is the Saturday Dharma Talk with San Francisco Zen Center. Thank you very much for coming. It is my honor to introduce our speaker for the day, invited by our head of practice, Jan Willis. Jan Willis grew up in the Jim Crow South and marched with Martin Luther King Jr. Completed graduate studies at Cornell University in Columbia before studying abroad in India and Nepal, where she met Lama Tubten. She studied and taught Buddhism for 50 years. Jan is currently the professor of religion emerita at Wesleyan University and visiting professor of religion at Agnes Scott College. I will paste the link in the chat so you can see Jan's full bio on sfcc.org. We'll begin now with the sutra opening verse, which you will see in the chat. Please follow along with microphones muted. Jan will begin whenever you're ready. Unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million kalpas.

[14:13]

Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's word. Thank you, Kodo. Thank you all for being here. So I wish to thank Nancy for the invitation and Kodo for helping. How's the sound? Sound okay? Wonderful.

[15:14]

Okay. I'm so happy today to be able to begin your series I understand that Zen Center will be doing a summer program on the three turnings of the wheel. So when Nancy asked me to give this talk, I said, well, that's a kind of complicated topic. There's much to cover in that topic. So it's good that I'll be first. That way. Either I'll set a usable overview of the three turnings of the wheel of Dharma, or since I'm first, you can just put my talk aside and begin your regular program. She thought that was a good idea. So. I want to talk to you about the three turnings of the Dharma wheel.

[16:16]

The three. Dharma chakras. To say it in a nutshell, this is a scheme that was devised late in the history of Buddhism actually, some centuries after the Buddha was here. And it was devised as a way of talking about and reconciling seen to some that the Buddha had taught so many differing paths to Dharma. It became the Mayana's way of talking about the three major philosophical shifts in the Buddha's teachings. Now, first I want to begin by saying that after the Buddha passed away, there were no images of him.

[17:23]

Kodo, are you getting those slides ready? Okay. For several centuries and even until the present day in Southeast Asian Buddhism, the Buddha is represented by only footprints. We're going to see a slide of one of these. If you've traveled in Southeast Asian countries, then you've seen these footprints of the Buddha in various places. You also see a wheel, if you'll notice on the bottom, and a wheel in the center, and a wheel in between the footprints. But in Thai, in Cambodian and Laotian Buddhist countries, Sri Lanka, you'll often see the Buddha represented this way. He was here, but you can't see him. You can see the footprints, however, that he left. Okay, next slide, please.

[18:25]

Much more common is seeing the Buddha represented by the wheel, the wheel of Dharma, a Dharma chakra. Now this particular wheel that I'm showing is a wheel from Karnak. a 13th century Hindu temple in Arusha state. And I show it because it's such incredible detail, artistic detail. And also to say that the wheel was a very important symbol pre-Buddhist days. It was important for the Jains. It was important for later Hindus. As This is a Hindu temple, the temple to the sun god in Orisha, and it's a Hindu temple. But you'll see that this wheel also has eight spokes.

[19:30]

Please just look and count. Okay. Now, in most my other places, and the next slide I'm going to show, and that'll be the end of slides, I think. The next slide, please, Koda. shows what you'll likely see if you enter a Tibetan monastery. Here is the Dharma chakra and the deer, representative of the deer park, where the Buddha set in motion the wheel of Dharma for the first time. All the eight spokes you see. Now, why eight? We'll talk about that. Now, can we just stop the slides? Take a good look. Okay, very good. I want to say a bit more about Huyo. It's very powerful. I've indicated that more religions than just Buddhism use it as a potent symbol. Why? Well, it represents power in the ancient Indian world.

[20:33]

You might recall that at the Buddha's birth, it was prophesied by some of the Brahmin soothsayers that The Buddha would either become a world monarch, a chakra vartan, lord of the wheel, or he would become a Buddha. Now, his father didn't want him to become a world. I mean, his father didn't want him to become a Buddha. And the father said, well, how can I prevent him from becoming a Buddha? And they said, well, you can't let him see any suffering. If he doesn't see any suffering at all, he may grow up and become this world ruler. But the world ruler is called a Chakra Varden. Now, here's where it comes from. It comes from power and warfare. It was said that a Chakra Varden, wherever the wheels of the chariot that belonged to the world ruler,

[21:39]

touch the ground. Wherever they touch the ground, that ground became the territory of the monarch, unless you were willing to fight him for it. This was a conquering wheel. This was a powerful wheel, wielded by powerful kings. So what is the Buddha doing when he teaches his first sermon? He's actually showing a wheel that's more powerful than conquering. He's showing a wheel that can liberate. The Buddha's first discourse, often translated first sermon, showing our Christian bias and roots, Western Buddhologists, first sermon. Well, the name of that sutra is the Dharma Chakra. Pravartana Sutra. The discourse setting in motion, Pravartana, turning it, turning it on the wheel chakra of the Dharma.

[22:49]

So the Buddha's first discourse indicates that he is going to start in motion a different kind of wheel. And the implication is this wheel is more powerful, more far reaching. than the chakras of a chakra of art. So what does the Buddha talk about in that first turning of the wheel? Just about everything we know about Buddhism. spoken by Anand who recited all the Buddha's sutra. The first sutra says, after saying, thus have I heard on a certain occasion when the Buddha was in the deer park at Ishipottana in Sarnath, he said to his first five disciples, oh bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be followed by one who has entered the path.

[23:53]

What extremes? The extreme of overindulgence and sense pleasures. and the extreme of overindulgence and self-mortification. Neither of these gives liberation, gives insight, gives wisdom. And then he says, I, the Tathagata, having avoided these two extremes, have found liberation. Then next line says, the avoidance of these two extremes is the middle path. Thirdly, He gives a synonym for the middle path. And the middle path, what is that? It is none other than the eightfold path. And so I got back to wheel. The eight spokes of that wheel that's representative of the Buddhist Dharma are representative of each of the eight guidelines, ethical guidelines, really. Right action, right speech, right... concentration, right, wisdom.

[24:56]

The eightfold path is represented by each of the spokes of the Dharma wheel. So how in the world, why are we talking about all the three Dharma wheels? Well, if you look at that first sermon, everything that the Buddha subsequently taught in his 45 years of teaching can be found in that first sermon. The middle way, the middle path got refined over and over again. So that how do we, how should we view dharmas? We should view them as existing in a certain way, but not in the way that we perceive. So we don't want to bend too much to holding on and we don't want to, we don't want to over exaggerate when we see a thing and they become attached to it. We don't want to underestimate a thing And so develop hatred towards it.

[25:56]

We need to see it in just the right way. Well, what I want to say is that everything that the Buddha spins out over the next 45 years, one can see in that first discourse. And then, of course, after he does the middle path in the Eightfold Way comes the Four Noble Truths. There is suffering. There is a cause of suffering. There is liberation from suffering, the end of it, and there's a path leading to the cessation of suffering. And all the different meditative paths that have been developed in various countries over time can be found or subsumed under the path. Hmm. So whether it's Zen or whether it's one Buddhism or whether it's Thai Buddhism, well, you're talking about the countries and the cultures, there seem to be different meditative methods.

[26:57]

That's all they are. And all of those meditative methods comprise the path as delineated in the Four Noble Truths in that very first discourse. So it's not only called, it's not only the name given to the first sutra, The Dharma, Chakra, Pravartana, Sutra. Oh, that's the first turning. But these three turnings have to do with key texts, philosophical texts that become the foundation of the teaching. Key foci, key methodologies that are focused on different things. focused on dharmas, focused on atman, focused on shunyata. These make up the turnings. We shall go for it and see.

[27:58]

The scheme that said there are three turnings of the dharma, you can imagine these were mayana, So it's later than that first cluster of teachings. And these teachings, as I said, could be found throughout the Buddha's teaching. Any Theravadan, and introduce that word, I know you know what it means, but it's used instead of saying Hinayana, which was a Mahayana way of classifying what had gone before it. We're the great vehicle. That was the lesser view. So Theravada becomes sort of a generic name for all the early teachings of the Buddha, for all of them. And there were very many schools of Buddhism. I didn't want to do that as a slide, but you should know that originally, originally, oh, this is a graphic that shows the early teachings

[29:11]

schools of Buddhism, there were 18. A university professor once told me that if you wanted to study Zen Buddhism, excuse me, if you wanted to study Japanese Buddhism, one way of doing it was to talk about teachers and the specific sutra or meditative hook that they gave their students. And usually what you note over the course of history is that a certain teacher would streamline what was necessary to attain enlightenment. That was a great clue about how to memorize, if you will, how the teachings changed. For example, one teacher might say, a Japanese teacher might say, liberation can be gained if you recite the Lotus Sutra.

[30:19]

Another teacher would say, liberation can be gained if you recite one chapter of the Lotus Sutra. Another teacher would say, liberation can be gained if you recite one shloka of the Sutra. They would streamline. The great Zen master Dogen is renowned because of how he streamlined what was necessary to gain liberation through Zen. So do we need to sit with a Kung Ang, with a Koan? Dogen says, no, we just need to sit. That's a sort of streamlining, but of course it's much more complicated than that. But the streamlining tells you the progress. In a similar way, the three turnings is a Mayana way of saying that early teaching of the Buddha and that early teaching that's encapsulated in all of the Theravadan Pali Canon.

[31:31]

That was an early teaching of the Buddha. But then there's a second turning. And the second turning is said to have happened centuries after the Buddha. But was brought to our attention by a Mahayana philosopher whom you all know as the great Nagarjuna. Now, there are many tales about Nagarjuna and how he came up. with the so-called Prajnaparamita text. It said he went to the south. It said he went to the land of the Nagas. The Nagas were the keepers of wisdom, these serpentine beings who lived at the bottoms of the sea. Well, it said that Nagarjuna went to the land of the Nagas,

[32:33]

And he conquered them, Arjuna. He was the conqueror of the Nagas, Naga Arjuna, Nagarjuna. And he wrestled from them this great cache of wisdom text. And those wisdom texts lay out for us all the ultimate, that which you can't go beyond, wisdom, prajna. Oh, some pronounce that prajna. Prajna paramita. So there are said to be prajna paramita texts, and Edward Konza's translated them. You can find lots of translation these days. Edward Konza made them popular in the West. So there are prajna paramita texts that are 100,000 shloka long, There are Pragnaparamita texts that are 25,000 verses long.

[33:36]

There are the Pragnaparamita texts in 8,000 verses. Those in 300 verses, when you come to the most succinct, like the Diamond Sutras in 300 shloka. And then the Heart Sutra, which is just, oh, a page long. Oh. The Heart of Pragnaparamita. And I like to tell students that when you go into a Mahayana temple these days, even now, someone is tasked in that Mahayana monastery or nunnery. Their job is to constantly be reciting the Heart Sutra. Somewhere in that place, walked into a place, a Mahayana place, a Japanese place in Hawaii. And I said, is there really someone here reciting the Heart Sutra continuously? And I said, would you take me to that person?

[34:41]

And they took me, you know, and there was someone reciting the Heart Sutra. This most succinct form. Now, what did Pragnaparamita texts teach that Nagarjuna found and came back with? Now, it said he went to the Naga lands. That also means... or some suggest, interpret, that he went to southern India. Where, in South India of Nagarjuna's day, there was not only a matriarchy, there were women leaders, women who had more influence on their husbands, women who practiced Buddhism as opposed to their husbands who practiced Hinduism after the Buddha. After the Buddha, Hinduism comes into being. Before that, it's called Brahmanism. It's a different religious tradition. At any rate, he went south. And what was happening in the southern states was also the Greeks were meeting there.

[35:49]

The Greek philosophers were there at that time. And And so there is a cult in South India, many areas actually of South India, where Sophia cults are all, are in existence. So it could be that Nagarjuna went to Southern India at the time. We don't know. There's a lot of mythologies around it. Nagarjuna, who he was, how long he lived, for example. But it said he brought back this cache of text that had never been seen before. And what is their subject matter? Their subject matter is shunyata. Shunyata, emptiness, emptiness. We translate emptiness or voidness. Westerners do that, but what's really important is to know what is meant by the terms. What is something void of? What is something empty of?

[36:51]

You know, it's not all despair, emptiness, loneliness, existentialism, none of that. It's a way of talking about all reality. And it's one of those foci that I mentioned earlier. This will get clearer, I hope, soon. So Nagarjuna's texts, those texts he brought back, were all about chunyata. and emptiness and how we as Buddhists could understand what was meant by shunyata, shunyata, you know. In some of the Theravadan texts, you find sutra where a monk is saying to the Buddha, Lord Bhagavan, you talk so much, you say sunya, everything is sunya. What does that mean? Everything is sunya. And in the Theravadan texts, you have these... these sort of dialogues where the Buddha talks with King Melinda and he, you know, he says, is the chariot this part of it?

[37:55]

And the king has to say no. And the Buddha, so this construction, deconstruction thing, he runs on King Melinda till finally King Melinda understands that we named something, but that name is not, that name is not the reality. That name is a, part, it makes it up. But is there any such thing as that universal, that whole name? No. Can't find it. Likewise, can't find the self. This was the Theravadan's, the early turning way of talking about sunnah. So I can say it, I think, clearer now. In Theravadan text, Even though some of them mention suna. Sunya. The emphasis, and that's what the three turnings is about.

[38:55]

The emphasis is on dharmas. Dharma, small d, means any experiential event. So it's not actually just a concrete thing. It's experiencing that concrete thing. But the fashioners of the three turnings says that the first turning folk, meaning Theravadans, had a misconception. They thought that some dharma, small d, were actually real reality out there in the world. And so, because they were out there in the world, the Taravans turned their focus for gaining liberation on their Atmans.

[40:00]

In other words, don't deal with those things. Those Dharmas, they are there, but what's the meditative hook for us apart from the five aggregates? There is non-self. So the meditation hook for the Theravadan tradition, according to this schema, is atmanaratnya. There is no self in the self. That's the meditation. So going with these turnings, there are key texts. There are key philosophical views. There are key ontological views for some. We're going to see that the third one doesn't recognize. ontology at all. And there are key meditative hooks. I hope I'm being clear. There'll be question and answers. So the Theravadan tradition says there are dharmas in the world.

[41:05]

Now, they're not dharmas like we might say, book, ball, this, that, or the other. In fact, The different 18 schools had different numbers of dharmas they recognized. I find that amazing, huh? This is a list of the 75 dharmas of the Kusha school. The Kusha school means it's a school that takes as its chief book the Abhidharma Kosha of Asubandu. They recognize 75. Now, what are those dharmas like? One is mind. So it's not a book and a ball. Another dharma is perception. Another dharma is idea. Another dharma is energy. Another dharma is belief. For this school, there were 75. For a school before it, there were 100.

[42:07]

And as you move through the different schools, the number of dharmas lessens. When you get to Nagarjuna, there aren't any more dharmas. All is shunya. And the meditative hook is both atmanayaratmiya, there's no self in the self, and there is no self in any dharma whatsoever. That's when shunyata becomes blanket with the pragnaparamita text. Nagarjuna's take on the... On the Prajnaparamita text, which he brought back and he founded a school called Madhyamaka, his take was absolutely every dharma is empty. Everyone. There is no exception to this. So Nagarjuna writes his own key philosophical text, Mula Madhyamaka Karika's, the verses on Madhyamaka.

[43:12]

the Madhyamaka view. And it's a great text. The word shunyata is not mentioned anywhere and it's all about shunyata. It's brilliant. It's really exceptional. So the teaching of shunyata, what is that about? Tikaha. So we've had this, if you will, emphasis on dharmas, whether they're out there or they're in there, they're experiential. And then you have this second turning. Second turning is... Pragnaparamita, and its off-shoot, philosophical off-shoot, Madhyamaka. I wrote about these turnings in my graduate dissertation, and the book that came out talking about them, this may be much clearer, I hope. Oh, the book came out in 1979, Columbia U Press, And this is what I said then.

[44:17]

So maybe I'll, at the second turning, I'll give you a gist of the whole, of the three turnings. Okay. I'm reading from pages 14, 15 to 16, just a little bit of them. Mayana Buddhism recognizes three so-called turnings of the wheel of Dharma. It is a phrase used to refer to the three divisions of the scripture, namely the early scriptures of the Hinayana, I said, the intermediate scripture, including the Prajnaparamita literature and the Madhyamaka doctrine. And third, what is called by some scholars, I was refuting this, a kind of idealism. So some Buddhologists referred to the three turnings, trying to help us Western philosophers understand what they focused on, call them, one, the turning of naive realism, two, the turning of criticism, meaning Nagarjuna, and three, the turning of idealism.

[45:25]

Now, my book was written to say, was a translation of a Sangal who founded the third so-called Trini Yogacar, to say a Sangha very well understood what was meant by Shunyata. So he wasn't reinstating, if you will, that mind is somehow more real than anything else. So I was trying to correct that view. So here we go. This, I'm sorry, one more paragraph from this. One might imagine that the three as representing those stages of philosophical development within Buddhism, which took as their respective metaphysical foci, one, things, and here is meant dharma in the broadest sense, as any phenomenon, fact, or event that can be perceived, known, or thought to have a separate existence, followed by two, a consuming interest in shunyata,

[46:26]

as the denial of thingness, dharma nairatmiya. That came along with the theory of non-self of dharmas and the non-self of self. And lastly, the identification of these two. Identification of these two, that is the identification of things and voidness. So the first, there's an emphasis on things. as though they're separate from I, consciousness, mind. Then there's this overwhelming emphasis on shunya, [...] shunya. And then there's a third turning. How after shunya, shunya, shunya do you get to something else? Well, you do with the third turning of the wheel, which is the school that... Based, just as Nagarjuna's was based on the Prajnaparamita text, another school arises called Yogachara.

[47:31]

And the Yogachara reads that kunya a different way. Or it, if you will, changes the focus. So we've had their dharmas I'll focus on. Self is non-existent. I is non-existent. I is just made up. It's constructed of the five aggregates. my liberation will come when I see that apart from the five aggregates, there is no I. Then the second turning, shunya, shunya, shunya. Well, then we get things like the heart of that second turning can be seen in the Heart Sutra. But the Heart Sutra is the quintessence of all the Pragna Paramitas texts. Well, what does it say? I tell students, it's important to see who's talking to one another in these sutras. Sorry for jamming so much in here, but it's important who's speaking.

[48:35]

So in the Heart Sutra, what do you have? You have a conversation. Buddha's meditating as he always is. You have a conversation, however, in the Heart Sutra, just the most succinct, a conversation between Shariputra who is representative of the Theravadan wise wisdom person, and Abhilokiteshvara, or the Lord of Compassion. Marayana is about how compassion can temper this wisdom. So it's a conversation where Abhilokiteshvara, watches the Buddha meditating, turns to Shariputra and says, this is how you should do it. Now what does he tell him? He tells him, next sentence, form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

[49:40]

Form is no other than emptiness and emptiness is no other than form. This is the pinnacle of Nagarjuna's, what Nagarjuna was basing his philosophy on. But that wasn't the emphasis. People who came to, who came after Nagarjuna, Buddhists, who came after Nagarjuna were left actually despairing. How can we carry on if everything is empty? If everything is empty. Then comes a sangha, 200 years after Nagarjuna. A sangha looks at the Heart Sutra and says, just as Zen masters say, so easily, form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

[50:46]

The identification there is what's important. The identification of the two is what's important. And for Yogacarans, the emphasis turned back, if you will. It's like a cycle coming all the way around. The emphasis is not looking out, but it's looking in in a different way. The Yogacarans, the Yogacarans say we have to look within And how do we reconcile that everything is empty? We look at it a different way. So Asanga says this. It's not idealism. It says that everything we take to be a dharma is first something that has come to our minds, to our consciousness.

[51:48]

This sounds so simple, but... centuries of Buddhism. So yoga charans are saying we don't experience any of those dharmas directly. We experience them through the mind. And so the school becomes known as mind only. It's not about idealism. Asanga is saying, just as the early Buddhists were saying, we have experience with something. Maybe we see it. We see a pool of water. And he says, owing to our minds, we might see that as a cooling river. Birds might see that as a place to swoop down and have water. Some demons and hungry ghosts run away from that because they see it as only pus and blood. Asanga sang, Our minds change those things.

[52:54]

Quantum physics, that's all it was. Our minds change those things. Or the rope and the snake, if you will. I was scared when I thought it was a snake, but then I saw it was a rope and it's okay. Huh? A sangha emphasizes that our minds are what... what tells us what we are seeing. And if we know that all, we can, and then all these meditations come out of that too. It's called yoga char, the way of the yoga. And so we can use our mind flexibly. We can, so for Tantra, it was great. Yoga char, you know, our minds tell us what we experience. Okay. As Lama Tuktenyeji would say, we spend so much time thinking about ourselves negatively.

[53:56]

Let's think about ourselves positively because our minds are so important in what we experience. So that's Yogacharya, and that was the third turning. Now, I've said all this to say to you, especially you Zen practitioners, I love this. Though the Yogacharas came up with this three-fold scheme, and they did so in two texts, one, the Lankavatara, and the other, the Samdhinyamotana Sutra, the Unravelling the Secrets. And in that Samdhinyamotana, which is so, so Pregnant Paramita is essential for Nagarjuna, right? Samdhinyamotana is essential for a Sangha. And in the Samdhinyamotana Sutra, the Unravelling the Secrets, you have a... You have a monk saying to the Buddha, well, you know, Bhagavan, sometimes you taught this Dharma theory, and at other times you taught this emptiness theory, and then sometimes you say, don't worry about it.

[55:03]

Is my mind just feeble and weak as it is, no doubt? But have you taught different things? In other words, this sutra is the locus for the Buddha saying, no. I've taught the same thing. I just taught it depending upon the listener's ability to understand it. So yes, I taught the Dharma theory for those who needed it. And it made them ethical, made them turn away from dharmas in the world, made them realize renunciation. He says this in the scripture. And made them realize renunciation and turn towards... gaining wisdom through atmanayaratmiya, seeing that the self is not concrete. And then there were other people who had this fascination with dharmas, he says. And so to them, I taught shunya, [...] shunya.

[56:05]

So that they would give up their great attachment and attain liberation. And so there were some who could, he said, and now... I'm teaching this third teaching, which says dharmas and shunya are the same for those really, really wise ones. Now, this is what I'm trying to get to. So this scheme was developed first in this sutra called the Samdhani Namochena Sutra, and it was developed over time from the first century CE to the third century CE. the most complete version of it, 3rd century CE. So it's the latest text. And in the 12th century, Boudin, who was the redactor of the Tibetan canon, who gave us four ways of analyzing various tantras, Boudin says it so simply.

[57:09]

These three turnings. In one line, Boudin, who's written the famous history of Buddhism in India and Tibet. But then says, our teacher, the foremost of the shock is endowed with the four miraculous powers has taught us these things. Second sentence, he has revealed his doctrine in all of its three forms. And those three forms are the three turnings of the wheel of Dharma. Dharma chakra. Well, that was within 12th, 13th century. But you in the Chan Zen tradition have the Tang philosopher, Ching Wang Wei Xin. Wei Xin said, in the ninth century, I hope

[58:13]

Some of you will recognize his saying. Let me be sure I can read it correctly. Wei Xin said in the ninth century, before I studied the classics of Zen, I looked at mountains just as mountains. But now that I've studied for more than 30 years, I see no mountains, no rivers. But now, oh, with my heart at peace, I once again see mountains as mountains, rivers as rivers. Now, the whole point of this talk is to say that there are philosophical, literary, and very poetic ways of talking about the three turnings of the Dharma wheel.

[59:30]

And this Zen poet captured it like this. There are mountains when I'm just beginning. But after studying, I see that there are no mountains. My heart is at peace because I see the mountains again. This is the three turnings. Shortcut. And it was 1967 before the Scottish folk singer Donovan was given that phrase. And he wrote a song. First there is a mountain. Then there isn't. Then there is. First there is a mountain. Then there isn't. Then there is. Those are the three turnings. First, I see. Looks like a mountain, concrete. It's a dharma. Then I hear shunyata, shunyata, shunyata. And I think, if I'm practicing correctly, there's no mountain. There is no mountain. But then I understand that the mountain and emptiness, that emptiness is the mountain's nature.

[60:34]

That there is no difference. That form is emptiness and that very emptiness is form and my heart is at peace. So different skillful means for talking about all the three turnings or the three, you know, how you, what you emphasize in the Buddhist teaching. That's all. That's all. First there is a mountain, then there isn't. Then there is. Now, some of you have undoubtedly heard that phrase. Have you not? You might not have heard the 1967 Donovan song. My students say, who is that? But at any rate, that's one way of encapsulating the whole of the Buddha's teachings. And I hope it's been helpful to you. Timing.

[61:39]

Okay. Timing. There may be time for some questions. Koda? Certainly. Thank you so much, Jen. We'll move on with the transition to the Bodhisattva vows, and then we'll have some Q&A together. Okay. All right. Thank you. May our intention equally extend to every being and play... with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless, I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to become it. So if you would like to participate, in questions, comments, please raise your Zoom hand and a reminder of our practice of move up and move back.

[62:43]

If you tend to speak often, consider moving back to make space for others. And if you tend to move back, consider moving up. Thank you so much, Jen. And I see . Hi. Hello. Thank you so much for your talk. That was really interesting and illuminating. I do have a question. I have often at least a number of times heard a particular story about the transition from like into the second turning and then the third turning. And I'm wondering if you if I could tell you and then have you reflect on it. Thank you. So the story that I often hear is that when the introduction of the wisdom teachings swept the Buddhist schools, that it resulted in a sort of ethical malaise, right?

[63:48]

A sense of, you know, if everything is empty, then there's no reason to uphold precepts anymore. And that it created some sort of ethical crisis inside of Buddhist communities. And that the third turning of the wheel was in some way the application of a medicine, right? An attempt to sort of bring the sangha back together to restore harmony in the sangha among the monks who were becoming deeply nihilistic. And yeah, and that the third turning is a sort of medicine for the second turning. to restore ethical structure and harmony. I'm wondering if you've ever heard that or if you could say anything about that understanding. Thank you. I think that's a great story. And I think there's some truth to it. Nagarjuna is called the wisdom, the head of the wisdom line of Mariana.

[64:53]

Asanga is called the head of the compassion line. So a sangha is providing medicine for those who found either Nagarjuna's teaching far too nihilistic and falling into the extreme of nihilism. And whether they gave up the vows or they went insane, I've heard also, a sangha is trying to offer solace. And to say, wait, wait, that's not all of it. And so giving medicine sounds like a good metaphor. It also explains it. This is even in my grad school days. We wondered, how can you have this early emphasis on Dharma? and then this complete nihilistic thing seemingly going on, and then have something afterwards.

[66:01]

I mean, how is it possible? So in Asanga's teachings, he says, he says up front, there has to be a place for us to stand, to see our errors, both our errors, what is possible. So a Sangha, well, there are a lot of things. There's, you've probably heard of some, yaleya vijjana, vignaptimatra, a thing is only what we name it and that is, that has to do with the mindset that names it. But the other thing that a Sangha is noted for is that these sort of three levels of knowing, Three levels of knowing. He says that when we just name a dharma, we should know that that's what he called parikarpita.

[67:05]

That's complete illusion. And the story's about, you know, if it's not complete illusion, if we walk into a room, the table would say to itself, my name is Table. That doesn't happen, you know. We all... So he said, just the variance in languages should tell us that our words don't aptly get at that thing. We all have different words for it. But he said, so there has, so Parikavala is just what comes out of our mouth, the name. We should know that that's not connected actually to something. But it is connected to something. So Asanga says, there has to be a base. Even though we make a mistake, we make it based on something. That is, we call the rope a snake, but the rope is actually there. Something is there. We just mistake it, right? And so he says, we need a place to stand, and he calls that paratantra, a place in the middle to see parikapita and to see the highest truth, paramakha.

[68:17]

So he introduces this place to stand for all those who listened to Nagarja and saw no place to stand. Thanks for your question. Pleasure. Doesn't have a camera, but I will unmute or I'll ask to unmute now. Okay. Hi, Professor Willis. I was taught that karma forces us to see things in a certain way. Are the Yogacarans including karma's part of mind that causes different sentient beings to see things in a certain way? And then another quickie in the back end. Do the Yogacarans attribute dependent arising to the mind? Oh, good one. Karma is one of those. Karma is one of those dharmas. It's there from the time of Theravada Buddhism.

[69:21]

Second part, what is dependent origination? Do they attribute dependent arising to the mind? I fear that that will make the mind more... imminent and concrete than Yogacharans make it. Yogacharans, I think, are saying, oh, let's make this clear. Yogacharans change the conversation by saying that the way we've been looking, we've been looking at dharmas smacks of an ontology. Whereas what the Buddha was actually saying, the yoga charts would say, is that we should be concerned about how it is that we know things.

[70:30]

That's why for me, it's like coming back around to, you know, mindfulness, watching how the mind either attaches onto something or doesn't. Asanga has us change the focus so that we're not looking out We are looking inward, but we're looking inward and we have an extra watcher. It's not about what we see when we look inward so we don't find a self. It's about how we come to think there's a self in the first place. It's about that endeavor, if that's helpful. I'm not sure. I think that was a really good question you asked. Okay. It just makes me have more questions, but thank you. Me too. That's all right. You know, in one way, mind and dharmas, they, they, they, oh, well, Buddha didn't want us to speculate, but mind and, I'm not saying you, I'm thinking me, but they're,

[71:47]

They're talking about how the mind operates. In the first turning and the first sutra the Buddha taught on meditation, he's talking about investigate. Investigate what? Investigate body. Investigate feeling. Investigate sensations. But what are the yoga charans investigating? That's the question. They're investigating how it is that the mind attaches to things or not. I'll have to leave it. It's a good question. Thank you so much. Not sure I can answer it. Thank you. Thank you, Sandra. Can I just say one other thing that I learned about this?

[72:49]

Oh, I like the ninth century way of saying it. First there's a mountain, then there isn't, then there isn't. And I hope you get that the last time that Wei Xin says that there's a mountain, that perception is qualitatively different than the first one. Y'all get that? Because that third time, the perceiver actually gets that the mountain is empty. Recognizing the identity of the two. Okay, it's qualitatively different. Now I want to say this small thing. So over the... over the many, many years, I've had occasion to take some karate, right?

[73:52]

Me, never got beyond yellow belt in a certain system. And, you know, I was white belt for the longest time in this other system. But I had this great teacher in one tradition, Okinawan teacher, who said to me, some of you are trying to become black belts, you know, yellow, orange, green, whatever. you know, of the brown and black. And he said, but the best teachers, the best teachers, once they attain the black belt, they come back down. Huh? Did you know that? It blew my mind that then they have a white sash, which is the beginning, right? It's a white silk sash. And he said he knew people who had earned that degree. Blew my mind. QUITE AGAIN, BUT IT'S QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT. OH, I'M HAPPY TO LAUGH WITH YOU. OTHER QUESTIONS?

[74:54]

YES, ANNETTE. HELLO, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR LIFETIME OF scholarship and love and great humor and i don't really have words to say what i really want to thank you for but it's your laugh your expressions that aren't specific words that i even know what they mean but anyway i just want to give that heart honor and i just am so thrilled to know you're alive in the world thank you yeah my question has to do with in our tradition um the and tradition, we study and have a teacher and then get to a point where we're allowed to have a certain level for lay people even of initiation into practice and take what we call the Bodhisattva vow.

[75:59]

That is what is one of the things that's most precious to me about this tradition and that's kind of the heart of what I wanted to ask you about is that part that isn't just about understanding and experience, but to me is taking that out to action in the world to deal with not just doing good deeds, you know, giving socks and giving food as long as people are poor, but looking at the deep roots and then working with others around that. You know, so really social action. That's just my interpretation. Nobody specifically told me that, but that's how I interpret as sort of the deep bodhis vow of being a bodhisattva is to look deeply with others and address the root causes of, you know, discrimination or poverty or, you know, look at that.

[77:03]

We even have things called election sashims where we work together and study. So I want to ask you what you think about all that, you know, the idea of where does that play into the three turnings and that commitment? You know, we have priests, not priests who work in prisons and blah, blah, blah, blah. So what do you think about all that? Where's the connection to Buddhism in any of these turnings? just stop there. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, well. All right. So today I've been focused on the sort of a way of understanding all of the scriptures. You know, it's a scheme. It's a display.

[78:07]

It's a way of a talking about those. We weren't really talking about what Buddha's practice should lead to or would inevitably lead to if we were doing it. In the first turn, though, the Buddha taught that there is suffering and all the first two truths, right? There's suffering. Then there's a cause. So dependent origination is about cause and effect. There's something. There's an effect. There is suffering. There's a cause. What is it, Trishna, you know? Craving, desire. There's an end. That's an effect. There's a cause following the path. Cause and effect right there in the Four Noble Truths. So all of the later things are right there. But the Buddha taught, importantly, he taught suffering first. And suffering is a great equalizer.

[79:11]

Everyone, the Buddha says, suffers. He never said life is suffering. He just said there is suffering in life, right? So suffering, cause of it, end of it, is the way of the end. And that's menace, a great, great medicine, right? But if you had been, if you, sorry, I don't know how to say it. I've given maybe... 15 talks this year. And this is the first one that's a Dharma talk on philosophy. Because what I've been talking about is Buddhism and race for a great many of my talks. And social justice has to be a part of that. So we can use Buddhism to focus it on ourselves and to get liberated. We can gain Nirvana. But that is not the mayana path. The mayana path, it's mayana, it's greater, right?

[80:15]

Takes more beings to liberation. And that is to the cause, the causes that bring liberation, right? That's our task in the mayana. That's what a bodhisattva is. What is a bodhisattva? One who has bodhicitta. And chitta is twofold. It means mind and heart. Mind and heart. Okay. So the first step on the Mayana path is a more expansive step. It's not just I want to gain liberation from suffering. It's I want to help all these other beings gain it too. It's like if you can swim and you come across a place and people are floundering in the water, You want to get them out and then you want to help them swim. And you might say, oh, it's so easy. I'll teach you how to swim. That's important. Right? A bodhisattva wants to liberate all beings.

[81:20]

My favorite author is Shantideva. And Shantideva says we make these vows, you know, bodhisattva vows. We make these vows to liberate all beings. All right? In the Tibetan, at least you say, without exception, right? So Shantideva says you have to remember that you don't take a vow to liberate all beings except this one and this one, except. There's no exceptions, right? So either you're committed all the way or you're just pretending. So that's a Mahayana path. If you step onto that, your vow... is to liberate all beings. However many doors you vow to enter them, however many beings you vow to liberate them. And you don't say, except this one or except that one. So, and also the Mayana talks about the two truths. There's conventional and absolute. What I find sometimes, well, often enough, in Dharma gatherings is that there's sort of, there's,

[82:29]

white male patriarchal view, that if you bring up things about race or social justice, they will say, not here, come on. Or they'll say, there's an ultimate view, get with the program, right? So I would say in response, you can't skip over this relative part. Here I am in a black body, right? You have to deal with that. Or as Wittgenstein would say, you have to begin with error to get to truth. That's what Asanga was saying. You have to make a place where you can see both to gain liberation. So social justice is definitely a part of the Maya. And the last thing I would say about it is, don't know where I can go here, but I will. The Dalai Lama once said to a few of us, don't feel like you have to wait for the future when you attain some clear signs that you're a bodhisattva to help beings.

[83:40]

Start helping beings where you are and where beings need it. It's our, we should do it as human beings, but okay, let's do it as Buddhist. everybody deserves not to suffer. Thank you so much. Thank you, Annette. Appreciate it. We have about four minutes. So if we would like to have maybe one more exchange, and then Chan, I'd like to invite you to offer a closing word. I like the response to Annette as the closing word. Let's get out there at work for the benefit of beings. Okay. All right. Okay.

[84:47]

I don't see any other hands. Jan, the floor is yours. And then I'd like to... And then what? Oh, I see just now. I see that a hand has come up. Okay. Fatima, are you on? Yes. Am I visible? Can you hear me, Jen? Fatima? Yes. This is on you. Oh, sorry. It's okay. Do you hear me well? Yes. Yeah. I remember, first of all, thank you for a wonderful talk and your wonderful spirit. My pleasure. I once watched a video of you talking about that Buddha was an activist. Yes. Yes. I was just wondering if you could say something about that. Do you want me to say something about Buddha being an activist? Yes. Okay.

[85:48]

Okay. So once, back in 2015, I wrote an article saying, we cry out for justice. This was about Michael Garner and a comparison of things that Martin Luther King had said and things that the Buddha had said. And the magazine, Shambhala Lions Roar, found this graphic for the article and I keep it because I think that's so great. See it's an image of the Buddha and he's holding a sign saying Black Lives Matter. And of course he would. He would because he was an activist. So the Buddha completely overturned the conventions of his time. In 6th century BC India, right? The caste system was very rigid and people didn't DIDN'T DO THINGS TOGETHER, ESPECIALLY THEY DIDN'T EAT TOGETHER, THE BUDDHA FOUNDED A SANGHA THAT ACCEPTED ALL CASTES.

[86:52]

THEN THE BUDDHA ACCEPTED WOMEN. THAT BLEW THINGS WIDE OPEN. SIXTH CENTURY B.C. INDIAN. SO YES, I THINK HE WAS A RADICAL. HE HAD A RADICAL VISION OF WHAT SOCIETY AND COMMUNITY COULD BE. And so I have no doubts whatsoever that the Buddha would be out there marching with this placard saying Black Lives Matter. Because he knew that all lives matter. And he knew that you only have to state the obvious when it's so obviously not been acceded to by a larger society. Black Lives Matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, Fatima. Appreciate it. That's a lovely one you have there. Is that your one? He's matching you. Yes.

[87:56]

We're the same color. Yes. Lovely. Lovely to meet you, Jan. Great to see you. Wonderful. I hope that they're not parting words. I hope that we come together again. And I hope that in the meantime, everyone stays healthy and happy and that you have the causes for happiness as well. And that, yeah, yeah, that you keep well and you take care of your bodies. And it's been a pleasure to be here today. Thank you so much. Thank you all. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Jan Willis, thank you to the assembly. And we should be able to unmute now if folks would like to say goodbye or whatever's on your heart. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[88:57]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I'm going to listen to this one again. Thank you. Take care, everyone. Thank you. Come back. Thank you for your laugh. Thank you for your laugh. The greatest laugh. I never saw so much energy in the Zen temple as today. Okay. Okay. Good. Definitely come back. Thank you. I'd be happy to. Thank you. Appreciate it. Look at that baby. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was amazing. Thank you for teaching and your wonderful heart. Thank you.

[89:54]

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