do is my best yes all you can do is my best your best yes when I first took an inhalation I was aware that my habitual mechanical mind was trying to pay attention and that that made The observation of myself an object. An object to be observed. Did everyone hear that? No? So Griffin was saying that at first when she observed herself, when they observed, when he observed himself, I'm sorry, it was as an object. Okay, so the beginning of concentration or observation, there was this apartness where you were standing away from yourself and observing yourself as an object.

[01:08]

Excuse me for misgendering you. I'm just not used to it yet. I'm making a transition. Me neither. Okay, thanks. And, you know, this pushback of, I'm not an object. And that makes everyone else an object if I'm In that. Mind. And then the exhale. Was a possibility. Of. Just. Being in a present. Moment. Of. My body. What's occurring. Very much more alive. Because it's not. a memory or an effort in the future. And that is. Such a. I guess I'm still I'm viewing it as a dilemma.

[02:11]

Oh, a koan. Well, what I'm saying is that we think of koans as ancestor stories. But we only think that because we don't have personal experience in our own history of the ancestors. These things are actually koans that our own bodies and minds are presenting to us through the body. So what happens in meditation is if we start in an adrenalinized place, let's say anything has happened to us, even if we drove here. If we start with any kind of adrenaline at all, the adrenalinized mind, as you know, doctor, is different perceptually from the non-adrenalinized mind. The adrenalized mind is part of an emergency response team that the internal part of the body sets up.

[03:19]

It neuroendocratically communicates. neuroendocrinally communicates to itself to look at moving objects, react very quickly before the thinking mind can interfere. And there's a kind of wave that if we're paying attention, we can experience from that. We can experience an adrenaline wave. in that the heart rate is faster and because of that the thoughts are faster. And that will happen as long as that chemical message continues in the body. The way the body works is that that endocrine message is then absorbed and digested physically and physiologically by the body and Unless we've trained ourselves to be habitually adrenalinized, it settles down.

[04:24]

The exhalation is a wonderful way to settle it down. But sometimes you have to repeat the exhalation. And sometimes, like, for instance, when I was kind of neurologically different due to... brain injury and trauma, you can't settle it down. So like, for instance, after I just had surgery, I couldn't settle it down for months. Months. Because I was constantly reacting to pain. And so I had to actually work medically with my nervous system. so that it would stop sending those messages to my endocrine system so that my communication could start including rest and digest.

[05:30]

And every time we go into meditation, we have to balance this kind of uptoning of the body with the downtoning of the body. So you might try this. When you exhale, uplift your chest. That gives you a fine-tuning knob in your exhalation. When you inhale, release your groins and feel the earth, which gives you a fine-tuning knob for the inhalation. So when we use both of those fine-tuning knobs, the waves get smaller, and you begin to fine-tune yourself towards this state of which is still an open tone, but it's a quiet one. So it's like music. It's like tuning an instrument. You're tuning your instrument. And so a long answer to a short question, because it really gets into the systems of our body and how we're conditioned to be.

[06:39]

Yes. You know, Vicki, I always like the story of the sun-faced Buddha, the moon-faced Buddha, because it's so reassuring. It makes the world seem alive. It makes the world seem alive. Who's under that mask? I think it's Jim. It is. Okay, good. I haven't seen you in a while. No. Welcome back. Yes, been busy. So, what I'm concerned about is putting the Buddha name on it. I mean, we always become so easily grandiose about very minor things that happen in our lives instead of just letting go of them because something even more profound will take place. Mm-hmm. That's something I always work on, and especially trying to be down on the ground and not some great, mighty, wonderful person.

[07:58]

So whenever I see the words Buddha, I kind of like. I get it. Okay, that's enough. Thank you. Yeah. Sometimes I tell this story of when I really appreciate your question. So for people who don't know, Jim has been practicing for 45 or 50 years. And we've known each other our whole adult life a little. Our paths cross. We've sat together in many settings. And so one time I was going to lecture with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. And this was in a very big place. And he had a lot of attendants. And he got up to the front of the room and he started bowing to his seat, full frustrations to his seat. And his attendant was like, what are you doing? And so his attendant said, what are you doing?

[09:02]

And he said, this is the Buddha's seat. It's not my seat. No human being can fill the place of the Buddha. So the Buddha saying stuff like Buddha is booby trapped. You're right. But also it's even worse to be like sitting in Buddha's seat and trying to give a lecture. And knowing that whatever comes out of your mouth doesn't tell the whole story. Having a word like Buddha is comforting to the thinking mind, even though it booby traps our actual understanding. And that's part of why we have to sit and practice. It's part of why there's all these stories about Zen masters who were enlightened, and then they went and lived under bridges or worked as cooks or bartenders, you know, or beachcombers.

[10:06]

You know what I mean? So the words are booby-trapped. Any word that we use is wrong. It's also right. Because Buddha, you know, it's a placeholder. It's like, you know, when Arabs invented the zero, they meant for zero to be nothing. But zero as a number is incredibly useful. Zero is not nothing. So anytime you want to think about nothing, if you say the word zero, it gets in the way. If you say the word emptiness, it gets in the way. It substitutes an idea for actual emptiness. So it's true in human relations as well. Anytime I think Dave gets in the way. Right? Do you want to comment on that?

[11:07]

I'll put my mask on. Yes, as long as Dave is your version of me. But I was thinking during the talk that one of my main needs for practice is to think of myself as Dave is also an attachment. Because I'm clinging to this version of myself that I have invented and that I project. And I know I'm trying to look like somebody. And as long as I'm still trying to do that, it's going to be well nigh impossible to make the kind of connection to another person. that would be required if it's really going to be an enlightened, mindful experience of relationship.

[12:18]

So I'm keeping that in mind as I go along. Well, sorry, my mask got tangled in my glasses. Okay, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here or human advocate here. In my phone book, do you think, or in my contacts, I don't have Connect. I have Dave. You know, when I'm thinking of doing a workshop, I was thinking of doing the workshop with Dave, not with unnamed emptiness. Just saying, Dave is a useful concept. And it's not just an unuseful concept, it's also a useful concept.

[13:21]

So Buddha is not just a booby-trapped concept, it's also a useful concept, it's both. My question has to do with when is it skillful to use Buddha And when is it skillful to not use Buddha? Because recognizing that there is a Buddha and that there is a no Buddha, that's a work of five minutes. But knowing when to pull one up seems to be taking over 50 years for me. You know, I think I would have to say I really, you know, I've been practicing with this a lot. And I really don't know. I really don't know. I mean, there's an example, Dave, there's an example of a relationship which I talked to you about in which the person thought, oh, she's Buddha. And that led all, they didn't actually tell me that that was going on, but it led to all sorts of problems, which now I have to clear up somehow.

[14:33]

I have a responsibility as the teacher in that situation, Jim, yeah. You know, I think we can understand compassion, kindness, love, tolerance towards each other a lot easier than we can understand some sort of abstract idea of emptiness or ultimate wisdom or any of those terms. And so as I'm getting older, that's what I'm really focusing on, you know, not doing any damage to myself. Not doing any damage to other people. And being aware of the extent of suffering that exists in the world. I think that's a good place to put down my roots. It gives me some motivation. And I'm just real comfortable looking at things that way. Thank you. Because that means that the gym of five minutes ago isn't the gym that you're responding to now. And that's what Dave was just saying. Okay.

[15:40]

We have Pepe in the Zoom. Can you unmute? Hello, Victoria. Anya Jose from Madrid. Yeah. I use your koan in Spain in a different order. When my students or my colleagues or friends enter the room and they say how hot it is or how cold it is, at that moment, I said to them, remember that hot or cold, it is your mood. At that moment, they start to react and say, what do you mean? And I insist, remember, 32 Fahrenheit, it is no cold nor hot.

[16:41]

So we are just in the range of cold or warm because this is your mood that makes sense saying it is hot and it is cold. And this is the kind of play I keep with them. So they start to say who I am. That is my application of your one. Thank you. Sorry, thank you. Did everyone, oh, the other piece, sorry. Did everyone hear that? Did everyone hear that? That 32 Fahrenheit, zero Celsius is your mood. So what does it mean? How does it reflect back on who you are at that moment? So when we say hot or when we say cold, it's a relative term. It's a term that's used by the comparative mind and going to a place that's neither hot or cold is going to a place that doesn't compare hot or cold.

[17:49]

So for instance, when I first went to Tassajara, it was really hot. So when I sat at Tassajara, it was 110 degrees. So it was like, I don't know what that is in Celsius. What is that, like 38, 45 or something? 40? Yeah, 40 degrees. And so around me on the Zabutan, there was like this ring of sweat. And then pretty soon it was really cold. And at that time in 1980, when I sat at Tangaryu, we weren't allowed to wear socks, gloves. scarves, hats, and there was no heat in the Zendo. I was freezing. And anyway, I had to learn how to sit equally in those situations. So there is an element of it being about one's mood.

[18:53]

But at the same time, heat gave me sweat and cold gave me chill blinks. that has nothing to do with my idea. It has to do with how I'm built. Maybe how I'm built is nothing more than an institutionalized idea. Like maybe DNA is an idea, but it's a very deep idea that's not usually accessible to us. Anyway, I really appreciate that question because it brings to mind, at what level is there no heat or cold? How deep do we have to go for there to be no heat or cold and for us to respond in that way? Does that even address your question a little? I think it's very useful. Thank you. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Can I be heard?

[20:12]

Yeah. Thank you for your talk. I really appreciate you mentioning the body. And I was wondering what would be your response. The experience I have is being in the body feels like being present, feeling hot and feeling cold. And when thoughts start to happen, It feels like disassociating from the body and not being present anymore. Yeah, I'd like to bring up the concept of levels or layers in our meditation practice. So usually in the Zen teaching, we tend to de-emphasize the gradual path and emphasize the sudden path in our tradition. So we tend to emphasize awakening and what it can do for us. But I would like to right now emphasize yogic steps and stages.

[21:16]

And to say that when we start with the body, that is the first step. To go to a place where we're not moody in the body, as we just heard. But then how do you get from the body? to the sense of disturbance or peace in the mind and in one's whole being. So I want to talk about it as a developmental process of steps and stages of growth as a human being, as a practitioner, and as a yogi. So let's say we go to a place where there's neither heat or cold in the body. And what happens then is that when we see a thermometer that says zero, or when we see a thermometer that says 40, when we see a thermometer that says 32, or when we see a thermometer that says 110, we will know that we can sit.

[22:25]

So the tendency to cycle into fight and flight with heat or cold will be stilled. the sensation of pain will be stilled. So we will be stilled, settled at a physiological level. Which means that our basic attraction or aversion will not arise. And our perceptual mind that categorizes thoughts doesn't have to be activated. So there's a whole... stream of things that has to occur before we reach the level of settling the mind. So what I would like to suggest in the meantime is that you let the thoughts be like waves and stay in your meditation like water, but allow the meditative temperature of the water to begin to diffuse from the floor up further towards the middle sea all the way up to the waves.

[23:31]

It's a process. Another way to look at it is that usually our karmic consciousness is like a stream. And in normal life, before we start meditating, we're usually going downstream. So we usually let the force of the stream take us wherever it wants to. But to decide to meditate is to decide to stand in the stream. So you immediately feel the force of the stream. and of the entire length of the stream that is creating the force of the stream. So the entire slope of the stream, the entire length of the stream, is creating the momentum and inertia of that flow. And then, in practice, the courageous act that we do is that we turn Instead of turning away from the flow, we turn towards the flow.

[24:34]

And we take a step against that whole force of the entire stream, its entire history along its whole slope, its entire volume along its whole length. We keep walking. There's actually a poem about this. In my middle years, I've become rather fond of the way. Sometimes I go alone into the forest to see the things that only I can see. I follow the string to the source and sit and wait and watch the clouds come up. Or perhaps I meet a woodsman and we laugh and sing and forget the way home. You know? So that laughing and singing and forgetting the way home isn't at the beginning of the poem.

[25:36]

It's at the end of the poem. But it was there all along. Your friendliness, your ability to laugh and sing was there all along. But you had to go all the way up to the source of the stream to come to the place where the woodman was there. You could have fun. Thanks. It's not just with ourselves and our body. It happens with people, with humans in applying our practice as well. So, you know, we often talk about tolerance. One of the ways that we tolerate each other during the pandemic is by being in small spaces with each other, with masks and stuff like that, trying to relate to each other on Zoom with masks and so on. And it's a process.

[26:37]

How do we find intimacy when it's hard to settle the mind, when it's hard to be tolerant and patient and appreciative of others when we're being crowded? So it's not just a question of meditative bliss. It's a question of how do we be a sangha for each other? How do we be spiritually together? And I think that's one of the reasons I really wanted to do this workshop with you. I wonder if you I mean, you have a space, you have a nice house, but there are many people you work with who don't. And also you had to travel at times when it wasn't really very safe. And you've been teaching this whole time. So I do want to ask you about that, because I think you might have a. A more widely interesting point of view on how do we settle the mental kind of waviness or disturbance with other people in difficult times, in times when we're pressured.

[27:55]

And how do we take it from tolerating being in an airplane with other people to actually being happy? to relate to them. Do you, are you interested in commenting on this or? Not really, okay. But it's a question for me. You had another, yeah. Are we good? Anything else we need to do? Yeah, one more. You have to hold it up like this. No, that way. Yeah, like an ice cream cone. Okay. Okay. I guess I would love to hear a little more about what you were just mentioning and asking Dave.

[29:00]

Because I'm in a situation similar to what you first spoke about with a friend who has been a good friend for 40 years. We're trying to share an apartment now and there's a lot, I feel often disrespected and small and not myself. And I'm trying to turn towards her and have conversations with her. And it's, you know, there is, she's open, you know, a little bit. So that's all I know to do is just keep turning towards and having that conversation. But at times it's very painful. Yeah. And what I'm going to say is don't try to lift heavy weights with your pinky. So this relates to this question just now. How do you get actual space from each other so that you come fresh? How do you have enough alone time that the conversation will be meaningful? So that means approach it first on the physical level of walking by the ocean or in the park just so you have enough alone time.

[30:09]

arranged that each of you will give each other alone time. Right. It's self-care. Yeah. Yeah, really. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your question. I was also going to suggest when you said I'm continually turning toward her, I found it helpful. to ask someone, what feels like turning toward you? How do I turn toward you in a way that's meaningful and respectful? Sometimes the other person's idea of what the turning toward will mean is different from our own. So it's the concept in relationships of continually checking out the vocabulary. how does this feel to you?

[31:10]

Instead of, I think this is what will feel right to you. And I don't mean you're doing that. I just mean any of us might do that. Does this make sense? It does, because I think what might be turning towards for me may be invasive for someone else. There you go. So we're always continually checking. And not in a compulsive way. But just because we want the information. I was thinking of this, for some reason, this quotation of St. Teresa of Avila, who is a Spanish mystic, came to me and I thought, well, this is kind of a koan. She says, Lord, consider that we do not know ourselves, that we do not know what we really want, and that we go infinitely far astray from that which we most deeply desire.

[32:26]

And I thought to myself, is this what I'm up to? Is this what I'm doing all the time? I'm saying my deepest desire is enlightenment, but am I doing what it takes to move along that path? Do I really know myself or what I really want? And resting in that kind of uncertainty has to become okay rather than I better get everything organized and Make sure I'm walking the path exactly as I should. I'm letting it be okay that I may not know whether I am or not. And that phrase, just doing my best, would be all that I require of myself.

[33:33]

So it's the purity of our intention that would matter. To let our mistakes be meaningful in that light. Don't see the world or yourself as an object. Or far from it we stray. You know, today as we walk alone, whichever way we turn, we meet ourselves. They're just me. I'm not them. My ideas aren't them. So understanding ourselves as an object isn't understanding ourself. And if we know this, we're on the path. The path isn't something that is just, you know, you go on it or something.

[34:33]

The path is each moment of not knowing, of acknowledging where we're limited, That's a moment of awakening. That's a moment of neither heat nor cold. But there is no gate except this. This is the gate. There isn't some gate. This is it. And that's what's meant by all beings. not just beings we're having fun with right now, all beings. You know, that annoying being, all beings. Okay, we're good. Okay, I think we're done. Thank you.

[35:37]

Thank you.

[35:40]

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