Good evening. It's like being home in the family. There are many people that I still know from when I used to live here. And then there are people from establishing the path program that I got to know over the last year. And then there are people that I just know from. practice discussions that never lived here. And and then a good friend of mine is here from Switzerland and she's sitting there. And that's wonderful, too, because she's here just in that week. That is kind of, you know, a scheduling disaster because Tuesday evening was a meeting with. Establishing the path, people.

[01:02]

Tonight is a Dharma talk. Tomorrow I come here to see people for practice discussion all day. Friday, I'm going to sweat over calligraphy on rock issues, which I probably spend a few sleepless nights before then trying to get ready. And Saturday is an ordination coming up where five women are going to receive the precepts, which is a first for them and the first for me. So that will be exciting. And then on Sunday, there's a Dharma talk at Green Gulch. So how to be in the middle of. so much dharmic events going on is kind of like on some level wonderful because you just have to keep letting go and [...] walking around the block when you can't anymore and then try again, you know.

[02:17]

And it's wonderful. And so it's very nice to come here to that night. you all. I feel so supported by this community. Always. And I love coming here. I love going home after I've been here. So I have like two homes now, which is just very special. So I want to express my appreciation for just you sitting here, being willing to listen to me and What I thought of talking about tonight is not about ordination, because that's kind of too close to even know what to say about it right now. But Marcia and I are teaching or have been teaching a class here for couples where we.

[03:25]

Worked with rituals and ceremonies to create and support intimacy, trust and openness in a couple relationship. And we've done a workshop at Tassajara last year with that and we thought we'd try a class and the class was six evenings. And we have extended it for two more evenings because six times is just not quite enough. And they made great leaps the last time. And now we have one more coming up next week. And I thought about those rituals and ceremonies. And I've been thinking more and more also about how they would be applicable for living in community. Because here you are, I'm just visiting, but I was once here too, thrown together with people you do not pick, you do not choose, you would never, sometimes never dream of trying to live in the same space with them, and here you are.

[04:43]

They have the seat next to you or the room next to you or sit at the table next to you or use your shower stall in the morning. And we all have our little attachments and preferences. And so we get into each other's way here and there and everywhere. And then we try to fix the problems that are arising and we sit down and we start having conversations. which more often than not go in a way that they make things worse, not better. Because we feel threatened, we feel frightened, we feel not heard, we feel run over, ignored.

[05:50]

So there is a lot of human suffering coming forward. Plus, we go and sit in the Zendo and, you know, face our own suffering. So we're vulnerable. We're kind of thin-skinned. So we're more sensitive to each other. And we feel more... Like we have to survive. We have to kind of create safe spaces around you, which often means we have to rethink. It means we have to defend against intrusions or misunderstandings or misconceptions. But we are all here to practice. And the teachings say what we see out there, what we encounter out there is actually ourselves.

[07:02]

It's our projections. It's our perceptions. It's my reaction. Nobody makes me feel a particular way, even though I would love to. Put it out there. You did this and now I feeling this. So you're responsible. That's not really how it works. So what kind of forms could help with approaching difficult situation or when there is and there isn't just harmony happening and there's something we need to address. And I think is anybody here in the room that has not any meditation experience? Great. So because in meditation, one of the things we do learn and deepen over time is to be present with what it whatever it is that.

[08:22]

arises, whether that be in the mind or in the body or in your feelings, emotion, states of mind, to become able to be still, stay close and do nothing about it. Not feed it, not turn away from it, not grab it, not run with it, just be still. Be a witness, as Marcia used to say, in appreciation and compassion. Show up for yourself. There's a wonderful poem by Hafiz that goes, and love says, and love says, I will, I will take care of you. everything near I will I will take care of you to everything near that means to the food in front of you to the person beside you to your emotional state or mental state to

[09:53]

The pain in your body to the work at hand in front of you. I will I will take care of you. That's another way of what I think in some way being present. What for what with within in the midst of whatever is arising is. Another way of taking care, expressing that kind of love that Hafiz is talking about, which is unconditional. It's not love that is attachment, that is possessive, that is self-referencing. It's just taking care of everything that is near. So one thing that we... have played with and experimented with is we call it cushion talks.

[11:03]

And their talks in which we. Make a space to actually sit down together and. What we do first is we meditate for a little bit. We sit for a little bit. Do you have something to say? Go ahead. Oh, yes. I get that to that afterwards. I just want to explain the concept for it. I don't want to go in all the forms so you get a sense, because I think in in in the community, it may or may not be possible to do that.

[12:07]

But we do sit down, sits us in for a while to just get settled down. Each person settles down and then. When we're ready, one, we decide who starts and then one person just shares whatever they feel comfortable to share. But it's about their inner landscape. What's up for them in terms of. Thought processes, patterns, feelings, experiencing physical. You know, kind of. States what's here now. So, for example, it would be like. I feel pretty.

[13:10]

Pretty anxious, and I'm not quite sure if it's actually anxious or excited about all the things I still have to do for these two guys. So having to give a Dharma talk in the middle of this is quite a kind of making it more exciting or anxiety producing. I can't quite tell right now. So that would be like sharing how I feel right now. Part of it. So. Or it could be. This morning I woke up and I was just in a very foul mood. I don't know where it came from. I just woke up in that mood. And in that mood, I see everything as against me. Everything that happens is just doing something that's not helpful.

[14:15]

It's getting in my way or is hurting my feelings or is rubbing me the wrong way or. Stops me or is hostile towards me. That's how I perceive in that mood. And it's a familiar mood. I have that often. Or I'm very happy today and nothing can bother me. So it's just really saying what's happening here and what. And the other person is holding space and witnessing. is only listening and leaves it over there. It's not about them. They get to get a look into the inner space of the person. They get invited to know what's going on.

[15:17]

They're not invited to fix it. They don't have to fix it. They don't have to help it in any way. They don't they they don't have to feel blamed. They're not responsible. They're just witnessing in appreciation and compassion what the other person is saying and hold a space for that. When the first person is done with their talking, The other person can speak. Sometimes the person that talked first would say, would you like to say something? And if you have to say something, you can. But when you say something, you say when you said bloody, bloody, blah, I felt touched in a particular way or.

[16:18]

This came up in me. So it's not, oh, I think when you said that last night, you know, said that that happened because of last night. So you're not interpreting what the other person said or you're not adding to it or you're not explaining to it or, you know, anything. You just talk about what hearing what you heard evoked in you. Sometimes you think you want to say something. You can say, is it OK if I say something? And then the person that spoke can say, no, not right now, maybe later or yes, please. So there's no just going ahead and saying something or commenting about the other person. So then the second person shares and the first person just. As much as possible, hold space and doesn't meddle in what's being told, doesn't spin stories or if they start spinning, come back and just listen.

[17:26]

So it's the same. In some ways, it's a similar internal stance like being with yourself on the cushion. Just be close and do nothing. So I thought, how can that be translated? And the people that are in the group are practicing that now at home, and it's amazing what they discover. It's really a wonderful thing. And it's not easy because we have habits. If the author says, well, when you walked by this morning and you said something and you had a particular look on your face, that just triggered me. And I'm just feeling very anxious or very abandoned of... or very afraid what's going to come next or what did I do wrong? So when I say that, it's hard for the other person not to think they did something.

[18:34]

Or I say that saying they did something and now they should better fix it or not do this anymore. And they're responsible to what I do. It's my response. But my response is my response. So Blanche used to say, you know, offense may be given, but you don't have to pick it up. That's another way of saying if I feel offended, I picked something up. I did that. I that's my response. I own that response, not the other person. It also is a great kind of. Teaching because we can when we are witnessing, we can see how our habits of hearing, seeing, interpreting and reacting. Because we want to explain it. We want to fix it. We want to kind of defend it and say, no, this isn't what happened.

[19:39]

We want to. run away or we want to grab it. So we see our reactions and the task is to come back and be just there for the other person. So I was thinking, how can that be translated into, you know, maybe difficulties in living together? And I thought one way would be to actually find a form that's really a form and give it A safe space in terms of that you may bow to each other. You may sit down and there is a clear space between you. So you're not touching, even if you're very, you know, if you're a couple, you're not touching. And if you're not a couple and instead of having a conversation that maybe one person just shares. What's up for them?

[20:41]

And the other just listens. And then maybe not even the same day, but then maybe the next day the other person shares. So that there is. Because often when we have a conversation, one each each of us tries to convince the other of the view we have of what happened. So we're not even listening or while we're listening, we're already. you know, producing our arguments to kind of make our point and get our point across of what happened. So to to to kind of consciously let go of that and not do that is helping maybe to see more that this is a dependent co-arising. What happens is happening because

[21:43]

Both people were there in that particular way, plus many, many other circumstances that came to bear, like waking up with a good or bad mood or feeling not well in your body or having a lot on your mind or whatever. So. So to play with just listening and not responding. And then again, the other person listening and not responding, not being involved in responses.

[22:49]

I think one other thing that I thought of was. You know, to, for example, to just acknowledge that there is a difficulty. And that that could be a way to approaching the difficulty to learn about it instead of fixing it. To get it out of the way is to maybe agree. We have a difficulty. Can we try to experiment with just listening and then holding it, letting it be and then listen again and reveal again and letting it be and reveal again? Because what this does is it's it it can only work when both. are willing to enter that space.

[23:51]

So it's not like one person goes and says, I really do have a problem with you. Can we talk about this? And then the other person can say yes or not right now. But then the other comes. Can we talk about this now? You know, it's different when both say we do have a difficulty. Then already it's a little easier because it's clear we have a difficulty. And if one person has a difficulty with me, even though I may not feel the difficulty, I actually do have a difficulty with them because they have one with me. So it affects me. So even though I don't feel like originally I had one, if somebody comes and says, you know, I really have a problem with you, then it becomes. My problem. I can't say it's just your problem. I mean, I can say that and I can try that. That's actually not reality. Reality is that we are so interconnected and when somebody is unhappy with me, it affects me.

[24:56]

So it also what it stops doing when we try to kind of learn to listen instead of to talk or when we talk with just. Talk about what's going on inside, even if what's going on inside is triggered by something we perceived outside or the other person doing. We talk about what's inside. I lost my thread. It's gone. What it does, it takes away that it's somebody's fault. Some people tend to think it's the other person's fault as a habit.

[26:04]

And some people as a habit tend to think it's their fault. You know, I did something wrong. How can I fix it? This person is looking scowling at me or something. And both are hindrances in discovering what is the. Shared reality. And love says, I will, I will take care of you. Doesn't say I take care of you when it's easy. I take care of you when you're nice. I take care of you when you're exactly doing what I would like you to do. And if you don't, then I don't take care of you. to invite you to just.

[27:08]

Experiment. Because the reality is Marsha and I do that on a regular basic basis and it's like house cleaning. It's amazing. It's like it doesn't. Stuff doesn't pile up. Because. My mind certainly goes from time to time. Oh, she's doing that. And then I'm stacking it somewhere, you know, trying to make a little stack of something that affirms an image I start creating. Then I start expecting certain things that, oh, here she goes again or here I go again. So I kind of make a little account, you know, and I want to have something in it. If you do a cushion talk, you can't do it. It doesn't work. It just undoes the stack. by listening that way you refrain from interpreting and judging and explaining and putting motivations and anything on the other person and you let them be who they are.

[28:28]

You let them alone in some ways while you're intimately connected because they share. And that undoes all of The little stacks, the self-referencing mind builds up. So it frees definitely me, but it also frees the other person because we're connected. This is all I want to say tonight.

[29:29]

Does anybody want to say something or ask something? Yes. Some of us have been taking classes with Gary Freeman and Curtis on communicating in conflict and they teach a skill called looping, which is. You sit and you listen, as you've described, maybe not sit meditating first and setting up that container. But say if I'm listening to you, after you've spoken, I would say what I heard you say and try to also capture the feeling tone that you expressed. And then you would say whether I got it or not, in a sense. You speak your truth. You have some way of knowing whether the other person has actually heard you.

[30:32]

And I'm wondering, it sounds a little different from what you do. Yes, it's different. It's not a conversation. How do you know that the other person has actually heard what you meant? You're just revealing what's in you. You don't. Check whether the other person understood it doesn't that doesn't matter in that [...] kind of in that kind of practice. It's not about fixing. You do not have the conversation to fix something. It's you have the conversation to sync up and that's different.

[31:42]

Do you have something to say, Marcia? That's an active listening technique. And this is slightly different in that it's not about... You don't want to get into thinking about whether you've got it right or you've got it wrong. It's more like a direct transmission. It's an energetic resonance kind of experience. It's too easy to get into interpreting what I think you meant. And then it gets into a conversation. Oh, no, that's not exactly what I meant. I meant this. And this is more kind of a bare attention. It's hard to explain, because I thought that myself. I thought, well, you always have to, and I always often encourage couples to make sure the message says, message received, and that kind of thing.

[32:53]

But this is a whole different kind of way of, when you practice it over time, it's a way of just appreciating somebody else's context. And how perfectly accurate it is is not quite as important as the clothing space I think one one thing is, you know, if if if we our energy is not synced up and we get into kind of spiky energy or snappy or something, if we do the cushion talk, it's not like we say, oh, we have to fix being snappy. So. When you have a problem here in the community, it's not that you talk about that problem. You talk about what's up for me. What in what state am I now?

[33:53]

And you don't have to explain it to the other person. You just say, I feel that way. You might not talk about the problem at all. Because there is something by. It's really hard to talk about, I realize by just sharing what's so in you and the other person being willing to share what's so in them, you go way beyond the problem. The problem is maybe because what's so in me and what's so in them, when we meet, we kind of don't meet or we don't see each other or. But if you go below, you're right there. It's the other person. And when I share, I discover something because when I can when I share, I'm anxious. Then I am freed from my management techniques that I apply when I'm anxious to hide my anxiousness or to diminish my anxiousness or to run away from it, distract myself from it.

[35:04]

If I just say I'm anxious, I don't have to do any of that. No, I don't. It doesn't. It doesn't matter. I understood something and it trees me from trying to manage my situation in terms of so that because what we get from each other is our managements of our inner states. That we are upset that we are upset or angry that. We are not the way we want to be or that we didn't have a good sauce. And this morning we were all distracted. So we are all judgmental. And then we we have our way of how we are when we are judgmental. But if I say I'm totally self-critical, I don't have to do anything about it. It's it's very freeing. And that is what happens in that conversation. And she doesn't say I heard you say you're self-critical. Is that true? Because I heard it. So I know that she heard it.

[36:07]

Because I'm not I'm not talking to her. I'm just opening the window. And the interesting thing is I open the window to myself at the same time. Yes. I think sometimes people understand the practice of prayer. as beseeching or asking God or somebody for something to get something. But actually, how I understand prayer is opening a window to yourself. Yes. So maybe that's another way for that. Yeah. That's a nice way to think about it. Thanks. Yes. So you said at the start of the talk that you wanted to talk about living in community. And I understand the technique that you're talking about for living with one other person in an intimate relationship.

[37:11]

Are you suggesting that this is a technique that we could use when we encounter difficulties with other people in the community? Yes. That's pretty radical, Christina. Yes. Salsam is pretty radical. Thank you very much. I think it will be useful to try and experiment. We just reveal our inner self to the person. Yes. Because I said at the very beginning, the person we have difficulties, us, what we see out there is myself.

[38:12]

That's why it's so freeing, because you open the window to yourself. You step out from being your internalized mother or father or whatever, you know, overcritical inner voice. You're just stating what is so right now and it's can be different the next moment. Just right now. It's very good to invite the other person. There's a looping, there's a dipping. So there's actually two parts. The dipping is very much similar to what you're describing. And in the mediation process, they talk about how the dipping tends to change the situation. The moment somebody dips and describes what's their inner landscape or what they're experiencing, there's a connection that goes deep, that's made, and that helps to align and sync up, as we talked about.

[39:26]

And the second thing is, in this idea of community experiment, having done this Christian talk for a while, I know, and I was going to say, that it does take practice. And so if people are interested in doing it, we encourage them to go into it with that kind of mind that not to expect maybe the first time, that it's just going to go. But they went to it with the idea that we're going to try this. Yes, that is a very good point. Thank you very much to bring that up, because it was amazing in the class. You know, from the sixth to the seventh class, there was a big shift in what the couples that came and practiced it. First, there was a resistance to do it. You have to make time. You don't want to do it. Sometimes Marcia said, I think we should do a cushion talk. And I go, no, no, you know, and I sit down or she goes, oh, really, you know, so it's not it's not just, you know, it's not like we're going with flying sails in there often.

[40:47]

But so and it does. By doing it more, you learn more. And if you try it, you can also call me and I can help you. You know, not in the middle of it, but if you run into difficulties, I'm happy to talk with you about it. I'm here every Thursday. So, you know, so there are definite rules to it, you know. And Tim can tell you too. He's been doing it for more than a year, almost two years, right? Yeah. Yes. Oh, OK. Good. Oh, sorry. Yes. I'm not sure I understand exactly. But how do we keep this process from becoming just this kind of exercise? If you say what is just so right now without trying to control, fix, manipulate anything, you cannot support your ego.

[42:09]

You're welcome. Okay. Time's up. And love says, I will, I will take care of you to everything near.

[42:29]

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