Tathagata's Worries. Good morning. This morning I want to talk about something that I've thought about for several years while in this training, and certainly for many years before that in my other life. We call it Buddha nature. But first I want to tell a short version of a short story. Once upon a time there was an ugly duckling, but she wasn't always an ugly duckling. Before that she was an egg, and this egg was in the nest with many other duck eggs.

[01:04]

And on top of the eggs was a mother duck who loved them all. Even though one of these eggs, her egg, was big, it was much larger than the other eggs, the mother consulted her friends, and they decided that it certainly wasn't... Well they lived at a farm, so there were only three kinds of bird-type things that came out of eggs. One was a chicken. It certainly wasn't a chicken egg. The other was a turkey. Might be a turkey. But they decided that they would just wait and see, and if it took to the water, it was a duck. So being a mother, she loved them all, so she sat on them, and the others hatched eventually.

[02:07]

But the big egg took much longer to hatch, which was odd. Something different about this egg. But finally it did hatch, and out popped this scrawny, albeit very large, duck. So it had to be a duck. It wasn't a chicken, but it might have been a turkey. But they decided pretty soon it was a duck. But it was so different, they called it ugly, which is a word used to describe something really different. Ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly. And for some reason they impressed that upon this poor little duckling, so that soon she saw herself as ugly. I mean, there was no question about it. She was just ugly. And nobody liked her.

[03:09]

The other ducks and the chickens all pecked her. That's what birds seem to do with things they don't like. They peck them and try to kill them if they can. Because not only, if something is ugly, it's also presumed weak. And the weak must be destroyed in most of nature. She was tall. That was her first mistake. She had a long neck. The other ducks don't have long necks, and they're not tall. They're very small. One morning I was sitting out by the creek in the summer, and a mother duck came by with twelve little ducklings. They were like ping-pong balls bobbing after their mother. It was beautiful, and it was really sweet and cute. And they stayed right with her like glue, no matter where she went.

[04:13]

But they were all the same size, the little ducklings. Okay, so this one, to make the short story shorter, had a terrible, terrible time. She knew she was really ugly, but not only ugly, she was also shamed. So she thought she was also bad. Not only ugly, but bad. Just because she was different. And she was born, I guess, in the summer, and had a very, very bad, long winter. She finally left her family, and as it turned out, she wasn't a turkey, because she really loved the water. And she roamed around the countryside, and one day she managed to look up, and she saw a flock of giant white birds with long necks, and they were so beautiful, with gigantic wings. And she had no idea what they were, but somehow she was drawn to them.

[05:17]

There was something about their beauty and their grace that struck something in her. And so she went about her business, and she stayed with a human family for a while, and they were not much better, because the cat in the family wanted the duckling to be a cat. And the... what's the other one? A cat? Something else. Well, it was another animal, but that other animal wanted the duckling to be like that, too. So whatever she was, she was the wrong thing. So she left them, eventually, and she slept in the marsh that winter, and it was cold, but she survived. And then, I just want to conclude, come to the ending of this story by reading the ending. It's very short. Ah, let's see. Spring, spring came to the marsh.

[06:17]

Oh, it was so lovely here, in all the freshness of spring. And straight ahead, out of the thicket, came three beautiful white swans, ruffling their feathers and floating so lightly on the water. The duckling recognized the splendid creatures and was overcome with a strange feeling of melancholy. I will fly across to them, those royal birds. They will peck me to death for daring, ugly as I am, to go near them. Never mind. Better to be killed by them than be nipped by the ducks, pecked by the hens, kicked by the girl who mines the poultry and suffer hardship in winter. And so she flew out onto the water and swam towards the beautiful swans. As they caught sight of her, they darted with ruffled feathers to meet her. Yes, kill me, kill me, cried the poor creature and bowed her head to the water, awaiting death. But what did she see there in the clear stream?

[07:19]

It was a reflection of herself that she saw in front of her, but no longer a clumsy, greyish bird, ugly and unattractive. No, she was herself a swan. It doesn't matter about being born in a duck yard as long as you are hatched from a swan's egg. She felt positively glad at having gone through so much hardship and want. It helped her to appreciate all the happiness and beauty that there were to welcome her later. And the three great swans swam round and round and stroked her with their beaks. Ta-da-da! Of course, there is a little moral there, isn't there, that it was hard to miss, that all of our hardship will be rewarded later. But that's not where I wanted to go with that. So in listening to people's way-seeking mind talks, I suspect it was obvious that so many of us come here

[08:22]

having felt, as we were growing up, that there had been some mistake made, that perhaps somehow our egg got in the wrong nest, that somehow we were never quite understood or that our values seemed to be different, but at any rate we felt that we didn't belong, that we didn't quite fit, that whoever we were, the clear message was, Don't be you. Don't be you. Be like us. Be a duck. Be a duck. So if the folks or the people we hung out with were really good at it, we did become them. But later on in life, that can't last for too long, I don't think, without a lot of suffering. So we come to a place like this.

[09:25]

And folks that are of great spiritual achievement all seem to speak of our true nature, and that certainly did catch my attention. When was it? Maybe in my twenties, I guess, that there might be something that's a true nature, because certainly the one that I'm experiencing doesn't seem to be true, doesn't seem to fit. What they also say is that our true nature is usually hidden from us, which doesn't seem like much of a deal. So, why is it hidden? Why can't we see it? Well, in Buddhism, it seems that any time we avoid our suffering, or try to avoid our suffering, we enter the world of delusion, with its children, greed and hatred and misinformation,

[10:30]

stories and thoughts like, No, you're not a Buddha. In fact, you really shouldn't be you. You should be like us. Also, the five skandhas with which we perceive the world aren't really so good. They're rather limited in what we can see. So, in a large way, we're not really equipped so well to find our true nature. And if we have no need to, we probably won't. Probably won't even try. In Christianity and Judaism, it's said that we can't see who we really are because of our dualistic, discriminating mind, believe it or not. This appears mainly in the Garden of Eden story. Most people think that it's why life is so ugly, because we were bad in the beginning. But the story really is about Adam and Eve

[11:34]

being at one with the Garden and at one with God until they ate of a certain tree. And it wasn't just that it was a naughty tree. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, it's the tree of duality. Right, wrong, this, that, you, me, God, us. So, in other words, all the relationships were broken. And so God sent, I think maybe Gabriel, was it Gabriel, with a flaming sword and kicked them out. And they could never, ever, ever, ever, ever go back again. But as it turns out, they didn't really have to. Because our quest in these terms is not to go back to the Garden of Eden, to go back to the One, it's to go, in those terms, to the New Jerusalem, which is a whole new being. In other words, our true nature. Our true nature isn't unconscious. It's vibrantly conscious. So, this true nature, then, if it does exist,

[12:41]

and I think probably each of us have had a hint, have had a taste of our true, deep nature, otherwise I don't think we would have made the trip. So, where is it? Well, so then the argument arises, well, is it inside or outside? You know, in reading the Lotus Sutra, I think the biggest thing that at least smacks me in the head is, no, it's outside. It's outside. It's like a jewel that is given to you. It's like the rain that falls on everything, equally. It's like, it's outside the burning house. It's outside. Well, that's usually the approach of evangelists, people who are trying to convert others, do you know? If I'm a person who doesn't think much about these things, but still things are uncomfortable, I will probably respond to something coming to me from the outside because I certainly don't see it on the inside.

[13:42]

So, that's a special trick with TV evangelists. If you only take on a belief or if you only turn over your life or something like that to something else or someone else, then everything will be much better. Well, the other side of that, the inside part is the mystics, so-called mystics, and where they say it's all within you. In fact, Jesus said that too. The kingdom of God is within you. And why the ones in charge let that stay, I do not understand. Very dangerous, telling common folk that they are God. Very dangerous. One of the early saints, St. Augustine, in one of his more lucid moments, said, he was talking about the eternal birth of God, which is a rather subtle notion,

[14:46]

but the Lotus Sutra speaks of it too, that the Buddha is not only temporal but eternal. And so, Augustine, in talking about this eternal birth, that God is always being born, all the time, he said, what does it avail me if this birth is always happening, if it doesn't happen in me? That it should happen in me is what matters. What a cool thing to say. What is it to me if it doesn't touch me? And one of the other mystics, Meister Eckhart, much later said, between God and your own soul there is no between. So, whatever this true nature is, it's something very, very close. So, is it inside, is it outside, is it both, is it neither, or is it just unfathomable? And so, what occurred to me in thinking about this was,

[15:51]

well, how do we determine what's real? How do we actually determine, how do we find out, how do we know what's real, what's really happening? And, you know, I don't think we do. I don't think we do know what's real, ordinarily speaking. I think reality is incredibly difficult to grasp. Of course it is. I mean, by its very nature, it's ungraspable. But it does show itself. And what thought that came to me was, of this inside, outside, this or that, is it both or is it something else, is it something beyond, was I was thinking about light. Light. You know that when we look at light through instruments, which enhance our five skandhas, what we do notice is that it's either a particle or a wave.

[16:54]

It depends on which instrument you're using and what you're looking for. So the particle or the wave are like the many. That's the many, the many manifestations of light. Two of the many. But what is the one, the many and the one? The one is the word light, I should think, you know, what we see. But what is that, light? It's, alas, just a word, a concept, an idea that has no existence in it at all. But then, I think, you know, when Dogen says, leap beyond the one and the many, I think that's where the true nature is found. When you leap beyond the one and the many, not that we leap ourselves, but we allow it to happen. I'll say something about that in a second. To leap beyond the one and the many is to know the reality,

[18:00]

and the reality is unfathomable. And I was thinking about that, too, in that, you know, if you think of your finger, I mean, I know what this is, this is a finger, and, you know, I know a lot about it, it's attached to the rest of me, it's very helpful. But if I were to look at that with a magnifying glass, I'd say, oh, my goodness, there's more to this than I thought. If I were to look at it under a microscope, I'd be surprised, goodness, I didn't know this was here. And if I were to stick it under an electron microscope, if you can do that sort of thing, I don't know. No, well, but if you could, I suspect I'd find even more that I was totally unaware of. And so the point is, the reality, whatever it is, completely eludes me, and I think that's probably the way it should be. Otherwise, I would get an even more greater sense of control, feeling of control. Well, finding out our true nature,

[19:05]

our truly who we are, how do you do that? How do you find that? Well, Dogen says, at least, he says, when you find your place right where you are, enlightenment unfolds. In other words, when we find our place right where we are, then we find out who we are, or what we are, or we find out our reality, our Buddha nature. So, and as far as I can see, we find this reality by first discovering our delusions that hide and obscure it from us. You know, in the, what is it, in the, hmm, Fukunzazangi, well, one of those, where Dogen says, Buddhas know that they are deluded. They don't always know that they're enlightened. I thought that was really cool, because I think what we can know, precisely, are our delusions, since we make them up, or they've been given to us. The discriminating mind makes up delusions

[20:10]

so that we can be protected from pain. So, somehow, if we find our place right where we are, we will realize that we actually do belong here, that we actually do belong in the nest, even though our egg is big. Also, there's also something about that, too. It's not as if reality is a thing, do you know what I mean? It's not really a thing like other things, that once we spot it, we can then give it a name and put it in a box, and forever have it be useful to us. Apparently, being enlightened about our true nature isn't an experience. In other words, there's no observer observing this thing over here. You're actually at one with what is happening. So, in other words,

[21:12]

if you can't ask somebody if they're enlightened, the question doesn't make any sense. Does that make sense? It's not as if I am experiencing enlightenment. That's not what it is. It's knowing what's real, and that's not an experience. So, what is it? Even though it's reality, or our Buddha nature, is unfathomable, inconceivable, it does have attributes, or at least we can pin some on it. One person that I particularly like these days is a psychologist who talks about this true self. One thing he has said is, it contains the compassion, it contains the vision and perspective we would call wisdom, the confidence we would call faith, to live an inner and external life of harmony and sensitivity. Pardon me, inner and external. But our true self apparently is compassionate,

[22:16]

it's wise, it is confident, and it is able to live in harmony and sensitivity. Sherry Huber, whom most of you have heard of, I suspect, says that, well, I think of her as the queen of slogans. She has a slogan for absolutely every occasion. This one in particular, she says, anything other than compassion is ego. In other words, our deluded self is everything but compassion. So when you are compassion, you are acting from your true self. In other words, Hakun Yasutani, who I think is contemporary, I think he's at Rinzai, I suspect, but he says that our Buddha nature is unfixed, it's devoid of mass, beyond individuality, personality, and imagination.

[23:18]

It's inconceivable and inscrutable. Yet, we can always awaken to it, because we are it. Another Buddhist teacher who is also a psychologist, David Brazier, says, when our conditioning is abandoned, which is what we do in our practice, obviously, we deal with our conditioning, trying to abandon it, then the manas relaxes. The manas is that consciousness that Vasubandhu made up to explain why I think I'm the same now as I was a second ago. There's something in me that is solid and goes through time, relatively solid and goes through time. The manas relaxes, the alaya consciousness settles, and alaya is all that sticky nasty stuff of karma, which gives us a feeling that something lasts, that I last. So, when these two things relax and settle, then the mind fills up with radiance from below.

[24:21]

That would be the buddhata, the Buddha nature. In other words, when we do our practices in order to get out of our own way, what arises is the radiance of our true nature. Isn't that nice? Yes, it is. So how do we let it arise? Well, first of all, we have to be there for it, which I think probably is the hardest thing, to make a decision to actually stay awake. How bizarre! Who would want to do that? But we do. We brave the terror of staying awake. And some of the things that we use in this awakening are forms. And I alluded to form at some point. Oh, I know, I was talking to the Tangario students. But I ran across in this kaleidoscope, you know, the pink book on the Lotus Sutra,

[25:23]

there's an article in there by a Japanese guy, Taitetsu Uno. And he's talking about the Lotus Sutra, but he mentions the idea of form, or kata, in martial arts training. And I thought this was the best thing I'd ever seen in form. He says, the training, kata, or form, or mold, originated in the mastery of no dance and performance. This training involves three stages, physical, psychological, and spiritual. On the physical level, the mastery of form is the crux of the training. A model is demonstrated by the teacher, and the burden of learning is on the student, who repeatedly observes and emulates the model until the form is completely internalized. This is like bowing, eating oreoki, zazen, any of the forms that we use.

[26:32]

We do it over and [...] over again, until we can't stand it, and then we do it more and more and more and more, until we become it. This results in a centered stance, ambidextrous movement, fluid performance, and subtle body and mind. He says there are also psychological changes that occur in practicing the forms. He says the monotonous repetition of form practice tests the student's commitment, sincerity, willpower, emotional stability, and inner strength. Doesn't it? But most importantly, it reduces stubbornness, curbs willfulness, and eliminates bad habits of body. With the investment of time and effort, psychophysical maturity takes place, ultimately leading to the complete mastery of form,

[27:33]

which ensures maximum performance, artistry, and power. Then he goes on to say that the highest achievement, however, is spiritual, which is the displacement, get this, it is the displacement of a rigid ego-self, God forbid, with a fluid, integrated self which can break free of form so that there appears spontaneously the unique flowering of talent, individual creativity, and uncanny resonance with reality. Sign me up. So, form, we'll do all this stuff, which is in a way of enacting our true nature. Those things describe our true nature. The precepts, by following the precepts, that's behaving as a Buddha.

[28:39]

It's behaving as a real, honest-to-God, honest-to-goodness human being who is undiluted. So every time we follow the precepts, we are actualizing our Buddha nature, our true nature. Upright posture, sitting upright, is how a Buddha sits, is how a Buddha meets reality. Reality actually can only be met in an upright posture, neither leaning left, nor right, nor forward, nor back. You know, when I think of this, I think of, well, is there anybody who actually turned out to be the right egg in the right nest? And what came to me was the Dalai Lama, whom I never really knew, well, shall I say this in public? I never really liked so much, because I couldn't relate to him. Somebody that kind, and that open, and forgiving, and compassionate.

[29:45]

What has that to do with me? Well, now, I'm older now, and can you imagine what it must be like to be raised as a Buddha? Well, probably not. I can't. Maybe you can. But here's a guy who, since he was a little tiny tyke, I don't think he ever got the impression he wasn't a Buddha, that he wasn't the embodiment of compassion and wisdom. And not only that, I mean, he just taught that over and over and over again, and treated kindly and respectfully, if the movie's true. And what that produces is this amazing person, astounding person. Thankfully, it's never too late to start. So we can jump on that train any time. So, to end all this,

[30:48]

you know, Immanuel Kant, in one of the things that I was able to understand, he said that we act as if in order to become. And the Lotus Sutra certainly talks about that. You must practice hard to become who you really are. How can that possibly make sense? But it does. In Christianity, there's an expression, the time is coming and now is. The future present is a way of speaking of our place in time and space. So we act as if, by doing our practices, our practice, we act like a Buddha, an authentic human being. So, in other words, we are reconditioning ourselves to be who we really are. Because we all have had expert conditioning otherwise.

[31:51]

Expert, expert. And so here we're to recondition, so that we can leap free of the whole business and find out who we really are. So that what we, actually what we learn here, will serve us for the rest of our lives. Excellent. This time. Are there any questions or comments? First may I ask, what time does the kitchen leave? 10.15? We've got too much time for questions. Oh, yes. Well, talking about these things is sort of easier in a face-to-face little room.

[33:03]

When you find who you really are, it's not an it and it's not a who. How's that? As Yasutani Roshi said, that it's not about individuality, it's not about personality, it's not personal. The personal is the ego. I am this, I am that. Enlightenment isn't about that at all, as far as I can tell. Because when you act from who you really are, your behavior is always appropriate. Erin? When you said that the posture of a Buddha is upright, could you say what you mean by upright? Neither leaning left, nor right, nor forward, nor back. I want that.

[34:16]

I don't want that. I don't think this is good. I think it's very good. That's leaning. So we are ... Correct me if I'm wrong, we're all very good at that. That's a skill we don't have to cultivate. So what we're trying to cultivate is the upright stance, the upright posture. Not necessarily ... I don't mean that literally, but in terms of practice, definitely literally. When we sit, we're practicing that. Hopefully that we can take that out of the room with us. Incidentally, you know that the reason why we keep our eyes open is so that when we're out there, we can be upright because our eyes are open. If we only know how to be upright with our eyes closed,

[35:19]

then to be upright outside we'd have to keep them closed all the time, which would be a hazard. Judith? When we meet this reality sometimes, is the memory or the ugly duckling and feeling that we haven't belonged, that we're in the wrong place, do they ... I just wonder if there's a ripple of this that goes back, excuse me for losing time on this, that somehow heals? Is there a way in which if we realize our true nature, that doesn't look anymore like it was so horrible?

[36:20]

Oh, oh, oh. Did I give you the impression this was bad news? Well, I don't know. Maybe that's just how I heard it. All of those uncomfortable, horrible experiences that we had that brought us here. Right, right. Well, that's okay. And they're okay. Because what ... I mean, like Adam and Eve, for example, weren't kicked out just because they were awful. They were kicked out because that was the next step. You know, when someone tells you, Don't eat that. I know it looks good, but don't eat it. What are you going to do? I'm going to eat it. So, I mean, the next step in their development, you know, they knew the one. We know the one in the womb, apparently. Who could have told me that? Well, whatever. But once we know the one, then we have to know the other. You know, the ego has to develop,

[37:25]

otherwise we can't cross the street, apparently. But for whatever reason, that's the way a human being develops. We develop an ego. Some of us develop really functional ones. Some of us develop very hurt ones, wounded ones. But, in a way, it doesn't really matter. What matters is practice. Completely accepting, well, it's all delusion. You know, that I'm anything. Anything I say is not quite right. If I say I'm really, really terrific and special, is that any different from I'm the worst? So, in a way, what brought your ego into development doesn't matter so much, but it's doing the practice. You're putting the practice onto it, I think, where we wake up, where we become who we truly are, which is compassionate and wise and confident. Does that speak?

[38:27]

I just wonder if we then see those, you know, sort of early difficult experiences, that we somehow seek delusion and seek our compassionate selves, and then... Oh, don't you? Don't you, after a while? I mean, you think of your parents and what they didn't do, or what they did, kind of looking back now, it's like, well, geez, like what other choice did they have? You know, given their circumstances and given me, you know, what choice was there? Probably not much. Probably not much. Plus, having come from a different planet, also came into it. Don't you find, when you look back, that things seem to make sense a little bit? Or even if they don't, it's okay. At least, that's what I find. It's all right. I can let it rest. Only if I truly accept myself now.

[39:32]

If I don't, then I won't. Joan? I was thinking back with the leaning forward and just the leaning in general. I was thinking, like, so would you call that suffering, all that leaning? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So then, I just read yesterday in the Platform Sutra, where Nag says, suffering is enlightenment. Yes. And I'm interested. Yeah. And it reminds me of something you said a few years ago about the passions. Absolutely. Is that how you understand it? Same thing. Yep. Yeah. By leaning into it without my being aware of it, it's just like being so sound asleep that I'll say, Maha Prajnaparamita. What I see happening, Ma, is with that, there's like this, it's funny, but there's also, it's really easy to go into this judgment or sarcasm,

[40:34]

which, I don't know, I've just been noticing that lately, that you can bring it up, but the mind still goes, whoop, whoop, good and bad. Are you speaking of your own sarcasm or mine, which I hope isn't? Which was, actually. Well, it just arises, you know? Yes. So, I guess, how to hold that tenderly when the leaning is happening, that it's a barrier and it's also a gate. Yes, yes. But we seem to forget that. Oh, yes. Yes. Because our identity is at stake. Who we think we are is at stake, and that's very dangerous for us. You know, Buddhas, Buddhas know about their delusion. So a Buddha, an awakened one, when they see themselves, when they feel themselves leaning, they say, oh, leaning, and they've awakened. Do you know anything that, like judgment or sarcasm, you know, it's the same thing. Oh, judgment, sarcasm. Oh, that's compassion, right?

[41:35]

Oh, your knees. Oh, your sarcasm. Does that speak to what you're saying? Oh, yes. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not against suffering. I think it's the only gate. I think it's the only gate into who we really are. Yes. That quote you read about the forms was really inspiring, and it brought up a few things that just come to mind for me. One is taking the forms too seriously and getting kind of fascistic about it. And then the other is being too slack. And then also, the most important thing is, what about people because of disability or having certain physical problems that can't meet the forms? And how might you take that quote and apply it to another problem? Well, I don't see any difference.

[42:36]

I don't see that as a problem. Okay. I think if you're... No, I don't see that as a problem at all. Well, can you help me not think about it as a problem? Yeah. Don't think about it as a problem. Cool. No. If you only have one arm, this is gassho. If you can't do that, then this is gassho. I don't see it as a problem. Does that make sense? Steven? Regarding what you were saying about forms, about pitfalls in practice, can you say something about in learning through mimicry, through repetition, is there an intermediate stage that's something habitual, or is that totally different course? Well, you know,

[43:38]

habit, I think, has a bad rap. I mean, even the word habit. I mean, who wants to be told they have a habit? Or... I was thinking about that, too. And what I thought about was, so what? I have habits, and their escalated version of addictions, of course, are the same. And I have a habit of coming to the zendo. So some habits are wholesome. Other habits are unwholesome. If I come to the zendo out of habit, that's a pretty good thing. If I know I'm coming to the zendo out of habit, that's even better. Yeah. Meg? When you said you know you're leaning forward,

[44:39]

and that's enlightened, like an extreme delusion, what do you do with that sense memory that results from that moment of awakening to that specific delusion in light of what some studies said that you quoted about like enlightenment is an experience you can't... I mean, it's not an experience, you can't describe it, because if you were there to describe it, it wouldn't be enlightenment. Right. It does seem to contradict each other. Like my experience is when you wake up to a specific little moment of delusion, you have this like sense of opening and dropping away and flexibility and sort of ease. And there is like a sense of memory What do you find in yourself?

[45:47]

What I find in myself... I was thinking about should I rephrase that question, but I don't think I can. I think... Oh, when... If I lose myself, for example, it's easy to lose myself being a doshi for some reason, and when I notice that self-consciousness comes right in and says, wow, that was really great. Like Linda Ruth was saying, somebody ought to make a movie of me in this orioke stuff. Then her bowl falls off or something. Self-consciousness is usually right there, right behind. But I think that's okay too. I think it's okay. Maybe I'm not understanding the answer. Ah. Maybe I haven't understood the question. Oh, you do after.

[47:01]

You do after. At the time, at the time it's okay. Yeah. Do I sound impatient? I don't mean to give that impression. But yeah, that's what I find. Sometimes you say, oh my goodness gracious. Wow. And then, ooh, I just noticed that. You know what I mean? I think ego is very strong, very strong. It really wants, it wants everything. It wants awakening. It likes those moments. Actually, it likes those moments and is frightened by when it drops away, I think. Back when the seals were changing and you read a poem, and part of it said, I wonder how much, I think this is what it said, I wonder how much suffering in the world will end when we all realize that there's no difference between light and dark. If you recall, I asked you, Oh, you did. to converse with you about that again. And I'm waiting. And I think maybe,

[48:04]

part of this still happens. I'm thinking that sitting here now has also given me the answer. Is it that there is suffering, both in dark and in light? Light and dark is suffering. That the middle way would be something other than that. The middle way is the leap beyond, I think. That's a good question. No, I didn't answer. I didn't answer you when we were in the car. Yes, if all you see is the light and the dark, that's really awful. Then if you see that in darkness there is light, and in light there is darkness, that's more of the truth. But then, hopefully through practice, there's a leap. And it can be merely just realizing, Oh, light and darkness, they're only words, aren't they? For this amazing reality, for the amazing truth. That's as far as I am in this process.

[49:05]

Okay? Tova? Going back to the story of the company doctor, I just wondered how can we help one another be swans and see the swan in each other and suggest what is the manifest? Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? Somebody else asked me that question. Did you hear that one? I think I can maybe repeat that one. Oh, it was how do we see the swan in each other. Is that true? And help each other be swans. And help each other be swans, so to speak. How do we recognize the Buddha in each of us? And how do we help in that recognition? How do we help each other in that recognition? Well, you know, sometimes I think it's just a matter of trusting. Well, if you found out

[50:10]

that you are a swan, then it won't be so hard to see others as one. And I personally have an advantage, I think, because I get to see people like face to face where they open themselves up. I mean, I don't know if they know that they're revealing how beautiful they are, but that's what I see. So that's very easy for me. But I forget, I forget. But I think every time I remind myself, it gets a little stronger. Like Norman Fisher said something that I remembered. He said that we never ever have enough information to condemn somebody or to judge somebody. There's always much, much more to the person than what we think, or just that behavior, for example.

[51:11]

It doesn't mean I don't judge. Don't get me wrong, because I certainly do. What I've found is these days, and it's quite surprising, is that I'll be sitting over there feeling responsible for the form of the universe. Why, I don't know. I think it was in the job description. And I'll see an infraction. And then this comes up of anger, or what is it? I don't know what it is, discontent or something. But then, just as quickly, and I, well, when I first started the job, I had a pad of paper right next to me with a pencil. So I could help you even more. But after a while, I noticed that if I didn't do that, if I didn't put it in concrete, it would just go away. I forgot about it completely. I prefer that. And I don't ruminate about it.

[52:17]

Even if I try, maybe I'm just losing my mind. But it doesn't, my critical memory doesn't last so long anymore. Okay. Well, I asked Michael Wenger from City Center, who was at City Center, I asked him, what is this thing? What is this for? What is it? He said, when you hold it, Buddhas appear. Thank you, Buddhas.

[52:47]

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