is a teacher in the Vajrayana Tantra tradition, and King Abbot's Bunko Abbey, which is a monastery for both men and women's practice in Nova Scotia. Thank you for your attention. Thank you. Because this is a time on Earth when there's not a so-called obstacle,

[01:13]

and because this is a time when no communities are experiencing obstacles, and because this is a time when many individuals at personal level are experiencing obstacles, I thought tonight I'd talk about obstacles. I'm going to talk about obstacles, and just in general. You remember the story of when the Buddha was sitting under a tree, and it was the night when he was just about to attain enlightenment,

[02:19]

and he was visited by the daughter of Mara, which is to say that he was attacked. The story goes that swords and arrows were plummeting, and they turned into flowers. And my understanding of the story has always been that obstacles are not really our enemies, but rather we are our friends, and that they are the way that the world and our entire experience teaches where we stop.

[03:25]

So that what may appear to be an arrow or a sword to someone else may actually be experienced as flowers to ourselves. And then in fact whether we experience what happens to us as an obstacle or an enemy, or whether we experience it as a teacher and a friend, depends entirely on our perception of reality, and in fact depends entirely on our relationship with ourselves. Perhaps nothing ever really attacks us, except our own confusion. Perhaps there really is no obstacle that exists anywhere,

[04:36]

except our own sense of the need to protect ourselves from being touched. Perhaps the only enemy or sense of enemy is when we don't like the way that reality is now, and therefore we wish that it would go away fast. But I think as practitioners what we find is nothing ever goes away until it's taught us what we need to know. And if we run a hundred miles an hour to the other end of the continent in order to get away with it,

[05:40]

get away from it, usually we find the very same problem waiting for us. Then it just comes back again and again in many names and forms and manifestations until we've learned whatever it is that it has to teach us about where we still are separating ourselves from reality, pulling back instead of bulking up, closing down instead of allowing ourselves to experience all feelings, all situations, all people, fully and completely without any hesitation or without ever retreating into ourselves. They say that obstacles, so-called obstacles, occur at the outer level and the inner level.

[06:48]

The outer level is the sense that something or somebody has harmed us or is about to harm us or has interfered with the harmony or peace that we thought we had achieved. Some rascal has ruined it all again. And this sense of obstacle occurs in relationships, it occurs at every single level, people get disappointed and harmed and confused and are feeling attacked and all kinds of plagues, and they always have from the beginning of time. But from the point of view of the way before, one has to question whether this attack or this obstacle is our enemy or is it our friend.

[08:02]

Does one get resentful or does one become furious? Does one become angry and harsh or does one become sobbing and vulnerable? What happens when we are attacked? What happens when we are attacked? I remember one time choking Trump out of shame, sitting in a gallery of senior students giving a talk and he suddenly stopped and he just said, What do you do when you get screwed? What do you do when things are unbearable? What do you do? We were all sat there, wondering and thinking, and then he started calling on us one by one. The people were so scared, and they answered very generously. And almost everyone said, I think this is pulling us all apart.

[09:12]

Then we forgot practice altogether and became totally spiritual. And when we all were finished with our confessions, he said, well thank you very much. That will help a lot of people. And he cared more for our genuine response than that we pretended that we were lying to him that we really were. And needless to say, after that, we noticed very clearly what we did when we felt attacked or betrayed or confused or when we found situations unbearable or unacceptable. We began to really notice what we did. Did we close down or did we close in? Did we get resentful and bitter or did we stop? Did we become wiser or did we become more submissive? Did we know more about what it is to be human as a result of our pain or did we know less?

[10:17]

Were we more critical of our world or more generous? What did we do when we were attacked by the daughters-in-law? What did it mean that the alms turned to flowers? What does that mean? There's a traditional teaching on the daughters-in-law. The teaching is actually on overcoming the four norms. And it describes the nature of obstacles, the nature of how human beings from the beginning of time have become confused and lost their confidence in their basic wisdom mind. The first law is called deva-putra and it has to do with seeking pleasure.

[11:26]

The second one is called sangha-law. It has to do with how we always recreate ourselves, try to get some ground back, try to be who we are, be me again. The third one is called klesha-law. It has to do with how we use our emotions to keep ourselves done and asleep. The fourth one is called yama-law. It has to do with the fear of death. These four laws are all the same thing in some way, but in the four descriptions of these four daughters-in-law, four ways in which we, just like the Buddha, are seemingly attacked.

[12:32]

Deva-putra-law. Seeking pleasure. When we feel embarrassed, when we feel awkward, when pain once again presents itself to us in any form whatsoever, we run for places to try to become comfortable. We do this tragically human thing of we seek pleasure in tragical, delayed pain. Obstacles, real obstacles. Klesha-law has the power to completely pull the one down,

[13:37]

completely pop the bubble of reality that has become so secure and certain. And when that happens, one of the things that happens is we seek pleasure. We can't stand to feel pain. We can't stand to feel that edginess, that anxiety, that cringes in the stomach, that heat rising from anger, that bitter taste of resentment, and therefore we grasp for something pleasant. I suppose deva-putra-law could be said to be a description of how we all are addicted to avoiding pain, and we reach out for maybe something quite destructive,

[14:40]

or again and again drinking ourselves into oblivion, or again and again taking drugs in the form of oblivion, or maybe we just chew gum, or maybe we just turn on the radio, or maybe we even use meditation to try to escape from the more awful, unpleasant, and penetrating aspects of being alive. Someone has just thrown an arrow or raised a sword, and we don't allow it to change into a flower. We just run and try to escape through all kinds of methods, and in this world there's no endless, endless, endless ways of seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.

[15:45]

But actually, this is not really, even though seeking pleasure is not really considered an obstacle, but rather something that you can observe and look at and see what all things mean. It's something that instead of becoming critical of the fact that we want, critical of the fact that we can't stand the feeling of losing it all sometimes, critical of the fact that we don't like to have any bubbles popped, instead of being critical, we could realize that we could begin to open our hearts to the human dilemma that we discovered in ourselves, and that causes so much misery in this world. So the way that this sword, this Devaputra arrow, turns into a flower

[16:56]

is by opening our hearts and looking at how we run, how we escape, how weak we are by looking at that with the most gentleness and clarity, and therefore what seems to be ugly is discovered as actually the source of wisdom and the way that we can reconnect with our basic wisdom, mind. When we talk about Ganda, this is just a description of when the rug is pulled out and we feel that feeling of having lost everything that's good, or everything that meant something to us. When we have the feeling of having been thrown out of the nest, and we're sailing in space and we don't know what's going to happen.

[17:57]

What we do is we re-create ourselves. Lucia used to call it nostalgia for some thought. We've been given this great opportunity, actually we're in no man's land. We had it all together and things were working very nicely and suddenly the atomic bomb dropped and it's all blown into an oasis and we don't know what's going to happen or even where we are. So we re-create ourselves with a vengeance. We want to get something back, some true anger or resentment or fear or bewilderment. We re-create ourselves as if we were Michelangelo carving ourselves out of marble with a solid, immovable personality. It's calmly warm, it all falls apart,

[19:08]

but we don't have the trust in our basic wisdom, mind to let it stay like that. And we re-create ourselves with a vengeance. Again, this is not really considered an obstacle or a problem. This is definitely a power or a source, but the way that it turns into a flower is by seeing what we do again and again and again. So that instead of being a tragedy or a melodrama, it becomes more like a situation comedy. And when you pick up a joke book in the bookstore, you see yourself on every page. You know, all the humor in the world that we all laugh so hard at,

[20:10]

whether it's in a movie or a cartoon book or wherever it might be, is all based on our human imperfections. And when we see it in a cartoon or a movie, we laugh very hard because we see ourselves there. So the fact that we re-create ourselves with vengeance, maybe we could think of it as Blanca, but just when we're about to be on the verge of maybe really understanding something, really opening or heart-opening, seeing clearly, we put on a brown shawl mask, a mask, we have fluffy eyebrows, a big nose, and we refuse to laugh. And we refuse to let go. And it's the hurt. And we don't know why. And we refuse to feel inquisitive about what has just happened and what will happen next. And we refuse to maintain that line of simply not knowing, and perhaps we will never feel that way again.

[21:12]

And if it isn't that, Klesha, Laura, Bonaventure, perhaps you've noticed when you're sitting that a simple feeling will arise in your heart or in your stomach, a simple, harmless, queasy feeling. And you panic. You panic. And the thought begins, and the storyline begins, and emotions come. And instead of just sitting, there's some kind of openness with this queasy, uncomfortable feeling in your stomach. And you bring out the bellows,

[22:14]

and you start panning and panning with your thoughts, with your emotions. You keep it inflamed, you keep it very, very high. You won't let it go. When the rug is pulled out, when everything falls apart, when there's no certainty, when there's disappointment, when there's shock, when there's embarrassment, that's the same as saying a mind which is clear, undying, and fresh. But we don't feel that way. Instead, we just feel the queasiness and the uncertainty of being in nowhere in the world. And we get out the bellows,

[23:15]

and we keep it inflamed, until we have a marching down the street with banners yelling and screaming about how bad everything is. And knocking on every door, getting people to sign petitions. And there's a whole army of people who agree with us about how everything is wrong. So what started out as actually this enormous, open space that turns into a forest fire. A world war. A volcano erupting. Not a lake. We use our emotions. We use them. In their eminence, they are simply part of the goodness of being alive. But we use them to get ground back. To try to deny that really

[24:17]

no one ever has or ever will know what's happening. So we use our emotions to try to make it all pure, independable, and real again. We use our emotions to fool ourselves about what's really true. But again, this is not considered an arms-on-blood-arm. It is the wildness of life that we can look at and see it. We're not only beginning to befriend ourselves,

[25:17]

and soften towards ourselves, but we're beginning to befriend all of humanity, all human beings, all at once. By seeing how we do this silly thing again and again, how we don't want to stay in the uncertainty and awkwardness and painfulness of not knowing, of finding ourselves falling apart, and falling apart, and falling apart, when we see that, we begin to develop true compassion for ourselves and for all of us, because we see what happens and what we do. And that's how we center ourselves. The cat turns into a flower, and how what is seen as ugly, and problematic, and unwanted, actually becomes a teacher.

[26:23]

Looking at the values of truth, looking at how we react to them, we can always return to the basic wisdom we have. This is how we open our hearts. This is how we awaken our intelligence and our heart, and connect with the fundamental Buddha nature. It's not by trying to get rid of anything, not by buying into the foolish expense of being a cat, but by beginning to see how we close down when we're schooled. Nama-sara, the fear of death. I think maybe all the words can be summed up as the fear of death. Usually when we talk about life,

[27:27]

from the usual samsaric point of view, we mean finally getting it together, finally a feeling that we're a good person, finally feeling that we're alive, worthwhile, that we have a good quality, and that we're harmonious, and peaceful, and we don't get thrown off balance for hours of yoga, and we're the only person that knows how to turn an hour into a flower. We feel so good about ourselves, and we feel that finally, in spite of all these ends, we are happy we have gotten it together. And we think that that's life. I think sometimes,

[28:30]

from the view of someone who's awake, that's death. Speaking of security, speaking of the fact that you feel concerned and cold, speaking of the fact that you feel self-contained and comfortable, some kind of death, doesn't have any pressure yet, there's no room for something coming in and interrupting all of that. It's setting yourself up for failure. Because sooner or later, if the first number is true, your house is going to burn down, some of your love is going to die, you're going to find out you have cancer, a brick is going to fall out of the sky and hit you on the head,

[29:38]

someone is going to spill tomato juice all over your yellow suit, you're going to arrive at Greenwich and find out that no one orders produce, and you have 700 people coming for lunch. The essence of life is that it's challenging, and sometimes it is so sweet, and sometimes it is so bitter, and sometimes your body tempts you, and sometimes your body relaxes and opens, and sometimes you get a headache, and sometimes you feel completely, 100% selfless. From a relationship perspective, death is always trying to tie up all loose ends and bind them together.

[30:48]

It's something deliberately aggressive at that point in your life, trying to iron out all the ruffle pockets, trying to be perfect, trying to have no imperfections. Remember Suzuki Roshi taught about the four kinds of horses? Always trying to be the best horse, and thinking that if you just meditated enough, or jogged enough, or did something right, you could be the best horse. You know, usually that picture is interpreted as that you should be the best horse. Suzuki Roshi, thought differently, and I actually was the worst horse and the best horse. So life, what is life? Life is to be really alive,

[31:52]

to be really fully alive and fully human, to be completely aware of beauty, and to be thrown out of the water, again and again and again. Always, always be thrown out of the water of life, experiencing each moment to hurt you and rush you, being ready to die again and again and again. The awakened horse is, that's life. And death is when you can hold on, and have it all turn out, in a way that concerns you, and congratulates you, and makes you feel completely together. So, the Yama-Mara is fear of death,

[32:55]

but actually it's fear of life, fear of love, when actually, there's no way to live, there's no way to be completely awake and alive, without realizing that you've died. The end of every after, moment after moment after moment, you die again and again and again. And that's life, that's the end of controlling life, that's what it is. So, it's called fear of death, but really it's fear of life, fear of living, fear of living without seeking pleasure and wanting pain, fear of living without continually recreating ourselves, when we fall apart, when we die. Fear of

[33:56]

just letting ourselves feel our emotions, as hot energy or cold energy, or vibrating energy or smooth energy, instead having to use our emotions to keep ourselves together, when we die. So, these four mora, these doors of mora, what are they removing from us? From everything that's good enough? Or will they serve as the final teaching? Would we have ever attained enlightenment without them? If they had not come, would we have had full wisdom and knowledge? One day his best friend didn't they find him, show him

[34:59]

what was true and give him life? So, I think maybe all of us can start to look at what we do, when life attacks us, and realize that the attack is a teacher, the response is a teaching, and actually there's no way to get into our heart in order to know what is true. Well, perhaps people would like to ask questions, or express their

[36:01]

doubts about what I've said. I'm glad that was enough for us. Anything. Anyone want to throw at me? Put me on the tree as I am. Yes. Is desire insatiable? Is desire insatiable? Is desire insatiable? I think so. I think so. What is that word? Insatiable. Desires are endless. They're endless. If you keep trying to fulfill them. If you think that taking the approach of the Sabha Putra will not give you pleasure,

[37:02]

fulfilling your desires, if you think that that seems logical enough, that means that you, if you just aim enough, then you will finally be full, but instead what happens is you get fat, and then you lose your wants. So that makes sense. You would think that if you could just blot out pain and all kinds of things that start with pain, then you'd be free of pain, but you'd be happy, but then you're addicted to something. So it's like what they call samsara, the vicious circle, so desire is insatiable in that sense. So the approach is that you begin to know the nature of desire, not as an enemy, but as something that beings experience. You want to be friends with desire. Not criticizing it, saying it's life in itself, but actually become curious,

[38:05]

and take an interest, and come to know the nature of desire so fully and completely that that seeming obstacle becomes your teacher. In my experience, the subject is desire, which ends in investigation, creation, attachment, and so on. So you feel lost, you're not as a human. Yes, I think that is what happens. When you start being curious about the say, just maybe the feeling in your heart, or in that sense of wanting to reach for something, that pull, and you start becoming curious and wondering about what it is and why it's happening. I think I should say that this kind of curiosity that I'm talking about gives that curiosity that doesn't expect to find anything else.

[39:08]

It's like endless curiosity, insatiable curiosity. So, you need to discover all the basic stuff. You discover the stuff that seems to be really discoverable. You find what's true. So you can talk about things being illusion, you can talk about egoism, and you have to find out these things for yourself. And the way to find it out is by beginning to be curious just about the life that you are living, and the emotions that you feel, and the body that you have, and the mind that you have, and the modern body that you have, and the domestic situation that you have, and your birth, and your middleborn of a man, and you have light skin, and you're still a baby,

[40:10]

and you begin to take interest in all of that. And as we always start looking closely, and looking, and looking, and looking so closely, and then we begin to find the kind of things that could work that way. So we have to do it with that. Our culture kind of ancient, and we have tremendous gentleness, and we have tremendous clarity, a clear feeling. And you'll discover all those things you read about in books, and through all the words in community, you discover them for yourself. And you don't find it somewhere else, you find it in your own kind of rousing situation. I wonder if trying to be open and trying to be curious can become the same problem as trying to be perfect.

[41:11]

Yes. In fact, as students we often continue to fall into the same trap, you know, of having ideas that we keep trying to measure up to. So any thoughts you hear, even for those most enlightened people, you tend to use it as a way to measure yourself and an ideal that you want to achieve. But really, if you sit, and if you sit with a sense of open questioning, and then if you bring that whole attitude of sitting into your everyday life, and you begin to not regard your catastrophes and hardships and pains as interfering with this ideal that you're trying to set up, but it's actually the very brain that you're trying to achieve that ideal, then the whole notion of ideal

[42:14]

starts falling apart. Because, you know, when you start to live with true fear, such as the experience of being an enlightened person, when you start living with that, you'll find that life is very humble and also very quiet. But if you really are wholeheartedly about one thing, about one truth, you'll come to a very very enlightened state. Because you want to be perfect, and you just keep seeing your imperfect perfection, and yet you can't there's no way to get away from that. There's no exit. There's nowhere to run. So you sit in what you see, and you feel what you feel, and from that you begin to connect with your fear,

[43:15]

your awe, your fear. Which is also because you're all alone, you're protecting yourself so undoubtedly, that you never relax enough or start fighting to be whole. Right? Right. So I think it's stupid for someone to be opening and that becomes like a way that we condemn ourselves. Because we find it awful. But all these things that I say in the teachings, when you really feel like that, no one else can really tell you what it means to be free, letting go, opening, being alive,

[44:18]

not shaking. We have no idea what any of that means until we start to be, to be friends with ourselves. Sometimes I think the role in general of students is that we continually set ourselves up to be knocked off our pedestal. And maybe that's the description of the spiritual journey, that today we're being knocked off our pedestal. And we get a propaganda and clients and propaganda and we get knocked off the pedestal. It goes on like that until finally, finally, we have that propaganda and we're being knocked off the pedestal. We're being knocked off the pedestal. We're being knocked off the pedestal. Thoughts.

[45:32]

And thoughts are usually self-justification or blaming others. But in any case, you don't just let it be for you alone. You get out the bellows and you just keep the whole thing. It's almost like if it looks like it's going to cool off, you just throw more caffeine on it. Keep the blaze going. And as practitioners, we've seen how we do that. And the instructions, no matter what practice we do, must somehow always come back to the precious of the present moment. But nevertheless, the energy and the power of feeling is still there. For instance, if we've just been betrayed, if we've just been insulted, if we've just had tremendous loss of feelings, something really... Another reason is to say

[46:33]

that the when really strong emotion comes up, all the doctrines and beliefs that we hold is kind of pitiful by comparison. Because the emotion is so much more powerful. And I think what I'm saying is you can really sink with just the energy and there's no need to really proliferate with blame and self-justification and proliferation of words that keep the emotions waiting and fluttering. And there's substance that you can just sit with the energy and like anything it happens intensely and then it passes. But we don't let it pass with caffeine and no magic and people have been going because when you feel lost, feeling like you're lost, you prefer

[47:35]

you prefer that kind of feeling of being alive. You prefer allowing yourself to be pushed forward and get closer. That's what I think. Closure of mind. Closure of mind. And as I say, it's not really a problem to do that because we need to see that we do that in order to understand the truth of suffering, the cause of suffering, the possibility of cessation of suffering, the path. We need to see what human beings go through and we can follow along by by framing and then we can discover the form of the truth as if we had never been spoken before. Great revelation.

[48:39]

You discover it yourself. Sometimes good and sometimes bad. In the early morning, try to make a video of yourself. You don't have to think very much. You do. Well, I remember in my time, in the first place, that I lost everything. Well, now I don't know you. Maybe you are. What do you need? What do you need? No one is making you get up at five o'clock in the morning and make that choice yourself. You have to find out what do you need.

[49:42]

I think since you made the choice to get up at five o'clock in the morning, you should try it for at least two years before you change your mind. There's lots of different paths. That's why there's always different religions and there's also non-religions. And basically it doesn't belong to anybody. But each of us has some kind of path. And sometimes it's always been waiting for us. And when we connect with it, we feel we're living the life that we need to live. Because it feels like it's going forward. And we have all the same creatures and scandals and pleasures and everything in us. Pain and pleasure and all of that. But there's that sense of feeling that you're alive. Because you're living the life

[50:45]

that you need to live. It's life. So you have to find out for yourself. But it's good to stick with it for a long time to learn how to connect with it. And maybe the best, the meditative description of the Vedic culture is what missionaries call spiritual realism. You decide you want to delve in. So you can look below. But as soon as something really starts getting to you, it really does start falling apart a little bit. You feel like the hour mark has broken. You don't let go of ashram. So then you go to the new ashram and you're there for a while. And then as soon as it really starts getting into the core of you decide to delve into it. And then it just keeps going like that. So basically you never really fall apart. You just keep

[51:46]

doing your job and keep yourself together. Buddhism doesn't tell you what's false or what's true. Buddhism doesn't encourage you to find out what's wrong. I have a lot of curiosity about all of the material that's being conveyed about about the what's being called an unprecedented involvement of some kind of hierarchy of a non-physical and divine consciousness. I'm just wondering if you care to talk about that or say something about that.

[52:47]

Is that a reality? I kind of feel like I have enough work to do inside myself and with my own issues and energies that I don't really need to be concerned about those things. I think they're fine without my focus and attention right now. Nonetheless I think it's a really interesting topic. I think the basic issue is we have to grow up and we have to leave behind our mother and leave behind our father. But human beings don't really want to do that. Just at the moment of crisis that comes in, we don't say, Mom! We wish them some handful. We wish them

[53:47]

someone to someone to take a role in opening an open refrigerator and eat what you want. Some kind of comforting thing that you want. I think basically we have to give up the notion of baby food and we want whether you're Buddhist or whether you're Christian or Muslim or Jewish or whatever you are that if you get into thinking that this earth is inferior and the nature of humans are inferior and they're really what, if we do everything right, maybe a big flying saucer will come down and take us away from all of this. If we're kind of

[54:48]

buying into that logic of I want to get out of here basically we'll never discover our all-encompassing reality. So I think in terms of what you're saying you have to be careful of whether it's just another Dhammaputra escapism of wanting everything to be pleasant and trying to avoid giving it up. The whole texture of being a human is trying to run away trying to run away is never the answer to being a full human. So I'm suspicious about a lot of this stuff. Promises and that sense of transcending that and that kind of thing.

[55:50]

But I think fundamentally what I see is one has to just always look at one's own motivation of why one does everything. And if it's to try to escape or run away or hide from the immediacy of your experience then that's like comparing death to life. I think that answer is completely wrong. But it's still I still wonder I still wonder if that really exists. What do you think you know?

[57:06]

I just wanted to talk a little bit about the relationship Well, you know anyway we talk about obstacles because we're in such a strange place and So, you know, I don't know the situation in detail but let's just have a look at my situation. My primary teacher said her grandpa died and then his grandchildren died. And not only that there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding the whole situation. So my feeling is that for me the lesson of this time

[58:43]

has to be learned. I think that this lesson was addressing my fundamental reason where I unknown to myself still depended on someone else to confirm me. And rather than this being a statement that we should we don't need teachers because I and Chris have a very strong connection with teachers. I feel like it's a legacy of our teachers to have left us with such a remorse and that it's part of our maturing process and we

[59:45]

begin to ask all these very fundamental questions but have you noticed it's very hard to come up with answers and when we do I think it's only out of panic. Because we seem to be in a time where Buddhism is being transmitted to the West and in order for it to be done properly it seems like we have to go through the stage of being weaned from our misunderstanding about the teacher-student relationship because it was never meant to be a dependent relationship. It was never meant to be a dependent relationship but rather one that continually drove us out of it. The reason my understanding, which perhaps is why you don't understand it as I think it is the basic understanding is that we work with the teacher because this is someone that we feel in their presence shows us our own inner mind.

[60:45]

But basically the only way to really stabilize that experience of continually being awake is for us to die in any sense of belief or self-delusion or fact like anything is dependable or anything is lasting or anything can that anybody can show us what is true. Our teachers are models of people who basically made their way in the journey and became so softened and genuine and true and devoted their whole life to trying to get up here and it seems that they somehow the message of Buddhism comes away because they have to die immediately from that and go to one place to really begin to understand

[61:47]

what they were trying to teach us and I don't know what happens next but I'm willing to wait forever to find out because I don't think anything's going to happen next until we as Buddhists in the West have learned this lesson I don't think anything's going to happen next that has the healthy way of the devotion to the truth of it. I don't think anything's going to happen next until we learn what it's supposed to look like I don't even know what that is but it's certainly challenging to understand what these very wise people are trying to get to I'm curious if I'm actually left as a Buddhist now anything else? well I think

[62:53]

analyzing and trying to figure out how to come up with an answer instead of what I'm talking about is just an open question so more it's just a way of speaking, it's a word on the screen and it really is continually seeing things as if they're personal and it takes a lot of bravery to do that because it means being unprotected which perhaps is the experiential definition of evil we are ours and you you do do you live live Where are you? you

[63:45]

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