We've been talking about the Blue Cliff Records story, number five, all this week. And in the story, reality, something translated as reality, comes up several times. And in this story, by reality, something is meant, like maybe the other side of existence, or existence seen or existence itself, but not caught by the outlook of existence. This story dates from around 1000 A.D., I think, and at that time there was a great deal of persecution of Buddhism in China.

[01:34]

And most of the schools of Buddhism, the Shingon or Tantric school, which is the school of Buddhism closest to Zen, and Tendai and Kegon, all of them suffered greatly during the persecution and nearly disappeared because they were rather dependent on patronage and rituals and buildings, etc. At least this is the Zen version of the disappearance. But Zen, you know, many monasteries and temples were destroyed. Maybe Buddhism had become too attractive and convincing in China. So there were too many monks, for one thing.

[02:39]

cut them down. Anyway, Zen survived fairly well because you don't need much to do Zazen and each person is his own practice place. So the many Zen people went from they would move from one province to another depending on which one was least in an uproar. Or they would live in the mountains. And during this time was one of the strongest periods of Zen Buddhism when many great figures emerged. And Seppo is one of the most characteristic figures of this time of persecution, not only because of the social hardship of the time, but because of his great difficulty in practicing. As you know, he visited many teachers many times, and Tozan nine times, and thrown out by Tozan the last time.

[04:10]

So this reality seems to come out often when there is some hardship or difficulty or extremity, when we don't have time to think. But it doesn't mean that we should look for hardship. Yesterday I spoke about our fear of joy or bliss and how we interrupt that kind of experience even when it occurs in the safe, relatively safe context of Dāsana. And today I'm talking about suffering. Why we suffer or have to suffer is quite clear if you're practicing. I can't say it makes sense, but it's not something you're avoiding. But to look for hardship by some ascetic practice won't work. The hardship you choose is not real hardship. And it's interesting, many people who take some hard way of practice

[05:54]

are quite indulgent with themselves. So for Zen, our way is to be rather strict with ourselves. Our practice, all in all, is pretty easy, but because we are strict with ourselves, it's rather difficult. And if you have some glimpse into this reality, you know, if you aren't willing to give up something, you know, the life that's led to this reality being hidden, you'll have some pretty difficult suffering. And to give up means you have to be rather strict with yourself. So when Seppo was with Ganto at the Gozan Mountain Pass, at that time when Ganto was sleeping and he found Seppo still awake doing zazen and asked him, why are you awake?

[07:24]

Why aren't you sleeping?" And Ganto said, because still something is bothering me. Something is still uneasy in my mind. And as I said to you, Ganto said, that which comes in through the gate is not our family treasure. It's not an heirloom. some Chinese expression like that, I don't know exactly. But he said, there are various ways I've heard what he said expressed and various kinds of statements. The story occurs in various forms. And one thing he supposedly said was, you must get through everything by your true nature. you must get through everything by your true nature.

[08:51]

If you think, you know, the first and second principle, you should always acknowledge the first principle. Or first and second principle are not the same, you'll have some confusion. How to express What I'm talking about I can't really say, so I'm just giving you some framework, maybe, or information. But I'm trying to speak about how these Zen teachers made an effort to express the inexpressible. how they made an effort to express the first principle. This expression is the second principle. Just form is not the second principle. But some expression of the first principle is the second principle.

[10:06]

So, you know, there's a story that a Brahmin asked Buddha how to express that which can't be expressed and Buddha didn't say anything. This doesn't mean that if he'd said something he would have been expressing the second principle. He was just trying to show He was just standing there. Just standing there may be enough. Suzuki Roshi had a very difficult time himself with this idea of first and second principle. He couldn't understand it. some years, it bothered him. And he was rather strict with himself in trying to observe first principle, you know, as he thought it was. And his various people said various things to him about the first and second principle, which he couldn't understand. One statement is about a rather well-known Zen master who lived in Nara,

[11:53]

And he always hit the deer in Nara. If some of you have been to Nara, there's these somewhat tame deer who are a little skittery. During rutting season, they're a little dangerous, actually. And we have to be a little cautious of them. They're rather small, kind of messy animals. who have a rather interesting cry though, make a nice noise. Anyway, this Zen teacher always hit the deer, and he was criticized for it. But he said, if I don't hit the deer, they will become too tame and hurt someone. So someone said to Suzuki Yoshi, Kindness to animals is the first principle. Hitting the deer is the second principle. Suzuki Roshi couldn't understand what that meant. And someone else told him, Seppo's remark, having a cup of tea is first principle, and the cup is second principle. This kind of distinction is maybe rather useless.

[13:19]

Another famous dialogue is, you know, what someone asks, what is Buddhism? the teacher says, your name is Neil Hung. Again, this kind of attempt to express something, you know. Have a cup of tea. So, the point in Buddhism, in Zen practice, is to be ready for

[14:28]

anything, you know. To see, to find the first principle on everything, on each occasion, on each moment. So in doksan, or in your practice here in this room, just to express anything that's on your mind, or just to feel. Well, I am just as I am, so whatever I am must be Buddhism. That's true, you know. So I'll just be what I am, and that's Buddhism. That's true, and I think that's helpful when we're worried, to remember that.

[15:29]

But as a motto or practice, I'm not so good. we should be trying to express something unknown or some pressure you know when you practice maybe there's some pressure or some intimation that you can't

[16:31]

You hardly know yourself, you know? But we try to express that intimation by just being silent, maybe, by some feeling of it while we are speaking. by some obscure statement or cry. So that is what Ganto meant by you must get through everything by your true nature. When you encounter something, you don't try to solve it in usual way.

[17:50]

But to solve it by practice is some mystic cry, maybe. Some energy or curious reserve or effort. without thinking you step into it. But you need some confidence in such a situation and some strictness with yourself and some experience of yourself of control or great familiarity with your inner nature.

[18:57]

Otherwise, you can't give yourself free reign. You'll be scared. Or if you don't want to be strict with yourself, your house will be topsy-turvy. So Ganto said, you know, it must come out from you, from your innate nature. But what this innate nature is, you know, we can't say. But even though we can't say, you know, still on each occasion we try to express something.

[19:59]

This effort will awaken our deep reserves, our reservoirs. And each occasion will be some opportunity for you to acknowledge yourself and to acknowledge your situation and the person or people you're with. with this kind of acknowledgement you enter another world. This is sometimes called warm-hearted We feel in this kind of situation some freedom or joy. Do express this.

[21:42]

And you'll find, you know, when you make that kind of effort, that each person is actually expressing something like this. I'm reminded of when I was a student. J. Robert Oppenheimer came to Cambridge and He's a very intense man, and he'd be walking along the street, and he'd come down the street, and you could look at him, you know? And usually when you look at someone, they have some blank look. Or if they're somebody famous, they are embarrassed or rather don't want to be recognized but relieved that they are or something like that. So there's some funny feeling particularly with famous people.

[23:30]

And most people are scared if you look at them. But he was rather interesting because he would look right at you with some kind of hello there or something, something piercing. And if you responded in kind, something interesting occurred. I don't know why, but I remember once when I passed him You know, it's some kind of lots of people walking and suddenly there's this strange person who winks at you. Just one eye. Rather interesting feeling, you know. And then you find out that many people have had this experience with him. Some commanding look or some lack of fear. You know, that's rather obvious, this story I just told, but actually with each person, if you look at them, not too strongly, otherwise they get scared, that strange look so-and-so gives you, but just an ordinary look, but quite observant, quite alert, and in each person you'll see some intimation, some sense of something beyond there.

[25:00]

status. So without knowing it we're actually making such an expression, but for ourselves we have to make some effort, otherwise we get entangled. When you see the first principle on each thing, it leads naturally to the next thing. But when you don't, when you're caught by those circumstances, you don't, it doesn't lead to the next thing. So we feel if we're in love. We don't want to be detached. It's something opposite. But if you're in love and you're not detached, It will get rather mixed up. Actually, next step won't occur. But if you're in love and detached, somewhat detached, the next step of your love will be there.

[26:15]

So we call it various names, detachment, or first principle, or some intimation. And practice is to be awake to that physically, bodily. So you feel some tremor. When you see something, you know, your whole body trembles. Not just your eyes looking, but your stomach looks too. in this way you'll feel other people's stomach. So forgetting about thinking, perceiving, we begin to perceive with our shoulders and arms and legs and stomach, back, etc.

[28:28]

and you feel yourself immersed in a physical, but not solid, alive kind of world. To deny this feeling is to not be strict with yourself. We are usually not strict with ourselves because we fear this feeling. We can't

[30:03]

We're afraid of what it'll do to our plans and hopes and we're afraid where it will take us because we have no sense of control. No sense of how to exist in suffering. in this warm-hearted kind of practice. Something you want to talk about this last day of session?

[31:07]

It seems like you need control to be able to deal with such a feeling, but the feeling usually has to be so out of control that... Well, your thoughts are okay, it's your identification with your thoughts that causes the problem. So you have to keep withdrawing your identification from your thoughts. Thoughts are all right, you can stop them if you want, but the important thing is not the stopping of thoughts, they are just some thin vessel, you know. But did you, you know, bail out? Yeah, I know. So more practice is necessary.

[32:28]

Would you say that again? Once more, please. There could be worse thoughts. Although, you know, if you... if you are convinced of practice or convinced that you're going to practice. It's just something that has turned over. That's the best way, of course, to practice. It's good not to be too hard on yourself.

[34:24]

in with ourselves but in particular, you know, not too hard on ourselves. So we recognize what we're doing as some process, if it's praising ourselves or criticizing ourselves as some need and we let it go. You know, I think when we have, I'm not exactly answering your question, but when we have some opportunity to let go or to drop a thought, we should take it. Problem is that when we have an opportunity, we don't take it. We think, oh, it's just, oh, my habit is too immense, you know, just refusing to eat this extra cookie this once. won't do any good. I like cookies too much, so I might as well have this one cookie. But one cookie, deciding once, is 50%. It's at that level we practice. So, important thing is when an opportunity occurs to drop a thought, we drop it. But we don't make some big effort to chop

[35:51]

away. We wait for the opportunity, we create opportunities for opportunities, and take them, to not do something, to let something go. Sometimes we need, anyway, what I'm getting back to is, sometimes we need to congratulate because we need some encouragement. Usually we are too difficult, too tough on ourselves. And we, you know those cartoon characters, you know, and you push down here and they pop up over here. Most of us are popped up over here, holding down over here. You understand what I mean? So this person does everything quite well. But he's always acting deep down. He knows he's pushed down over here. That he's acting and doing what he's doing and accomplishing this and that because he feels like he's lousy or something. So we need to let this person up.

[37:11]

So I think talking about yesterday experiencing some joy, related to that is some recognition in some way that what we're doing is beginning to make more sense, or this actually seems of some value. Some kind of recognition of that may be helpful. But then there are all kinds of carrying it too far, congratulating ourselves, or when it becomes something, some pastry or something hiding, then you should be cautious. What I'm trying to suggest is that any thought is not so important, actually. It depends on what you invest with it. So if something comes, it comes. That's all. We don't need to smash

[38:49]

meager little self-congratulatory thought. I'm experiencing someone who has a very negative reaction to being hit with a stick, like a junco, you know, having a very, you know, a kind of a piazza thing, or crying out, being hit a second time, it's harder, harder. And I think the desire to hit is very sincere, and the desire to make some money. But I wonder if it's really helpful. And so many people, if they look at it, it's not just one person. And I wonder if it's something that people need to be told. Do you mean you feel there are a lot of people in Ascendo who don't like to be hit? No, I think in one particular situation, there's someone who has a very negative reaction to being hit on a stick. And actually cries out or screams, being hit a second time just as hard and harder. And it's been very helpful. In this session? Hmm.

[40:11]

If someone has some pretty difficult time with being hit, they should talk to Mark or Rev or myself. I think sometimes we hit some people too hard. Sometimes I think people hit Pat, for example, maybe too hard. She's rather older than most of us. It's not so easy to absorb the stick. But my feeling in general, with some specific person, I would be happy to talk with them, but my feeling in general is if you have some reaction to the stick, emotional reaction or feeling about it, best thing is to do is to ask for it. It's not doing any physical damage.

[41:48]

So, and to me that much difficulty or pain is not very important. Are you suffering more than the person who's being hit? I remember once a

[42:58]

girl in the Zendo at Bush Street was crying quite a bit during Sashin. I can't remember the details now. Quite this mournful crying. And afterwards, it went on most of the day. I remember correctly, and in the evening, I slept there for Sashina, and I was going to bath, and Suzuki Yoshi was coming from the bath. And I said something to him about her crying, what could we do about it. And he said, haven't you ever heard a baby cry? And he walked away. It's a pretty simple statement, and also it could be a little... If I hadn't been so respectful of Suzuki Roshi, I might have been a little irritated. Too easy an answer. But it made me think about suffering.

[44:30]

not somebody being hit by the stick, but about each person's right, you know, to have their own suffering. If every time you suffer, lots of people rush in to stop it, help you, or even worry about that you're suffering. It's sometimes more difficult something else. Yeah?

[46:10]

I find that I've sort of acquired a reputation as being a spiritual person, and people talk to me about Buddhism, and discuss Buddhism intellectually, and talk about it very intellectually, and I find this very confusing and embarrassing, and I don't know who I'm going to talk to, and I don't know how to respond to them. Do you have any suggestions? Yeah, I know. I remember a girl back in those early days, too. whose mother wrote her this very upset letter that she heard she was going to church three times a week and had become a religious fanatic. Because anybody who goes to church every morning and forth must be quite nuts. So we get some reputation like that. I think the best thing is to Treat it not as religion but more as some practice in which you're just amateur and they should practice too if they want. I don't think there's any other answer. But also, if your practice is good, just your practicing is enough without your doing something or saying something.

[47:39]

Already the fact that they react that way, you know, is making them think of their situation in another context. So instead of trying to answer their question, it's to continue them in that new context. Do you understand what I mean? I don't know, I get a little short-tempered myself. One time someone was rather pleading with me to do some story about Zen Center, some publication about Zen Center and how extremely important it was that everybody know about Zazen and so we should agree how absolutely essential it was to know about Zazen and everyone should be able to do it and they should be able to write or film or whatever and he was really quite

[49:06]

adamant that it was the most important thing in the world to do this so people would know about it. And I finally couldn't resist saying that I hadn't seen him in Zazen ever, you know. Yeah? When you talk about letting ourselves feel free to have certain experiences, is it possible to go too far? Yeah, if you don't know how to be strict with yourself. As I've expressed to someone, Sashin, and also I've talked about it some months ago, several times, you know, the basic attitude in Zen is like you know, in psychology, you either express or repress something. In Zen, we don't express or repress. But we allow everything to occur, but we don't act on it. It's another kind of Buddhist practice to act on it. That's something more subtle and actually what this story, number five, is about. But that's rather for a mature Zen practice.

[50:41]

When I say let yourself have some experience, I mean the kind of context that when you're in zazen you can feel some pain and not move. The more you can have, you know, just practically speaking, if you lock yourself into expression as a mode of release or search, you decrease the possibilities immensely because you only have a certain amount of time to express things, and a certain amount of opportunity, and only certain things can be expressed. But if you don't express things and can allow simultaneous realities or contradictory realities, you can experience many worlds, many things. And of course what we're talking about is expressing something that isn't possible to be expressed. So, in practice usually the first is to learn to maintain yourself under various circumstances and then allow some great freedom in that.

[52:14]

and then begin to express something that you couldn't reach before. And that which you couldn't reach before is what reaches everyone and allows you some common commotion. If you feel some attachment to something, but also at the same time you feel from the attachment. Should you just play that thing?

[53:30]

And that's my goal. I should be able to express and to live through. Could you hear what he said in the back? He said if you find yourself with some, maybe, I don't get it right. If you find yourself with some attachment, and yet also a detachment too, should you then just get rid of the attachment, because with detachment you can, maybe? We maybe would die if we did that completely, but detachment and attachment are maybe the same thing almost. Or should you live out that attachment? I think you live out that attachment. But, or rather, if you have some detachment, you know, you see things in a wider scale, where it doesn't make so much difference one way or the other. So you can create some possibility for that attachment

[55:02]

exist. But if it doesn't work, it's not so serious. With that feeling, you're much more likely to make it work, actually. If you're too attached to making it work, you're likely to lose everything. Also, of course, we try, but we more let the intelligence of phenomena, I say, the intelligence of the events themselves, you know, there's more a kind of, as you can begin to, in Zazen, let it happen, you know, you can begin in your life to let it happen. Things have their own intelligence.

[56:12]

Wave follows wave, wave leads wave. So to allow that space, something can grow. And that space is only possible with some detachment. That space which lets the real event, too much. Please try to be strict with yourself in Sashin and in practice. It's the only way to begin to be able to accept the hardship of others and yourself.

[58:24]

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