Good evening. Welcome to the Tea House at Green Gulch Farm. Oh, virtual. Anyway, I thought I'd try some different backgrounds. So we'll start with a few minutes of meditation, and then we'll be talking about the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Chinese Zen Ancestor. The scenery has an oddly calming influence on me.

[07:44]

I'm sure you all have seen the film, The Matrix, where they finally peel back the scenery and there they are in the belly of the beast. Anyway, these machines are giving us some extraordinary examples of what's real, you know, what's real. So Zen has been trying to help us with that. question for many centuries, as the Buddha did, you know, 2500 years ago. So what's real? What can we, you know, place our bets on? And, you know, there's not a huge amount of time, we don't know, we don't know how long we'll be here, any of us, but we do have some opportunity to look at ourselves and to look at the world and to consider, you know, the great matter, as it says on the Han. the great matter of birth and death. What about the in-between? What do we do with our lives, our precious life?

[08:47]

So one of the things I'm doing is going back to the Zen ancestors, the Chinese ancestors, and looking at what they had to say and how they behaved, their deportment, the words they spoke, what teachings they valued and read and so on. So right now where we are in the sequence of Chan ancestors and ancestors is somewhere between the seventh and ninth century in China. They have been around as a culture for a very, very long time. So during this phase that they began to create what we think of as the lineage or the ancestor stories, like transmission stories, the ones we've been looking at in Kezon's book, Transmission of Light. So these transmission stories are Zen inventions, really.

[09:51]

And it took them quite a while to get it all together. At first, they had about 13 people between Shakyamuni Buddha and Bodhidharma, but that was way too few. So they added quite a few more. And at this point, I think they're Maybe 29. So it might work in terms of the amount of time that's needed. At this point, we're getting closer and closer to actual historical records. And not quite to photographs yet, but we're getting to historical records. So we have some sense that there are actually people that are known through written records and stories and some architectural evidence or carvings that had those names and had those students and said those things. So we're approaching that. We're not there yet. We're still in the kind of apocryphal phase of Zen when it's a self-story. It's self-making its own story about who it is. Who are we? You know, who are the Zen people and how are they different than any of the other schools that were present in China at the time?

[10:57]

And there were many. There were lots of Buddhism had already arrived in China. So one of the main things that appeared in this early Chan, along with the lineage, the idea that there was a lineage that was passed from, again, the transmission of light from Shakyamuni Buddha to Makashapa to Ananda. And then as we got up to China, from Bodhidharma to Hueca to Sengon and Daoxin and Hongren. So that's five. We've got five ancestors starting with Bodhidharma, the first to arrive in China. And now we're up to number six. And his name is Hui Nong. And Hui Nong pretty much is an invention, but he's a very good one. He's a very good, iconic Zen master. And he was needed. This kind of superhero was needed in order to clothe Zen in its ritual robes and its various conceptual practices.

[12:06]

you know, what it carried as teachings, how it understood the teaching of the Buddha, how it had been translated through various influences that we've talked about, the Yogacara teaching, the middle way teaching, Nagarjuna. So all of these streams have now poured through this one tiny opening of Bodhidharma into China, and now it's beginning to spread throughout China. So this is the beginning of the Zen, which came to be the dominant school of Buddhism in China over the next few centuries. We're still at kind of the beginning of that. So along with these many of the major elements I'm going to touch on this evening, one of the main things that happened to unify the Zen school as a particular identifiable school of Buddhism is the appearance of the Platform Sutra. And the Platform Sutra, which some of you probably by now have read, Mine is kind of a mess. I've got all kinds of tags on it, but this is the Platform Sutra.

[13:08]

Oops, can't see it again. Not coming through my virtual backdrop. Oh, that's very interesting. Is it? Can you see it? You see? Oh, you can. You can see parts of it. It's so funny. Look at that. It's like magic. No, there it is. Okay, forget it. I can't show you. Anyway, it's the Platform Sutra translated by Philip Jampalsky. And it's Columbia Press, Columbia Press. And this is a translation from one of these very old versions of the platform suture. One of the many, among the oldest, it was found, had been sealed up, as I told you last week, in a cave out in the desert in the 11th century and was not discovered until 1900. And then it was brought to a university and eventually translated. And Philip Limpolsky has done this translation of one of these texts from this cave. So it goes back quite a ways.

[14:08]

So what is really interesting about the Platform Sutra, other than it's interesting itself, but the fact that it was given this honorific and somewhat audacious title of a sutra. You know, up until this time, The only teachings that were called sutras were the ones that had been given by Shakyamuni Buddha himself. Those were sutras. So they're in the audacity of the Zen tradition to call this text a sutra. So this is a really important and something that it worked and it had a big impact on what was to happen next. So with this declaration, by the Zen school of the Platform Sutra as a sutra, there's this radical shift that's taking place in the Buddhist tradition, a shift that's beginning to turn the student away from the historical Buddha as an object of veneration and worship solely and his direct teachings toward a living teacher, someone who is understood to be awakened themselves.

[15:18]

And this teacher or Zen master, as they come to be called, is basically giving Dharma lessons to living students who are seated right in front of them. So this is radical. This is an incredibly radical shift that's taken place and that kind of characterizes what Zen is doing to the tradition. It's bringing it to life for good and for ill. So as my therapist always said, you're human first. So if you're going to be... Sitting up there in the Dharma seats, sporting devil eyes, as they say, you better be very careful about how you behave. So prior to this phase of Zen development, you know, from being just one school among many schools to becoming the dominant sect in China, there hadn't been such dramatic scripting of a conversation between actual historical students and actual historical teachers. So these recorded conversations, eventually the students would write them down on little slips of paper and hide them in their sleeves.

[16:23]

They were eventually collected and became what are known as encounter dialogues, which in time were gathered into these large collections of what we now know or call koans. So these are the source of the koans or public cases. The teacher's talking, the students asking questions, the answers and questions and answers are written down. And then we have what are... fairly familiar, I think, to most of you, are the Zen koans, which is basically translated koan as a public case. I think a koan was a table that a judge sat at and then would proclaim the outcome of whatever kind of litigation they were looking at. So public record. So some of the more famous collections that you may know or may have, there's the Blue Cliff Record, there's the Book of Serenity, And there's the gateless gate, the Mumong Kong. So each of these are filled with these exchanges, these encounter dialogues between the teacher and a student or a teacher and a teacher in some cases.

[17:26]

So one thing that I am reading about this history, one of the things that kind of jumped out at me that I found helpful, I thought I'd share with you as well, is that many of these early cases use a threefold logical format, threefold logic. threefold logical format, similar to what, so they say, Western philosophers call the thesis, is your proposition, antithesis, the opposite of your proposition, and the synthesis of the first proposition, the opposition to the proposition, and then putting those two together to make an even stronger issue out of the two. So thesis, antithesis, synthesis. So it's kind of, I was reading up, I always thought that was kind of something that Hegel, that name came to mind for me, but apparently he denies it. So I'm not going to say that it's Hegel's, but one of those Western philosophers not too long ago coined these three, this three-part logical system.

[18:29]

So Zen has something very similar to that. It's one of the more familiar patterns that I think I've recognized in a number of sutras, but also in the classic formulation that many of you I'm sure have heard where, you know, when you first come to practice, mountains are mountains. And then after a while, you come to realize that mountains aren't mountains at all. And then the third stage is after you've come to see that, then you come back to seeing that mountains are mountains again. So mountains are mountains. Mountains are not mountains, and then mountains are mountains again. So this is this thesis, antithesis, and the synthesis of these three. And in the case of the Zen use of the threefold logic, the first view of the mountains as mountains is just plain common sense. I mean, you know, we don't argue about that. Oh, there's some mountains. No problem. The second viewing of the mountains is seen through the lens of the emptiness teachings, or this uncommon sense.

[19:36]

also known as Prajnaparamita, wisdom beyond wisdom. So for those of you familiar with some of the Zen chants that we do here at Zen Center, this is the Heart Sutra. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no mountains. This is this negation of some, but I have eyes, I have ears, no eyes, no ears. So that's the antithesis of what we assume. The common sense assumes one thing and these... Prajnaparamita Sutras are saying, no, you look again. You look again. And then we need to actually use some deeper logic and deeper understanding to figure out, well, why are they saying that? What does that mean when they say no eyes? So that requires some analysis, some thinking about it, and some teachings. So the second one is Prajnaparamita, meaning that the mountains cannot be seen at all. What is seen when you get on the mountain? What do you see when you get on the mountain? When you go to the mountain, you see rocks and trees and pathways and rivulets and huts and people.

[20:42]

But where's the mountain? Where'd the mountain go? There's all these parts. And it's also, if you think in terms of how this mountain got here, there's the Big Bang. And then there's the formation of the planets and the stars and the uplifting of the continents. So a mountain is not a mountain. It's a rather transient, temporary appearance. with all of these causes and conditions, all of these parts, and all of this language. I mean, right now, I'm just going on and on about mountains. So that's part of what makes a mountain too, is that we talk about it. We give it a name. You know, I call it a mountain. What do you call it? So this is the second viewing. Like, things get a little bit wonky. when you look through the lens of the emptiness teachings. You know, you don't quite get the sharp focus than you get when you use concepts like, oh, I know a mountain when I see it. That's very sharp. You can argue the case. But after you begin to explore, it's not so clear. Things get fuzzy and under deep inspection, you know, all the way down to the atomic levels.

[21:48]

Where'd the mountain go? You can't find it. You can't, will never find it. And then we're back to mountains again. So if you just stay out there where everything's really blurry and unclear, that's a little bit verging on madness. So we don't really recommend to anyone, to ourselves especially, that we hang out in the mountains are not really mountains or eyes are not really eyes. It's just an important, as they say, you want to go to that side so you know that it's there. But you come back to this side to practice, back to the common sense world to practice. You know that you've seen something that's uncommon. And so you come back to the common sense, common language. So this third viewing of the mountains, we know that they're just an appearance based on all of these different causes and conditions, based on all of the parts that make it up, based on our language and what we call it. And at the same time, we know that we can simply point at that

[22:51]

big lump on the horizon and say mountain, and no one's going to have a problem with that. So we've returned to being able to use common sense, but not be attached to it. You know, we've lost some of our conviction about our use of nouns, whether it's about ourselves or about all the objects in the world. So this is the synthesis. You know, we've returned from the mountain. We've had this refreshing view of reality that's kind of kind of, as they say, kind of blowing your mind. And then you come back to this intimate relationship between what we could say is the relative truth, mountains are mountains, and the ultimate truth, mountains are not mountains. And then now we have the synthesis, which is the pivot upon which these two truths turn. One side is illuminated, mountains are mountains. The other side is dark, mountains are not mountains. And then it turns. The ultimate side.

[23:53]

Relative side. And that pivot is the synthesis. We're not stuck on either view. We can turn. We can move. It's fluid. Life is fluid. It's a process. We're not objects. We're processes. We're moving. Always moving. So this threefold pattern that I'm talking about is... clearly presented in one of the Wisdom Beyond Wisdom Sutras, the Prajnaparamita Sutras, which is called the Diamond Sutra. So we have the Heart Sutra, that's probably the best known of the Prajnaparamita Sutras, because we chant it daily at Zen centers all over the world, every day it's chanted. The Diamond Sutra, we used to chant once a week at Zen center, and it's really quirky. If you've ever read the Diamond Sutra, just going to read you a brief piece of it. It's, you know, after reading it for many years and I don't know what they're talking about, even though it was the language is easy.

[24:58]

The words, I know the words, but they're doing this three part little dance between the thesis, the antithesis and then the synthesis. And until I saw that described, I really didn't quite understand or didn't quite have a feeling for what. Why were they? Why are they doing that? So. I want to share with you an example from the Diamond Sutra, this threefold pattern, which includes, very importantly, the verse that Huang Nong heard. He was a woodcutter. He was out selling wood in the village. He heard a monk chanting a line from the Diamond Sutra, and he woke up. So I'm going to read you that line, you know. And whenever I read it, I think, ah, maybe we can, this might work, you know, maybe we can get it this time. So this is what woke up Hoi Nong, the illiterate supposedly woodcutter. Now the Diamond Sutra itself is a conversation.

[25:59]

The whole thing is not very big. It's just this, well, I think I'm not going to be able to see this either. I don't know how that works. Anyway, it's a very thin, it's only about 30 pages or so, 34 pages. And it goes like this. So this is a conversation between the Buddha and Subuti. And Subuti is one of the names from the Pali Canon. He's one of the disciples of the Buddha, who in the Mahayana Sutras, he's depicted or regarded as the foremost in understanding of emptiness. So that's Subuti. So he's asking questions of the Buddha, and the Buddha's answering back and forth. Whole thing is a little dialogue there. The Buddha says to Subuti, if any Bodhisattva would ask, would say, I create harmonious Buddha fields. I make mountains.

[26:59]

I create harmonious Buddha fields. Buddha says he would speak falsely. And why? So here's the three part. The harmonies of Buddha fields. The harmonies of Buddha fields as no harmonies. have they been taught by the Tathagata. Therefore, he spoke of harmonious Buddha fields. The harmonies of Buddha fields, the harmonies of Buddha fields as no harmonies, have they been taught by the Tathagata. Therefore, he spoke of harmonious Buddha fields. Conventional language. So this pattern is repeated throughout the Diamond Sutra over and over and over again. Beings, beings as no beings, therefore we save all beings, Buddha says. Beings, beings as no beings, therefore we save all beings. So then the Buddha says to Subuti, and this is the very line that appears in the story that Huynong tells about himself at the beginning of the Platform Sutra. When I was selling firewood in the marketplace, I heard a monk reciting the line from the Diamond Sutra.

[28:07]

Upon hearing it, my mind became clear and I was awakened. And this is what he heard. The bodhisattva of the great being should produce an unsupported thought. That is, a thought that is nowhere supported. A thought that is unsupported by sight, by sound, by smell, taste, touchables or mind objects. So this is actually the name that Tenshin-Rib Anderson who we call Reb, called his temple in Mill Valley. He calls it the mind of no abode. A mind of no abode. You don't land anywhere. The mind is free. It's free to visit. It's free to travel. It's free to say mountains or no mountains. But it's not attached. And it's not clinging. It's not clinging to words.

[29:09]

It's not clinging to views or opinions. It's actually quite free to offer views and opinions, but not to hold them. Not to, like my precious, my precious view. That's our ego. Gil, those of you who have been participating in our harmony of Zen and Vipassana, I like the image Gil uses of opening the hand of the mind, opening the fist of the mind. Holding views is a closed fist, closed mind. And opening the hand is opening the mind, is an open mind. It's available to receive as well as to give. So that's the direction of our teachings are all toward spaciousness. You know, more space, more room for all of the things that we carry as burden in many cases. Lighten our burdens, more space. So further on in the Platform Sutra, as we heard about last week, the story, which...

[30:10]

I'm not going to go through again, but for those of you who it's very easy to find, it's the kind of autobiographical portion of the sutra right at the beginning. He tells us that after spending those many months grinding rice at Hongren's temple, the fifth ancestor's temple, and after having written his poem on the wall late at night, which you may remember, the poem that was in competition with the head monk, very much about these emptiness teachings, And then Hongren wisely denigrates Huynong's poem, knowing that given that he's the new kid in town and he hasn't been there practicing for a long time, he's not even ordained. And here are all these monks who've been working in the temple, who've been sitting with the teacher, been listening to the lectures, and their head monk who they all respect. So now it turns out that Huynong, this illiterate workman, from the kitchen, has written a poem that is actually more, clearly more indicative of his awakening than the poem that the head student wrote.

[31:22]

So this is not a good thing. This is given humans and their competitive nature. This is a very kind of somewhat dangerous situation for Huynong to be in. So Hongren tells the monks, no, that poem's no good. But then he calls... into his quarters at midnight that night. And he tells him, actually, you are the true heir. You know, your understanding is supreme. And then he goes on, Hong Kong goes on to teach him the ultimate meaning of the Diamond Sutra. So several places in the Platform Sutra, we hear reference to the Diamond Sutra. to the Prajnaparamita. So this is another big thing that's happening now, that Zen has going from having been predominantly a teaching most deeply influenced by the mind-only teachings of the Lankavatara Sutra to now being primarily focusing on the Prajnaparamita Sutras, which is quite a shift in...

[32:24]

attitude and language and what's central, what's valued as central in coming to understand the Buddha's teaching. So after Holmgren has given him this exposition on the Diamond Sutra, he says to him, you know, if you stay here, people will try to harm you. So you need to leave at once. And then he helps him get across the river and run away. So all of these iconic characters and stories about them come to mark what becomes known as the Zen tradition. I think a lot of these markers or characteristics are things that we know because that's what we're doing now. We are at a Zen center. And I recognize the lineage of these ideas, of these concepts, of these teachings, of the Heart Sutra, the Diamond Sutra. and so on. This is the dominance of our modern era.

[33:27]

All of this has been passed forward to us, those of us practicing today. So at this point, they're just beginning to move deeper and deeper into the Chinese cultural history. And once the tradition is firmly grounded on the emptiness teachings, the other grounding So that's one grounding now is emptiness teachings, which isn't much of a round. And the other one is on the face-to-face encounter between a student and a teacher. So these are the two main features, emptiness teachings and face-to-face transmission, conversation from, as it says in the Lotus Sutra, only a Buddha and a Buddha can know the whole of all existence, is only known by a Buddha and a Buddha. an awakened mind and an awakened mind. And each of us has as understood to have this awakened core. When we meet that awakened core, meets the awakened core, there's an opening there.

[34:31]

This enlightenment is about these two, the coming together of the two things, of non-separation. So two people is a really good embodiment of self and other. It's a good way to confront, to have a mirror of what we do when we think that that's not me. That other, that other right there, that face right there is not me. And then that division starts to melt away as you go into conversation with your teacher or your friends about the Dharma. Those divisions no longer, it's just like no mountain. There's no separation. Where'd it go? Well, it was never there. So this is part of how we are able to bring about some realizations, you know, even small, big, doesn't matter. At some point you get a little glimpse of, oh, whoa, this is much more than what I think, much more than how I usually think.

[35:34]

So wisdom beyond wisdom, prajna, paramita. So it's during this phase that the whole character of Zen changes from this emphasis on the Buddha as a kind of remote, enlightened being, almost hard to imagine that such a being might be, to the emphasis on humans, on human beings, from the words of the Buddha to the words of the Zen ancestors. So I don't know if you can feel that, but that is quite a huge shift in orientation. So following what is basically this autobiographical storytelling that takes place at the start of the Platform Sutra, pointing as talking about himself, his childhood, and the story of writing the poems on the wall and his meeting with the fifth ancestor at midnight. He writes all of that in the beginning of the Platform Sutra. And then further on, there are a number of classical Mahayana teachings that are carried along and embedded in this sutra as well.

[36:36]

So it's kind of like a nice little composite of iconic storytelling, character formation. And then here's these... Pretty traditional Mahayana teachings that are brought along too, for the ride, so to speak. So here's one of them, small example of a classical teaching that's being attributed to Huynong as if he spoke it, as if he's actually said it. But much of what is said in the Platform Sutra can be found in other Mahayana sutras as kind of direct quotations or direct citations. So in the Platform Sutra, Huynong is said to have said, the nature of light and darkness is not two. Their non-dual nature is thus the real nature. The non-dual nature is thus the real nature. The real nature does not decrease in the ignorant person, nor does it increase in the wise one. It stays in the midst of passions, but it is not disturbed.

[37:38]

It exists in the state of samadhi, but it is not quiet, not cut off, not persisting, not coming, not going. It exists neither in the middle, nor in the inside, nor on the outside. It is not born, nor is it destroyed. Real nature and its form are in the ultimate. It is always abiding and changeless, given a name and It is called the truth. And then he adds this verse. The mind ground contains the various seeds. With the all-pervading rain, each and every one sprouts. When one has suddenly awakened to the sentient sea of a flower, the fruit of enlightenment matures of itself. The mind-ground contains the various seeds, with the all-pervading rain, each and every one sprouts.

[38:40]

When one has suddenly awakened to the sentiency of the flower, the fruit of enlightenment matures of itself. After he finished, the master, Hui Nong, said, this dharma is not dual, neither is the mind. This dharma is pure and has no form at all. Take care not to contemplate purity or to make the mind empty. The mind is from the outset pure. There is nothing you must grasp or throw away. Each one of you must exert themselves. Leave now and go to whatever circumstances lead you. So from this point on, What had been basically the tradition of passing on the inheritance from one teacher to the next was done by means of passing the robe, the Buddha's robe.

[39:43]

So, you know, we wear what's called the okesa of these large robes that we sew prior to ordination. And then in the morning after the robe chant, so we put the robe on our heads and we chant the robe chant. great robe of liberation, field far beyond form and emptiness, wearing the Tathagata's teaching, saving all beings. So we say that, we chant that, then we put on the Buddha's robe and do our morning service. So this was how transmission was done up until Huynong and the platform sirtwa. From this point on, Huynong does not receive the robe from Hongren. Instead, what becomes the proof of transmission for a while anyway, not too much longer, maybe a few hundred years, is to have a copy of the Platform Sutra. So if you have a copy of the Platform Sutra, you are in good shape as someone who has received the Dharma.

[40:48]

This is really another interesting twist. And how do you know that? Because it says so in the Platform Sutra. It's this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. which worked very well. In fact, the whole thing was a wonderful publicity event that brought this way of teaching, understanding, practicing, and allegiance to the Prajnaparamita into dominance in China within several hundred years. It's like, after a while, nobody knew there was another kind of Buddhism. I was remembering that myself, that when I first came to the San Francisco Zen Center, now, at least many, many years ago, I didn't know there was any other kind of Buddhism. You know, all I knew is that there was this Zen center and they were Buddhists. And I eventually moved in there. And it was quite a while before the news got out that there were other kinds of Buddhism in the neighborhood. You know, and now I'm much more aware of that. But boy, it's interesting how what you don't know, you don't know what you don't know, you know. So some of the other important features of Zen which we can see to this day in the practices at the San Francisco Zen Center include giving Dharma talks to an assembly of both monks and laity.

[42:03]

So we do that. We have our public programs and the teachers lecture to the assembly. That's been done for hundreds of years. Another feature is being able to question the teacher, both in public You can ask questions about what's been said, and also in private. So we have private meetings. It's quite a lot of what I do in the morning. I meet with students one-on-one. In my case, because I'm an abbot, it's called Dokusan. And before I was an abbot, it was called practice discussion. So many of the teachers here at Zen Center are practice leaders. They've been the head student. what we call shuso. They've been living and studying for quite a while. So they are teachers. They teach classes and they also meet with students. But they don't really, we don't call it doksan until you've done the mountain seat and taken the role of abbot. So that's the second thing, questioning the teacher.

[43:03]

And then the third thing that we still do is lots and lots of meditation. So that's been common to the Zen tradition throughout its history. And yet, given that the details of how one is to meditate are rarely given in Zen, you know, other than these private talks and the public lectures, students really are obliged to work it out on their own. You know, there's kind of their own Zen destiny, so to speak. And it's pretty idiosyncratic. People take very different tacks in their interest in practice. Some of them are really uh crafts people uh artists or um poets writers some of them are more like inclined for public speaking or at least willing to do public speaking uh some are farmers or bread bakers so we have all kinds of expressions of basically the core understanding about you know there is no outside of me what i'm doing is my practice whatever i do throughout the day is my expression

[44:13]

of my understanding of the non-dual nature of reality. So we are basically kind of self-taught, self-receiving, self-employing samadhi. Certainly, we can ask for guidance and help along the way, and I certainly often do. Many of the students do. But in some sense, you row your own boat. You basically decide how fast, how far, and how hard you're going to row. And then the outcome of that is a result of your own effort. And there's no need to judge anyone else or compare anyone else. So the last bit of information I want to share with you about the suture are a couple of the major teachings that are endorsed by the very presence. in this iconic text. So some of these teachings will be familiar to you. But it's important to see that this text really does kind of gather in all of the major pieces that they wanted to have understood as, this is what Zen thinks, this is how Zen does.

[45:20]

So I'm going to be finishing up with the Platform Sutra this evening. And then the next teacher I want to look at I think it's going to be Dongshan, who's the founder of Soto Zen. There's one other wonderful teacher in between him and there that I think I might look at. It's Shito, S-H-I-T-O-U, which was Suzuki Roshi's favorite. He wrote Merging of Difference and Unity. So actually, maybe I'll do that one next week because it really is a sweet story. Also, the transmission of light. And then after that, we'll go on to Dongshan, Tozan, Tozan Ryokai in Japanese. So the major ideas that are carried within the Platform Sutra are, first of them, is the identity of wisdom as meditation. And meditation as wisdom, rather than one be a method to get to the other, they co-arise. The synthesis of wisdom and meditation is one.

[46:24]

Meditation is wisdom, and wisdom is meditation. That's one premise. Another one is the emphasis on original purity, or like Buddha nature, that already the mind is pure. And although this ultimate original purity has no form, it's formless. Awareness is formless. How could you point to awareness? You can point to what you're aware of, but not to awareness itself. So original awareness is pure, and it has no form. And yet... when experienced or seen by an individual, you know, when the screen falls away, and the appearances are no longer blinding us from the light of the moon, to use the metaphor of the moon through ivy, one that I rather like, that seeing the moon through ivy is kind of our distractions, you know, but still there's the moon is shining, the light is getting through the branches. So even though

[47:26]

It has no form. When seen or experienced by an individual, this is what constitutes enlightenment, awakening, seeing your original face before your parents were born. That's another one of those koans. What was your original face before your parents were born? So a third principle that is included in the Platform Sutra is non-attachment to anything, including whatever one imagines they have accomplished. So, you know, working hard, accomplishing nothing. That's what we have on our, we made some sweat, some t-shirts that say that for, it says Green Gold Farm. And on the back, it says working hard, accomplishing nothing. There's no, there's no finish line. We're not going away. We're not going somewhere. We're there. We're there. We're just working where we are. We just keep on practicing. That's all. You know, there's no, there's no arrival. There's no completion.

[48:27]

There's no accomplishment. Just practice. There's a term called shugyo. One of the students recently took precepts. She asked if I could please consider giving her that name. It means constant practice, shugyo. Another concept embedded in the Platform Sutra is that meditation has no formal technique. There's no method. There's no... There's no way to meditate. So this kind of foreshadows teachings that are to come of, like I just said, of continuous practice in all activities of your daily life. So the Zendo isn't more special than the kitchen and it's not more special than the farm. You know, whatever you're doing throughout your day, your mind has come along. So how you view the world, how you treat the world, you know, is evidence of your understanding. You know, if you're like backing off and manipulating and trying to work things out to your advantage, well, that's just kind of a sign of how you're understanding right now yourself and how you're understanding the world.

[49:39]

And that's, again, it's not to judge it. It's just to help, if possible, to reflect for people. Well, you know, seems like that's bothering you. What's going on there? What is it that, how can we help? You know, how can we support you to find peace, to relax, and to, if possible, trust your fellow humans? That's probably the hardest thing of all living in communities. How do you trust your fellow humans, you know? Particularly when they want to give you some suggestions about your practice. And that's probably where mostly people go like, nah, maybe not. I'd rather not. So there's no formal technique for meditation. All day long. Watch your mind. What's your mind up to? And then another concept is this establishment of ceremonial significance on receiving the precepts. So in our intensive that Paul and Gil and I are doing together, we're going to be looking at precepts in the third week.

[50:43]

So this next week coming up, last week we talked about meditation. This week we're going to talk about wisdom, prajna, prajna, and prajnaparamitana. the wisdom teachings and then last week we're going to talk about ethics or shila the precepts you know the kind of the guidance system for our lives so this ceremonial significance of receiving the precepts was done with a group of people so when we give precepts zen center Oftentimes, there are quite a few people receiving the precepts at the same time. And so thereby, we are initiating a group of practitioners into Buddhism as a whole, and thereby forming the Sangha for the community. So people actually know who their Dharma, literally, who their Dharma siblings are by who they were ordained with. You know, I have five people like that who I was ordained with. And we're still... We're still quite close in terms of our continuing studies.

[51:45]

I guess devotions that were pretty devoted to the practice and to trying to share and offer the practice to others. And the last one, the last principle is seeing into one's own nature. So this is emphasized throughout the Zen tradition. Meaning not to seek enlightenment or awakening somewhere outside, but rather within the practitioner themselves. The only place you'll ever find it is within yourself. You know, the 10,000 dharmas are all within our own body and mind, it says in the Platform Sutra. The 10,000 dharmas are all within our own body and mind. And therefore, the best and the only real teacher is... one's self. That's another tenet of Zen. The best and only real teacher you'll ever have is one's self.

[52:51]

So that's the Platform Sutra. And then next week we'll move on to a new adventure, a new Zen master. we can talk about. So I'm very happy to have any questions or comments you all would like to make this time. And hello. Great. Weston. Hello, Weston. I was I'm curious if Zen differentiates or is what the relationship is between what Zen means about when it says meditation and what people who have never heard of Zen like the common you know even like atheist person knows what they mean by meditation like I'm sewing it's meditative everyone knows like

[54:03]

what they're going to be served if I say, oh, it's kind of meditative. They kind of get it. I guess my own experience is it seems like everyone understands what meditation is until someone gets really excited about a religious tradition. And then it seems like it's this huge big thing. And I'm wondering, does Zen view it as something different? Or does Zen like, no, that's what we're doing, but people keep asking us about it. Well, I think outside of individuals' experience, it doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, whatever concept somebody has about meditation, or Zen, for that matter, I mean, you hear that, I think there's a perfume called Zen. I mean, whatever that that iconic word has become in the culture, it's used for a lot of like chill, you know, being chill, oh, that was a Zen move. You know, he's so Zen. So it's kind of like, okay, so we know it's gotten into the into the common language. But I really think it's an experiential You know, someone talking to me about meditation who hasn't meditated, I just keep saying, well, I think you have to try it.

[55:06]

And let's talk about what your experience of meditating is. That's a conversation. You know, that's like whatever you do experientially together, swimming or walking or looking at the moon. When we share some experience, even though we know it's not going to be the same. my meditation and yours of course are not the same because you and i aren't the same and at the same time we share a lot in common species wise and neurons and all of that um so we can talk about it we can share uh some you know like hopefully some pointers or some helpful way to to guide. Sometimes we guide people who are trying out, meditating, trying to learn how to meditate. There's nothing to learn. Just sit there. Zen doesn't have too many bells and whistles.

[56:10]

Well, there's one bell at the beginning and then there's one at the end. That's kind of it. And how was your meditation? It's like, I don't know. That's right. It's ungraspable. That's you. That's, you know, it's basically you're introducing yourself to yourself. And it's kind of startling as you begin to be quiet with yourself. Like, wow, I never noticed that. Right now I'm hearing some quail. But I have to stop busy head to hear the quail, you know. It was a bit unsettling for me when it sounded... Are you... Were you saying that... Go ahead, go ahead. Were you saying that you don't believe that everyone has already meditated? Like my experience is that this is a pervasive human experience.

[57:14]

Oh, no, I don't mean to say that. I think everyone is in samadhi a lot. I think people have had an experience of... concentration of quiet mind. I think children do, for sure. I think the trouble we get into is when we become really good at thinking and planning. You know, people have a hard time shutting it off. And I would say if you can't shut it off, it's really painful to be quiet for 40 minutes. You know, it can be quite, it takes a little while to catch on to the fact that it's okay to let it go. Let the discursive mind take a rest without having to go to sleep. So, yeah, no, I don't, I think everyone has an experience of meditation. I totally agree. You know, look at the fire, sit by the beach, but most people don't have, haven't cultivated that experience. They haven't made a practice, a daily practice of it.

[58:16]

which gives you even more information about yourself. That was helpful. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi, Maureen. You're the next one in my screen. Hi, Fu. Hi. I haven't seen you in a while. I did a couple of your workshops with Pico and I'm so missing that. Yeah. I've been trying to drop in on these lectures when I can, sometimes just for 20 minutes or so. And this is the first time I've been able to stay and do the question and answer session. So thank you for the lectures. And thank you for even dropping in for a few, you know, 20 minutes. It's still really, they've been really helpful. Just some feedback. But just a question. I know we chant the female ancestors. And this is probably a big question that I'm asking you to answer in a short amount of time or in a simple way.

[59:19]

But when do they when does their lineage start to be recorded or how what is their lineage line alongside these male ancestors that we're learning about? That's just my question. So that's probably a big question, but. No, it's it's an answerable question because it's not a lineage. OK. those women ancestors didn't come up with a story that they all knew each other. That's just something that the male ancestors did in China. And they added on Shakyamuni Buddha to their story and all those other names. So that was a, it's a narrative. It's a, it's fiction, fruitful fiction. So it was very, it was very, it's kind of brilliant in a way because it, it's, Wonderful story. I found it incredibly inspiring to know that when I came to Zen Center, that I was chanting all the names of the ancestors from Shakyamuni Buddha up to Suzuki Roshi. You know, it's like, what could be better than that? Right.

[60:19]

Not much. It's really a good story. And it's just a story. So the women were actually gathered by us. And it's really a list of known women teachers who had an impact. throughout the centuries during their lifetimes, during those periods of time. And they're put in some kind of chronological order. But those were just our way of honoring the unsung women of the tradition who were left out. So we, rather than, you know, we thought about blending them or making up a new story or whatever. And I thought, well, maybe what's better is to show the story of When did the women get to play? How long did that take? Oh, that was about the 21st century. You know, it's like, isn't that nice? So it's like to really show when the women ancestors names start to show up on the lineage chart, which they are now doing. Yeah. You know, my name is on a lineage chart now, starting with Shakyamuni Buddha.

[61:24]

So that's really, that's great. And so that now is changing history. Yeah. it's not changing history it's setting history but it's changing hopefully what happens next yeah right so when you chant those i think it's a different bell or something at tasahara i don't know it has a different physical feeling the women chant to me I don't know, maybe that's... Well, we say their name is in, I think it's Pali, Acharya Mahavadaptiti, Acharya Mita, Acharya Yasadara. So Acharya is like a venerable. I think, I'm not sure what Acharya means. I think it means venerable woman, maybe. I'll look that up. But it's either Sanskrit or Pali Acharya. So you're actually hearing an older and Indo-Indo Indian language. Whereas the ancestors that we chant, which comes to us from Japan, that's in Japanese, Sino-Japanese.

[62:30]

It's a different rhythm. That's interesting. It's really different and we use it. It's a different feeling. It's different. And I think in both cases, The intention is to show incredible respect. Oh, here it is. Acharya is a Buddhist spiritual teacher or leader, an influential mentor. Thank you. Out of the ether, you get information. That's your enlightenment, I guess. That's wonderful. Thank you so much for that background. I really appreciate that. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Let's see. Melissa, I think you've been there for a little bit. Saw your name. Hi, Phu. Thank you so much. I've been participating.

[63:31]

I'm not hearing you, Melissa, yet. Can you hear me now? Yes, yes. Okay, good. I've been participating in the intensive that you're doing with Gil and Paul, and I've... been remarking upon how Vipassana really does have a lot more instruction about how to meditate than Zen does. I didn't know very much about Vipassana until this particular intensive. And I'm curious, did the sense that one should find one's own way in meditation come with Hui Nong and the sixth ancestor? Or is that a tradition long before him? And I guess, what's kind of the rationale behind it? I think you spoke a little bit of it tonight, and I just want to make sure that I understood it. Well, I think, I don't know about the rationale, but there is certainly some understanding that comes along with the teaching that when the Buddha taught the Prajnaparamita, that's the story that he taught those texts up on a place called Vulture Peak,

[64:44]

that he had his senior disciples there receiving this. They'd already mastered the meditation trances. They'd already done Samadhi and Vipassana. They had their training base very solid. They were serious meditators and had been for a long time. So those are the guys he took up to the hill and said, well, now that you got all that down, I just want to tell you it's all empty of inherent existence. There's no goal. There's no, you know, it's just... This is just a fruitful fiction. And some of them fainted, according to the stories, you know. So, I mean, there's wonderful narratives about the impact of the emptiness teachings on the very not empty tradition that had been established for a long time. So, this is well known within the narrative of what happened when this so-called Mahayana emerged, you know, in northern India. and kind of came up through the cracks. So these, initially, these monks all lived together, like Nalanda University in Northern India, there were Mahayana, people reading Mahayana Sutras, there were people reading the early, the Theravadan Sutras, there were people reading the Pali Canon and what was to become the Chinese Canon.

[66:02]

So all of that stuff was circulating among the monks. Be like here, you know, say, hey, have you read this? This is the latest from Huanong, you know. No, I guess there wasn't Huanong yet, but from Vasubandhu or from Nagarjuna. So they were receiving the hot news at the university. And just as our universities share all different kinds of philosophies and traditions and so on. So I really envy that. I wish we would have. One reason I invited Gil and Paul to do this workshop is I think that's missing. that we're not really talking to each other. We have like, well, there's spirit rock up there, and here's Gringos over here, and never the twain shall meet. That's kind of weird. So I think we need to talk, and I'm really glad Gil's, you know, around and open, and also he's got a lot of Zen too, so he can talk both languages very easily, but he's really a convicted Vipassana teacher.

[67:05]

And I love that about him. And I feel like I'm going to continue to learn a lot from listening to him, as you have too. So we're very fortunate. And I think there's no problem with anything that he's saying. I think when I asked my teacher, what's the real main difference, if we want to get into differences? He said, probably the articulation of the Bodhisattva vow. That whatever I'm doing is for the benefit of others. And it's that... You know, becoming awakened myself is, you know, it's just so small. It's just like, what impact is that going to have on the world? But if I'm determined to awaken because I want to offer more to the world and suffering, that's a vow. You know, it's an intention. I don't know I can do it. It's not a matter of doing it. But I want to do it. So I promise to do that. So I think that may be the major expression. difference in expression that you'll see when you read from the two traditions.

[68:09]

But much of the rest of it, the technique and so on, it's just fine. It's fine. You do whatever you like that is helpful to you. So I've done all of those Vipassana techniques for years. I was very interested in them, and they're very helpful. And then at some point, as they say, you get up to the top of the 100-foot pole, and then what do you do? Chomp. That's right. That's Zen. Chomp. The good thing is there's no ground. There's nothing to hit. You just keep falling. Right. If I might, can I just ask one question? Do you have any sense or does Dr. McRae provide any information about what was happening historically such that Hway Nung could shift? the Dharma so dramatically in the way that he did when he did, you know, as a mythical figure.

[69:12]

But what was happening in China at that time that permitted that shift? Yeah, he does. You'll love it. Okay. I highly recommend it. If you want to get into that, it's great. I've got it all underlined and postmarked and everything. Yeah, there was a lot going on that, you know, causes and conditions. Like the Dalai Lama said after 9-11, don't look for blame, look for causes. How did this happen? This isn't just out of the blue. So, you know, looking for causes, what brought that about? You can do that with your own life and with history and so on. How did this happen? Where's racism come from? Well, there's some causes, you know, and we should be aware of them. And same thing with China. When Zen was coming into China, China wasn't quite ready yet, you know, for several generations. It was just kind of warming up to these guys who were meditating. That was their main activity. And then little by little, they started trying to explain themselves.

[70:15]

And that became, they imported the Prajnaparamita, the Lankavatara. So all of those streams were coming in. And when they arrived in the capital of China, they were very intelligent, well-read people started looking at this stuff. They got very excited. It is exciting, you know, the Mahayana Sutras are phantasmagorical. If you don't have movies, you know, reading a Mahayana Sutra will, you know, really get your mind going. It's very, there's a lot of life going on in there. So I think it was just so appealing to the, as it is to us, you know, or can be. I see. Thank you so much. You're welcome. You're welcome. Drew. I think I'm unmuted, yeah.

[71:22]

I don't hear you yet, Drew. Is there something you need to do more? I noticed you're, oh, there you go. It says unmuted. Okay. Yeah, you're good. Yeah. I've been involved with the Vipassana here up in Vermont for 15 years and going down to IMS a lot. I've always just, just what you asked, what's the main difference? How do you boil it down? Mahayana Theravada. I'm sorry I couldn't take your workshop. I just had, I couldn't do it. And the whole idea of the Bodhisattva vow being a main difference, what you were saying. Could you say more about that? I don't know. Is that what Gil would say? Because my experience of the Vipassana teachers, they're really out there teaching, doing workshops, writing. They seem to be not just in it for themselves. I don't quite get meant about the difference.

[72:24]

Maybe, you know, a thousand years ago, people just I just want to get myself enlightened. But in today's world. They seem equally compassionate and meta. Totally. Totally. And just aside, what's the next open discussion on this open lecture? What's that? You have some open lectures open to the public? Yes. Wednesday evening and then Saturday morning. We just had one Saturday. Gil and Paul spoke together on Saturday. And... And then Paul gave the talk Wednesday evening last week. I'm going to give the talk Wednesday evening next week. And then Gil, it's at 7.30 on the Zen Center. If you go on the Zen Center website, I think it'll say where the link is. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. No, I totally understand where people often say that.

[73:26]

They'll often say that, oh, they're really nice people. They're very compassionate. No, that's not. That's not a doubt. There's no doubt about that. I think if you read the text in the sutras, there's a lot of directions for getting out of samsara and basically leaving samsara and arriving in nirvana. Right. Okay. So in the Mahayana sutras, you're really... taught not to go there because you can end up there if you're not careful. As a meditator, you can enter into nirvana to a kind of an end run about, you know, kind of self, the self. Like somebody once said that the, and this is all about the inside the meditation. You know, that one of the things about the early teachings is that there's a trace,

[74:27]

of no self. And then in the Zen teachings, they say there's a trace of emptiness. So leaving traces is a bad thing. So if you're leaving a trace of a no self, it means you've kind of gone too far away from your human side. And if you're leaving a trace of emptiness, you've gone too far away also from your human side. It's called the Zen sickness. So these are kind of... There are caution flags on the track for practitioners. You can actually slip off into some states of mind where you really feel like you're just fine and everyone else has a problem. You're like a steel ball. And... People don't like that very much to be around steel balls. They get really irritated. So, you know, it's one of the things sometimes when the students fall into that, we kind of bring them back.

[75:29]

Somebody once said, well, we don't have a method for curing Zen sickness. And I said, oh, yes, we do. We make them the head cook. Brings them back real fast. You cannot make three meals a day for 100 people without waking up to the mundane reality. You know, those are carrots. That's a soup pot. So, you know, these are all kind of known within the house. And I don't think the intention is ever to say that there's no compassion. No one's more compassionate. But there literally is a vow. And it's from the Pali Canon. And I think one of the reasons that that vow of Sumedha was the name of the monk. He was a yogi. And he saw a Buddha by the name of Deepankara. There's a story in the Palikana. And when Deepankara came to town, Sumedha, who was a great yogi and magician, used his human strength to repair the road for the visiting Buddha.

[76:32]

And he didn't have enough time to get it done. And so when the visiting Buddha came, Sumedha put his hair, he had dreadlocks, down into the mud, which is why we bow the way we do. putting our hands down to lift the Buddha up over our head, which is the vow. And when Sumedha did that, the Buddha looked at him and he said, you're going to become a Buddha and your name is going to be Shakyamuni. Many, many lifetimes from now, because you vowed not to leave samsara. You promised not to leave transmigration and enter nirvana until you you became a Buddha and brought everyone with you. So that was the vow. That's the story. And the Mahayana folks picked up on that story and said, well, we want to make that vow. We don't want to leave until everybody's awakened. We're all on the bus together. And then some of the other traditions say, that takes too long.

[77:36]

You'll never get there. You might as well just get out of here while the getting's good. Become an Arhat and stop transmigrating. You know, these are just stories. So if you can read about them and then you say, well, it does seem to be the emphasis in those old teachings to try to get out of here. And in the Mahayana, it's all about don't you go anywhere, you know. So it's a little bit from reading the sutras, not so much meeting the modern teachers, because everybody's read Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, you know, and everybody's got the same basis understanding about what the criticism of the early teachings was by the later teachings, monks arguing with each other. So I don't feel like any of the modern Pasana teachers aren't well aware of this charge. that you don't have this bodhisattva vow. So they all always say things about, Gil says that. For everyone, this is for everyone. So, you know, they're evolving their own presentations.

[78:40]

We're all sounding alike. Synthesis, right? So that's where we want to be. Great, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Hi, Tim. Hello again, Fu. I missed you for a whole day. Yeah, well, I'll be back tomorrow. We live together now. I was just going to comment that I think it really comes down to terminology. It's really just a big difference, the terminology, but talking about very similar things. And I think because Therobauden practice is lifted directly from the Pali Canon. And so these meditation practices, they're pulled out of these concepts directly out of the Sudhas of the Pali Canon, particularly the Sattipatthana Sudha.

[79:43]

Really, that's about the meditation practice. So all you have to do is read that. And that's Vipassana practice. you know, almost step by step. And whether it's talking about the Bodhisattva vow or becoming a non-returner, the term they use, I mean, it's our goals are all the same. Yeah. It's terminology, I think. Yeah, it is. I think you're absolutely right. It's also sort of appeals to what kind of person are you? You know, like some engineers, what kind of what kind of buddhism would an engineer or a mathematician like what kind is a poet like what kind is the visual artist like and you know we got something for everybody there's all this emphasis is very technical yeah super technical and it kind of lines up with the way i do stuff so yeah they're quite that's spot on yeah so that's very sweet you know and and i

[80:46]

And Gil is the most organized person I know. He got our whole workshop completely on this diagram. It's like, oh, my God, that's brilliant. So there's great value in having a team that includes the engineer, the baker, the visual artist, you know, child care workers. Yeah, that's very cool. You want everything. Well, we're getting it. Yeah, I think we're getting it. I think we're getting it. All right. At least I've seen. Oh, thank you, Tim. Lisa, I've seen you there for a little bit. And then I think Lisa, and then after that, maybe we'll say good night. How are you? Hi, good. How are you doing, Sue? Good. Thank you. Good. Yeah, I just wanted to add, I noticed when I've sat in the Vipassana tradition and studied a little bit in that tradition, it seemed that they would talk about stream enters and that the enlightenment was gradual and not to expect it in one lifetime necessarily.

[81:46]

And then... And my impression of Zen was like, you can do it in one lifetime. And yeah, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on that. You know, we have a good ad agency, I think. Why wait? Get your lottery tickets. You know, you could be a millionaire today. So, yeah, I mean, part of it is what appeals to humans. You know, it's sort of like someone was saying, I was reading that... You know, a lot of the Shingon practices, the smoke and magic that comes from the esoteric Buddhism that was also in northern India, a lot of magic and stuff going on, a lot of chanting and mantras and spells and so on. You know, Zen brought a lot of that in, too. And I was asking my teacher, you know, why they do this? Because people like it. They like it. So I thought, oh, yeah, I like it. So part of it is wanting to appeal to people like you want to go and do something that you enjoy. And so, so much of it is really, you know, not because there's a big difference in the human species and what it means to wake up.

[82:52]

But how are you going to motivate people to keep going and to keep entering into their practice and not just kind of go back to sleep? Don't go back to sleep. The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell. Don't go back to sleep. Mr. Rilke. Or maybe that's Rumi. I forget. One of them. Maybe it's Rumi. I wonder what Shakyamuni Buddha would think of all the different paths. What do you think? He'd probably go, you guys. You know, he's our... grandpa. I mean, everybody starts with him. And then just like families, we all went off and, you know, argue at the table. There's just no way we can do otherwise. And that's why it's nice to have so many different place settings. You know, something that each of us likes the way we like it.

[83:54]

And then we can have our banquet together. You don't have to be separated. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. Hi, Lisa. Nice to see you back there at midnight. No, it's earlier than that. Oh, is it? 930. So this is coming from years ago in the Vipassana teachings that I heard years ago. But it seems like one difference in addition to the Bodhisattva vow is sort of the assumption of your nature. Mm-hmm. And the Zen, the Suzuki Roshi quote, you know, you're all perfect, but you need a little work. You know, that you have this inherent perfect Buddha nature. Whereas with the Vipassana, the sense that I always had is that, yes, you could become a hearer and a stream enterer and a once returner. And it was work you were doing.

[84:56]

whether over some lifetimes, whether you believed in the reincarnation, you know, the rebirth or not. But it was something you were working on improving that you did not have already. Yeah. So in some way, it doesn't shorten the journey either way. If I tell you you already got it, you still got to find it. I do? Yeah. Yeah, you already got it. Like, okay, you're already Buddha. So now act like it. So, you know, you can start from there, which is the Zen approach, or you can start from Buddha is an unimaginably wonderful outcome. If you practice hard and do various things like get rid of the hindrances, you'll be able to have a realization of what it means to be free. And I don't even know that they'd say that that's Buddha is more as liberation. Yeah. as the way Gail's been talking about it, and now I'm happy. And I think Zen is into a little bit of the phantasmagorical side, like 16-foot golden Buddha, the imaginarium, which is something I want to talk about on Wednesday night.

[86:07]

It's like Mahayana really appeals to this creativity, like writing plays and writing poetry and doing drawings and so on. It's like, go for it. rather than come back to your breath. Come on back to your breath. So can you concentrate on the all-at-onceness of the universe? You know, that's kind of the invitation from the Mahayana. Like, all together now. That's your focus. Yeah. You're right. So either way, you're kind of paralyzed. Yeah. If it's one point, that's paralysis. And if it's the whole thing, that's paralysis. So that's why the synthesis, you know, you go to one side and see the quiet, that there is nothing happening. In fact, there's nothing happening. That's the screensaver. And then the other side is all this stuff is happening. The appearances.

[87:10]

And that's the relative truth about all your relatives. Yeah, there's the mountain. There's the no mountain. That's the no mountain. Nothing's happening. The mountain again. The mountain again. Back to town. Is that going back to town, knowing that there is no town? Yes. And knowing that there's no mountain. And knowing there's no you. Right. And it's okay. And you don't have to fight with anybody and you don't have to protect it. You don't have to try to get more for it. You can kind of go with the flow. Say, hi, everybody. What you doing? You know? Yeah. So, you know, a lot of the imagery, I like the imagery of the old guy going back to the marketplace with gift bestowing hands at the end of the journey, this long journey to awakening. And then what about after that? Oh, well, now you're a happy old guy or gal and you'd like to play with kids.

[88:18]

They don't freak you out anymore. It's really hard to get any of our students to agree to play with the kids. Children? Yeah, they're wonderful. Anyway, so thank you, Lisa, for your question. Thank you. So, Gi, it's almost time. You've got two minutes to closing time. So love to hear your voice. Thank you so much for your talk. I really appreciate it. And thank you for sharing the Diamond Sutra with us. It reminded me of something that really resonated that I read in one of Suzuki Roshi's talks where a student asked, can you say something more about emptiness? And his first response was, because I cannot say anything about this. I talked for such a long time. And so, and, and there, there was, so I was going to ask if you could provide a translation of the diamond suture that you would recommend or what?

[89:27]

Yeah, I can. It's the, I think it's Edward Konza, who's a great translator of many of these. Yeah. Translated by Dr. Edward Konza. I'm sure if you look online, you'll easily find probably there's many more. I mean, this is from the old days. This is 40 years ago that I got my copy. So great. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Good to see you. It's great to see you, too. I'm I'm so sorry I wasn't able to do the intensive, but with the next one that comes up for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sure we'll do more. We're having a wonderful time together with other with other old ones. end of our end of our road well thank you everybody thank you for your kind attention and we'll see you next sunday i hope please take care if you'd like to say goodbye you're welcome to unmute and bye everyone bye everyone thank you bye everyone thank you have a wonderful week you too all of you

[90:36]

Good night, everyone. Thank you, Fu. Thank you. See you next week, Fu. Blessings. Love you all. Blessings. You too. Bye, everyone. Bye, beings. Be happy. Yeah. Hey, Richard. Hey. Hi, Paul and Kate. Hi, Fu. Thank you. Welcome, Victoria. It's always great. Thank you. I'm so glad you're there. We're looking forward to hearing you and Jill on Wednesday. I know. No, we're going to Saturday. I know. I don't know what we're going to do. It's all unscripted. Just like throwing it out there. It's really wonderful fun. Yeah. Script exists. You just don't know it yet. That's probably true. That's probably true. Somewhere back here. Yeah. Behind my ear. Thank you. Good to see you. It was good before your parents were born.

[91:37]

Yeah, yeah. It's a good one, huh? Have a great night. You too. Good night, Richard. Good night, Lisa. Thank you, Kogetsu. You're very welcome, Fusan. Good night. I'll see you tomorrow. Okay.

[91:53]

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