So we're talking about the Blue Cliff Records story number four. Mango introduces it by saying, blue sky, bright sunshine, how to tell east and west, our, H-O-U-R, our season, circumstance, The medicine depends on the illness. To let go or hold on, which is right? Please consider the following story. The story you know about Tok-san coming to visit Isan's great monastery. The story is often superficially taken to represent a clash of two ways of teaching. That's how R.D.M. Shaw, in the Blue Cliff Record translation that he did, Heikigan Roku, looks at the story. It's a little confusing from this point of view

[01:36]

if you want to look at it in this way. Because the later controversy in which some people favored a more dramatic way and some people favored a more quietistic way in some historical situations in China and Japan, identified Soto as more quiet, distant, quietness-dependent, Rinzai as more dramatic, energetic. But at this time, this is quite close to the Sixth Patriarch, all these guys lived in the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries that I've been talking about, Such a distinction wasn't so clear, and it seems that the distinction was made later, by later generations. Most of them. Because Toksan is our lineage and Isan is

[03:00]

Rinzai lineage. Actually, we have both lineages through Dogen, but some aspects of Japanese Soto school emphasize quietism for a long time. Anyway, Say again, Gyoshi, you know, is the disciple of the sixth patriarch. And Nanaku, another disciple. From Nanaku comes Baso and Yakujo and Issa. And from... And from... Seigen Gyoshi comes from Sekito, who did the Sandokai. And from Sekito is Yaksan, Ungan, and Tozan. But in Sekito, Yaksan's Dharma brother is Tenno Dogo. And Tenno Dogo's disciple is Ryutan.

[04:23]

And Ryutan's disciple is Tokusan. And Tokusan's disciple is Setpo and Ganto. And Setpo's disciple is Unmon. So this is very famous lineage. And Unmon's fourth great-grandson, great-grand disciple, great-great-great-great-grand disciple is Sekito, who did the Blue Cliff, not Sekito. Is that right? Ingo and... Setsho. Setsho. Setsho who did the Blue Cliff Records with Ingo. So Bright Blue sky, bright sunshine, east. How to tell east and west? Bright sky and blue sunshine means when the sun is up at noon, how can you tell east and west? And

[05:49]

East and West, you remember, when Togtsan came to Issan's temple, he went from East to West and West to East and said, nothing, nothing. Now, why would he go from East to West and West to East? He's not, you can't view It is an encounter between Issan, who is head of a large temple, and many traditional rituals and practice, and Issan and Tokusan is quite free, because this going from east to west and west to east is some traditional Zen way. When he goes, at that point, when the story says he went from east to west and west to east, Engo comments, very Zen. He held a whippersnapper up to him, something like that. When Yangshan first came to see Isang,

[07:18]

He came to greet Isan. He was a new monk. Isan said, do you have a teacher? He said, do you have a teacher? But he expressed it, do you have an owner? Do you have an owner? And he said, yes, I have an owner. And Isan said, Who is your owner? And he went from west to east. He walked from west to east. Actually, he probably just walked some direction. I doubt if he had a compass. Figured out but not so difficult because Buddhist temples were generally built on a north-south east-west axis which was always Almost always the same so he would know Roughly, so he did something, you know, which the stories tell is going from west to east So He in this kind of story

[08:39]

West means, you know, India, Buddhism came from India, so West means emptiness or imperturbability or great potential, something like that. And East means activity or great function coming, Bodhidharma coming from the West to the East. So West and East have this kind of meaning in Zen. So he comes in and says, he comes, he walks from East to West, West to East and says, nothing, nothing, and leaves. And Setsho says, seen right through. If you remember from a while ago, we talked quite a bit about Tozan, Ryokai, visiting Isan and asking him about the teaching of inanimate objects. Do you remember that story?

[10:26]

how do inanimate objects preach the Dharma? He tells the story and in that story Tozan is recounting, he said, although you do not hear it, do not hinder that which hears it. So after recounting this story, Tozan says to Isang, a fairly old man. I don't understand this story. Can you explain it to me?" And Tozan, Nisan, says, a suitable hearer is hard to find. It's rare indeed. And Tozan said, say something. So Issan raises his whisk and says, do you understand? And Tozan says, no. And Issan says, the mouth given me by my parents will never, can never explain it to you.

[11:54]

Nissan also, you know, the story is talking about... Buddhist stories, Zen stories are about Zen stories. In Zen, things are about what they're about. So, this is a story about teaching and it's about teaching. Zen teaching is about teaching. So this is some... trying to give you some... ability to understand encounters between people, between teachers, between Zen people or anybody. And not to be fooled. And this story is meant to hook you. It's meant to get you involved in what's going on. And if you can be hooked, you should be hooked. You can struggle with it like a dog with a rag in its mouth. That's quite a good way to practice, actually. If something can hook you, it's useful. Very useful. If nothing can hook you, it's unfortunate. Or you're blind.

[13:27]

I'm not curious or something. So, is Isan hooking Tok-san? Is Tok-san hooking Isan? How does Tok-san hook Isan? How does Isan hook Tok-san? So, he says, do not... He says, our season, circumstance, the medicine depends on the illness, holding on or letting go, which is right. Here he means grasping way or granting way. Grasping way is the way of emptiness. Granting way, everything is okay. Grasping is to stick to your strict practice. So in this story, Tuksan looks like grasping way and Isan looks like granting way. But in your own practice, you know, are you practicing which way? When your legs hurt, do you move or not? Which is grasping way and which is granting way? This is Buddha. This is not Buddha.

[14:52]

How in your meditation do you stick to counting your breathing? Are you always concentrating? Or do you give up concentrating and have no observer at all? Just no observer and anything happens. Anything happens. Which is grasping way and granting way? How do we make this kind of distinction? When do we make this kind of distinction? When is it? Which way is better to teach someone? Which way is better for yourself and which way is better to teach someone? When someone comes to you, do you say, no, this is not Buddha. You are no good. Shape up. Or do you say, yes, very good. You're a wonderful person. Please continue what you're doing. Which way do you take? Which way is Toksan taking and which way is Isan taking? And why, you know, is this story? Do you hold on or let go? Which is the right medicine in this circumstance? Isan. Isan's disciple Gyozan, or Yangshan,

[16:29]

named for another mountain, came to Isan and said, If a million things come to you, what will you do? If a million things come to you, what do you do? Cut everything off? Greet everything? What do you do? Isan said, A yellow thing is not green. A long thing is not short. Each thing manages its own fate. Why should I bother? One day, one of Tokusan's disciples, Kaku, came to see Tokusan and said, actually I think this man was Tokusan's Jishin, and he said to

[17:45]

Tokusan, the great sages and saints or great sages and patriarchs of Buddhism, where have they gone? You might ask the same question. These great sages or patriarchs of Buddhism, Tokusan and Sekito and Nanaku, etc., Tozan, Dogen, where have they gone? What does it mean to us, you know, sitting in this session? Where have they gone? And Togsang said, I don't know, I don't know. And his Jisha said to him, I was expecting an answer like a running horse and I got an answer like a crawling turtle. And Togsang looked defeated. So the next day, after his bath, Tokson came to his room and Vajisha brought tea. And Tokson patted him and said, How's the koan you were working on yesterday? And Vajisha said, Ah, today your zen is better. And Tokson looked defeated. And you know the story, I think,

[19:19]

We talked about it, about Tokson and Setpo and Ganto and the bulls. Well, it only takes a minute to tell you. It's a rather amusing story. Tokson is quite old at this time, he's maybe 80 years old, and Setpo is about 41, and Ganto is around 35. And Ganto is, you know, it's one of these examples where Ganto and Tokson are rather like one teacher. They're quite good, they understand each other well, and they practice together, you know, for many years. Tokson being the disciple, Ganto being the disciple, and Tokson being the abbot, but actually they are kind of one abbot, maybe, or one teacher, playing different roles. And together they cooperate, and this story is a rather interesting example. Seppo became, of course, one of the greatest Zen masters of all times, and one of Suzuki Roshi's favorites was Baso. Seppu had long struggled with his practice. He lived a very long time. Anyway, Toki-san came down from his abbot's quarters, which is usually monasteries are often built on hillsides, if they're not in cities, mountain monasteries, because land is not for farming.

[20:46]

And usually they put the abbot's house higher up the hill. That's why they have to push the guy. So, Tok-san came down from the abbot's house and entered the main building and was carrying his oyoki, his eating bowl. Seppo said, the bell and drum have not sounded. Where are you going with your eating bowls? And Togsan turned around and went back to his room. So, Seppo went to see Ganto, his good friend, and said, I just spoke to... Togsan just came down with his bowls and I pointed out the bell and drum had not sounded yet. And Ganto said, oh, he's a great teacher, that Toksan, but he has not understood the last word of Zen. The final word of Zen. So this rumor spread throughout the monastery that Ganto had said Toksan didn't understand the final word of Zen. So...

[22:07]

Toksan sent for Ganto and he came to his room. His jishya brought him to the room and in front of his jishya he said, I hear you don't approve of me. And Ganto went over and whispered some secret, one word or two words in Toksan's ear. So, Ganta went down to the main building and said, I told him the last word. Then, the next day, Shura's shooting, Tokson came down and gave a much better than usual tesho, his lecture was much better than usual. And Ganto afterwards clapped his hands and said, see, he's understood the final word of Zen. Except Bo didn't know what was going on.

[23:22]

Toku-san was a strange man, a rather interesting man. One time, a monk came to his door and said, you know, whatever they say in China, to get in the door. And Toku-san said, who is it? And he said, the monk said, a lion cub. So he said, come in. And when he opened the sliding door to come in, took some and leaped on it and grabbed it and threw him on the ground and said, you devil, you, where have you been? So anyway, here's old Isan, you know, sitting in his temple, and Tok-san comes and says nothing, nothing, and leaves, and decides he should come back. Maybe he was too hasty. And he greets Tok-san, to Isan, spreading his bowing flower. And Isan starts to reach for his whisk,

[25:02]

And before he has a chance to really pick it up, he chokes on it. He says, GRRRR! And splits. Now, if Isa and I had criticized him, come off it and have a cup of tea. Don't holler at me. He just accepted it. Is this grasping way or granting way? Is he this mature old Zen teacher? Is he dumbfounded by Tokusan? Or is he Tokusan's teacher, actually? Did Tokusan ever forget Isan? It's time. Oh, dog sign.

[26:35]

What was their motivation? Did they understand each other? It's very difficult to know. Recently, there's been some research on auras. and they try to photograph the auras of people and maybe things. Rather interesting idea. But actually, how we see another person? Maybe a camera can film. Although a camera is designed to film material objects, maybe a camera can record on film, some wider aspect of our body and mind than we usually see, perhaps so. But actually, to perceive the brightness of another person is your own creativity, too. It's something common to two people. It takes two to tango, two to produce an aura. Where can a camera be? How can a camera film

[28:48]

our shared emotion? How can we objectify anything? How can we understand what happened, or if anything happened between Dok-San and I-San? Or is there something that can happen? Most of us think so. We have some idea of something happened, something didn't happen, something can happen, but can something happen? If so, what is it? What is its nature? A while ago I spoke about the sources of our activity. Fine, we have no nature, no predetermined nature. We don't act out of our karma. Nyogen Senzaki said, it just made me think of it. Someone asked him what karma was and he said, leaving the drawers of your desk open when you're looking for something. Anyway.

[30:18]

A while ago I spoke about the sources of your action and from your activity itself and from guidance from others. Because you, by your presence, bring out the best in people, Because you don't discriminate, people will guide you. You can trust them. But you begin by trusting anyway. So, how to have our activity and motivation? One. And how to accept from others? how to accept from Buddhism, how to be guided by, first of all, that which we ourselves are calling forth. We're accepting what comes to us as something we called forth, with familiarity, not with surprise. With readiness, maybe great potentiality is aroused.

[31:47]

and it meets circumstance. Did Tok-San have any other alternatives? How did he choose what he did when he went to Isan's temple? How did Isan decide what to do? Tok-san, you know, was master, he was called King of the Diamond Sutra, or Diamond Joe, or Diamond Tok-san. Because he was quite famous as a young man, like Diamond Jim, He was quite famous as a young man for interpreting the Diamond Sutra. And, you know, after Ryutan blew his candle out, the next day he burned all his commentaries. If he actually did it, it's quite an act, because, you know, they didn't have printed books, you know, exactly.

[33:09]

Some commentary was pretty valuable and rare to have a woodblock print or handwritten version of some sutra or commentary. It would be much more valuable than anything we can imagine now. And he burned it and said, all philosophies are like a hair in the sky. All understandings are like a drop of water in a great ravine." And he burned the Diamond Sutra commentary. Later he came to his son's temple, as you know, and he looks very critical of maybe traditional monastic life, another form of the Diamond Sutra maybe, he thinks.

[34:26]

But by this time, Tokusan is a fairly mature Zen person. So what would he be doing, coming to Hisan's temple? Wasting his time? Challenging Zen masters again? After he blew out, after Yutan blew out his candle? He said, never again will I doubt the word of a great Zen teacher, a great Zen teacher. His son at that time was the most famous Zen teacher in China, I think. Ryu Tan was also very famous. And that's part of the story when he went to see Ryuton. And he said, you're so well known, you're so well known, but I don't see either a dragon or a lake. And Ryuton said, haven't you seen it? You know, various ways to interpret what he said. Well, you are seeing it now in person.

[36:15]

how Engo said how daring Toksan is to stroke the tiger's whiskers. Only a young man, with no more inner contradictions, would dare to do it. Or with his potentiality aroused, Anyway, these stories are very realistic and not different from you. quite familiar to you. You'll understand them better than you know your own mother and father. How clear these great teachers of us are. How deep their concern for us that extends to today.

[38:00]

Can you taste them in your own practice?

[38:32]

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