This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Yesterday there was a question which comes up so many times about is it necessary to have a teacher? And... I forgot exactly the context of the question, but you don't need a teacher to be miserable. You don't need a teacher to be trapped in egocentric consciousness. It comes naturally to human beings. I enjoy a number of great

[01:01]

Western philosophers. And they have great insights, but still most of their findings are egocentric. And even though they have great vision, they seem to be trapped in an egocentric view. So I would propose that the way we become free of egocentric view is through face-to-face transmission, through conversation with the other. And being able to see the other and respect the other

[02:03]

as a teacher. A teacher of the way to become free of our self-centered entrapment. So if you wish to be free of that entrapment and the misery that comes with it, then you need a teacher. If you want to stay there, stay away from teachers. Especially ones that are really not you. Now, I also want to just mention that once one becomes free of egocentric enslavement and entrapment, one becomes free of misery, which is nice, pretty nice. However, there's something even nicer than that. or even cooler than that.

[03:05]

And that is, once you're free, you're free to do something called helping others be free. And being free, again, is nice, but helping others be free, that's what Buddhas really are into. Helping others become free. That is inconceivably more... That's Buddha fun. LAUGHTER It's the activity of a liberated person helping others. All of them. So it's not just freedom from suffering, which again is great. It's not just liberation, which is great. It's something inconceivably greater. It's working for the liberation of others. It's great compassion, which is possible once you're free. Before you're free, you can be. but the compassion is a little bit trapped in the egocentric situation.

[04:14]

Once we're free of that, the compassion is unleashed to its fullness. Also, I wanted just to, for the record, say that yesterday I said something about hearing about Dengshan attaching to his idea of practice and locking himself away from his mother and yet through his mistakes he discovered real home living but he made some mistakes along the path of searching for real home living and that mistake was pointed out by Kezon. And I said that Keisan was also concerned about his mother and that Tetsugikai encouraged him to get over that.

[05:16]

But it was actually Keisan encouraged Gasan Joseki to let go of his concerns for duties to his mother in order to benefit all beings. I don't know what happened to his mother, but Kezon did encourage him not to let concern for care for family hinder care for all beings, including your mother. Once again, Master Ma is not feeling well.

[06:22]

He's practicing zazen when he's not feeling well. He's on the verge of death practicing zazen. And the director asks him, how is it? And he says, sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. Some people would see this as face-to-face transmission between Master Ma and the director. Fine, with me, to see it that way. But also, Master Ma is face-to-face transmission of sun-faced Buddha and moon-faced Buddha. Yesterday I brought up the poem celebrating this sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha.

[07:33]

And a new perspective is on the poem, which is sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. What kind of people were the ancient emperors? I have struggled bitterly for 20 years. How many times have I gone on down into the cave of the green dragon for you? Clear-eyed, pastoral monks, do not take this lightly. And I mentioned that I had some question about the second line, what kind of people are... the ancient emperors. And so now I wanted to point out that that line, which the Zen poet put in there, is the last line of a poem written a while before, which kind of criticizes the aristocracy who, you know, are in their beautiful brocades and have falcons on their wrist

[08:54]

and have no concern for the misery of the people. And then the last line is, what kind of people are these ancient emperors? So when the Zen poet took that line from that poem and put it in his poem, he was famous enough, I guess, that the emperor found out about this poem. And this poem, which Sui Du wrote, in the Blue Cliff Record was banned. It was not allowed to be published because the emperor or the emperor's administers thought that Swayju was criticizing the throne. So today I'm feeling like basically another way to say the poem is sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. I'm not afraid of the emperor. And neither is Master Ma.

[10:00]

Twenty years of bitter struggle. How many times have I gone down into the green dragon cave for you? In the Book of Serenity, Tian Tong Hongyue, who lived about a hundred years before Dogen, and perhaps is the most appreciated or venerated of all the Zen teachers from Dogen's perspective. He really appreciated and had almost identical views with Tiantong Hongzhi, who compiled the Book of Serenity. And the poem which celebrates this case is one of the poems where we can see an important, a subtle but important difference in emphasis between Tiantong Hongzhi and A He Dogen.

[11:19]

Again, I think both Tian Tong Hongjir and Dogen would say that this Zazen practice is the treasury of true Dharma eyes, the inconceivably subtle mind of nirvana. They both would see the practice that way. Now, Matsu seems to also. What is it? How is it? How is it? How is it? Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. Stars fall. Thunder rolls. The mirror faces objects without subjectivity. The pearl or a pearl in the bowl rolls on itself. or roles of itself.

[12:28]

Both. Of course, on itself and also of itself. Don't you see? Gold. under the hammer refined a hundred times. Silk under the scissors and ruler of one cloth. The line which I'm talking about is The pearl in the bowl rolls on itself or of itself.

[13:32]

Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha is a pearl. And sun-faced Buddha and moon-faced Buddha are rolling on each other. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha rolls of itself. Face-to-face transmission rolls of itself. Zazen rolls of itself in the bowl. I think maybe Genshaw said the entire universe in ten directions is one bright pearl. And this pearl is rolling on itself and of itself. The kind of universe it is is that the universe is rolling on itself. It's meeting itself face to face, giving rise to itself.

[14:34]

again and again, rolling on itself, as itself. Nothing to get a hold of, and we got a whole universe not to get a hold of. So, Tin Tong Hongzhi wrote that line, that line about the poem rolling on itself, and later, in another place, he referred back to this pearl rolling on itself. And he says, it rolls on itself without prodding. Which is similar, which reminds me of the line from Dogen's poem. Again, Dogen and... Hongjir are both writing poems about Zazen called Acupuncture Needle, right?

[15:37]

So in Dogen's poem about it, modeled on Hongjir's, he says that this intimacy, this presence which is intimacy of itself and is undefiled, it is, this intimacy is liberation itself. It It is itself liberation without relying on anything. This pearl is rolling on itself. The universe is rolling on itself. There's nothing... The universe doesn't rely on anything to roll on itself. It's intimate with... The universe is intimacy itself with itself. In the intimacy of the universe, it's meeting itself. And... giving rise to itself. It is rolling on itself.

[16:38]

It doesn't rely on anything for this to happen. This is reality. So, Hong Xiu says, the pearl in the bowl rolls of itself or on itself with no prodding. Nothing's prodding. It's like, here's the pearl and I'm pushing a little bit with my finger, that's prodding. Or you're like a horse, you hit its rear end, or you pull a little bit, prodding. A little bit of pushing, yeah. But maybe just with a pearl, just a little bit of a push. So it rolls of itself with nothing prodding it. But then Dogen, you know, respectfully, who really appreciates Hungary says, I disagree.

[17:39]

The pearl in the bowl rolls on itself with product. Zazen is you could say Genjo Koan but also in the Fukan Zazengi Dogen says Zazen is Koan Genjo so Genjo Koan means manifesting the Koan or manifesting and presencing or presencing and becoming the Koan Genjo Genjo presencing and becoming the koan, reality. But in genjo koan, yeah.

[18:42]

He says zazen is to genjo the koan, to presence it and become it. So Hongzhi is saying, Hongzhi is kind of emphasizing, This pearl in the bowl rolling on itself, the sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, pearl, it rolls on itself with no product. And it's true, it does. That's koan. The pearl rolling on itself is the koan. And it does it without any genjo, he's saying. In other words, leave reality alone. It's fine. But Dogen's saying, yeah, but it can be worked and it can be deepened by prodding it.

[19:51]

It can turn on its own, but you can join the turning. So in that sense, with this line about this pearl, this pearl, which is sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. This sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced pearl is turning of its own, but we can also prod it. We can also say, nice koan. Thank you, koan. We can bow to the koan. We can sit the koan. And in this way, as we say, we renew the magnificence in the way of this rolling. And that's similar to the wind reaches everywhere, why do you fan yourself? In reality, the wind reaches everywhere.

[20:52]

Everything calls for the wind, and the wind comes and reaches everywhere. And yet, if we don't prod the wind, if we don't put our little fan up there and prod that wind, we don't fully understand that the wind reaches everywhere. And if we don't touch the koan, which is turning, we don't fully realize the turning, which is already the case, and always will be the case. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, will always be so. But are we taking care of it? Are we touching it and rolling with it? I think it was in relationship to his book on Ganjo Koan he had a I don't know what to call it

[22:03]

kind of a celebration of the book, and he invited me to join him in a conversation about genjo koan. And beforehand, as I was thinking about it, I thought, I kind of, I'm kind of a genjo guy. No, I'm kind of a koan guy. I kind of like the koan of genjo koan. And I said to him, he said, well, I kind of like the genjo. And I thought, well, it's a better one. So right now, I'm not abiding in genja or kawan. Anyway, at the end of that session, we released all the people, but they got back in their cars. The thought arose in my mind.

[23:34]

you didn't say very much maybe you should say more but then I looked at the clock I think I said enough the whole universe in ten directions is one bright pearl rolling on itself. And we have been blessed with the opportunity to join this rolling pearl in this session, in this practice period. And from now on, congratulations to us. Congratulations to you.

[24:38]

Congratulations to you. Congratulations, dears and monks. Congratulations to you. This is really good water. Even though it's chlorinated, right? Is it chlorinated or not? No. South Sour Water used to be really delicious when it had all that stuff in it. All those animals. But the health department didn't like it. What is it that prods the pearl?

[26:27]

That question prods the pearl. The pearl just took a little turn on that one. And you know what the pearl is, right? Yeah, the whole universe turned a little bit with that question. Did you enjoy that pearl of the universe being turned by that question? I don't know, my heart beating so fast. Maybe. That's another possibility. This beating heart turns the pearl, prods the pearl. Each beat prods the pearl. I want every beating of my heart to prod the turning of the universe.

[27:35]

Of course it does, but I want that. It does whether I want it to or not. It does whether you want it or not, right. The wind blows whether you want it to or not. So... So we fall back into moral and ethical, start to look at moral and ethical things, behaviors, ways of thinking, ways of being to affect the product of the pro? Yeah. So if we do not engage... Wholeheartedly, in ethical training, we will be involved in things other than paying attention to prodding the one bright pearl.

[28:48]

We'll be spending our time thinking about people being nice to us or not. We'll be spending our time thinking about whether we're being treated well. We'll be concerned with this and that because we're not ethically disciplined. We're going to be caught up in all that stuff. And then we're going to be distracted from enjoying what's going on anyway all the time. So we practice ethics so we can actually look at reality and enjoy it. But if we're inattentive and uncareful and disrespectful, we get caught in all kinds of turbulence And we can't remember subtle things like sun face Buddha, moon face Buddha, pearl. But with ethical discipline, we can actually remember the practice of ethical discipline.

[29:52]

If we don't practice ethical discipline, we have trouble practicing ethical discipline. But if we do, we do. And then we... I say, oh, now not only can I do this, but I can enjoy reality. And nobody's coming up to me and saying, oh, you enjoy reality? Oh, no, you're not. You, such and such. Who do you think you are? Spending your time like that and not paying attention to this stuff. Oh, sorry. If you're sorry, then you say, okay, now you can go back and look at that pearl. But if you're not... working on being careful, then the result of not being careful is you can't care for the fullness of the pearl. All these other practices are supporting us to meditate on, for example, sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha.

[30:56]

If you don't practice Zazhin, I mean, if you don't practice ethics, you're not going to be able to go sit down in a Zendo and be quiet. Because you have to go to the DMV. Because you, you know, you weren't careful. And they took away your driver's license. So you have to go back to the DMV and wait in line. And when you're waiting in line, it's hard to actually remember to practice Azen. Not impossible, but... Now, if you go to DMV as an act of meditating on the pearl, that's different. So, we get into situations where it's very difficult to be mindful if we're not mindful. But if we're mindful, then the reward is we can be mindful of these wonderful teachings.

[32:01]

But we have to be ethical in order to get the gift of being able to be quiet and still and look at our mind and see that it's a pearl rolling on itself. The pearl is mind? The pearl is mind? The pearl is the mind rolling on itself. And when the mind rolls on itself, it rolls from mind to not mind to mind. to self, to not self. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha is the mind rolling on itself. Thank you. You're welcome. One of my mentors wrote an essay that's titled Historical you know, critical historical consciousness as an offering to the trans-historical Buddha.

[33:05]

And it's kind of what I aspire to do as a scholar. And you mentioned... You mentioned... I think you even asked that... the community take care of the stories and tell stories and as a way of taking care of, you know, turning the dharma wave. And yeah, and so I aspire to engage with the stories and with, you know, creativity and sincerity. And I also feel like... I see examples of teachers, for example, Taz Kanahashi or maybe Dan Layton and some of your other students, like Charlie Picornian people who are able, seemingly, to really have a...

[34:29]

the strong laws and practice I study. But I wonder if this is, if sometimes I feel like I'm grinding my wheels, like if this tradition is really a good fit because I struggle following the schedule and I feel like the ratio of seated meditation to discussion at this point in my life is just not where I want to devote my life force and I was curious if you had any like suggestions whether to like come to peace with that, or maybe other ways of engaging?

[35:43]

Could you hear his question well? Well, would you like me to comment on what you said? I'd like to start with the title of your friend's essay, which, as I remember it, and you can correct me later, is something like an historical critical historical analysis of something offered to the trans-historical Buddhas? Yeah. So, when you said that, I heard moon-faced Buddha, sun-faced Buddha. So, critical historical analysis is like moon-faced Buddha. That's done like in a minute or hour or a day or a month. And this moon-faced Buddha work can be done for the sake, can be offered to the sun-faced Buddha, which is trans-historical. So our practice is to take care of the historical thoroughly, and by taking care of the historical, which is limited, even long history is still limited, and analysis is limited.

[37:05]

and working with limits, that way of working with the moon-faced Buddha in its fullness is the sun-faced Buddha. So the study is one way to enter the pivotal activity of historical and trans-historical Now the question is, can anybody do the analysis wholeheartedly without training in another kind of limited training of Zen schedules and Zen forms? Can the scholars really wholeheartedly be scholars without training their body also in relationship to their body? Maybe.

[38:07]

But I see some really intense, great scholars, and they still seem to be egocentric. Even if they're studying Buddhism. Like one time I was, a long time ago, before I married my wife, she was helping me translate a French translation of the Abhidharma Kosha. She was translating it from French into English with me. And she wanted to talk about something other than the Abhidharma Kosha while we were translating. And I didn't want to. But I saw how ridiculous that was that we're studying Buddhism and somebody wants to talk about something other than Buddhism And I don't want to talk about it. Buddhism is not about, you know, holding on to Buddhism.

[39:11]

But I was like holding on to Buddhism while we were studying Buddhism. Well, that's not, that's not, that's holding on to the historical analysis that's attaching to it. That's not wholehearted historical analysis. Historical analysis isn't holding on to itself. It's rolling on itself. And it rolls on historical analysis, trans-historical analysis. Trans-historical life can give historical life a life. So, I think Soto Zen, Suzuki Roshi, really encouraged us to study. And, period. but I would say he wants us to study wholeheartedly. So I lived next door to him in Page Street, and I used to keep my door open so he could see me or find me if he needed me.

[40:18]

He didn't have to knock on my door. My door was open when I was in there. And I also sat so he could see me if he walked by. When I was studying, I would sit in Zazen posture while I studied. to show him how I studied. And he walked by one time and he said, that's the way a Zen priest studies. You're not all bent over on your book. You're trying to be there. And you may not read a word, but you're there with the text. And although you're not reading, the text might suddenly say, Hello. I have a message for you that's not in this text. When you have that kind of practice, although you may not be able to get through very many texts, the texts speak to you in ways that they don't speak to you if you're trying to get something from them.

[41:25]

And so, if you spend a lot of time doing something like a Tassavara practice period, You notice maybe, for a while, you maybe notice you're trying to get something from the practice period. And you realize that that is really not the way to do it. And then you start doing the practice period not trying to get anything. Then you start doing the practice period to give yourself to it. Then when you go to Zazen, Zazen gives you something. Because you give Zazen something, it gives you something. When you go to study Buddhist scriptures to give yourself to them, then they give you something. And they give you something that's not on the page. They give you where they come from. So I think not all Zen students have to be scholars, but a real Zen scholar has to be able to be generous with the scholarship and not try to get anything from it. And then the scholarship gives them stuff.

[42:28]

Like I often said, when I first started studying Abhidharma, It was like reading the telephone book. But not the yellow pages. The white pages. And not like, you know, the Polish section. But like the places where there's lots and lots of Andersons. Just Anderson, Anderson, Anderson, Anderson. And like, well, what am I getting out of this? It's like, that's what the Abhidharma felt like. What am I getting out of this? But as I sat with it and gave up trying to get something, one day, blood squirted out of the pages. It came alive because I just kept coming back to it and finally not trying to get anything. It said, okay, now you can hear the secret.

[43:33]

So we do study. It's part of the deal. But we want to study from not getting anything, not trying to get anything, giving up trying to control. That's the way Suzuki Rashi wanted me to study. So I need this practice. of just being here and not trying to get anything in order to really have a living relationship with scholarship. I need that, and I think that's, and maybe these people you mentioned, maybe their Zadzant practice makes it so they really do receive the gifts which are reciprocating their devotion to the text.

[44:37]

Maybe they have this kind of relationship, so it works pretty well. That is a possibility. But I'll tell you a story about one of my friends who was a professor in Buddhist studies, and he was in his religious studies department office. And he stepped out of his office and looked down the hall, and another one of his colleagues in religious studies stepped out into the hall and looked at him and ducked back in the office. Because he didn't want it to run into the guy because it would take time away from his studies. And, yeah, so sometimes religious scholars don't want to talk to people because it's not about what they're studying, like me. I don't want to talk about that. It's not about the Abhidharma. This is like the great, you could say irony, of some religious scholars is they don't want to have anything to do with anybody.

[45:44]

Because it won't contribute to their published works. And the same person said to me one time, a really sincere graduate student came to talk to him about Dogen. And this guy was taking up a lot of time talking about Dogen. He was a Dogen scholar, somebody really interested in it, and he doesn't want to spend time talking about it with him because it's wasting his time. But he could see how ridiculous that was. But still, there it is. You get on this track of, I've got to study Dogen, but I don't have time to talk to him about it. So we have to be careful of that. Otherwise, the scholarship is... not in accord with what we're studying, even though it may be really smart. So I think, if possible, it's good to completely settle down and then become a scholar.

[46:55]

And I... Is it possible to really settle down completely? Is it possible to settle down completely? Yeah, because I thought you'd say it's kind of a simultaneous process of reaching out and settling down. Yeah, and you can settle down into that. I think this tradition is saying it is possible to actually be here. I mean, since we are, it's possible. Since we are, it's possible. And we can notice that even though we can't be sure we're going to be able to, we can notice we're doing certain things to distract ourselves from being here. It's possible we would stop doing those things and just be here. And there are moments sometimes when people feel like, you know, I think I'm really here, and somebody else who is also into really being here is looking at me and saying, I agree, you're here. We're actually here together. Your eyes are not looking several other directions while you're talking to me. You seem to be here.

[47:57]

And then we can test each other to see if we're... And we kind of say, maybe we are here, really, completely. And then we can feel like, in the next moment, I lost it. So it seems like, well, maybe, yeah. We can do it. We can be here, and then we can notice we're not. And then we can notice that we give that up, the way that the not, drop it, and then we're here again. So we've got reality working on our side. It's a question of joining it. So it is possible to be completely you. But it's a lot harder for you to be you than for you to be me. So it's hard for me to be me, but I think it's possible and necessary in order to actually realize the Dharma. Really. And once you realize it, you don't have to be a scholar because you're now what the scholars are studying. But you can still be a scholar.

[49:00]

Even after you are Buddhism, you can still study Buddhism and see if you can study it without losing Buddhism in the process. Or rather, see if you can study it without holding on to Buddhism while you study Buddhism. And that's a challenge. But Buddhism is telling you, please be yourself completely. And rather than do that, I'd rather study all the different ways people tell me to do that. How about doing it and then study the way people tell you to do it? Do it and then study in a way that encourages you to practice, rather than study and someday practice. Thank you for your question. Thank you for your response. Who's there?

[50:04]

Not sure. Welcome, not sure. Yes? I'm looking for somebody. You're looking for somebody?

[51:15]

Do you see somebody? Not sure. Is who you're looking for the same as who you're not sure you're seeing? his eyebrows raised he's smiling I'm not I'm not sure what he's asking me he told me he's looking for someone

[52:29]

and he doesn't know who he's looking for. Are you giving me gifts? Are you receiving gifts? I think I am. And while I'm receiving gifts, I thought I'd ask you if you know that you're giving them, if you feel like you're giving them. Do you feel like you gave me several gifts in the last few minutes?

[53:34]

I do too. And are you looking for something other than giving me gifts? Or is that what you're looking for? The gift giving. Who is it? Thank God I've been waiting for you for so long. Roshi? I want your help. Fragile. Please take care of it.

[54:48]

I, for you, I will. Thank you very much for telling women's stories. I really have been appreciating those stories. And also the poems. It's somehow like a really beautiful quality, I think, that comes forth with not just stories, but the poetry that goes along with them. Tenzo left, but I wanted to thank her because she loaned me her copy of The Hidden Lamp, and so I've been reading these stories of our Zen women ancestors and commentaries from learn practitioners about the stories. And it's kind of like what you were saying, like somehow my experience before that of reading Zen texts was like, kind of like a telephone book for me.

[55:58]

And this book, The Hidden Lamp, just, I was so engaged. It's like... Yeah, so it's just been a very different experience for me. And I was wondering if I could share a little bit about some stories that I found inspiring. Please do. Then we'll have some stories about women. So, from the... To satisfy your request. I may just say, feed it. So, Shiono... was, I believe, the first woman who received transmission in Japan. At least that's what I remember from the book. So she was a servant in a monastery. So there was a monastery of nuns in Japan. This is the 13th century. And then she went to one of the nuns and asked about zazen.

[57:07]

Meditation and she learned so the time none gave her basic instructions and she said Chiana practiced very diligently I said for months and then One night she was working she went out to gather water in a bucket and It was an old bucket that she had patched many times And she was carrying it, and the full moon was shining, reflecting the bucket. And then the bottom of the bucket dropped out, and she woke up. And she wrote a poem, and it said something like, with this and that, I tried to keep the bucket together, and then the bottom fell out. Where water does not collect, the moon does not dwell. So yeah, and then she became transmitted and I think the abbess of a monastery.

[58:16]

And I'm not sure how long after another woman named Neo Zen was practicing with this poem of enlightenment. And then she woke up and then she wrote a poem and I don't remember that one, but it talks about, it kind of turns it and instead of like, the bottom dropped out of the bucket, and there's no more reflection in the moon. She writes about the moon being reflected in every puddle in the pale moon, the pale moon of dawn. So I just found the idea of, you know, one poem being, in that way, face-to-face transmission to another one. Turning on each other. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think the bottom dropping out, like trying to keep the bucket together and the bottom dropping out is such a great metaphor for this.

[59:20]

I can feel that in myself, like, like that strain of like trying to keep it together. And then some like little moments where I just noticed that I'm not doing that as much and it's actually liberating. It's not scary, but then also the feeling of like, yeah, that, Yeah, just drop away. Oh, body and mind can just suddenly drop away. And they're doing that all the time. But if you're taking care of the bucket, it's more impressive when the bottom falls out. But if you're not taking care of the bucket and the bottom drops out, even though it does, it doesn't really mean that much to you. But if you really like working hard, caring for the bucket, then when you will see that the bottom has, you'll see that it's dropped out, and it'll be very meaningful to those who take care of buckets.

[60:22]

Same with, you know, that poem, this leaky tumble-down grass hut leaves openings for the moon. Now I gaze at it all the while. it was reflected on the teardrops on my sleeve. So dropping our body and mind, face-to-face transmission, pearl turning on itself, it's going on all the time, but if we don't take care of the pearls and the body-mind, we miss what's already going on, which we dearly would like to not miss, our life. So keep taking care of the bucket. And you'll notice that it's dropped out. The bottom should fill out. Can I ask something completely different about... Let's see if you can ask something different. So you've been talking about gift giving and...

[61:37]

It seems like there's this way in which gift giving is just that pivoting that this is the reality that's showing up. It's not necessarily that it has to be something good. It can be me being really mean to you. But that's the gift that's coming up right now. And I think... in response to Shuso's question about, you know, what if I'm being really mean, that I think you said something about, you know, be wholehearted and look at that and practice with that. So that way, they kind of, to realize the gift, is that right? Because I think these extreme examples keep popping in my head, like, you know, what if somebody was abused by their parents in childhood? Like, how is that a gift? Like, it seems almost insulting to like,

[62:40]

say that that's a gift. Would you still call that a gift? Yes. But I wouldn't say that to the child. But I might say to the child when she grows up and becomes somebody who's able to wholeheartedly give, then we can turn around and look at where she thought there wasn't giving. and she can realize there was, and then she's healed. This is a practice to save our... to liberate our history, to heal past wounds by seeing what would have been helpful at the time, but we couldn't do. We couldn't be wholehearted when we were a little girl. If we had been wholehearted... It wouldn't have been an injury.

[63:41]

It would have been a great moment, like all moments like that. We would have seen it was giving, verified, and transmitted that. But before we train, we can see almost nothing. Many gifts we don't see as gifts. Like we have very nice parents, and they're trying to be giving to us, but we don't see it. We think it's not giving. We think it's, you know what? Then later, we wake up and we say, oh my God, there's two worlds. And now I see the other one, which I never saw before because I didn't know how to be wholehearted in any world. So then basically giving was just according to what my unconscious told me was giving. these coherent stories, that's giving and that's not. In both cases, those stories are gifts.

[64:46]

But if I don't practice giving, I may not see anything as a gift. But if I do wholeheartedly practice it, the bottom of the bucket drops out, and then I see everything's reflecting the moon, and the moon's not abiding in anything. But if my granddaughter is feeling unhappy about something, I don't tell her it's a gift. I just see that she's a gift to me. And I can almost always see that she's a gift to me, because I'm always giving to her, even when she slaps me in the face. It's like, whoa, this is a big gift. It's a real big gift. And what should we do about this gift, Frankie? And then she goes, because she's kind of struggling.

[65:51]

She's not sure it was a gift. But I don't say that to her. I don't say it was a gift. I just go, oh, that was really a strong slap. And But it probably wouldn't be good to hit the kid to school like that, right? Yeah, but it's easy for me to remember I'm giving to her. And she knows that's my job. And she accepts all my gifts, unless she doesn't want them. And then she rejects them, which I see as a gift. But she's learning. She's learning. And someday, all the things which she couldn't see were gifts, she will wake up to. Yeah, I can see how I have to let myself kind of... Because sometimes I think I'm trying to push through, like, okay, everything's a gift, like, let me see this as a gift without... And then I'm...

[67:04]

I'm like trying to force it, you know what I mean? Like if there's something that I'm upset about, I think I need to just be, like let the feelings be and be compassionate. Letting the feelings be is generous. So letting things be is very closely related to being generous. So if you don't feel generous, you don't say, well, that's not true. You say, okay, we got not feeling generous. Yes, I hear you. And in the wholeheartedness of that, the bottom of the bucket drops out. And then we can help other people who do not see the gifts. But I don't so much say it's a gift, I just practice generosity towards it. And then I see it's a gift. The generosity reveals that it's a gift. And if it is a gift, well then not. I already see it, and then I practice receiving the gift.

[68:07]

But if anything I don't see is a gift, if I practice generosity towards, I wake up till it is a gift. It gave me a chance to be generous. And basically, life is just testing to see if you can stay on the generosity ball with all that comes. And it's a real big challenge. Some people say, I'm up for it. I'm not saying I'm always going to be able to stay on the ball, but I want to be. I want to be able to receive everything as an act of generosity and respond as an act of generosity. Yeah, I'm up for it. Yeah, great. I've seen lots of people who aspire to be bodhisattvas who forget their aspiration. But when they remember, they almost never say, I've changed my mind. I still want to do it.

[69:11]

I just forgot for a while. I still think that that's a good idea. I just forgot when she slapped me. A little while ago, we were discussing a pearl. What about the bowl? What about the bowl? Let's meditate on that, shall we? That's another little tidbit of history. I used to, in the San Francisco Zen Center on Page Street, I used to sit before Zazen started in the morning.

[70:19]

I used to go early and sit with one of those, are they called monkey bowls? What do you call those white bowls that we, huh? Yeah. I used to sit with those white monkey bowls on top of my head with marbles inside. And it's, you know, when you move, they roll around and they make noise. So I was trying to sit without them rolling around. Or at least rolling quietly. Alive or dead? I'm not safe.

[71:20]

That's the right answer. Yeah. I've been around for a while. Apparently. What else won't you say? What else won't you say? What else won't you tell me? Oh, I don't know. So, is freedom also rolling like the fear? Freedom is also a pearl. That's rolling on itself. Freedom is rolling, is pivoting with not freedom. Freedom not just sitting there, freedom. It's freedom, not freedom. Freedom. Not freedom. Freedom. Not freedom. Freedom is really not freedom.

[72:22]

Not freedom is really freedom. So we don't need to worry about being the chickens that were believed and went back to them. We don't need to worry, no. We don't need to worry, but we can if we want to. Also, we don't need to worry, but we can be amazed at those chickens coming out of those boxes and flying into the golf course. And it's amazing. Have you ever seen chickens walking around who hurt a lot of chickens walking around a golf course? It's amazing. And then to see them walk back off the golf course and get them, it's amazing. So I wasn't worried, but I was really amazed. And I thought, this is a good Zen story. Like everything else. And some of the Zen stories are hard to understand. And then we do.

[73:23]

And can I offer a story that kind of goes with what Dao asked about the gift? Yes. I think it's, who taught my teacher, I think her teacher, Aoyama Roshi, and it was after the Second World War in Japan that the monks were practicing, begging, but was fine. that the country was poor and people were struggling. So sometimes people would be begging, knocking doors in houses, and people just give a bucket of dirty, cold water. And then the monk who received that went to the teacher and said, what is this? And she said, yeah, we still do that, because now it's what people are able to give. Yes. You're welcome.

[74:35]

Could you hold up the flower there? Don't raise it up. Just hold it up. I'm not close to see it at least. Just enough to see it. Can you all see it? Higher? As long as we don't think it's a right hand. Okay, okay. Is it beautiful? Not yet. Has it ever been beautiful to you?

[75:39]

Have you ever called it beautiful? I never have. How about that man in Life Magazine? He called him beautiful. He called what he was doing and what he saw there beautiful. Did you speak to him? Yes. You want me to repeat it? No. I said, I think what I said was, oh yeah, deep thought, you know, when the body is in deep thought, it looks beautiful. And that's what I said. But before Zika Rishi said, before he warned me, I used to say things were beautiful, but since then I don't do it very often. I keep hearing it though. For me? Yeah, I do.

[76:39]

And you call it the coolest, too. Coolest? That's different. And you say, like, all these people, the assembly here sitting upright is beautiful. I did? Yeah. Oh, you caught me. You caught me sinning. Would you like to confess? Huh? Would you like to confess? If I have said that something is beautiful, I confess I have sinned, and I'm sorry. Would you like to help us understand why this is a problem? Would I like to help you understand? That's all. Yes. Why is this a sin? Why is this a problem? Why do we keep doing it? Why do we keep praising? Why do we keep praising? Why do we keep praising? Our own religion. practice I don't know why but I'm going to continue probably

[78:04]

I'm going to continue to say homage to the perfection of wisdom, the lovely, the holy. But I don't know why. And will you criticize the ancient emperors? I didn't criticize them. I don't criticize them. I might critique them like, that doesn't look helpful. I might say that. But I'm not criticizing like putting them down. Not that kind of criticize. I don't want to do that. If I do, I confess. I put somebody down. But I want to be able to say, I think that was unskillful driving and lift the person up. I want to say that's unskillful driving and let's be devoted to this unskillful driver and help him get out of the car or get driver's education.

[79:24]

Not like he's not worthy of compassion. Not like that kind of criticism. So I want to include that unskillful driver in myself and see myself in an unskillful driver because that's what I believe is reality. I don't want to put anybody down and I don't want to put down the thought that puts them down. So if I think that that person is lower than I kindly say, that was really not the way I want to be. You're being a silly boy. And then the silly boy says, I'm sorry. I'm sorry I had that thought. Yeah, but you're not going to pay homage to Donald Trump.

[80:27]

You're not going to put him in the same place. You do not think he's at the same level as the Buddha. same level as Buddha. It's all the pearl rolling around. It's all the same size of the pearl. Whether we think it's skillful or unskillful driving, we don't really know. I vow to pay homage to the identity of Donald Trump and the Buddhas. which is to pay identity to Buddhas, to pay homage to the identity of Buddhas and deluded people. The pearl is Buddhas and deluded people pivoting on each other.

[81:37]

There's no Buddhas separate from Donald Trump. If I resist this such a being, I resist the buddhas. You haven't turned it for me yet. Thank you very much. I was, you read my mind, thank you. Well, maybe I haven't turned for you, but maybe the situation can turn it.

[82:40]

Maybe it's not all my job to turn it. But maybe we together will let it turn. But I feel you've helped me. say that Donald Trump is inseparable from Buddhas. And I want to realize that inseparability... Would you say he's avalakitajara? He's hearing the cries of millions and responding. What I say is Abhilakiteshvara, I would say he's an avatar of Abhilakiteshvara, who looks like what people would call various things.

[83:44]

They've said a lot of things about Abhilakiteshvara. Yeah, and so monsters are calling for compassion. They appear to help us learn how to listen with compassion to things we've never listened to compassion before. They're pushing our compassion beyond its limits, its previous limits. So, I hear your health is fragile. My health is fragile, too. And I'm going to leave Tassajara after this practice period.

[84:49]

Will you take me with you? Only if we can hang out all the time. I don't... I don't agree to that arrangement. When you're stuck here. Okay. Anything but that. But yeah, you'll leave in a few days too. But we have to take care of each other. I agree with that. But for some reason, there's this ego that pops up and it's like, well, if you leave the monastery and you can't do that, you'll never wake up and you're a failure. And I kind of brought this up with you before, but it just doesn't seem to be getting any better. I thought you could say, I brought this up before, but you still don't seem to get it.

[85:54]

That's it. I'm trying to tell you this, and you don't seem to understand. You know, I got more time on this earth than you do. I got a lot more. I'm a lot younger. And I don't have the fancy robes yet. So I just can't seem to take care of myself. How do you do it? I don't know. But, yeah, I don't know. But I told you when I was down in that Zendo pit down there, you know, where it's much colder than up here. We didn't have heating. And, yeah, I was like not being kind to myself. And I was really concentrated on not being kind, you know, coercing myself into following my breathing.

[87:03]

And I got to see that that's not what I came here for. So since then, I've been much more kind and understanding to myself. I was concentrated in a way down there, but not the way I want to be concentrated. So then I found other ways to be concentrated that I love. And I still feel like, well, maybe I'm actually quite calm and present. and relaxed just like I feel like I am but not by coercing myself into being calm and present and relaxed but allowing myself to but I don't know how I am able to allow myself to be this person how I'm able to remember I don't know how that I don't know how this practice is happening but I'm very grateful that it is and I get more and more of it and I feel more and more like praising it and saying thank you to it yeah but I don't know how that all works but it is working and I think you see the ingredients but I don't know how it is that those nice ingredients come out of the universe and get applied to me

[88:29]

I don't know why everybody's so kind to me. And I don't know why, just the robes. I don't know how I got these robes. There's various stories, coherent stories about how I got them. But I don't know if that's really the way they came. So I don't know how it works, but I do believe that being generous, et cetera, is the way. I want to go. And I want to help other people go that way too if they want to. And if they want to be at peace, I think this is the way to go. But I don't know how it all works. I don't know why we're so fortunate to have this problem of this practice and have this problem of keeping it alive. Yeah, and I have this problem keeping me alive.

[89:34]

I mean, when I think about how we talk about practice, practice like your head's on fire, like you're a fish that's about to drown. Well, actually, you're a fish in a puddle, you're not going to drown. It's just you're not going to have much fun in a puddle. If you were in the ocean, maybe it might be fun. But what pleasure is there for a fish to be in a puddle? If the sun's out, the puddle's eventually going to evaporate. Yeah. So we can practice with that. It makes me feel like I'm supposed to do things that can hurt me. Like what? Oh, like what? Set your head on fire? You're not supposed to do that. So tell me the things you're supposed to do, and I'll tell you if you are.

[90:36]

Well, I mean, the reason I had a seizure, I was just not getting enough sleep, but I didn't want to miss Zazen, so I didn't sign up. So maybe if you would have asked me, I would have said, I think maybe more sleep would be good for the time being. I wouldn't say you're supposed to get less sleep than what the doctor recommends. I probably wouldn't say that. So maybe we'll practice with you being somebody who gets more sleep. It just feels wrong. Yeah, but fine. And we'll practice with somebody who feels that it's wrong. That's the person we'll practice with. You're not supposed to be somebody... Nobody in the tradition is telling you you're supposed to be somebody other than yourself. So if you hear that as one of the things you're supposed to do, not be yourself, tell me about it. I say, I don't agree with that. So you being you is a big job. It's hard.

[91:38]

If you say, I'm supposed to do that, well, you're not supposed to do that. It's just that in order to be at peace, that's required. It's necessary. It's pivotal. It's necessary. And you being you means you being a person who needs a certain kind of food and rest and so on. And taking care of that person, the bottom of the bucket can drop out. It seems so egocentric to take care of this person. I don't know. Taking care of this person is taking care of the egocentric person. There's different ways to take care of the egocentric person. There's egocentric ways of taking care of the egocentric person. And those are what we call mistakes. And there's ways of taking care of egocentric persons which are not egocentric. For example, be generous towards the egocentric person.

[92:41]

Generosity is not egocentric. If it's egocentric, it's not generosity. So letting egocentric people be egocentric is not egocentric. It's beautific. Is it beautiful? For you I sin. So anyway. Caring for the egocentric person in a liberating way is not egocentric. If you're caring for an egocentric person in an egocentric way, like trying to control the egocentric person, that's not caring for him. That's hurting him. That's disrespecting him. If you respect the egocentric person, you do not try to control him.

[93:43]

I mean, if you respect wholeheartedly. And if you try to control them, you realize that that was a sin. That was egocentric. The ego is into control. So if you try to control a controlling egocentric person, that is more of the same. But to let him be egocentric, generously, joyfully let him be egocentric, that takes care of him in a way that is liberation. It's interesting you say that because one of the things that, you know, part of the doing real, you've got to be a soku. It's just like one of the jobs you have to do. And I probably will never serve karaoke after this practice period because it hurts my shoulders like crazy. But it's like I felt like I needed to, like I had to do it. And it was probably not the smartest thing in the world. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe sometimes you don't do the smartest thing in the world.

[94:47]

That's possible, right? Maybe. Yeah. And that's part of egocentric life, is doing or not doing the smartest thing in the world. That's egocentric consciousness stuff. But being generous towards that, you can enjoy that practice from now on. You can be generous towards the person who maybe cannot do soku anymore. You can be generous towards that situation. That will take care of this not-soku person. That's possible. You could take care of that person the way bodhisattvas would take care of that person. And you could also sometimes ask that person to do something really difficult as a gift. You could say, would you do this really difficult thing? I would really like you to do it. But not to control him, but just to sort of Ask him to do something you really would like him to do.

[95:50]

And the thing you might ask him to do is, would you please be generous towards this guy? And you might say, well, that's so hard. I say, yeah, but please be generous to this Greg and that Greg. That's so hard. It is. Yeah. Yeah. But I, actually, I ask you to do that hard thing. That's a hard thing which I ask you to do as a gift. And if you don't do it, It was just a gift. I'm not disappointed in you if you don't do that. I'll just ask you again when I have a chance. Maybe when I occasionally see you. I will say to you, are you being... generous to that guy? And you'll say, it's hard. And I say, yeah, it was hard before. It's still hard? You say, yeah, are you doing it? I say, I am, but it's so hard. And I say, thank you. And you say, you're welcome. We're assuming that I take care of myself from this point on, though.

[96:53]

I'm not assuming you are. That's what I'm saying. I'm asking you to take care of yourself in a compassionate way. I'm making that request. I'm asking you to do something hard, but that's a gift. I'm not doing that to get you under control. To get you like, okay, finally I got this guy being kind to himself. I'm asking somebody to do something which is hard and which he tells me is hard. And I don't expect you to do it. And if you don't, I'll still love you. And when I see you, I might say, how's the generosity going? You say, well, I've been a total failure. It's pretty likely. And I'll say... hey, would you please continue to try to do that, even though you've failed between the last time I asked? And you might say, okay. It's going to be so hard, probably the next time you see me I'll say I failed. I'm ready for that. Like that story, you know, that inspired my practice.

[97:57]

about this old lady who met this young man. And the young man said, you're such a kind person. What practice can I do to be like you? And she said, no matter what happens, say thank you very much. I have no complaints whatsoever. She said, that's what I practice. And he said, okay, I'll try. And then he saw her sometime later. And she said, well, how's this going? He said, well, I failed at doing the practice. She said, thank you very much. I have no complaints whatsoever. So if I ask you to do that and you tell me you fail, I'll say thank you very much and ask you to do it again. Or not. But now I'm asking you to be generous towards this person. That's how I'm asking you to take care of him. of letting him be, even while he's thinking all these tough things he's supposed to do, which I don't agree he's supposed to do.

[99:03]

But I still want to let him be that person. And I think you understand. I'm asking you to be generous to this person. And you're telling me now, and you'll probably tell me again, that's really hard for me to do. And I say, I understand. I'm giving you... I'm asking you to do something that... You say it's hard and I'm still asking you to do it. There's other hard things which I'm not asking you to do. I'm not asking you to be soku. But I am asking you to be generous towards the person who is not soku. I am. Even though it's hard. You can do hard things and you can do hard things which are really helpful and hard things that aren't. You can try to control yourself which is really hard. But it's not helpful. You can give up trying to control yourself, which is really hard, and it is helpful. You can be generous, and it is helpful.

[100:05]

You can be not generous, and it's not. Both are hard. They're both hard. One's the path to liberation, the other's to just more suffering. So let's be kind to the person who's doing stupid stuff. Let's be generous to him. And that's hard. I could be generous to him if he wasn't so silly. I can't be generous to him. He's an adult. He shouldn't be doing that. I'm not arguing with you about that. I'm just saying be generous to him. Anyway, no matter what he is, be generous. Even if he's Donald Trump, be generous. And that's hard. All right, we'll talk about it next time we hang out. Okay. Yeah, also, take your meds. I can do that.

[101:05]

You just got insomnia. I know that's hard, but that's another request. Are you doing okay with all these people asking you questions? I am, and I'm also appreciating that some people... one person told me it's too much for him. And I said, well, you can leave if it's too much. So I'm okay, but I'm also aware that this is a lot. It's a lot. I know. I wanted to thank your jisha and your angja for all of the work that they have been doing. I'm saying it to your face, but they're around here somewhere. If I... You heard that, Barbara, right? He's thanking you for all the work you do.

[102:06]

He's thanking you. Also, thank Eleanor. Anyway, thank you for thanking them. Yes, there will be. I was Shisha and Andra for some time, and so I know the gig. And there was an understanding I had about this story with Judy, but I'm not going to talk about it right now. Okay. If you get to the point. I wanted to ask you for a simple trap, you know, not something too complicated. It struck me that when I leave here, I'm going to forget the vast majority of what you've said. And, you know... If everything goes well, one day in the future I will hear of your death and I will be very sad. And so maybe I could, like, go, you know, write something down illegally in my room after, if you give me something. Or, and I'm aware of the irony of asking for something, but, you know, somebody around here told me that the teacher-student relationship is...

[103:20]

a performance of ultimate reality in some sense. I can't remember. And then somebody else also said that when a student asks something of a teacher, they're asking for a trap. And if you put two and two together, it sounds like you're stuck in a set of traps, like you just kind of, you're just asking for traps all day long, in some sense. Yeah, I think that... I agree with whoever said the student-teacher relationship is the performance of reality. And part of the student-teacher relationship is for the student and the teacher to give each other traps. Part of reality is that reality gives traps in order to realize reality. So human beings are like traps that the universe has made for the universe to realize itself. I don't know.

[104:24]

Anyway, it seems like the universe needed to make life, and then it needed to make egocentric people, and egocentric people are trapped. They're trapped in that. So that's part of reality, is we have these traps, these trapped people. So part of the student-teacher relationship is to work with those traps and reiterate it. consciously in the relationship and then use the trap as a way to realize freedom. Yes. Also sometimes called barriers, right? You know, the teachings are all sometimes called barriers. Barriers in order to realize freedom from barriers. Are there some easy ones? Like, I'm not such a man. Like, you talk a lot about complicated ones, I think. Yeah, being jisha is an easy one. Jesus is like a trap that you can use to become free.

[105:26]

It seems like, you know, kind of difficult sometimes, but it's actually kind of a simple one. And after people are Jesus for a long time, they become Zen masters. By working with this trap of being this attendant and, you know, all those problems with the help of somebody who gave you that opportunity to help you become free of it. So, yeah. So it's a great opportunity to be trapped in that position with somebody who gave it to you just for the purpose of becoming free of it. And that's what reality is about. It's not just real, it's also helping us become free. And so traps are part of it, yeah. I think I will say my story very quickly. I know it's late. Go ahead. Almost exactly one year ago, I was in a shuso ceremony. And I think there's a book I think I have to carry around.

[106:33]

And it's a nice walk. I've taken that walk a few times now. I was so privileged to have been able to do so. Anyway, the jisha also comes really early on in the questioning, I think. Maybe the second or something like that. So... there was my teacher, and I had like the sort of, you know, side-on view of the senior people in the distance, and then the Shuso, and then closest to me was my teacher. And then, with my turn, I said, Shuso, and I said, hi. And then reality was expecting me to say something. And it occurred to me at that particular time, not the best time maybe, but this was the last time I was going to be formally with my teacher. And I was stricken with a whole flurry of difficult... Difficult wouldn't even describe it. My mind was blank.

[107:35]

It was like a line blank. I started to cry, but it was also silent. And I couldn't say anything. And people were definitely waiting for me to say something. And I couldn't say anything. And I kept trying to say something, or waiting to say something, and then eventually I was like, this is getting ridiculous. So I bowed. I didn't think it was getting ridiculous. There wasn't anything in my head. Yeah. So sometimes, sometimes you can't say anything. Yeah, even not reality is telling you that if you say something, she'll take her hat off. But you can't. It's just so intense. Well, thank you, everybody, for sitting here so long. It looks like the fourth day of Tangari right here.

[108:42]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[109:07]

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