This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. How many of you were here on Thursday night when Leslie spoke? She talked about service. when we do bowing and chanting. And that some people apparently are irritated with service. People that are here for the whole summer and have been here for over a month now. And it reminded me of my first experience of bowing. I went to a workshop at Green Gulch and I saw the lecturer bow and I thought, oh no. That's a groveling. I would never do that.

[01:00]

And then I went to Berkeley Zen Center and started sitting regularly, and as it happened, I did not go to service because I left after 40 minutes to go to work. So I didn't see that everybody was bowing. I didn't know. And I went to some lectures, and I saw people bow, and I kept thinking, oh, no. Then one Saturday morning, I went at 9.30, and I... sat down facing the wall, minding my own business, and somebody said, please turn around and stand up for the full moon ceremony. And if you know, that ceremony is nothing but bowing and chanting, bowing and bowing and bowing and bowing. And when I turned around, I found that I was way off on the side and between me and the door... There was a sea of Zabattons of the flat cushions and people. And of course at first I didn't know what was coming. Then they started and the bowing started and I just had to laugh and bow.

[02:07]

I did not have the character to walk out. And now I love it. Now I love it. And I'm going to talk about patience. The bowing fits right in. Nowadays, I think of it a lot of different ways. Mainly perhaps as simply something to do wholeheartedly. But also as surrender. But not surrender to something or somebody. Just surrender. Just giving up. Just asking for help maybe. laying my ego burden down. When you bow all the way down, your forehead touches the mat. For me, it's saying I give up. That ego battle that we so constantly wage, right?

[03:12]

The self-protectiveness, the worry, the grasping, all of that. I am enacting with that bow my intention to give it up, to let it go. So that's how I think of bowing these days. Next week it might be different. So I have been here since Wednesday leading a... retreat, a Dharma retreat for lawyers. And I mark it as great progress that nobody left. It used to be five, eight years ago that if I said that, there would be tittering and laugh, giggling. And I'm just thrilled that that's not the case. We've been working with

[04:17]

Patience. Patience is the antidote to anger. And in the law, it's really easy to get caught up in anger. You are, after all, in an adversarial situation a lot of the time. Even when you're negotiating a contract about a work of art or a book or something, there's still an adversarial part to it. And there's still clients that can get upset and get their egos very involved and want you to be a junkyard dog. Or you can get involved with your clients and want to be a junkyard dog yourself because you care about them. It's just the profession is ripe with opportunity. So... We've been looking at it and looking at patients and what are the teachings, the classic teachings about patients have to say to us as lawyers.

[05:27]

I've been working from a text called... Well, the basic text... is Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life. And then there's this great commentary by Pema Chodron, and the book is called No Time to Lose. And it's in the bookstore right here. I commend it to you. Shantideva wrote a whole treatise on the perfections of a bodhisattva. The first one is generosity, then ethical conduct, and patience is the third. Because we need to start somewhere else. Patience is hard. It's hard practice for all of us. I think you don't have to be a lawyer to have problems with impatience. Patience is the antidote to anger. Patience is sometimes defined as forbearance. Not...

[06:34]

Taking offense. Years ago in an Al-Anon meeting someone gave a talk and she was working with taking offense and she pointed out that you didn't have to take it. We take offense. You don't have to take it. It's so often it's on offer and we grab it. Not necessary. So forbearance. Forbear taking offense. to sit still for difficulties, to not retaliate, to not express anger, assuming you still have anger, maybe irritation, whatever, to not act on it, to keep your mouth shut. Not so easy. But patience is putting up with difficulty, sitting still for difficulty.

[07:38]

And it's hard practice. So one of the lawyers said, can you kind of sum up, where's patience in all this? Because, of course, what we talked about was impatience. We've been talking about impatience. How do you find patience? You look at your impatience. But I wanted to look at it from a slightly different angle tonight. So first we want, if we can, find out how do we have patience with the other, with that person who is... driving us nuts with that person who is really difficult for us. That person we feel is out to drive us crazy, out to get us. How do we find the patience to not retaliate, to not harm that person?

[08:46]

It's not easy. And I say that... A primary way to find that patience is to keep reminding yourself that nobody wants to suffer. And let's set evil aside. I do not want to answer questions about Hitler. You don't have to deal with Hitler in your day-to-day life. It's like it's easy to talk about Hitler or Pol Pot or something. What about your partner? What about people you work with? What about people who... set the table wrong in the dining room in the morning. What about all the little things that you actually have to deal with? Okay, so please let's let Hitler rest. So I say to you that I don't think anybody gets up in the morning saying, I think I'll be a jerk today. I think I'll hurt people's feelings and insult them.

[09:51]

I think I'll be so incompetent that I'll drive people crazy. I don't think people get up like that. I don't think you get up like that. So can we cut the other a little slack? There's a great section in here. Shantideva says... I'm not angry with my bile and other humors. This man wrote in 600, so they were talking about bile and humors. We could say, I'm not angry with my stuff. I'm not angry with my shadow. I'm not angry with my bile and other humors. Fertile source of pain and suffering. So why should I resent my fellow creatures? Victims, too, of like conditions. Victims, too, of like conditions.

[10:53]

When we can remember that, that this person who is driving us nuts is a victim, too, of like conditions. When we can remember that occasionally we act like jerks, too. There are people that I drive crazy. There are people that you drive crazy. There are people that find you hard to deal with, probably, sometimes, somebody. I know there are people that find me hard to deal with. So can you remember? I think it's a major source of patience to remember that that other does not want to suffer. We do sometimes want to hurt each other, especially our families and people we're close to. Sometimes we just don't care. But that's not on your heart of hearts. That's much closer to the surface.

[11:55]

I think of anger and hatred as that surge of feeling. We've been talking about a flash of anger when for that moment you completely don't care. You're just going to have your say. We all act like that sometimes. And you know that you don't, in your heart of hearts, you don't mean to hurt people. You don't get up saying, oh, I think I'm going to mess with somebody today. I think I'm going to hurt somebody. Yeah, I think maybe four people. You know, you don't get up like that. Could you imagine that nobody gets up like that? It's not easy. There are people that, you know, it's hard to give them that. But can you imagine that every, you know, Zen teaches, Buddhism teaches, things arise out of causes and conditions.

[13:01]

And we all have shadows and we all have wounds and we all have stuff and we all have difficulties in our life. And we all cause them. And you don't even know whether maybe, and now patience with yourself, whether something to do with willingness to look at yourself, maybe you caused it. Maybe you drove the other crazy. Maybe on purpose, maybe something you could control, maybe some little tone in your voice of irritation or condescension. Or maybe you walk like their mother who abused them. And there's nothing you could do about that. But that's a cause. And it's useful to just... Open your eye of practice. Remember what possibilities there are. You don't have to figure it out, and you don't have to remember all of them, but just have that sense that maybe there's a reason why the person is acting like that, and maybe it's not because they hate me and want to hurt me.

[14:11]

Maybe it doesn't have to do with me. Maybe I'm not the star of that drama. Maybe. possible so knowing that everything arises from causes and conditions and we all have them including our bios and humors so patience with the other and then patience with yourself patience with yourself giving yourself cutting yourself some slack Giving yourself a little time before you speak, before you act. Finding that gap. People sitting for a few months begin to feel, oh, I have a little more room before I react. So finding that gap where you can find your patience. You can have a little chance of not saying and not doing.

[15:19]

And also... finding the patience and the willingness to look at your own shadow. Martin Luther King Jr. has a wonderful talk early on when he was still at Birmingham about not hating. I got it from Alan Sinaki, who is a scholar of these things. And he talks about looking at yourself. You know, if you have difficulty with somebody, if you have somebody who feels sort of like an enemy, which is an enemy, code word for somebody who's difficult for you. Check out this one. What's my piece of it? Like I said, did I use some tone of voice that set them off? Did I, in the past, do something to hurt that person? Do I have a way about me that's hard for people? Where's my part? He was quoting Christ saying, don't worry about the dust moat in the other person's eye.

[16:25]

Worry about the stone in yours. Or worry about the board on your shoulder. So patience includes looking at this one generously and kindly so as not to make it worse. But include this one. And in seeing your own jerk propensities, you can maybe be kinder to somebody else and think, I know that I don't get up in the morning meaning to be a jerk, and maybe that guy didn't either. Maybe his wife just left him. Maybe his kid hates him. Maybe all kinds of things. You don't know. I had a case, I negotiated a contract at Stanford once years ago, and the lawyer for Stanford management I found very difficult, very difficult. And I talked to a teacher about him, and I was complaining, and she said, look how much power you're giving up to that man.

[17:34]

And she was right. I said he lied and cheated and stolen, and he was evil and vicious. And I was joking around. But then she said, listen to your language. And that was a revelation to me. Listen to your language. Listen to how powerful you're making him. Maybe you're joking, but maybe not. So I practiced seeing him as a human being who did not want to suffer. And he kind of became a human being. And one of the things I saw when I have practiced... opened, and I wasn't so much seeing my story about him, but seeing him a little better, I realized that that was the Stanford management style, and he was surrounded by Stanford management, and he had to act that way if he wanted to keep his job. And he probably went home to his wife and his kids and was a perfectly nice human being. It became much easier to deal with him, and I could set boundaries

[18:36]

with him and be fierce with him if I needed to and say no. It wasn't like I said, oh, okay, we'll just go along with whatever you want. It wasn't like that. But I could do it from a realistic place and not from a frightened place that then turned into hostility and aggression. Do you see what I'm saying? So I didn't hate him anymore. And I didn't treat him as if he hated me or us. anymore, and things changed. We actually got the first contract in ages that the bargaining committee felt like they could recommend that people vote for, instead of just saying, well, this is the best we could do, and you decide. They actually could say, we think this is not great, but it's okay, and we think you should vote yes, which was a major difference. So it's, I don't know, I think I have five after nine. So do you have any questions or comments? Does this make sense?

[19:37]

Does this, yeah. Right, not become a doormat or something like that, yeah. It's partly about being generous with yourself and respecting yourself. And I think my sense is, when you can see the other person as a human being, it's actually easier to set some limits or some boundaries.

[20:43]

You know, to say, I agree with this, but not that. I know for myself, when I feel... at odds with somebody and I feel threatened by them. My way, now this is not every, some people are more prone to kind of abdicate. I'm prone to aggression. And so if I can come down and see them as just another flawed human being, then I can deal with them on a more equal basis and set some boundaries. but without it being so much of a fight, without the resistance. Does that make sense? None of you ever met, huh? Is there one, two? you say something like you might notice an opening.

[21:55]

Yeah, I think I said a gap. Yeah, yeah. But I wonder if you could say something about finding that gap when actually your whole body is awash with firefly or freeze chemicals and you're just you know, you're really in the thick of it, and you're at the most angle, actually, of hurting someone or yourself. Yes, or both. Yeah. Well, I think, and sometimes we do. We do hurt other people and ourselves, and then we may have to clean up our mess afterwards and go apologize. But... I think the way to find that gap is with the breath and with paying attention.

[22:56]

In other words, I know this one here, and I know that this one here, when she feels threatened and angry and ready to attack, her voice gets louder, faster. I start to swear. I engage in exaggeration and hyperbole. So these flags come up sometimes before I actually go into full-blown destructive events. And so when I see those flags starting to come up, then I know to back away. I know there was a woman that used to live here named Cone that said that she she decided she was disqualified and she would just shut up. She said, for example, if she saw somebody walking the wrong way, you know, she'd been here for a while and she saw somebody, a new student, walking the wrong way or holding their hands the wrong way or something like that, if great irritation came up in her, she said, I'm disqualified.

[24:08]

And she did not say. She just left them alone because she knew that if she started to talk to them, she would kind of blow them away. So sometimes I think maybe it's simply if we notice that, if we can stand it, just shut up. Or walk away. Ideally, I can't stay here. I'm afraid that I might be unkind and I just need to... I need a time out and I'm going to walk away. Don't just walk away from somebody because that's shunning and that's very painful, but just do the best you can. I think the breath makes it. Our teacher years ago said to me, Sojin Weitzman said, a good Zen student always knows where their breath is. It's a wonderful practice. And I don't always know, but I often know. And that also is great.

[25:09]

Because if it's up here in my chest, again, take a few breaths. And I can do that in the middle of a difficult conversation without it being obvious like it just was. And then be kind to yourself. If you screw up, go say, I'm sorry, I was rude to you. Period. And if you can't do that, don't go. Wait until you can just apologize for your own behavior and not try to fix them or explain nothing. And that's not easy, but it feels really good when you get to that point. Yeah. Thank you. You answered half of my question. Oh, well. Something that arises for me is holding the Buddhist practice and interacting with other people with a different practice or a different spiritual belief. How do you... Because Buddhism is so interpersonal.

[26:15]

It has a lot of self-awareness that you seek when you practice. When you are interacting with people that are not of the same mindset and only see things with blinders on, how can you break through that barrier to try to get them to understand that... How do you break through the blender? Break through your own. Just love them. Yeah, George. I have an issue sometimes. What do you do when the Manchester, that sometimes you get to a situation where it just is too late to pull cracks, damage is done.

[27:20]

And sometimes I know what happens. I just don't know what to do. Boy, do I know. I mean, that's what... I think I was talking to Greg about. I mean, you do the best you can. And if you've already started, stop. And if you can't stop, pull back a little bit. Don't go as far as you would. Just do the best you can as kindly to yourself as you can. And minimize the damage. And then get away as soon as you can. Stop as soon as you can. ask for a timeout, whatever you can do, and then go away and work it through and get to the point where you can say you're sorry. And don't worry about the other person. I mean, maybe they started it. That's not your problem. Your problem is you were unkind, so you need to deal with it. And then you see what happens.

[28:24]

Maybe they apologize back and maybe they don't, and you're not in charge of that. So again, can you get to the point of just saying, I'm sorry I was rude, period. And not, I'm sorry I was rude, and you're kind of looking for the apology back. No, never a good idea. I'm sure you know, most of you, you're in a relationship, you have an argument, and then you pause for an hour or a day or something, and then you try to talk again when you're not really ready yet, and you make it worse. So don't do that. But just be kind to yourself when you do, because we do do that. Many of us, maybe all of us, some of the time. Okay, last one, Tom. Well, no, it isn't that.

[30:02]

It's just that it feels to me like it takes an effort to be willing to really look, to set aside my story and my opinions about people. I mean, yes, I do believe that people don't get up in the morning saying, I'm going to be a jerk, but it feels like they do, you know, sometimes. And it's hard not to retaliate. And it's really hard to look, to look deeply and to remember the kind of things that King was talking about. Oh, this person doesn't want to suffer. Maybe they have issues or maybe I did trigger it two years ago at the company picnic. I've just realized now that that could have been really hurtful, what I said to Sally. It's hard to turn the light inwardly and... search your own soul. And in the long run, it is easier.

[31:03]

And it feels much better. It feels much better. And getting to saying, I'm sorry, I was rude, may feel like it costs a lot. But it's well worth it, and it feels really good when you get there. As Sojin said to me years ago in a context like this, I said, it felt like it cost a lot to get to that point. And he said, he may have been sitting right about here. He said, don't be stingy. So don't be stingy. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge. and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

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