This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening, everyone. It is lovely to see you all. Welcome to everybody who's online, joining us from all parts of the world. USA and everywhere else. As you can all tell, I'm a foreigner, so I'm always there particularly. Oh, my goodness. My glasses are misting up, which is not what you want at this time. It's close to my heart that we now are able to invite people from all parts of the world to share in the spirit of Zen practice. Thank you very much to the Tanto. Again, kiaoko Tim Wicks for inviting me to give this talk. And Lucy as well. Thank you, Lucy. It's lovely to see you as leaders of the current practice period.

[01:02]

So I'm very grateful. And to the Abbot David Zimmerman, thank you so much for taking care of our temples. And to my teacher, a Ryushin, Paul Heller, who for all I know might be watching. He's currently over in Belfast leading a series of sessions in a practice period over there. So if we have any Europeans, know that he is often over in Europe. So today I'm going to share with you my personal struggles around injustice and suffering and how I, as a Buddhist, try to reconcile the Buddhist path of peace with how we can accept what is unacceptable. Or perhaps I can rephrase that. Sometimes I find something so absolutely unacceptable and I say, but I'm expected to accept this, but if I accept this, is that me saying that I find it acceptable? And I've always struggled with this particular, what seems like a conflict within my Buddhist practice.

[02:12]

But first, I'm going to talk a little bit about cats. Now, for those of you who know me now, I'm very, very into cats. And I promise this has something to do with exactly what I'm going to talk about. But I'm going to walk you through a path that I went on with three feral cats who lived in the park across the street and who I managed to convince to adopt me. We saw them about six or seven years ago now, and a beautiful white cat. And... She wouldn't let anybody within 20 feet of her. She was known in the neighborhood and wouldn't let anybody get anywhere near her. And I was new to the neighborhood, but I knew I desperately wanted a cat. And I knew that if I got a cat from the SBCA, it would probably have the daylights beaten out of it by the fierce feral cat living in the park. I decided that the only way was to get Cracker to adopt me, to get a little kitty to adopt me. So I spent a long time, quite a few months actually, putting food outside for her in the morning and in the evening at the same time every day.

[03:20]

And then I would go and while she was eating, I would talk to her from 20 feet away. I would constantly just talk and then slowly, slowly, I would get a little bit closer. And over months, eventually she allowed me to feed her out of my hand and then she adopted me and moved in and brought her kittens. She had two kittens as well. And so they all moved in, which is no mean feat because we live on the second floor. So she had to climb up a 14 foot ladder in order to get into our house. But she was a very brave kitty and that's what she did. And so this is part of what I want, I'm sharing with you my deep feeling for cats so that you have a better understanding of how how much I struggled with what happened recently. I have worked for a lady for a long time, about seven or eight years now, who I'm very, very fond of, Jennifer. And I would be pretty much working at her house maybe three times a week, and she had a lovely kitty that she had adopted from the SVCA.

[04:23]

So this kitty had actually had a rough start in life. We'll call her Fluffy. All the names have been changed for the purposes of the story. LAUGHTER And I developed quite a bond with Fluffy. I would go there regularly, and I developed quite a bond with her. But then she was getting older, and for a little while, she started pooping outside of her litter tray. And Jennifer said to me, I don't know what to do. This is not OK. And so she did a lot. She spent a lot of money, behavioral. and vet tests and blood tests and all sorts of things, but it basically came down to cognitive decline because Fluffy was getting old. And so I got a text message from Jennifer saying, well, I wanted you to be the first to know that I really can't manage this. I'm not prepared to live with a cat who poops outside the literature, and so I will be giving her back to the SPCA. And she was an older cat, and I was so upset by this, what seemed like a betrayal of the cat.

[05:33]

And it made me so upset because I felt, well, who is this person? How can I be friends with somebody who could treat another being like that? Somebody who had offered a home to that now you are discarding. So I thought maybe if I could just like find acceptance with it. then I would find it somehow acceptable. But I couldn't, and I didn't, and I was furious. So I would like you to think for the purposes of this Dharma talk of something that you find or have found in your life absolutely unacceptable. It's a deep practice. And for a long time, I interpreted a Buddhist practice as a kind of passivity. I would flinch when I heard teachers talking about accepting the world as it is. You know, it is what it is, bad stuff happens. We can witness it, we can take care of it, but you know, bad stuff happens.

[06:38]

And I internally would always struggle with this. I felt like I'd been told that I was being told to tolerate what was wrong, to swallow mistreatment or pretend that harmful behavior was okay. And just because I would then accept something, did that mean that I found it acceptable? And the answer was no. So I've been struggling with this for my whole practice. I started practicing when I was quite young, in my late teens, and I was born and raised in apartheid South Africa. And for those of you who are unfamiliar, for the younger amongst you, that was South Africa for the best part of 60 years had legalized, systematic, bigoted racism of the worst order in the country. And it was part of the country. And so I grew up in that and that sort of thing. I really struggled with seeing that kind of injustice. And how to reconcile taking appropriate action in the face of that kind of injustice.

[07:45]

Sir James Goldsmith has a wonderful quote. He says, tolerance is a tremendous virtue, but it is a very close neighbor of apathy and weakness. So I'm still figuring it out. And I wanted to take the opportunity during this Dharma talk to share with you what I have learned. So the first thing to do when you're struggling with something, certainly in my life, is to go to friends. And I'm very lucky that I live close by and I lived in this temple for many years. And so the first thing I did was go to my close friends who happened to be Buddhist practitioners. I contacted the Tanto and I was like, I need to have a practice discussion because something has happened and I'm very angry about it and I can't accept it and I feel like it's unacceptable and I don't know what to do with this. And the Tanto said, what is it to accept reality? It's reality is going to reality. You could choose not to accept it, it's still reality, it's doing what it's doing.

[08:48]

And I was like, Yeah, well, you know. And so I sat with that. I then contacted my friend Shundo, who some of you might know, he often gives talks here, wonderful Buddhist teacher. And he said, the important thing to mention when you're speaking is skillful means. It is very important that you learn how to feel into your own heart and have the skillful means to embrace the suffering that you're inevitably feeling. and to suffer, understand your suffering is not only yours, and you can embrace the suffering of the whole world. This is the nature of our lives, and it's important to learn how to do that and skillfully respond to your own suffering. And then I had a look to see what the Buddha said, and the Buddha doesn't really use the English term accept quite so often, but the Buddha did speak about accepting reality as it is, impermanence,

[09:52]

our suffering in the present moment, without resistance and without delusion. So what I was taking from this was that acceptance was about embracing suffering, and I thought it was kind of a close bedfellow to patience, because a good definition I heard of patience was the ability to stay with suffering. So it seems that somehow it's about embracing suffering, and that acceptance was closer to honesty. than it was, or than it is to endorsement. So I'm not necessarily endorsing something, but I'm honestly taking a look at it. I'm honestly acknowledging what is. Reality is going to reality. But then there are the next steps. The next step is to, the first step is to hold it and accept it, honestly acknowledge what is. And then you hold it with mindfulness and compassion. what we might call the investigative or integrating part of how we respond to this, what we find so unacceptable.

[10:57]

And the third part is respond wisely, ethical action or wise action. I even looked to the AA moniker. I have many friends who are And I learned that at the end of every meeting, they say, Lord, grant me the wisdom to accept what I cannot change. No, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the wisdom to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Courage to change the things. You can tell I'm not in AA, sorry. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And really, I think that first part should be simply, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things. Because we can't change reality. Reality is doing what it's doing. And this does not mean we approve of harmful actions or become passive in the face of injustice. Instead, we meet it with a mindful acknowledgement and the willingness to see reality exactly as it is right now without resistance and without adding anything extra.

[12:05]

any extra suffering. And the extra part is key. I was noticing that when I was so angry at Jennifer, I wanted to lash out. I wanted to respond. She was like, hey, how are you? I was like, I'm fine. Not like your kitty who's stuck in a metal cage. I was ready to lash out. I was upset and I was angry. And the key here is not to add anything extra. Because seeing the truth of things, seeing the nature of reality, doesn't liberate us from its suffering. It transforms the nature of the suffering, but it doesn't liberate us from the suffering. The Buddhist vow, the Bodhisattva vow, to hear the cries of the world in compassion means to suffer with what is going on, but we don't need to add anything extra. And then there's also acceptance versus approval. So acceptance is objective contact with the truth. You see, this person acted harmfully.

[13:07]

It's just an objective, you see, that's how it is, and you accept it. Versus approval, which is like saying, well, this is okay, this is good, this is okay. And our practice does not require us to approve of things that we find objectively harmful, abuse or violence or disrespect. So it meant that I had to face, once again, the deep truth of Buddha's first noble truth. There is suffering. Sometimes it's translated as there is dissatisfaction or life is suffering. I think life is suffering is a bit dramatic. But there is suffering. And to be with that suffering, to embrace that suffering, it asks a lot of us to not resist it, to not deny it. So the first step is to then admit that the situation is here. And then the second step is, do I endorse it? It's kind of like getting shot with two arrows.

[14:09]

The first arrow is something harmful has happened. Boom. The second arrow is resistance, anger, and denial. And I definitely felt that second arrow. But our practice is to not necessarily let anger. that second arrow hit. But acceptance does not preclude action. Mindful action, upright action, and appropriate response. So we act wisely, we respond skillfully. But you cannot respond skillfully if you're angry or if you're in denial or if you're resisting. And by accepting reality as it is, it can sometimes give you, it can give you the clarity you need to fix what needs to be fixed or to set the boundaries that need to be set. Acceptance is not passive and it's often, it can be the starting point for ethical action.

[15:11]

Now, I felt in my own experience, especially in South Africa, that The anger that I felt in response to something that I saw as unjust was actually fuel for action. It helped me go out there and rage against what was going on in South Africa. But it's much better to have clean fuel that's not polluted by anger, that's not polluted by resistance or denial. So if your three stages are accept or hold what's going on, followed by investigation and integration, followed by ethical action or wise action, well, let's look at the first one. How do we hold unacceptable pain or injustice without getting overwhelmed? Buddha speaks about a broad river mind. So we can take a chunk of salt and we put it into a small glass. It will make that glass of water undrinkable.

[16:15]

it pollutes it. But if we can throw that salt into a broad flowing river, a broad river, it doesn't really affect the river at all. And that's the analogy for us developing Zen mind or big mind so that we are not overwhelmed, that we're able to hear the cries of the world and deal with the suffering that's brought on by the injustices we see without getting overwhelmed. Another technique is to investigate dependent co-arising. Now, we could talk for a long time. Dependent co-arising is a very big subject. I'm just going to briefly touch on it here, but we could talk about it for a long time. But we can synthesize it into say dependent co-arising is I am me because you are you. Everything affects everything, and everything is continuously changing moment to moment and affects everything else that is continuously changing moment to moment.

[17:16]

And so this can take, when we understand that, it can take the personal sting out of an event when we see that it's actually the logical outcome of countless previous, present, and future conditions. And another thing to do is maybe a abide with the suffering instead of resigning to it. In a sense, this means to sit with the pain of what's going on as it's shifting, as it's changing, as it's expressing itself, rather than meeting some kind of final acceptance or resigning oneself to some kind of final resolution, which is not really in alignment with the dynamic nature of being anyway. So sitting zazen helps with this, being with things as they are instead of how I want them to be. We can use practices like mindfulness of breathing, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with, coming into the body, just being with the body, feeling the breath.

[18:21]

Also the practice of a loving kindness that is called metta as well. It's not strictly a Zen practice. It tends to be more formally practiced by the Vipassana group. Very valuable practice. And what the practice of metta or loving kindness is, is that during meditation, or really at any time, you generate feelings of loving kindness that you extend both to yourself and to the object of your ire, culture, people, person, group, whatever it might be. And you can generate this feeling inside of yourself. Another thing to do is noting this is how it is right now. which is actually a reflection and a contemplation of impermanence. On the one hand, you're looking, well, this is how it is. This is reality. The very important part of that is right now. Might not be like this later. Things shift and things change. Doing these practices can help build capacity within us to help learning how to embrace suffering.

[19:25]

Also, some core teachings like equanimity, This is a mental balance, calmness and stability, a kind of unshakable disposition in the face of life's ups and downs. Also non-resistance, which is self-explanatory. Just understand things are happening and injustices are happening. All sorts of things are happening. And that's what is it to not resist, to experience it, let it flow over you. And like I mentioned before, again, the core teaching of impermanence. This can all be very helpful. Now in the stage of investigating and integrating what we're seeing in the suffering, we can look to some great teachers like animals. I invite you to think of a horse in the rain. Now we envisage this horse. Is that horse standing in the rain thinking about how it really doesn't want to be in the rain right now?

[20:26]

And looking out at other horses who are in the barn and thinking those lucky horses are covered and I'm in the rain and I wish I wasn't and life is unfair. Or maybe doing some positive thinking so that it doesn't have to face the reality of being in the rain, you know, frowning and being grumpy. Well, the answer is clearly no. not like us as human beings, you know. It made me so much think of my kitty before she moved in with us. I was out feeding her and it was just kind of before she moved in. She had let me get close to her, but I still wasn't allowed to touch her. And at the back of the garden where we live, there's a fence between us and there's a recovery house behind us. And at the top of this fence pole, now if I stood up and I reached right up, I still couldn't quite touch her. But on top of this fence pole, in the pouring rain, she was sitting there. She's a white kitty. She was very dirty because she was homeless.

[21:29]

And she was just sitting there with the beautiful authority of queen. You know what cats are like, you know? But the same as that horse would have been, just in the rain. This is what's happening right now. No resistance. No wanting it to be different, just quietly sitting there in the rain. And this is something that we can practice. I think about myself, sometimes I'll be walking outside and it'll start raining and what's my automatic instinct is to cover my head and start running and then be grumpy about it. It's like, ah, it started raining, I don't have my umbrella, I don't have my coat or whatever it might be. We get annoyed and we respond. And sometimes because of running like that, adding these extra notions, I might end up slipping, I might end up falling. So what is it to just walk in the rain? I encourage you all as a practice opportunity, the next time you find yourselves outside and it starts raining, don't run, don't dash, don't cover.

[22:32]

Just say, ah, okay, it's raining. Let me see if I can just be with this right now. It's a good practice. The first time I saw it, and it was so inspirational, it really makes me think of how teachers so often teach by modeling as opposed to with their words. Some of the greatest teachings I've received, both from animal teachers and from Zen teachers, is from them modeling. And I was living in Venice in Italy at the time. I had an art studio there. And I was great friends with a Tai Chi master. His name was Maestro Franco Mescola. He has sadly since passed. He was an older gentleman. And he came to visit me in the studio and in true Italian style. He was very tall and he was wearing all white linen because Italians love a bit of white linen in the summer. And he came in and we had a lovely visit. We had a nice cup of tea. And as he started leaving, it started pouring with rain. And I was like, Maestro Meskola, you know, why don't you stay?

[23:35]

It's just started raining. And he was like, it's good. And he kept walking and his pace just didn't shift at all. He stepped out into the rain and he just kept walking in that very slow way. And he didn't cover his head and he didn't cower down. And it was such a great teaching of the gracefulness. in the face of what would have been resistance for a lot of us, certainly for me. So we're moving to the next step of investigating and integrating. I find myself thinking, why do these bad things happen? Apartheid, all the misery that caused human beings, people who do mean things to animals. It's just like, why does this sort of stuff happen? We want things to be fair, but we only really see a part of the picture. We have misunderstanding. You know, I don't know why Jennifer can't keep her cat.

[24:37]

It seems terribly unjust to me what happened. But I was told the story of a man who went to his wife and he was like... honey, I see you busy making lunch. Do you need anything? And she was like, oh, yes, please. I need you to go down to the market. I need you to pick up some tomatoes and some cucumbers and various bits and bobs down at the market. So he was like, okay. And he went off on his mission to go and get a bunch of groceries. But he gets down to the market and there's this man there who he hadn't seen before who just starts shouting at him and he's berating him and he's insulting him and he's mocking everything that he's buying and he's being really mean and he's like raging. at this guy just trying to buy his vegetables. And this guy was like, geez, he gets back home after managing to, you know, do his shopping. And he says to his wife, it's like, bloody hell, I get down there. I'm just trying to do my shopping. And this guy was just like shouting at me and carrying on. It was just awful. And she just laughed and she said, oh yeah, no, you know, everybody knows him.

[25:39]

He's just crazy. Don't pay him any heed. You know, don't worry about him. He does that to everyone. And this guy realized that he automatically softened he was like oh okay so it wasn't a personal thing oh okay you know there's reasons why he's behaving like that he's got psychological fragility whatever it might be he's i didn't know i didn't understand why he was being like that and so he he softened and so to be with the suffering embrace the suffering and i look at jennifer and i don't know why she was like that with her cat. Maybe it's because she's a much older lady. Maybe she's facing her own cognitive decline. She can't face it. Maybe she's facing her own death and it's just too much for her. I don't know. And so I think it's important to remember that sometimes we don't know what's going on.

[26:42]

We don't have the whole picture. And I was so angry at Jennifer, and anger generates more anger, and anyone who's been in an argument knows this. And skillful means asks me to investigate and to integrate all of those feelings. To find the reasons behind, when I find the reasons behind the injustice, or even if I would just embrace the notion that I don't know necessarily what's going on, it can really help, it's really helped me to soften. I even got this teaching from my father when I heard this Buddhist teaching. It reminded me of a teaching that I got from my father when I was very young. I must have been like 12 or something. And there was this one teacher at school who was just mean. And I was saying to my dad how mean this teacher was and how awful he was. And my dad was like, oh yeah, I had a teacher like that when I was at school. And then I found out.

[27:44]

that he actually had, he was by himself and he had a wife at home who was in the late stages of multiple sclerosis and he was having to take care of her all by himself. And he had a very, very hard life. And that's why, probably why he was so mean, because he was just really struggling. And it was the same teaching. It's like, we don't know what's going on for other people. That's kind of arrogance on my part to think, I see an injustice and I understand what's going on and it's wrong. I mean, in a certain sense, there's no such thing as injustice. There's cause and there's effect. It's really as simple as that. There's cause and there's effect. So it's important to make sure that the causes we put in place now do not generate more suffering. Every cause has its effect. Every effect is a cause of a new effect, and so on and so forth. And we have, I would go so far as to say, the responsibility to pay attention to the energy, what we're putting out there, and to not cause more suffering through our own ignorance.

[28:57]

Our final step here is wise action or ethical. Through skillful responses, we can create the conditions for change. We can't necessarily change things here and now, right now, but we can take actions that will create the conditions for further change. And our response is always personal. Somebody went to a Zen master and was like, what is the secret of Zen? And he responded, an appropriate response. And so it depends on you, it depends who you are, when the situation finds you, how you can respond. When we are asked to make soup and we only have scant ingredients, we make the best soup we can with the ingredients that we've got. And this is what's asked of us always, just always to do our best, always to make our very best effort, always to try and not generate further suffering.

[30:02]

We can look to great people like Nelson Mandela, like Martin Luther King. Think of somebody you think of as a great person and think of their courage. You know, the Zen way of sitting, quietly facing a wall, whether we are doing it for one day, we have one day sits in this temple, or whether we are doing it for seven days, doing a seven day sesshin, that is not the way of cowards. That is a way, that takes great, great courage, facing your difficulties, not shying away from them, sitting with the struggles of being alive without resistance, not resisting it, facing it head on, embracing the suffering of what it is to be a human being and to find its gifts. Somebody once said, courage is the price that life exacts for peace. Courage is the price life exacts for peace. I think this is a very powerful statement.

[31:09]

In this instance, I think of a wonderful man, Nelson Mandela. I was referencing apartheid. Well, apartheid. there was a man who, a black man, who was the head of the kind of resistance movement in South Africa, and the resistance movement was known as the African National Congress or the ANC. And he resisted very strongly and he had the members resisting very strongly using violent methods because of the enormous injustice that was going on in South Africa against people of color. And one of the things that stuck out for me when I read his book, The Long Walk to Freedom, is that he said that he was very clear that nobody was ever to get killed. He said with all the bombing and everything that went off, they were very careful that nobody would ever get killed. And so when he was brought to the Rivonia trial in the 50s and put in prison, they couldn't give him the death penalty, and they wanted to.

[32:20]

But South Africa couldn't give him the death penalty because he had never killed anyone. And so after spending 27 years in prison, Nelson Mandela was released and he became the president of South Africa and led his people to freedom. Because that man engaged in ethical action and wise action in the face of enormous injustice. He had great, great wisdom. Revenge has no part in Buddhist practice, but still we have to do something. We have to say something, but not out of anger or hurt. This is a powerful way of being. If your life, your job, your wife, your husband or partner or boss treats you unfairly, you can see the big picture. And it's always a wonderful opportunity.

[33:23]

It's an opportunity to learn and to practice. When we look at acceptance, we can practice mindfulness of breath. We can practice a compassion, broad river mind. And we can practice loving kindness towards all beings. We can follow this by skillful means. Embrace the suffering. Be like a cat in the rain. See the craziness in the world. Understand with humility that we don't understand everything that's going on. And then ethical action. So I leave you with the question of what it is to accept that which you find unacceptable. The Buddha offered us tools to mitigate the suffering of the world by embracing that same suffering. It's a powerful tool in the face of injustice. May each of us have the courage to face what is to meet the unacceptable with great kindness.

[34:29]

May we do it not just for ourselves, but for every being who is struggling tonight. And may that quiet, fierce acceptance ripple outward until the whole world knows the taste of being fully received as it is. May all beings be at ease. Thank you. It's, I don't know, it's 20 past. I mean, I'm happy for everyone to go to bed early. Oh, hello. I think, do you have a microphone coming? Thank you for your talk, Kim. Thank you, Emily. I was wondering how things are with you and Jennifer now. I have cut down my hours of working with her.

[35:41]

There were aspects of the job that required me to really confront areas where the cat used to sleep and where it used to be, and I've said I will no longer do those because it breaks my heart. I haven't had as much courage as I would like to have because I made other excuses as to why I wouldn't do it. I need more courage. But I'm really trying so hard to navigate it with kindness. and really try to bring in all the teachings that I try and learn. It's very difficult. Sometimes this practice asks a lot of us, and to face injustice, I struggle with it. I'm a little bit on the spectrum, and so justice and injustice is a very clear thing for me, and for me to work with maybe it not being quite so clear is a big, deep practice. Thank you. I'm glad you're taking care of yourself. Taking care of all the kiddies. Thank you for your talk.

[37:00]

My name is Asha. I'm just curious about the most recent comment you made, which is that you're a little bit on the spectrum and justice and injustice is very clear to you. Do you mind like expanding on maybe the first part of that now that applies to the second and then perhaps other things as well? I have more recently discovered that my mental predispositions are slightly on the autism spectrum. And there's some qualities about that that really come to the fore in Buddhist practice. And that is one of them. I tend to see things very clearly in black and white and, um, don't see quite so much gray in situations, which can really be a strength and can also be a weakness because I don't necessarily see nuance and I can sometimes be a little bit direct. So it can be very, very helpful, but Buddha teaches us not always so. Buddha teaches us don't be so sure. Buddha teaches us I don't know. I'm not very good at I don't know. I'm very much often wrong, never in doubt.

[38:02]

Yeah, I know. I know how things are. And that's not so helpful. And it's not accurate because I really don't. And so it's a great practice in humility when I want to rest in some kind of certainty about how things are and about how I'm right and you're wrong and this is right and that is wrong. And it's like, not so fast. Let's just be a little bit in the dynamic, shifting, changing nature of the world. where maybe right and wrong are a little bit mental constructs, you know? So, is that helpful? How are we doing for Tan? Maybe, yeah, I don't know. Is somebody keeping an eye? Hi, nice to see you. Yes, likewise. Thank you so much for your talk. It was very timely for me. I experienced a lot of discomfort and had to really remind myself of not always so. Today I got really angry because I have a six-year-old son and his grandparents, my parents, came to visit and he was being what I perceived as really rude and disrespectful to them and it was just like I was dying a thousand deaths and there was just nothing I could really do except it was like I was trying not to make the situation worse but it was just like

[39:24]

really hard for me. I was really sitting in a lot of discomfort. My parents were just, you know, being very allowing and they were just happy to see him. And yeah, so the practice is very fruitful with the six-year-old. But thank you for the encouragement and the reminder. Yeah, you're so welcome. It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job because what I heard you say a number of times is that you were very uncomfortable. And sometimes that's just what asked of us is to be with the discomfort and to embrace it and be like, okay. Because if we can expand ourselves to not just our own discomfort, but understand the cries of the world, which is the Bodhisattva vow, it's a deep practice, you know, and hold it with compassion and kindness. Yeah, you're doing a great job. You're welcome. Maybe this can be the last question. I wonder if you have spoken with Jennifer about her process and her reasoning and if you're maybe sensing yourself that you're not ready to do that do you plan to like is the curiosity of

[40:38]

who she is in this situation and what that represented and is to her? It's a great question. At the very beginning, I did. But I was fueled by anger and rage. And she responded with obviously very defensive and upset. And we were both in tears. And I was, how can you just discard a member of your family? And she was like, I can't do it. I can't do it. It was awful. So the courageous and optimistic me says, yes, I would like to speak to her about it in the future. I hope I'll have the courage to. I think it would be the right thing to do. I'm getting there. She offers me cookies every time I go around and I'm still like, no, thank you. But I think I will eventually soften and I'll take one of her cookies and maybe say, would you like a cup of tea and can we talk? Thank you. Thank you so much.

[41:39]

Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[42:04]

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