This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. It's with great pleasure that I'd like to introduce tonight's speaker, Johanna Okamura Roshi. He founded the Sanchin Zen community in Bloomington, Indiana, where he lives with his family. Okamura Roshi was born in Japan and studied at Komazawa University in Tokyo. He received Dharma transmission from the late Koshio Uchiyama Roshi, one of the foremost Zen masters of the 20th century. Shohaku Roshi has taught and practiced extensively in both the US and Japan, and is a prolific translator of works by Dogen and Uchiyama Roshi.

[01:01]

He served as director of the Soto Zen International Center in San Francisco for 13 years, and during part of that time he lived here with us at City Center. He's one of the foremost teachers on Dogen's practice and philosophy, and most recently, He published the book ,, which many of us find out for. Welcome. Good evening, everyone. I was introduced.

[02:03]

I lived in this building for about three years, from 1990 to 2003. So I came back home. I'm really happy to be here to see you. This evening I'm going to talk on one book that will be published sometime in the fall this year. The title of this book is The Zen Teaching of Homeless Kodo. Homeless Kodo refers to Kodo Sawaki Yoshi. was the teacher of my teacher, Hosho Chanakoshi. Kodosawa Piroshi was one of the most important and influential Japanese soto Zen master in the 20th century.

[03:21]

He was called homeless because he didn't have his own temple or monastery. He was a professor of Komagawa University, ,, but he was almost traveling all over in Japan. Whenever he was invited, in a monastery, or tenures, or a green house, in prisons. He practiced in that way for about 50 years, until he became 83. He had problems with his legs, so he couldn't walk anymore. Until then, he traveled by himself. He didn't want to travel with his athlete.

[04:27]

Also, he never wrote any book. He wrote nothing by himself. But he gave many lectures. And many of his lectures were prescribed and published. There is a collection of his talks. It has 19 volumes. quite a big collection. One of the priests who worked on editing that collection of fabulous teachings was working at a Buddhist publisher in Japan. As the editor, he sometimes needed contact with Sao Kiyoshi, but It was very difficult for him to find .

[05:28]

You know, at that time, not many people in Japan had telephones. So he tried to telephone some tentacles or other places he, you know, to visit. Often, when he called ,, he said, please send. She's already dead. And she tried to call her to the next temple. We are expecting her, but she's not yet. So she was already collaborating in the United States in that place for 15 years. So for ,, one of the most important who made teaching and practice of just sitting available to the or especially who are not connected with monastic system.

[06:50]

why he was important. And also, he was famous for his very sharp-witted expression, using very Japanese without using many of the Buddhist technical terms. So his talk was very down to us. Anyway, that was The reason why Sawaki Yoshi was called homeless. In Japanese, . Anyway, so Sawaki Yoshi is my teacher, Uchiha Narumoshi's teacher. And it was an example, like, for example, who was a teacher. of one of the teachers, ,, and another person, ,, who was the teacher of .

[08:01]

Those three masters practiced together. So their teacher called named ,, ,, ,, . So from that time, in the early 20s, the lineage, and the lineage are connected. So they are not in Japan. But today, in the West, many people are following those three teachers teaching practice. Anyway, when Sao Kiroshi died in 1965, I was 17 years old.

[09:08]

I was a high school student. But in that year, Uchiyama Roshi published his first book And I had a chance to read his book. And even though I knew nothing about religion over then, somehow I wanted to live like this person. And I have desire to become his disciple. And me and a friend of mine wanted to visit at night. And then there was a small temple there, which I wanted to do. To do the ship. When I was 17. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I couldn't go.

[10:08]

If I went there, at that time, probably I thought that there's not something for me. So in a sense, I was fortunate I couldn't go. But at the same time, because I couldn't go, I lost the chance to meet Sardos. Because Sardos, that was in the autumn, and Sardos passed away in December. In December 21st. Anyway, right after Sardos died, Uchiha Maboshi selected many books, many short things, and wrote short newspaper articles. And the title of the article sitting in the newspaper was Yadana Shikoto, Yadana Shikoto-san, Yadana Shikoto-san.

[11:12]

And Hoku means . Hoku is used as a translation of my famous Buddhist scripture in . Darmapada means . So and wrote some comments. aspire to make for modern people. So even though it's there, . And yet, it's the context of teachings for modern people. Well, the book was translated into English a few times.

[12:21]

And before I came to this country, in 1990, I made this book, The Teaching of Pompressor. And this had been published from Zeppelin Soto School. as a free teaching material. So some of you might . But unfortunately, this book was written out of print a few years ago. And also, next year, 2015, will be So I decided to make a new translation of this book.

[13:22]

And I worked with one of my disciples who used to practice here. My name is . She worked with me from the beginning, and she edited So I really appreciate hard work. Anyway, that is about this book. This time, I'd like to talk about one section of this book. This is a kind of advertisement. Let me read one section. This is the section 11. Between the shawaki, lochis, and lochis sayings, and the generous comment.

[14:28]

And in this version, I wrote my own comment or explanation, because there expression are very down to a class and using proper Japanese. It's very understandable for Japanese people, but for the Western leaders who are not familiar with Japanese proper expression and Japanese culture and history, it might be helpful to have some explanation. That's why I made my own explanation. And my comments are as long as they are the same. So this new version will be twice as long. So it might be painful for you to understand what we are talking about.

[15:31]

Because they don't use so many Buddhist technical terms, sometimes for Western people. What they are talking about. So in a sense, I try to translate the colloquial expression into Buddhist parents, Buddhist pontific. Anyway, when I I've been invited to give a talk today. I will tell you that the theme of this practice is something like waking up in the midst of our life. So I tried to choose something to connect with this theme when we are

[16:33]

of our life. When we wake up, I think we are sleeping. If we don't sleep, or if we are in a dream, we don't need to wake up. So when we say we wake up, we need to wake up, I think there's something in our life, something that makes us sleep. So instead of talking about what we are waiting to, but probably more helpful for us, why we sleep in our life? What is the problem? And the section I'm going to read is about our problem. especially in modern times.

[17:35]

You know, of course, in the traditional Buddhist teachings, there are some obstacles. The teaching about the obstacles that prevent us being awake. And in the case, in the record of Dogen Senji's conversation with his teacher, And in my translation, obstacle is translated as a covering, something cover our mind and disturb us not to our mind, not to function with. And those five are, first one is Greek, really desire.

[18:49]

And second is . Then we ignore something we don't like. We become angry. But for a while, anger comes down. But still, something inevitable stays in our mind. That is called hate, or hate, or dislikeness. Those two anger and hatred are considered as well. Greek is our design when we encounter it gives us some pleasure or present sensation. I want to be with this thing and if possible I want to make this my position and when I get something I want to get more it's continuous.

[19:57]

No it We want to get more and more like a hungry roast. And the second one is something against, something give us unpleasant sensation. I don't like this, but I hate that. Even though I don't like this, so I want to stay away with this thing. Somehow they come without agreement. from me, from . You know, this makes our life running after something we want or escaping from something we don't want. This constant running after something or from something makes our life so sad.

[20:59]

We are always lucky. And sometimes we feel we are successful. And we feel like we are heavenly beings. Our desires completely, but such condition doesn't last forever. Next moment, we might go down to the head. So in traditional Buddhist teaching, transmigration within samsara is considered from past lifetime to present lifetime, and from present lifetime to future lifetime. But even if you have some difficulty to believe in this debate, we can see transmigration within samsara within samsara. that time. You know, even moment by moment, our condition is changing.

[22:07]

So sometimes we feel like we are heavenly youth. Next time, we feel like a henry at us. Or sometimes we feel like a hungry ghost. We want to get something. And once we get that thing, we get more, more input, more, better things. And there's no help. And sometimes we feel very much. Or fighting spirit. Fighting spirit means we always have some element. And we see they are bad people. We are good. The meaning of our life is to aim at those things. Then this will become a better place. If we have such a mentality, then we are getting .

[23:09]

We are always changing. Those are . First, two obstacles. The third is destruction. Our mind goes around. No stability. We have so many different ideas, and going this way and that way. And we almost always have some limit. So we don't find stability in that one. The fourth is our values. Our mind doesn't work well. We don't have energy. These two, destruction, darkness and destruction, cause there are two obstacles in our event.

[24:14]

Sometimes our mind is too lazy. But sometimes we don't have energy to keep in this upright posture. And those are four. And the final one is doubt. In this case, doubt about the teaching of .. So we need to do something good. I can't expect anything good. So we try not to do good things, or we try not to avoid worse of food. Those are called what was done by obstacles. And New Jersey's engine added one more obstacle. That was .

[25:18]

And he called these five or six obstacles. And in their conversation, he just said, in our Zen, just sitting, ,, we are free from those six obstacles. So this very important teaching in our Zen practice. There are many other examples or set of obstacles that we need to go through or go beyond. But this is kind of obstacles. Those are, in a sense, are individual problems in our mind. that disturb us not to see things clear.

[26:22]

And our lives become distorted and often go astray. Maksawaki mentioned some very important obstacles we have in this modern The title of this section is Group Stupid. Group Stupid. Group Stupid is relevant today. Today is 50 years ago, and this was written. But I think it's still relevant today, 50 years later now. So there is the same. When people are alone, they are not so bad.

[27:29]

However, when a group opens, paralysis occurs. People become totally foolish and cannot distinguish good from bad. Their minds are numbed by the group because of their desire to belong and even to lose themselves. Some pay membership fees. Others work on advertising to attract people and intoxicate them for some political, spiritual, I keep some distance from society, not to escape, but to avoid this kind of paralysis.

[28:30]

To practice Zazen is to become free of this blue spirit. Stupidity, I'm not sure. Stupidity is a good English translation or not. But this is a translation of some very correct expression. Group, he used English as group. Group and vocab. If you know Japanese language, you know this word bokeh. Bokeh is a noun, and bokeh is a verb. And bokeh is friendly. Our mind doesn't work well because of aging. I don't know.

[29:37]

beginning of my life. So I always regret something or anything. So it's difficult to remember something new. I'm still in the beginning. But this condition can be more and more. Anyway, that is the first meaning. And it's not necessarily because of age. But because of some internal or external obstacles, our mind doesn't work well. Not necessarily slow, but sometimes, you know, become very active. But active in a long direction. Anyway, that did the same as, you know, obstacles, those five obstacles I talked to.

[30:39]

And the sound meaning of this bokeh is like to be out of focus. The image in the photo is not clear. When in such a photo, or to be out of focus if this photo is complete. That means when our mind doesn't function normally or in a wholesome way, somehow the object, the things we encounter in our day-to-day lives, becomes out of focus. or distorted.

[31:40]

And between this, you know, abstracted mind and distorted, you know, view or object or sensations, perceptions, we create some strange story and do something very strange and wholesome. So both ourselves is inside of ourselves, and the way we view things, and how we act, interact with those distorted views. You know, our life becomes totally confused. And the fact which Sawaki Roshi is saying here is, in this modern society, By forming a group and becoming a member of the group, sometimes we stop thinking.

[32:47]

And we just follow how people think or how the leaders of this group kind of teach. Somehow we stop thinking and this is the best thing to do. not only political or spiritual things, but as a hobby, like music or dancing or many other movies, all those things can create this group stupidity. And in the traditional Buddhism, there is never such a problem or abstract is mentioned but so this is very kind of a new problem for us and Saki Roshi pointed out and Uchema Roshi said this is very important so let me read Uchema Roshi's comment on this saying by Saki Roshi

[34:04]

In Buddhism, the obstacle that causes suffering in our lives is called delusive desire. In Sanskrit, Kuresha, and in Japanese, Bonno, which desire is considered the worst hindrance, has differed depending on time and place. In ancient India, people thought the most troublesome obstacle for practitioners was sexual desire. They made strong efforts to control such desires. Later, in Shobo Genzo Gyoji, Dogenzenji said, The desire for fame is worse than violating the precepts.

[35:14]

He considered pursuing fame and profit the greatest hindrance to practice, probably because in his time, monks in Nara and on Mount Koya and Mount Hei competed with each other for wealth and renown. Sexual greed and desire for fame and profit are all obstacles that should be renounced by practitioners of the Buddha Way. When Sawaki Roshi coined the expression group stupidity, he was speaking of hindrances not only for Buddhist practitioners, but for everyone in this modern age.

[36:17]

Because of this, Buddhist teaching resonates beyond the circle of the Buddhist community and gains relevance for our contemporary society. Today, people live relying on groups and organizations, drifting along in them like floating weeds without roots. Buddhism can help people awaken from the haze of group stupidity and open the clear eyes of the self. This is Uchiyama Roshi's comment on Sawaki Roshi's sayings about guru of stupidity. This was, as I said, this was written about 50 years ago.

[37:21]

I was a high school student and at the time I had many questions about life, especially the way of life in Japanese society at that time. You know, from my parents and teachers and from entire Japanese society, we were always taught to work hard and study hard and go to enter good schools. and study hard again, and get a good job, work hard again, and make money. Then you can buy, you know, luxurious houses, cars, and so on. And I thought that was what, you know, I was expecting in this society.

[38:29]

And I couldn't find any meaning to live in that way. To me, at that time, the entire Japanese society looks like a money-making machine. And the school is a factory to produce the part of that machine. So if we become a good part, we may go to a good place. part of the money-making machine. But sooner or later, you know, younger, better people came and we were depressed. I couldn't find any meaning to live in that way. So I wanted to escape from that money-making machine. Now, that was 1960s. And I think many young American people had the same question.

[39:32]

So we had a kind of a similar situation and similar way of looking for something new. And that was when I read Ujjamurashi's book, probably that was why I was attracted to his way of life. Until I found this teaching and practice, I read many books in the library at high school. And one of the books I read was written by, I think, American sociologist. And the title of the book was Organization Man. Maybe you don't know anymore.

[40:34]

It's 50 years ago. And in that book, this person, this person means William White, wrote about this organization man. It said, an organization man is an employee, especially of a large corporation who was adapted so completely to what is expected in attitude, ideas, behavior, et cetera, by the corporation as to have lost a sense of personal identity or independence. I read this when I was 17 years old, and this was exactly what was happening in Japan. And a few years later, I read this book, Teaching by Sawaki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi, and I really felt this was what I was looking for.

[41:49]

That was why I became Uchiyama Roshi's disciples and started to practice and walk this path. And I think 50 years later, even today, I think we have the same problem. And this is one of the most important things we need to wake up from. You know, we don't think this is a dream. We think this is a reality in our modern age or modern society. That is a problem. You know, within a dream, dreams can be, it looks like a reality. So once we know, we see this is a dream, then we can find a way to get out or to wake up. But... If as far as we think this is a real thing, this is the reality, then we don't see that we are dreaming.

[42:56]

And in my case, this Zazen practice is really helpful since I was 17 years old to keep awake even my personal way of viewing things and make evaluation. I'm always, not me, but my Zazen practice always tell me this might be a fiction. So I have been trying to let it go and try to see and live in the real reality. Anyway, this is one of the sections of this book, The Zen Teaching of Homeless Kodo. It will be published soon, so please try to read this.

[43:58]

This is what I want to say today. Any questions or comments? Please. Thank you, sir. I just have a question. Okay. That is a very important question to me after I came to this country. I was born, educated, and trained as a Buddhist priest. in Japanese tradition. But when I came to this country, I was 26. And the way I was trained didn't work.

[45:03]

So I have to be very kind of flexible and try to follow American people's way of thinking and doing things. But I didn't want to lose my identity as a Japanese Buddhist. So I tried to become free from both sides. And it's a very difficult thing. You know, if I cling to this side or that side, in my case, you know, American ways or Japanese ways, either I think I feel more, how can I say... safe or stable but try to be free both sides I have to always examine myself whether is this too much American or too much Japanese so I think in the same way it's important to try to find a middle way of course if you live together with other people

[46:18]

family or at work somehow you have to be harmonious with people in your community so you cannot ignore the fact you are expected in the family or in the company if you work for a company we have to study and try to accept it and yet if we did this too much, then we lost ourselves. So we need to try to find a middle way. And there is no such fixed middle way. Middle way is always moving. So I think the important point is to keep awakening. Whether this is too much this side or too much that side. And in order to just keep awakening, You know, this sitting practice and letting go of our idea, our thought, is really helpful to me.

[47:28]

So I have no fixed answer to your question. But my answer is, you need to find your own way. Okay? Okay, anything else? Please. That's another good question. Each sangha, or even, for example, sort of the community as, you know, one big institutions, it's really difficult to keep ourselves flexible, especially in Japan.

[48:29]

Japanese Sotozen tradition has been existing for 800 years from the time of Dogen, and this Sotozen community has a collection of 15,000 temples and 20,000 priests and 800 years of history, it's really difficult to be fresh. It's really like a huge tree. It's very difficult to keep fresh life. Everything is fixed. And if... someone against that tradition, then only one possibility is to leave. And that is not healthy. So I think important point is to, how can I say, to keep it young and fresh.

[49:38]

And to do so in my experience and idea, to keep the sangha small. is helpful when it becomes a big institute. It's really difficult to be flexible. That's why Antaiji was a small temple, and after I left Antaiji and come to this country, I tried to keep my Sangha small. I'm not sure this is a good answer to you. No. I think each one of the Sangha members needs to, how can I say, fresh, vivid, and flexible. I'm sorry, this is not a good answer.

[50:40]

Please. I'm sorry, could you say it again? I didn't hear. I think I was successful until later. Until later means before I established San Shinji. I own nothing, and only people who want to come study and practice just come. But once I have a temple, I have to keep this alive as an organization. Even though San Shinji is a tiny temple in Indiana, still I have to take care of it.

[51:46]

And to do so, I have to study how non-profit religious corporation can function. But to me, this is a good practice. So in a sense, after 30 or 40 years, I returned to that machine. But I think what I'm doing now is not to support that machine, but introduce this practice for awakening from that machine within the machine. So I think this is a good work. Okay, please. Why did you choose Bloomington? You don't like sunny California? It was really good. I liked San Francisco.

[52:50]

But I felt in California there are already enough Zen teachers. And I knew in Indiana there's no Zen center at all. So I didn't want to compete with Americans and teachers. So I escaped. I mean, not... not simply escaped, but my teacher, Uchi Amoroshi, always encouraged us to be a pioneer and go frontier. So when I was working for fundraising to establish that small temple, St. Francis Kosen Center was very generous. They allowed us using their mailing list, And if my memory is correct, there are 6,000 people in that mailing list.

[53:57]

And we couldn't afford to send 6,000 mails. So we asked them to only use the people's mailing list in the Bay Area and Indiana. And the person who took care of that work said out of 6,000 names, people in Indiana were 16. I was really happy when I heard that. That means Indiana was a real frontier. That is one of the reasons I decided to move to Indiana. How do you distinguish between what is harming and what is stupid?

[55:01]

Again, there's no fixed answer. It's up to this person and other people and the entirety of the community. So there's no fixed way to measure our judgment. And also probably each person has different, you know, limit. Some people might be very sensitive and kind of have a very strong sensitivity about the person's own way or doing things. Okay. Please. or being a pioneer. So what's the difference? Difference between?

[56:04]

Homeless, being homeless, being a pioneer. It seems that one must first give up one's home in order to be a pioneer. So then what's the difference between homelessness in the sense that you've been speaking and being a pioneer? I think often pioneers are homeless. I don't think these two are contradicted. You know, in order to come to this country, I left Japan. That was my home. So at that time, I became homeless in a sense. And to be a pioneer and establish In my case, Zen Buddhist temple, I don't think is to create my home. I don't think the temple is my home.

[57:07]

That's why I'm still traveling. Now this is my home. Actually, in the very first section of this book, Zen teaching of Homeless Kodo, Sawaki Roshi said about his nickname, nickname Homeless, and he said, you know, people call me homeless because I don't have a temple or monastery, but he said, fundamentally, all human beings are homeless. If we think we have fixed home, that is a great mistake. So probably we are all homeless. Well, it is the answer to your question. Okay. Okay. Please.

[58:14]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's in sugar. Hmm? Things do not hinder one another just as moments do not hinder one another? Hinder one another. Things do not hinder one another just as moments do not hinder one another? I don't remember that particular sentence. Okay. I was curious about you talking about the hindrances and I was curious about what your thoughts might be on that. Do you remember which? Maybe you can email me your question. Okay, please. You mentioned this was written 50 years ago and today.

[59:17]

Is there anything about this stupidity that is different now? Is it worse, better, different in some way than it might have been? I'm not sure if it better will work. But to me, it seems like not only certain big companies or big groups or institutions. To me, this entire human society becomes one corporation. So in a sense, the group in the group becomes larger and larger. This becomes one. One society looks like, you know, when I was a high school student, I only think Japanese society is a money-making machine.

[60:24]

But it seems the entire human world is one money-making machine. So we have to be careful about it. Please. Earlier, you spoke about waking up. And I wondered what your practice is in the moments when you realize that you're asleep. Because there are a lot of different practices that one can use for waking up in the moment. What is your practice? About waking up? My main practice has been sitting and letting go of my thought, or opening the hand of thought. But, for example, now I'm talking to people about certain techniques, and tonight I talk about this concept, group stupidity.

[61:38]

I cannot let go of thought. I have to grasp. So, somehow, My practice is, you know, letting go is like a total gear. When we drive a car, put a gear into neutral. Then the engine is still moving, but car doesn't move. In my practice, that is like sitting in the window. But when I do something, in this case, when I'm talking to people, I have to see people's face. if they are happy about my talk. If not, then I have to make sure. So, how can I say? They cut moment by moment by seeing, by checking or examining how I'm doing and how other people are doing. So, this is another way

[62:42]

I think practice of making up. So not only one practice, but in each moment and each situation, we need to put the gear into semi. And you saw telling me to drive myself and also my life. So in a sense, everything I do is my practice. Does it make sense? Thank you. Well, okay, one more question, please. You talked about how it's a bigger world, I guess, with groups to complete. Is that in talk about the internets? And how can you lighten people up more? Is it possible to have the same enlightenment through the internets as in person, as a physical person?

[63:44]

I'm not sure. This is kind of a very new challenge for all of us. We don't really understand what we are doing right now. At least I don't know what we are doing. That means where we are going. What is the direction? In this lifetime, I took a vow not to use cell phone. And my wife are not happy. You know, to me, you know, cell phone is like a leash. Sometimes I like disconnected. And, you know, in a sense that we, all of us, to think we need to be connected in some way and using, you know, computers or cell phones or all that kind of medias.

[64:53]

It might be that is stupid. Probably we don't need to use them. So we have to check one by one. Maybe this is not answer to your question. But I really don't know. I'm really kind of a, how can I say, not so up-to-date person. That's one of the reasons I moved to a small town in Midwest. I don't want to be in a, how can I say, front-run. So younger people need to I'm sorry, please. This is the last one.

[65:56]

That's the only thing I understand. My question is about Buddhism in general. And some people who look at Buddhism and who look at the Buddhist path the monastic life. I've had a lot of conversations where people look at that and they say that it is a rejection of life, rejecting society. Buddhism. Buddhism. So I was just curious to hear your thoughts about how you would respond to that. Do some people still think that Buddhism is kind of an escapism or a negatism? I guess so, yeah. Good? Wow. I'm curious why don't people think in that way. You know, bodhisattva practice is always, you know, working together with our being. You cannot escape.

[66:59]

Actually, escaping is part of, you know, working with other people or being. Well, I don't think that is true. Thank you very much for listening. I'm really happy to be here with you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Domo.

[67:47]

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