which is a way of growing up cash fast in Tokyo. Boys have to put out work on the dollar. And then they recirculate the cash money back to the country counties because they don't have much cash there. And, as I say, they publish for a period of about a year, which is called the tribe. And they are known in Japan as the buzoku, the tribe. In Japanese, buzoku means tribe. And I should also add, as a matter of cultural history, it's no accident that when they split off from the barb, they called the new newspaper the tribe, the Red Mountain tribe, because they had that group in... They knew all about that group and they knew about that newspaper. That was part of the influence of calling it the tribe. So, those communes are running pretty well now. One of the poets involved in it named Nagasawa,

[01:03]

he calls himself Naga, just came back from a year knocking around in India. And since he came back from India and is able to take care of things a little bit, and then now came to America in July, and he's been here in America since July. Backpacking in the high sierras. And now he's down in the southwest where he spent, I think, two weeks living with Taos, with the Indians that took him in. So, this is a funny, and to me, delightful set of cultural conditions and circumstances working. And he'll be going back next July. He'll stay here one year. What he came to America for, he said, was not to see America big, but to see what a big desert was like. And to see what a good solid continental mountain range from the Jurassic was.

[02:11]

Because they don't have any ranges like that. They wanted to see some really good granite. They don't have that kind of rock. And he said, he wanted to see the desert, about 4,000 years ago. He accorded them accorded them a cordial party, a cordial party with scrupulous, scrupulous attentions. Not only the gorgeous,

[03:15]

gorgeous accommodation. His considerate and thoughtful attention penetrated every inch of his attention, his hospitality. Hospitality. Then the two kings appreciated for them, for him, so much. Because his hospitality was really complete. So they thought, we had to give something as a present, as a reward to him. A reward to him. At any cost.

[04:17]

Then they talked over with each other what we should give him. As a reward. Then they had, they had some good ideas. They said, well we had, we had seven holes. Seven holes in our body. Seven holes. Seven holes. We had the seven holes in our body from which we can get a taste of pleasure. By seeing with our eyes, with our eyes, we are taking delight in seeing something.

[05:27]

With our mouth, we can get a taste of food. There is food with ears or nose. Something like that. Anyway, we have, they thought, we have seven holes in our body. But unfortunately, this Kunton, the king Kunton, didn't have seven holes. So they were very sorry for him. So at any cost, they wanted, they tried to, they tried to make a hole to his body, seven holes. That's a great, they thought that is, that is great reward for him. Then day after day, they tried to, they tried to make a hole one by one. A day. You know, the moment when they finished

[06:35]

making a hole, this Kunton, the king Kunton, passed away. This is whole story. This is whole story. The moment they gave, they finished giving the, giving the, giving the rewards, great rewards, great present to him, he passed away. Very sorry. You know, this Kunton means chaos. This is chaos. Kunton means chaos. Shuku and Kotsu means, means rapidness, rapidly, rapid, speedy, speediness, or speediness. So they, they are very quick.

[07:38]

They are very quick to, to have, to do some reaction, to do, to have some reaction, for, to, toward anything, anything, anything what they would do, they want to do. They are very quick, they were very quick to carry out anything, anything what they want. But this Kunton, this Kunton, this Kunton, he was very, you know, the limitless, limitless expanse for his characters. Because they, he didn't have, he didn't have seven holes. The atmosphere, the surface, surface of his body is very,

[08:39]

completely smooth. No, no holes. No holes. It means he is completely, his character is completely elusive, elusive. And nobody, nobody can, nobody can, could, couldn't, nobody could take measure of his foot. Though, then, that they thought, they thought, what is, what is his pleasure? What is his pleasure? Because he had, he had no holes. No holes from where that he, he could, he could get taste of pleasure, human pleasure. So they thought they were very sorry, very sorry for him and tried to make a hole. One by one,

[09:40]

day after day. After finishing making a hole, he passed away. Yesterday, yesterday someone said that, that this, this story was completely opposite to the Christian story, Christianity story. God make, there is first, first of all, there is chaos. The existence of chaos. Then God make a day, a night, for seven days. In the seven days, from the chaos. From chaos. But this story is completely opposite to that story. Day and night, day and night,

[10:41]

and human being, apes and atoms, try to make a hole to the contour, chaos. At that time, contour is not already contour, chaos. This is very interesting story. You should, you should contemplate what it means. This is something like a koan. You know, when I was at the monastery, at the monastery, there was, there was one of, one of teachers, instructors, instructors,

[11:44]

named, named reference, Suzuki, not that Suzuki, different person. He was, he was, his character was very elusive. Very elusive. Nobody can, nobody can enter, and nobody can read his character, what he, what he is thinking. Just to keep silence, keeping silence, he all, all he had to do was to follow the day routine, the principle routine of life. But the answer, his, the way of chanting sutra

[12:45]

is characteristic of just coming out voice. Maka, Hanya, Hara, Mita, Shingyo, like this. Very, his, his method of chanting sutra is very remarkable. The funny, funny way of chanting sutra. And also, and also, his, his motion is very slow. He do, he did anything, he did anything in slow, in slow. Whatever, when he, he walk on passage, he walked very slowly. Then the monks, the monks gave, they gave the nickname to him,

[13:47]

Zen-Ka, Zen-Ka. You know, in the stories, in the Zen stories, you will find the same stories. One of layman, lay woman, one of lay woman, woman, had her babies and asked the Zen master to give, to give some, some message, some message, some Buddhistic message for, to, to, to this, to this, to, to my, to her babies as a, as a commemoration, as a commemoration of his birth. At that time, I didn't,

[14:53]

I didn't remember exactly, but, I didn't remember exactly what he said. Anyway, the... He said something like this, you know, you know, a man, a day, male scowl, male scowl, male scowl has, you know, something secret point, you know. What would you say in English?

[15:53]

I don't know. The secret point, you know, the male, male, male scowl. Ah, ah. It is pretty good, it is pretty good to have male scowl, male scowl with a secret point. And then she, she had some doubt. Why is it this message is a very good, a very good statement for, for, for baby's birth as a commemoration of his birth. He said cows is pretty good, you know, because cows is always walking slow, walking very slow. Never, even though,

[16:54]

even though a man may hit, may hit the cow's hip with a, with a stick, he didn't, he didn't gallop. He doesn't gallop. He walks slowly, still. Cow is completely different from the horse. If you hit the, if you hit the horse's hip with a stick, suddenly the horse gallops, happens to gallop. But cows is very slow, slowly walking, day after day. It's pretty difficult to understand, understand what cows is thinking, because his cow's character is very elusive, elusive. So, so he gave, he gave a message to, to her babies.

[17:57]

It is pretty good, the male cows with a secret point. Anyway, the monks gave, gave a nickname to this instructor's cow. And she, they, they all day, all day looked, looked down upon this instructor's. Because whatever he did, whatever he might do, he carried out, he carried out anything in slow, in slow, not quickly. But, you know, they, one day we had the, we had the very big shock of an earthquake. And right after, right after we had the, the particular sources, in Zazen Hall,

[19:00]

and all monks, all monks, including this instructor's and the Zen master named Reverend Hashimoto Roshi's. The moment when they all step out, step out Zazen Hall, we had the big shock. Suddenly we had, we experienced the very big shock of an earthquake. That time all monks rushed into, rushed into the outside from the Zazen Hall without leaving anything, everything, you know, everything behind them. Because inside of the Zazen Hall, you know, candle, candle is burning, candle is burning,

[20:02]

the incense is burning. If the building, if the building shook to that, you know, break down, break down, I think it would be, it would be fire. And Zen master also, they rushed into the, rushed into the outside, ran away quickly. But this car, this car, this car didn't go, ran away, didn't run away. The moment, the moment when the, the big, we had the, we had the big shock of an earthquake, he turned around, he turned around, going into the inside of the Zazen Hall and put off the candle and burning incense,

[21:04]

incense stick, incense pot. And then he ran out. Oh, that's very good. Everybody was surprised. Then from this, from since, from since, all monks look, all monks didn't look, look down upon him because he's, he's very, he's a great person, like a Zen master. But at that time, Zen masters can escape from the Zazen Hall rapidly and he laughed. Ah, ha, ha. Oh, that's a big earthquake. Ah, ha, ha. Like that. So Kuntun, chaos is not chaos. Chaos is very big world.

[22:04]

So if, if you meet, if you meet, if you should meet a person whose character is elusive, elusive, don't look at, look down upon him. He's a very good person, maybe. But the unfortunate human being is always look at, look at something from their own viewpoint. In other words, from the viewpoint of seven holes, seven holes. Now someone has one hole, someone has two holes, someone has three holes, someone has seven holes, or more than seven holes. I think so. Maybe I have, I have more than seven holes. More than one hundred and eighty holes. In Buddhism,

[23:07]

all of you, not only me, all of you, have one hundred and eight holes. Then we, we look, we try to look at everything from the viewpoint of one hundred and eighty holes. And then we are very sorry, we think we are very sorry for you, for you who has, who has no holes, who has no holes. But someone has one hole, two holes, three holes, five holes. That's okay. But we want to, our curiosity, our curiosity will try to, will try to make a hole to, for, for others.

[24:09]

But the, as long as there are many people exist, there exist many people here now. I exist, what I exist means what you exist, all of you exist. Now what you exist in this hole implies, signifies various different types of characters. Characters who has, who has one hole, two holes, three holes, four holes. Seven holes, more than seven holes. More than one hundred and eight holes. But the, the first important point is not to make a hole, to make a hole, to, to make a hole

[25:16]

towards his body, towards his body. The first important point is how to live in a harmony, harmonious way, harmonious way of life. How to live in a harmonious way, even though you have no holes, even though you have no holes. The first important point we have to understand, the person who has no holes. But usually, usually the first flow we take it into our head that we have to try to make a hole. The other one, the other day I, I read, I read the books for, using, using for the, my son's school books. And this book,

[26:19]

in this book says how to make friends, how to make friends, how to make friends. If you go, if you go a strange place, if you go, go to a certain place where there is, there is no friends of your own, how to make a friend. And then, this book says several, you know, several ways of making friends. Ah, this book ah, tells the children several methods of making a friend. And then, the, the children read this book and they, they will, they will make a choice of

[27:20]

what, what, what it is, what it is be good enough to, to make a, make a friend. And then, you know, the son, strictly speaking, there is, there is nothing, there is nothing to measure and to make a friend. There is no particular, particular method of making a friend, strictly speaking. If you don't have, if you don't have a friend, ah, you know, let's imagine I came, I have come here right now. All of you are strange. I have, I am not intimate with all of you. Then at that time,

[28:21]

I read, I read, I read some book like a children's school and make, I learned the method, method how to make a friend. But it is pretty easy apparently. But the first important point is this. Now how I understand all of you with whom, with whom I am not intimate. And you, you have the first important point, you have to try to make every effort to understand me, understand me as a stranger, as a stranger. Then try to, when you, the moment when you try to answer,

[29:23]

try to say something, hello, that's enough. The moment when you say, hello Katagiri, hello Dick, hello Mike, the moment when you say, hello, at that time there exists completely the method of how to make friends. It's not logical, it's not logical. You cannot understand you. I cannot say, I cannot say hello. So this is very simple, very simple way of making a friend. But in order to say hello, we have to understand the others first, before before before some technical method of making friend

[30:24]

is given to you. I think if a certain method is given to you, it is pretty easy, it seems to be easy to make a friend. Try to try to give some candy to some friend. You're a very good friend, they thought. I don't know where, I don't know how he understands you or not, even though you gave some candy to others. Regardless of whether you gave some candy or not, the first important thing is you have to understand others. You understand me. You try to understand me. This is first important. This effort is important.

[31:25]

But always we are looking at something, something from the viewpoint of seven holes, one hole, two holes, three holes, and five holes. And then before they try to make every effort to understand others, we try to first make a hole as a reward, as a present. The moment when you give, when you give some hole to him, he is not already him, his, he. Because chaos, chaos is not already chaos when you, when you gave a hole. Let's imagine I have one hole, I have one hundred and eight holes.

[32:29]

You look at, you look at me from the viewpoint of one hundred and ten holes. You think, oh, Rev. Katagiri is so poor guy. He has, he has just one hundred and eight holes. I have one hundred and ten. So I want to give one more, one more holes. Then you try to make a hole like this. At that time, Rev. Katagiri is now Rev. Katagiri. When you make a hole, even the one, even the one, don't you think so? I can't escape from Rev. Katagiri. Escape from the Rev. Katagiri who has, who has one hundred and eighty holes. But you try to make a hole, you try to give

[33:31]

one more hole to me. At that time, Rev. Katagiri is now Rev. Katagiri. So I have to die like a kid. I think in order to understand the wisdom, we never, we never look at

[34:33]

something from the viewpoint of the holes, some holes. Even though no holes, even though from the viewpoint of no holes, no holes. Holes means, holes implies our ignorance, ignorance. Okay. Dogen Zenji

[35:41]

explained how to learn the wisdom, how to learn the wisdom which occurs in Dream Monkey. One day, all the disciples, all the disciples, disciples gather together and listen. Listen to a sermon when the master said, the followers of Buddhism shouldn't hold fast, fast to their own view, views. Even if they have formed an idea on some subject, they say they may, they may well fear that something is surely the matter with it or that there is

[36:43]

some better view. They should, they should ask a good number of masters concerning the subject and inquire into the sayings of our forefathers. But you shouldn't give too much importance to them since you may well fear to be mistaken. Taking special care of confirming your conviction, you should give in to any better view. Once upon a time, Hui Chang a national teacher who lived in Nanyang had a visit from a priest attending on the

[37:44]

emperor. He asked the priest, What color is the grass in the southern part of the country? It is yellow. He asked the same question of his own page and received the same answer. Then he faced the attendant priest and said, Your view doesn't excel that of your page. You said the grass is yellow and he said he made the same answer. Both are of the same view. Then even this page can teach the emperor the real color. Your observation is not beyond

[38:45]

the ordinary. Afterwards someone said, Why is the attendant priest to blame for making an ordinary answer? He made the same answer concerning the real color of the grass as did the page. He is nothing but a good teacher, and he didn't recognize the words of the national teacher. We can tell by this story that we need not follow the sayings of the ancient but should know only the true doctrine. It is but not only to entertain doubts but also to hold fast to an incredible principle and not make

[39:45]

necessary inquiries. I think this priest would come to see the den masters and discuss about some aspects of den politics with his own pride. This den master already knew so well about him, what he was thinking, and what he doing. Then someone asked, why is the attendant priest to blame for making an ordinary answer? He said the same answer concerning the real color of the

[40:46]

glass as did the page. He is nothing but a good teacher, and he didn't recognize the words of the national teacher. We can't tell by this story that we need not follow the sayings of the ancient, but should know only the true doctrine. It is not only to entertain doubts, but also to hold fast to an incredible principle, and not make necessary inquiries. So, when you confirm your convictions toward your ideas, you have to consider about it again and again. With considerate

[41:48]

and thoughtful attention, you should never hold fast to your ideas, even of the principle of the ancients. If you find a better preach, a better principle than the previous one, should follow the better place, the better way, better condition to living. The other day someone asked me, the Kathagiri sensei, how do you think about the beginning? If you want to go, you should go. And the

[42:48]

other day he asked me about the Soro school. The Soro school is too much gentle. I think if you compare with Soro and Rinzai, having certain ideas, Rinzai is strict, Soro is gentle, you never understand, you never understand as it is. Rinzai itself, Rinzai itself doesn't have a certain method of study. It doesn't certain methods of Rinzai teachings. What is called strictness? Dogen's preaching ideas doesn't have certain

[43:50]

ideas of what is called gentleness. Who creates gentleness, who creates the idea forms the idea of gentleness or strictness? There is nothing but yourself who creates, who forms the idea of what is called strictness and gentleness. Before you decide, before you form an idea on a certain

[44:50]

subject, Rinzai is strict, Soro is strict. You try to settle yourself on the self. Within the world of yourself who exists on the stage of now and here. So if you

[45:50]

if you stick to something, whatever it is, pleasure or something, if you stick to something like a limpid, you cannot understand yourself, you cannot understand something as it is. For instance, if you should become mad, crazy, and not be aware of yourself, I am crazy, I am mad, you never think, you never think of yourself, I am mad, I am crazy. You said always, I am right person, I am not mad, I am not crazy. In this case, from this point, crazy and yourself is

[47:09]

very same, completely same, no space between the mad and you. Then the master said always, when you excite, when you excite excessively, you cannot understand how you excite, how you excite, how much you excite in your brain, you never understand yourself, how much you excite yourself. So then master said always, the moment when he get up early morning, he said, he asked to himself, good morning, about you, good morning, how are you? He said, yes, pretty

[48:09]

nice, don't cheat yourself, yes sir. Every day, day after day, he said, good morning, good morning master, how are you today, how are you this morning? And to say what you say, you ask to yourself, how are you? Is to say what you nudge, nudge yourself with the elbow, hey, how are you? The moment when you say, how are you to yourself, to said to yourself, how are you? You know, there is some space, some space between you and the other you, the other you. Who is,

[49:10]

who is, I have to, have to, have to create excitement easily. Then this, the Zen master says, always ask to himself, how are you? Good morning. This is pretty good. So, in my case, I used to grow up. I grown up, I grown up in, in my family, in my family, in my parents. I

[50:12]

was grown up by my parents, who was, who were very enthusiastic to believe in Zen schools, chanting Amitabha's name. So, I used to listen to the voice of chanting the name of Amitabha. So, this voice has never been detached from myself. Even now, even I am Zen priest, I can always listen to my parents' voice. This voice is pretty good, you know, very, very mysterious voice. By fortune, all people are impressed so much.

[51:20]

Then, in my case, when I, when I excite, when I excite, when I, when I make excitement too excessive, you know, I will, I will chant the name of Amitabha. I will chant the name of Buddha. I will chant the name of Bodhisattva. Avalokiteshvara. At that time, least, during the period when, during the period of chanting the name of Buddha, the name of Buddha, look at me, look at me. And never, at that time, at least, the I who have, who make, who makes, who make excitement excessively, never, never look

[52:22]

at myself. At least during the period of chanting the sutra, the Buddha, look at me, Buddha, watch myself, watch myself, before making excitement. This is the real truth, know. Uh, uh, so whatever happens, whatever kind of, uh, difficulties, uh, there are, there are happening around your life, around your life. Uh, the important point is, you should never, you should never get, uh, you should never stick, stick to it, stick to them, uh, like, uh,

[53:23]

the the Oka Sutton, uh, who, who was very outstanding Zen masters, uh, Oka Sutton, the Zen master was very strict person. Uh, um, the he had, uh, he had, uh, uh, pockmarked, many pockmarks, pockmarked, uh, pockmark, pockmarks, you know, all over, all over his face, you know, and then also, and then also his eyes, his eyes was enshrined

[54:24]

in the back of the brain, his brain, like this. Then he always looked at, looked at sharply, sharply at the person, you know. He very sharply, sharply looked at the person, all over his grasp, like this. Uh, most of the monks shrunk, you know, uh, shrunk beneath, uh, his withering glance, uh, withering glance of his grasp, as if the mouth covered before the cat. But there were, there were some, some monks, and there were some individuals who perhaps who are, who are very

[55:24]

brave. So this, uh, that monk, that monk, tried to come to, come to see him and ask something, some aspect of Buddhism, uh, with bravery, with brave. And he knocked the door and this, uh, Sutton Roshi said, yes, me. And this monk said, I have a matter of great, uh, great importance. And that Zen Master Roshi said, what? And this monk repeated again, the matter of a great,

[56:24]

great importance. Zen Master Roshi said, whose is it? Whose is it? Uh, that time he thought, he thought, if, if I should, if I should, uh, if I should, uh, if I should tell, if I should tell him, if I should tell him, uh, it's, it's others, it's others' serious affairs, not mine. He would, he would scold me, don't worry about others' serious affairs. So, he didn't, he didn't say in that way. The moment when the Zen Master asked him, whose is it? He

[57:27]

said, it's mine. And Roshi said, what? Yours? And then said, uh, one of, one of the only yours serious affairs. that time, one of his disciples, one of his disciples named Sawaki Roshi, looked at, looked at this Sotan Roshi's attitude. Uh, and he said, he said, one of, one of only your, only your serious affairs, one of only your serious affairs. I don't care. Only your

[58:27]

serious affairs make no difference to me. What's important? What's important? And then he, he laughed. His face, his face is very strong, like if dead, you know, evil face, evil, you know, devil, devil, very strong, very hard, hard faced. And at that time, Sawaki Roshi thought, uh, you know, uh, uh, gargoyles, gargoyles, gargoyles, that the, in Japan, you will find, uh, the two, two, uh,

[59:27]

main, big, uh, tiles, uh, tiles on the ridge, on the ridge of the, the, no, the end of the, the end of the ridge of the roof, tile has a devil face, devil face like this, you know. So Sawaki Roshi thought, uh, thought, that, uh, that devil face smiled, devil face smiled. Uh, that's why, most of, most of monks shrank, you know. Most of, uh, most of, uh, uh, monks are very scared, you know, very scared of his smiles. Uh,

[60:28]

and this monk, this monk ran away, ran away out of, out of his room without saying anything at all. Then when the Sawaki Roshi, Sawaki Roshi got old, older, uh, uh, he thought always he called the, this, his message, his message, uh, saying, what of under your serious fears, and called him. Uh, every time, every time when you, uh, whenever, uh, whatever he thought, he felt, he fallen, he, he had fallen to, uh, difficulties and sorrows.

[61:32]

He always, uh, he always thinking, he always passed thinking of his message, his master's message, what of under your serious fears. If you stick to the infamous serious fears, it is now serious fear. Under you think, under you think, this is my trouble, this is your troubles. then, uh, as Dogen then says, Dogen then says, whatever kind of difficulties, uh, are happening in our daily life, uh, we try to make every effort to stick to them

[62:35]

like limpet. And try to listen better principle of Buddha's, Buddha's teaching, better, better than the Buddha's teaching, if you have, if you find. Try to listen. Uh, so, uh, briefly speaking, wisdom is to see something as it is. Wisdom is to get rid of the eagerness, which means, uh, seven holes, or 108 holes. Uh, before we criticize others, before

[63:36]

we, uh, completely become melancholic, and disappears, uh, you should find yourself, uh, to settle yourself on, uh, enter the absolute field, where the flower of your life was blue. This is the first important point. Then, uh, chaos is, you have to make every effort to see chaos as chaos is. You have to understand, first of all, others who has one hole as he is. If you have, if you have two

[64:36]

holes, three holes, first of all, you have to make every effort to understand people who has two holes and three holes, before trying to make every effort to make a hole as reverse. Uh, this is the wisdom. This effort is completely, uh, the practice of wisdom, the practice of wisdom. Then, in, uh, the Dharma Pundarika Sutra, Lotus Sutra, the, it says, no one but the Tathagata's Shariputra can impart

[65:37]

to Tathagata those laws which the Tathagata knows. And all those Shariputra are taught by the Tathagata and by him alone. No one but the, but he knows all laws, what they are, how they are, like what they are, of what characteristics and of what nature they are. No one but the Tathagata can impart to Tathagata those laws which the Tathagata knows. If you stick to the, the difficulties or pleasures wherever they are, uh, you cannot find the Buddha's. You cannot find to transfer the truth from you to you, from Buddha to Buddha. Then

[66:40]

whatever happens, you try to make every effort, what, uh, what all laws are, how all laws are, like what they are, of what characteristics and of what nature they are. This effort is important. For this, uh, we have to, uh, effort, get rid of our eagerness. through the practice of meditation and that's it. Do you have

[67:41]

a question? What is the difference between quieting your mind and seeing your own nature? Quieting? You mean the quiet mind? What is the difference between quieting your mind and seeing your own nature? Uh, you mean what's the difference between the quiet mind and the self-nature? No, um, like in zazen, sometimes, what is the difference between quieting the process of making the mind quiet and the process of seeing your own nature? Between

[68:43]

the, the nature of yourself, of your own, and the practice of zazen? No? Well, sometimes when you do zazen, you feel like you're quieting your mind, your mind is becoming quiet. And, and that's all that's happening. And I was wondering, zen says that you should look into your own nature and see yourself, and is it the same thing when your mind becomes quiet while you see yourself, or what is the difference? Oh, uh, excuse me, what, uh, quiet,

[69:43]

quiet is stillness? Okay. Mm, yes, uh, this is same, this is same. Uh, you know, the, uh, at least during the sitting meditation, you know, your mind is, your mind may be quiet, you know. At that time, you will find yourself clearly, you know, uh, more than, uh, a busy life. You know, when, uh, when you, when you look at yourself, you know, in a busy life, we are always, we always

[70:44]

have to miss what the nature, nature of your life is, what the Buddha nature is, you know. But when you, when you sit in meditation and, with, with a quietness, at least you will, you will find, you will find how awful you are, how busy your mind is. It means your mind, it means your mind is, you know, your mind shows, your mind shows, you know, the nature of, the nature of stillness, stillness. So, at least the moment, the moment when, during the

[71:46]

sitting meditation, with quietness, this quietness, quietness, you, you don't, it means you don't sit in meditation, a quietness meditation. A quietness, quietness, stillness, look at yourself. That's why you can understand yourself clearly, clearer more than a busy life. So, the tranquility is completely the same with the Buddhahood, Buddha nature. So, to settle yourself on the self, you know, at the rest of peace, resting in peace, this

[72:47]

is completely quietness, this is completely Buddha nature, you know. And, you are always disturbed yourself, the busy mind is, uh,

[73:47]

disturbed, disturbing yourself. It's kind of like echo, whatever word we can use. Yeah. How about yourself during meditation? Just, you can still, you can still listen to the echo? Oh, that's bad. There is no better way than sitting in meditation. So, I think you stick to the echoes of your voice coming from your mind, coming from your busy life, like a limpet. At least, you should, you should forget

[74:48]

that, you should get rid of the echoes. Uh, you count, count your number? Count your number? Uh, that time, don't count your number, you know, and relax. And don't pursue the echoes, don't pursue the... My question is more, if in

[75:48]

alignment, is there a preferable activity, as far as the person who's engaging does it, like some activity is better or quite aligned than other activities? Yes, I think so, people think so, and people think so when you compare zazen with daily life. Zazen is more quiet, quieter, quieter practice, know, rather than zazen. But who creates, who formed the idea of quieter or busier? This is an important point. Zazen

[76:54]

is not merely practice, zazen is the word of quiet, quiet word, tranquil, tranquility. You think that this building, the air exists, the air exists in this hole, you know. That's the human speculation, but strictly speaking, air doesn't exist in this, in this hole. It's opposite, completely opposite. This building exists in the air, you see. The human being, the human speculation, always thinks, always thinks, just this situation, only this situation. Then you said, air exists in this hole. Air doesn't exist in this hole. That's the opposite, you know. The hole

[77:55]

exists in the air, you see. Do you think so? Because air is, you know, exists all over the world. Nothing is like this. Nothing is like this. There is very interesting stories. Ongan Zen master swept, swept the garden of the temple, you know, with

[78:56]

holes hole holes. He said, you know, said, his words, in his words, he said, his words, his Ungan's attitude of sweeping the garden. His attitude of sweeping the garden was complete. Really complete. No room to escape. No room to get in something. To get in something like illusions. His attitude is very complete. Then Dōgo continued to look at his attitude.

[80:00]

And he said, this Dōgo said to the Ungan, Thank you for your trouble. Thank you for your trouble. In Japanese, Dōgo arigatō gozaimasu. You know? At that time, Dōgo didn't say, you're welcome. Didn't say, you're welcome. Dōgo said to him, Why did you say, thank you for your trouble? Why did you say, thank you for your trouble?

[80:46]

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