This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I... He was very earnest in my practice, but not all that skillful. But he was very encouraging. The first time I went to see him in Dokusan, I was really extremely nervous. hesitant to go, and my friend Meg kept saying, you know, go see Tsukuroji, go see Tsukuroji, you know, sort of practically shoving me in the door.

[01:10]

But I was so in awe of him, you know, that anyhow, I did go to see him, and I was wearing my big circular black skirt that I'd made for sitting zazen. And I was, of course, on my best behavior, but in fact, I forgot that I was supposed to bow three times and I only bowed once. So at some point he said, you know, if you touch your head three times when you bow, you can bow to me three times instead of once. And I still didn't get the hint that I was supposed to have bowed three times. So I thought, oh, he's telling me that the rule is you touch your head three times when you bow, not you should have bowed three times. And I was carefully arranging my skirt so it would be nice about him.

[02:23]

He said, you do that because you respect me. And that was kind of a surprising thing for someone to say. But it was true. And then, you know, I didn't know if he knew me from a fly on the wall. I'd never spoken to him before. I didn't know if he had any idea who I was, if I was... Anyhow, he said, clearly he did know... something about who I was because he said, well, it's so nice to see your daughter and your husband practicing with us that, you know, they can do that because of the sincerity of your practice. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes when wife begins to sit, husband gets jealous like she had a new boyfriend.

[03:24]

And I've seen that happen, you know, because someone gets very enthusiastically involved in zazen and their friends say, well, gee, where'd they go? But what had happened with my daughter and my husband is that they went to Berklee Zendo with me and heard him give lectures there. And they, of course, started practicing on their own because... because he was who he was. So in that case, when I was feeling very, very small and inadequate, he was boosting me up. On the other hand, I was a very diligent student, and we were doing a lot, a lot of us were counting breaths at that time. And they're making a big effort to count breaths.

[04:28]

And... I was doing a one-day sitting, and I was really focusing on counting my breath. And so when I went to see him for dhokusan, I said, Roshi, I can count my breath now. I counted every breath all day. What do I do next? And he said, don't ever imagine that you can sit rather sharply. Don't ever imagine that you can sit zazen. Zazen sits zazen. So when I was, you know, saying, hey, look at me, he said, down, baby, down. So it seems like he was very sensitive to what was going on in the room and his teaching changed for what was required right then and right there in that moment of my practice.

[05:51]

And that... I think the wonderful thing that I recall about Suzuki Roshi was he was... Sometimes he was very serious, but sometimes he was very playful. Any of those you've met his son, Hoetsu, when he's here, if you notice, he's also very playful and has a great sense of humor. But... I still... For me, the loving-kindness meditation as I get older seems to me to be the teaching that touches my heart most. And when I looked at Suzuki Roshi teaching, I could see the love and the kindness. And it was all based on...

[06:56]

Seeing Buddha in everyone. I got off the track here somewhere in my mind. Sorry. I did want to tell you about the end of that first dokusan because it was quite astonishing to me.

[08:03]

When I got up to end the dokusan, I knew that the form was fluff the cushion, put it down on the Zabaton, stand back behind the cushion and make three bows again. And so I got up and I was fluffing the cushion and I started to step back and I don't want to go back, I want to go closer. I mean, it isn't that I thought it out loud, that I thought it in those words, it's just my body was doing it Instead of stepping back to bow, I ran around and bowed right where my head was touching his left knee. Because I wanted to bow to him. I was feeling such a bond with him. I wanted to be clear. I wasn't just bowing to be bowing. I was bowing to him. I mean, I guess that's what... I didn't think about any of this. It's just my body moved that way.

[09:07]

But... He was sitting there and I started around and I put my, I bowed down and put my head as close as I could get it to him. When I lifted my head, he was head to head with me on the floor. He had jumped up and was bowing head to head with me. He wasn't a young man at the time. He was in his 60s at least. And I walked out of there stunned and, what does that mean? I mean, oh my God. And I told my friend Megan, she said, oh, don't be silly, that's just Buddha bowing to Buddha. Okay. But his response was just like that. And that's what I remember mostly. And all of the pictures I have of him, and I have quite a few, he's either laughing or smiling.

[10:09]

Maybe there's one or two that has a stern face, but I can't think of one right now. He could be stern, as I say, with respect, for example, to the, what do I do now? But that was just an obvious response to my, hey, I can do it now. tell me I'm a good girl. So I do think that his practice demonstrated his complete conviction that all beings have Buddha nature. He was working with a bunch of Buddhas here that came to practice with him. And I don't think there was any question in his mind.

[11:15]

I think maybe we have a little bit of trouble with seeing Buddha in everyone. And I think it's good for us to notice when that's not happening and what, if anything, I'm contributing to the fact that I'm not seeing Buddha anymore. In you, in you, in you, in everyone. And in myself. And I kind of think that's what method practice is, what loving kindness meditation is, is really, really immersing yourself in the understanding that all beings are Buddha nature. And our work with ourselves and with our friends that we work with is to bring out that Buddha nature and let that be what is guiding us in our practice.

[12:25]

So I think somebody has passed out copies of The Loving Kindness Meditation. Does everybody have one? I think probably if I'm going to leave people, I better have one in my hand. I don't think I need it, but that's just... So let's just chant it together if you'd be so kind as to indulge me.

[13:30]

Loving-kindness meditation. This is what should be accomplished by the one who is wise. Seeks the good and has the pain. Peace that will be strength and self-rightness. Concierge without pride. Easy and joyless. Let one not be discouraged by the things of the world. Let one not take upon oneself the burden of virtues. Let one censor see a fool. Let one be wise that not by sight. Let one not desire great possessions, even growing sadly. Let one do nothing that is easy, but let the wise to true. May all ye see happy. May they be joyless in living in safety. All they be So let it be weak or strong, high or middle or low, the realms of existence, small or great, physical or blissful.

[14:41]

Be careful or follow-up or order to seek or order to seek and be. Let it not want to seek another, nor if it's fine and sitting in any state. But when I think we're working through the British arm to another, he let us all know that that's the risk of our life. White, snow, red, the decks are on page dials. I hope you're the boundless mind. I just want to share it all with you things. You'll see love over the entire world of love. You know, all around you have made it. I don't know what I'm saying. It's a good deal. [...] Thank you. So I would

[15:56]

this vision of suffusing love over the entire world above, below, and all around without limit, so let one cultivate an infinite good will toward the whole world. This is the vision that raises my motor whenever I think of it. And so I like to promote it as widely as I can. It's such a great vision, suffusing love over the entire world, above, below, and all around without limit. So let one cultivate an infinite goodwill toward the whole world. Doesn't that make your heart sing? Doesn't that call to you as a way to live your life keep working on developing that goodwill toward the whole world.

[17:10]

To not get caught up in ill will when it arises but to take care of it and see what's causing it and try to clear it up. Not indulge in it. You know, we harm ourselves when we if we feed our anger, we cause harm to ourselves. And it makes it unpleasant for everyone to be with us. So I think it's also very important that we notice when, if anger or ill will arises, that we do our very best not to feed it. there's this old Native American teaching that a young boy goes to his grandmother and says, grandmother, grandmother, I had a dream last night and there were these two

[18:32]

It was these two wolves and they were fighting and, well, it was terrible. And she said, yes, son, the grandson, that happens sometime. But he says, but grandmother, who will win? And she said, the one that you feed. So if you don't feed your anger, it will lose its energy and you won't find yourself acting out on it. You won't find yourself making a much bigger mess. When thoughts and feelings of ill will arise, to not feed them is... the most helpful thing. And it's possible.

[19:38]

I recall having during a session at Green Village some years ago now, I was kind of fixated on something that I wanted and I didn't have and I thought I needed it. And I just was going round and round about it. And it was just making me miserable. And so I decided I'm not going to get on that thought train. It takes me to hell. And somehow that repetitive thought kept coming up, but I kept deliberately not going there with I'm the boss of this brain and I'm not going to do this.

[20:40]

And by the end of the sensheen I had dropped the whole issue that I was being so involved in. And so I found that you can do that. You can, even if you've got an unwholesome train of thought, you can stop the train and get off. You don't have to get on it. And that was a great teaching for me. I was the boss of whether I got on that train or not. And so I was very happy to... find out that I could have some, I was not the innocent bystander being upset by these words. I was driving the thought and I had the power not to.

[21:48]

And when I found that, that was indeed the case. I have worked in that way with thoughts that lead to misery. And it works. You have to be determined. You get these thoughts and you hang on to them. You identify with them. You think they're who you are. But they're only who you are if you make them so. So I don't have a lot new to talk about. This loving kindness has sort of taken over as the main driver of my intentions at this point in my life. I'm not capable of doing a heck of a lot more, but I can sure love people. That's quite doable and rather pleasant as well.

[22:54]

So I highly recommend it. And I think that chanting the loving-kindness meditation from time to time until it's part of who you are so that you can call it up anytime you want to, I would highly recommend as well just to be in that realm of loving-kindness meditation and let it grow and flourish. And it was helpful to me to realize that although I never heard Suzuki Roshi use the word loving kindness, I had a lot of experience from just being with him

[23:58]

And that's how he was. So I could easily decide, oh, it wasn't that he didn't teach loving kindness, he just didn't call it that, he just did it. And I can do that too. So I don't know, I'm sort of a... I've only got one string to my fiddle now. And it seems to be that one. So does anybody have any questions or comments they want to bring up? Yes. I have a comment. I think it's an example that just so touched me about you. I think how you've internalized this. Yesterday I canted the Zen, so I don't love the Zen. So the habits of the Zen are still... been in the ministry. And I was a few units early for when the office opened.

[25:01]

And you were standing there and you really noticed me. You didn't need to notice me. I was just standing there. You really looked at me and you wondered what I wanted and how you could help. And you pulled this out and pointed me to the chair. And that seems, may seem small to people, but it was so kind. It was so loving and really notice. And it's not about me, but it's an example of noticing you and reaching out in such a long time. Thank you very much. I hope that all of us at Zen Center can be that way when a stranger is in the door. That we can pay some attention and make them feel welcome. Yes. On my way here, I went on a walk from the castle over here.

[26:02]

I was there last night, and on my way here, I was noticing everything. People sleeping on the street and lots of beer bottles, and I picked up a bunch of trash. And it reminded me of my grandkids. It's the endowment that it would take us hours to get to the car. I was here and it would take us two hours to get to the car because every single person wanted to talk to her and she gave them every minute that they wanted. A long time ago I had a doctor at Kaiser, and a lot of you are probably familiar with Kaiser, the time constraints.

[27:04]

This guy had been able to make one minute through like 10 minutes in the very best possible way. He just had that quality of listening. Time expanded. There was room for me to ask any necessary question, get the necessary answers. That's great. My regret is that it didn't occur to me until after the guy retired to ask him if he had practice of some sort. Because when he wanted to retire, I asked him to do, he took me to his office. It was full of pictures of India and Nepal. Those were in the days for digital cameras. My only regret is that he, I didn't think to ask him if he had a practice, even something was leaking out of it. Well, I would say to take this as an example, if you see someone who is in the world in a way that you really appreciate, to watch them more closely and emulate them.

[28:16]

If you appreciate their being that way, you can see that other people appreciate your being that way. So to, I mean, yeah, wanting to be like Suzuki Roishi, of course, it's been a big thing in my life, and I'm not Suzuki Roishi by a long shot, but he showed me the direction I wanted to go. I mean, in fact, those of you who know my way-seeking mind talk know that I came to practice because a friend of mine died very suddenly and she was my age and I realized, oh, I'm gonna die. And it was the first time my own mortality was very clear to me. And the next thing that came up, and I'm so grateful for this, is the question, well, how do you live if you know you're gonna die?

[29:23]

And when I met Suzuki Roshi, I felt like that's it. That's how I want to live. That looks like a good way to live if you're going to die. And you are going to die. That's the thing, you know. So many of us don't really realize that. There's a Polly chant that I like a lot that says, All things are impermanent. They arise and they pass away. To live in harmony with this truth brings great happiness. So all things are impermanent and that includes, of course, us. So how can that be not a burden but a joy? Let's see what happens next. Yes?

[30:28]

Are there loving kindness to situations of injustice or situations that feel unsafe? Well, I think that if you're practicing from a point of loving kindness, you're going to find injustice to be a very difficult thing and you're going to have to work to clear it up. You're going to have to work for justice. But in a peaceful way. Because... One of the things that led me to practice was, I came to practice during the Vietnamese War, was I heard myself saying, and very self-righteously, I'm fighting for peace. What? Isn't that an oxymoron? But that was the way I had been working toward peace and justice was I'm fighting for it, you know.

[31:37]

And it occurs to me that doesn't lead to peace and justice. That leads to more fighting. So finding how to work for peace and justice in a peaceful way seems to me to be the way to go. Does that respond to you? First of all, I want to thank you, Myers, for this meditation. I realized maybe for myself that this is something that I need and I have to practice. I agree with... I feel that all the lines in this paper are important. There was one line that for me stood out. Maybe you could help me with it.

[32:38]

The line deals with the senses. And... Excuse me? Free from sense, appetites was the line. So my question to you is... We are all Buddhists. We are all humans. We're all in the world. And the world is important. The senses are important. So how do we not attach to the senses and yet to appreciate it? And the senses are important for us as humans. How do we free ourselves? Well, that's the $64,000 question. Zazen helps. I'll just put it that way. The problem with senses, with...

[33:53]

getting attached to sense appetites is that you can become so attached that you cause harm. So I think you have to look at that reminds me of another story I want to tell about Tsukiroshi and me but um I was thinking of what I'm addicted to or was addicted well I guess if you're addicted you're always addicted I haven't touched it for 30 years now but I smoked cigarettes for 25 years and um um I was the head of the lunch serving crew for a sesshin that was going on.

[35:03]

A sesshin or a one-day sitting, I can't remember now. And I was bringing down the offering tray for lunch in the zendo. And Suzuki Roshi was coming downstairs to go to the zendo for noon service and lunch. And this was a long time ago, you have to understand. Things were a little different than they are now. But I was going down the stairs, holding the offering tray in one hand and smoking a cigarette in the other. And sneaking in a couple of puffs on my cigarette. And Suzuki Roshi saw me and he didn't go, he looked at me and he said.

[36:08]

That's all he did. He just had this, what do these Americans do next? But he just waggled his finger and shook his head and went on downstairs. I'll never forget it, you know. So sometimes sense appetites are a good thing, but, you know, to enjoy food when you're hungry and stuff like that. But sometimes we're most attached to the things that are probably better if we didn't indulge them. But, you know, I think we can enjoy what we receive through our sense organs, but we don't have to be attached to it.

[37:16]

And so finding where that difference is, I think, is the big... is what... what you need to work on. I don't know if that's helpful, but that's what comes up. Yes? I have a question about feelings. So in my experience with feelings, sometimes when you first notice them, it's like a cup that's spilling over. And the more that I notice them, it's like the cup is getting less and less full. And then sometimes when I think that the doctors had a deep day of sports, and I'm wondering, I guess I'm not wondering if feelings ever go away, but just kind of that phenomenon of seeing them and having them have less of a feeling, but then, is there always there? I'm just curious about that. Well, I think the first thing is that

[38:20]

We need to take responsibility for our own feelings and not sort of make up some story that they're just visited on us poor innocent people. For us, I don't know where they came from. I don't have anything to do with them. I do think that when big feelings come up, as we work with them and look at them, we can see what we're contributing to... making them more or less noisy in our mind and see where we can not feed them, you know, or see if we see what we're doing to feed them, then back off from that. I hope that's all. You know, I think it's time for us probably to go to the, anybody else that wants to talk, probably time for us to go to the discussion group rather than keep everybody here.

[39:32]

What do you think? You ready to go? Yes? This is, I'm talking about attachment, which is such an important, SUBJECT IN TEACHING AND PRACTICE, TRYING TO GET UNATTACHED, AND TALKING ABOUT LIFE. AND I'M VERY ATTACHED TO MY LIFE. IT'S, I THINK, AND YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE TEACHING, YOU KNOW, WITH THE CHANN, YOU KNOW, BE AWARE THAT THE LIFE WILL END, IT'S GOING TO END, AND WE I had, well, Steve, Yogi and Steve Stupin, died and taught about how to die. But where do you let go from?

[40:38]

Well, my only experience of being intimately involved with someone dying is Lou. And... Well, my mother, too. And his mother, too, actually. When it came to the end, I mean, Lou's mother was ill, and she waited until he got there. He got there, and she said, Oh, Lou, good son, don't worry. This is the easiest thing I've ever done, and she died. And my mother also was in the hospital with a heart attack, and she waited until the last grandchild got there to say goodbye. And she said, oh, thank you for coming, Norco. Goodbye. And died. And Lou made it clear to me that...

[41:46]

at the point in which he died, is that he was ready to go, and could he please have permission for me to go? I mean, that was the essence of the exchange in the room. So I don't know, I'll find out when I get there. But apparently, I mean, we know You know, there's an exchange somewhere that's sort of famous about, sir, of all the miraculous things you've seen, what is the most remarkable? And he said that men seeing all around them die, yet believes that a man seeing all around him die, yet believes that he will not. That's the first thing, is to accept the fact that we all... We all are impermanent. And that's just the way it is.

[42:50]

And there's no way we're going to change that. And as Suzuki Roshi said when he was teaching, it would be a big problem for us if we had an endless life, you know, actually. Things wear out. Um... So I don't know where that letting go comes from, but it does happen because we see it happen quite regularly. I don't know if you've ever spent any time volunteering at hospice, but that kind of work can be helpful for you if you're having some problem with impermanence. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma.

[43:51]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[44:00]

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