you. Okay. Very good to be with you all. If you would like to come on to the gallery view, I'm going there. And welcome to unmute and say good night, if you like, or good morning, wherever you are on the planet. Good morning. [...] Millicent, are you good morning too? You're good morning, aren't you? You're another good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning people and the noon people and the evening people. Evening people here. This is bedtime. Good night. Good night.

[91:55]

We're going to have supper. Thank you so much, Fu. Thank you, Sangha. Thank you, Sangha. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. See you next week. Good night, all. Thank you. Good night. Good night. Thank you. So you can't see him very well, but this is Steve. Oh, hi, Steve. If you put your head under the light there. Yeah, there we go. There you are. Oh, hi. How nice to meet you. It's so nice to meet you as well. Yeah. Will you be coming out soon to California? Yes, I'll be coming out after Lisa. So it would be wonderful if we had the chance to be able to meet. I hope so. We appreciate that. Let's plan that. That would be lovely.

[92:56]

And I so appreciated your talk this morning. It was really wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Lisa, for introducing me. Appreciate that. No, he's been this mystery in the background. That's right. That's right. No longer. Okay. Take care. Yes, you too.

[93:16]

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