Thank you. and surpass penetrating in perfect dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million galvas having it to see and listen to to remember and accept

[20:04]

I vow to taste the truth that does to talk to the world. Unanswered past, penetrating and verbatim karma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million calculus. Adding it to see and listen to it. to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Thakata's word. Good morning.

[21:08]

How's the audio? So nice to chant that introductory chant three times at City Center. We only do it once. Maybe we should change that. Let's see. So nice to be here in person. I was here a year ago in person, but we didn't have any outside visitors then. It's nice and it's nice to have some of you from the wider Sangha here this morning. My name is Ed Sadezon. I'm the central abbot of the San Francisco Zen Center, at least for the next three weeks. Then who and I, who stepped into the abbacy together nine years ago, will step down together on a Friday evening, three weeks from now. Do we then vanish into thin air? that's what happens there's some i'm not exactly sure what happens after that although we did promise we would hang around for a while so i think there's still some work for us to do i want to thank kokyu for inviting me to this talk when he sent me the invitation it said it would be a good way for the new people here to get the chance to meet you and oh wonderful we have new people at green gulps that i haven't met so how many of you students are

[22:35]

new to practice here at Green Gulch. Can I see a show of hands? Wonderful. Welcome to Green Gulch. I hope you're finding the practice here amenable. There's many wonderful teachers here and senior students to practice with so you should feel fortunate. I hope you're feeling fortunate. I'm gonna do a kind of walk through some traditional Zen stories this morning, which hopefully will give you a feeling for, I'm gonna pick two teachers that, and we'll sort of discuss how their practice evolved into the great Zen masters that they ended their lives as, and you can use that as a model for your way forward. So, before I get started, I wanted to just, say something about this beautiful Jizo Bodhisattva statue behind me. Take a moment to invoke her.

[23:39]

Jizo Bodhisattva is the guardian of children and travelers. And Jizo's vow is to remain present for all beings in all realms of existence. And that is our vow. Jesus holds in her hand a wish-fulfilling jewel. It represents our wish for the ease of all suffering for all beings. In particular this morning, I wish for it for those suffering from the war in Ukraine, the devastation of the earthquake in Turkey and Syria, and those suffering from gun violence and social injustice. May all... Other beings who are suffering from the consequences of global warming, be at ease. We are so fortunate to have Jizo here, and this is Zendo to remind us of this fundamental vow we have.

[24:43]

So thank you. Now, to my main topic, David Zimmerman and I led the all-practice period at City Center. on the Blue Cliff Record talks that Suzuki Roshi gave from 1962 to April 1965. So all of Suzuki Roshi's first lectures were on the Blue Cliff Record, which I found interesting, given that we think of usually the Book of Serenity as the collection of koans that are more Soto style, but Suzuki Roshi spent the first three years here talking about the Blue Cliff Record. talks, and Jiryu, along with Dear Mel, who has passed, assembled them into a collection and edited them to come out with a book eventually of Suzuki Roshi's talks, which I look forward. I understand now it's going to be two books, a collection of other lectures and then a collection of Koan lectures. So anyway, inspired by Jiryu's collection and reading through them, we led the entire practice period on the Blue Cliff Records.

[25:51]

And I decided to bring one of them forward today. So I'm going to present the 51st case. So the characters in this koan are Shui Feng and Yen To. At the time of this koan, they were both accomplished Zen teachers. Shui Feng had retired to a hermitage. to deepen further his practice, and Yento was abbot of a training temple. They were good friends and Dharma brothers who had traveled together since they were young, visiting various famous teachers, such as Dongshan, the founder of Soto Zen, and Linji, the founder of Rinzai Zen. This was during the golden age of Tang, and there were many great teachers around, until they eventually found the teacher that would give them transmission, and that was Desha. And this koan occurs after Deshan had died and Feng Shui had gone, Feng Shun, Shui Feng had retired to his hermitage and Yung Tang was in his temple.

[27:06]

So here we go. So when Shui Feng was living in a hut, there were two monks who came to pay their respects. Seeing them coming, he pushed open the door of the hut with his hand, popped out and said, what is it? One of the monks responded, what is it? Fang lowered his head and went back inside the hut. That was the end of their interaction. So we kind of... You know, this was quite common back in those days that earnest young monks would be on pilgrimage. And obviously at this time, Shui Feng was a very well-known teacher. And they'd come to interact with him and learn something from him. And this is all they got. And, you know, they walk long dusty roads in China. So what is it?

[28:08]

Was he just sort of saying, what's up? Why did you come here? What's your practice? Or what is reality? Or what's the ultimate truth? You're sort of left with what is it? What is it? What is it that's going on here, I think, is kind of the way most people interpret that statement, a question to them. And as we know, questions are an essential part of our practice. And probably all of you that have come here at some point said, what is it? What is the meaning of my life? What does it mean to be a human being? What does it mean to live in this world of suffering? How do I act appropriately? Who am I? What am I doing? It's that kind of a question. So one of the monks, apparently the two of them split up. One of the monks later came to Yento and asked, and he asked, where are you coming from?

[29:11]

And the monk said, I've come from Lingnang. And Yan Toh said, did you ever go to Shui Feng? And the monk said, I went there. And Toh said, what did he have to say? And the monk recounted the preceding story. Toh said, what did he say? The monk said, he said nothing. He lowered his head and went back inside the hut. Toh said, alas. It's too bad I didn't tell him the last word before. If I had told him, no one on earth could cope with old Shui. So To was kind of remarking, it's too bad he could have done more than that if I told him the last word. So what is this last word he should have told? Yento. Last word, Mu Ho Ju.

[30:12]

It can either be the final word or phrase, or it could be, it's very ambiguous, according to Sullivan. It could be goodbye wishes or last word in an argument or a final speech before you're dying, the dying person. But most people think in this context, the last words means the ultimate truth. If I'd only hold... the last truth, the ultimate truth, the real meaning of what life was about, he wouldn't be stumbling around doing what he's doing. So that was his comment. And so, continuing the story, at the end of the summer, the monk again brought up the preceding story to ask for instruction. To said, why didn't you ask me earlier? And the monk said, I didn't dare to be casual. To said, Though Shui Feng is born of the same lineage as me, he doesn't die in the same lineage as me.

[31:16]

If you want to know the last word, just this is it. So, first of all, I love that, that the monk came and explained his dilemma. He still didn't know what Shui Feng was talking about when he said, what is it? And he didn't get an answer except for Yento said, I just didn't have the last word. I wish I'd given it to him. So he practiced with him for three months, which I think is kind of nice. Instead of just diving in and saying, well, tell me the answer. What is the last word? Instead of doing that, he said, well, maybe I'll hang out with this guy for a while. I'll get to know him a little bit better. Maybe I'll rest with this question in my mind. And... Because you think if maybe if he'd gotten the answer right away, it wouldn't have stuck. You know, sometimes you need to mature with a question. I had when I was young, I had a burning question that I was fortunate to present to Suzuki Roshi.

[32:20]

And I got a good answer. But, you know, I didn't really completely get it. Maybe for. 20 or 30 years. It was one of those questions, one of those answers that hung around in my life and shaped my life for a long time. So sometimes it's good not to have, you know, the last word just given to you. It would be lovely if you walked up to one of these distinguished teachers in Green Gold and said, well, what's the ultimate truth? They said, psst, that's it. And then you could just go on your way. No bothering to sit zazen for 50 years. No bothering to ponder your life anymore because you've got the ultimate truth. But unfortunately, I don't think that's the way it works. Before sort of exploring this final turning of this koan, this statement,

[33:32]

Though Shui Feng is born of the same lineage as me, he doesn't die in the same lineage as me. They were both successors of the same teacher. If you want to know the last word, just this is it. Before kind of going into that some more and talking about Suzuki Rishi's comment on that, I think I'll talk a little bit about these two eminent Zen teachers. Shui Feng was born in 822. And at a very early age, he became quite an adept and was ordained when he was 14. And the person who assembled all these pages seems to have admitted page four. I should be a better secretary to myself, but anyway.

[34:42]

So Yento was born in 828. So he was actually six years younger than Bung. And they traveled a lot together, as I mentioned, going to really great teachers when they eventually ended up at Deshan's temple. And I'm going to share with you kind of a well-known story from their time together at Deshan temple, because it kind of It's wonderful how they related to each other and how they helped each other in their practice. But first, just to say a little bit about Deshan. Deshan was from northern China. And as a youth, he studied the classic precepts. He thoroughly soaked himself in the Diamond Sutra. And he'd heard that the southern school of Buddhism was robust. And this idea of sudden awakening without studying the classics. And he spoke against it. And he finally assembled all of his commentaries on the Diamond Sutra and headed south to straighten those folks out.

[35:49]

Any of you who have been studying Zen are familiar with this story. So he was going to straighten out this so-called sudden enlightenment school. In the course of his travels, he came across an old woman on the roadside selling tea and dumplings. He asked her, who are you? She responded, I am an old woman selling dumplings. When he asked if he could buy some refreshments from her, she inquired, venerable priest, what are you carrying in your bag? He said, I am a scholar of the Diamond Sutra, and I have all my notes and commentaries. Hearing this, the old woman said, I have heard that according to the Diamond Sutra, past mind is ungraspable. Present mind is ungraspable and future mind is ungraspable. So where is the mind that you wish to refresh with dumplings, oh scholar?

[36:50]

If you can answer this, you may have a dumpling for me. If not, you will have to go elsewhere for refreshment. Those tough old key women. Well, of course, Deshan was completely speechless at this point, had no answer. So he asked if there was anybody maybe he could study from nearby, and she sent him off to Chan Master Long Tan. And with Chan Master Long Tan, another story that I don't have time to recount, on blowing out a candle at night, he was awakened, and the next day he... took all of his Diamond Sutra commentaries and burned them in front of the Zendo and said, all the mysterious, all the mysterious doctrines are but a speck of dust in the vast void. So wonderful story.

[37:53]

And it's a. I love these ideas of you wander through your life and you come across some nameless woman or some nameless person. And all of a sudden you're confronted with the fact that everything you thought about life, everything you thought you were doing made no sense anymore. And you were finally jolted to a place where you could actually go meet somebody and open up to a new direction in your life. And I've, in my life, had many people not necessarily associated with Zen teachings that have woken me up. And I recommend you stay alert. You never can tell. Maybe a passing coyote will give you an insight into what's happening in your life. Wonderful koan. Kind of reminds me of that famous saying by Bodhidharma, a special transmission outside the scriptures, not founded on words and letters.

[39:04]

By pointing directly to one's mind, it lets one see into one's own true nature and attain Buddhahood. Not that we don't read tons of scriptures. I have an entire library full of them that we read. And it also reminds me when I first drove my VW bus into Tassajara. I had taken the summer off from graduate school in search of the truth and had heard California was where the truth was. And I'd heard something about some Zen master having set up a monastery in the Big Sur Mountains. When I got to Monterey, they directed me to Tassar and said, you know, you could at least go there and have a hot bath. So I drove my VW bus in there. It was a little longer dirt road than I had imagined at the time. But anyway, I got in there. I walked into the office in order to pay my $3 and secure my towel to go to the baths. But that's not what came out of my mouth.

[40:06]

What came out of my mouth was, I've read a few books on Zen, and I'm interested in it. And Stan White, who was the man behind the desk, looked at me and said, oh, well, if you stay here a week, you'll learn more about Zen in one week than if you read all the books on Zen in English. Would you like to do that? And for better or for worse, I said yes. and started my career at Zen. I don't know if Reb's here this morning. He isn't, but Reb gave me zazen instruction then. He was a very young monk, but gave a good, solid zazen instruction. And Suzuki was in residence then, giving lectures, and that's when I began my relationship with him. So even if you haven't read all the books on Zen, if you just follow the schedule, Get up in the morning, sit with some curiosity about your life.

[41:09]

And if you're a field worker, go to the fields and do what they do in the fields. Now, are we doing no-till farming yet? Are we still tilling the farms? I don't know. Sarah will have to explain. I always love it that we're being so forward-thinking in our growing of vegetables here. So we have Deshan, who became a great teacher and kind of strict and didn't talk much. He was known, you know, if you say something, if you don't say anything, 30 blows. If you say something, 30 blows. So he was considered quite strict after he had gotten this fundamental teaching. And so at this time... Kui Feng and Yento were in residence. Yento had become quite a good chef.

[42:11]

So he was the Tenzo. And he had been the Tenzo at Dengshan's place, too. So that had been kind of his thing. He was kind of like the Ed Brown at that time. And Yento was kind of the head assistant to Deshan. So here's the story. Deshan, one day... descended to the dining hall, bowls in hand. And Shui Feng asked him, where are you going with your bowls, old teacher? The bell has not rung and the drum has not sounded. Deshan turned and went back to his room. Shui Feng brought up this matter with Yento. I think there was a kind of way in which he felt kind of that he had bested the teacher. The teacher, we don't know. One commentary says the meal was late and the teacher just was arriving on time, even though the bell hadn't run, which was even worse.

[43:13]

But let's say that the teacher was just kind of one of those old ditzy teachers, possibly like I am, you know, that can't quite keep track of all these things. And I thought it was dinner time and had come down for dinner and was kind of reprimanded by the Tenzo. It's not time for dinner. Go back to your room. So he just turned and went back to his room and he was telling this to Yento and Yento said, Deshan, great as he is, does not yet know the last word. Here we have that last word again. How could Deshan, after all these meetings with these old women and all this training, still not know the last word? Of course, hearing about this little interchange, Deshan sent for Yento and asked, don't you approve of this old monk? And Yento whispered what was going on in his ear. Deshan said nothing further. Next day, when Deshan took the high seat before his assembly, his presentation was very different than usual.

[44:18]

Yento came to the front of the hall, rubbing his hands and laughing loudly, saying, how delightful. Our old boss has got hold of the last word. From now on, no one under heaven can outdo him. So what's going on here? What's this little game that's going on here? First of all, if you're into these koan things, there's always this question, what did Yento say to Deshan? What did he whisper in his ear? And, of course, all along, you know, Yento was not saying that Deshan didn't know, quote, the last word, or what is it that we're talking about here with the last word? He was quite a distinguished teacher at that time. He was probably trying to mess with Shweifeng a little bit. Why were you so, you know, not more accepting of the teacher?

[45:26]

I mean, in some sense, you know, the abbot of a monastery in our tradition, quote unquote, it's kind of the center of the mandala and whatever he's doing is the right thing to do. You know, there's parts of our morning service that you do here where the bell is rung when the abbot or the deshi, the doshi bows to the altar, whether that's the right time in that particular section of the service to do it. Kind of like, oh, When he bows, that's when the right time to do it. So if the abbot is coming to the dining hall, well, maybe that's the right time for dinner. You should at least be a little bit more. Or if nothing else, every time you run into the abbot is a chance to meet the abbot. You should take that opportunity. Oh, here's the abbot. Not reprimand him for coming early to dinner, but just have a chance to meet him. Yento did not awaken Shui Feng, and he still was kind of confused about things.

[46:32]

And then Deshan died, and the two of them set off on a pilgrimage. Maybe just, I'm going to talk more about last words here, but maybe just one little comment, you know. Last word, last truth, first truth, first word. How about the truth of each moment? The truth that arises fresh on each meeting. That's the truth that Shui Feng missed. in his meeting with Deshaun. Anyway, they were traveling.

[47:32]

This is the moment when you take a deep breath and think, ah, it's so wonderful to be sitting here in this beautiful room at Green Gulch on such a bright, sunny day. I'll just pay attention to my breathing a little bit until Ed finds the right page to talk to me about. Maybe he'll spend more time finding the right page and I can have a little bit more time just paying attention to my breathing. adjust my posture and enjoy this moment. Anyway, the two of them were hiking on pilgrimage and they were stranded by a heavy snowfall in a small village. And they took shelter in to wait out the snow. And while there, Yento takes time to catch up on his sleep. In contrast, Shui Feng, spends nearly all of his time doing Zazen. So one might say, you know, and this is typical of Yento, was sort of famous for being one of these people that was always trying so hard to be the best student of Zen.

[49:11]

You know, following the schedule exactly like it's supposed to be, reprimanding his teacher for arriving too early for dinner, just trying too hard. So he has the problem of, crying too hard. You know, it may be possible that Yento has the problem of being too relaxed. This is the trick you have to find somewhere in between. But in any way, in this case, Yento says, why is he sitting like a stone statue day in and day out? Shui Feng says that he's meditating because his heart is still not at rest. So, Yento says, well, fine. Tell me what's on your mind. I'll try to help you. And Tui Feng lists, you know, many encounters he's had with great teachers over his 20-year career. And Yento is listening very carefully.

[50:14]

And finally, he responds by shouting, don't you know that what enters from the gate cannot be the treasure of the house? Don't you know what enters from the gate cannot be the treasure of the house? If you want to propagate the great teaching, it must flow point by point from within your own breast to cover heaven and earth. Only then will it be the action of someone with spiritual power. Don't you know that what enters from the gate cannot be the treasure of the house? He's saying you keep looking to the outside. for your awakening. You keep looking to the outside, but that treasure is in you already. The treasure is in the house. And if you want to propagate this great teaching, it must flow point by point from within your own breast. It was at this moment that Chui Feng was finally settled through this patient interaction with his good friend,

[51:22]

that he had traveled with for many, many years, studied with for many years at Deshaun. And I bring this forward partly because I hope especially you new students will take advantage of the opportunity of meeting the senior student teachers here at Green Gulch and maybe get some inspiration from them, like Suzuki Hiroshi was my inspiration. But Sikiroshi, for instance, died soon after I arrived there, and I spent the next 50 years getting my encouragement from my good Zen friends, my Dharma friends that I have known all these years, some of them living here at Green Gulch. So I hope you new students may meet a Dharma friend while you're practicing here and travel with that Dharma friend over many years and find Many ways in which your Dharma friend can wake you up to the truth of your life.

[52:27]

Sangha, Dharma friends, great treasure of our way. Ah, alas. I have assembled many pages here, which I will not get to. So I think I'll return to the very last section of this koan that I started with. At the end of the summer, the monk again brought up the preceding story to ask for instruction. To said, why didn't you ask me earlier? The monk said, I dare not to be casual. To said, though feng shui feng, I'm very confused because It's ganto and seppo in Japanese, but I decided to translate it into traditional Chinese because that is our style now. But those Chinese words are much harder to pronounce than seppo and ganto.

[53:34]

Seppo and ganto kind of like the Marx Brothers, easy to remember. Anyway, where was I here? Though Shui Feng is born of the same lineage as me, he doesn't die in the same lineage as me. And Suzuki Roshi's comment on that is, wherever Shui Feng and Yento might be, however long they live as best friends of each other, what Shui Feng did is actual Shui Feng. And what Yento did is actual Yento. This is it should always be the last word for oneself and for others. So what does Sukru mean when he says what Shui Feng did is actual Shui Feng? It's even though they learn the teaching together, are both of Deshawn's lineage, and they share something very important.

[54:42]

They have to be their own man. They have to be their own teacher. They have to be themselves in their teaching. And that's why they don't, quote unquote. I know. That's always my reminder to get to wrap things up is when the when the kitchen staff leaves, because it's time to eat. Please go take care of the food. This is it. Be yourself. Don't be your teacher. Be the teacher that only you can be. Live the practice life that only you can live. That this is it. Here's a little wonderful poem that goes along with this. Oh, I have to do one other thing. I want to make a comment that Sir Groshi made about the, what is it?

[55:53]

And this is his beautiful comment. Dogen Zenji said, breathing in or breathing out, after all, what is it? Dogen said, breathing in or breathing out, after all, what is it? Sir Groshi says, no one can tell what it is. Now you may not be calm or patient enough to wait for the right answer, but let us ask ourselves if our activity is either subjective or objective. Is our activity subjective or objective? Let me point to this. What do you mean by it? Do you mean breathing itself or the idea of breathing? If you mean the idea of breathing, it will be another matter. if you mean breathing itself on each moment, you have solved the problem already. When you breathe in and out on each moment in calmness with big mind, now you will understand that the right answer to what is it should always be, this is it.

[57:09]

Breathing in or breathing out after all, This is it. May you find a great truth in that practice, which we do so diligently here all the time. This is the appreciative word to this koan. Referring to Yento's last word to Shui Feng, I will ask you enlightened mind, Is daytime different from nighttime or the same? Even though they lived acquainted with each other in complete companionship, they were to die in different places. Yes, they should die in different ways. Buddha should have curled hair. Bodhidharma should be blue-eyed. From east to west, south and north, let us come back to our old home in a midnight sky to see a plain white.

[58:15]

mountain covered with snow. Beautiful little summary there. I want to end with a poem. kind of think fits in here, at least I thought it was when I picked it, so I hope you find it. So this is a poem by Wyslava Szymboska, who is a Polish poet. Not sure if you're familiar with her. She won the Nobel Prize in 1996 for literature. And the title of the poem is Life While You Wait. Life While You Wait. performance without rehearsal, body without alteration, head without premeditation.

[59:22]

I know nothing of the role I play. I only know it's mine, and I can't exchange it. I have to guess on the spot just what this play is all about. Ill-prepared for the privilege of living, I can barely keep up with the pace that the action demands. I improvise, although I loathe improvisation. I trip at every step over my own ignorance. I cannot conceal my hayseed manners. My instincts are for happy histrionics. Stage fright makes excuses for me, which humiliate me more. Extenuating circumstances strike me as cruel. Words and impulses you cannot take back. Stars you'll never get counted. Your character, like a raincoat, you button on, on the run.

[60:28]

The pitiful results of this unexpectedness. I'll read that last sentence again. Your character, like a raincoat, you button on the run. The pitiful results of all this unexpectedness. If only I could just rehearse one Wednesday in advance. Or repeat a single Thursday that has passed. But here comes Friday with a script I haven't seen. Is it fair, I ask. My voice a little hoarse since I couldn't even clear my throat offstage. You'd be wrong to think that it's just a slapdash quiz. taken in makeshift accommodations. Oh no, I'm standing on the set and I see how strong it is. The props are surprisingly precise. The machine rotating the stage has been around even longer. The farthest galaxies have been turned on.

[61:35]

Oh no, there's no question. This must be the premiere. And whatever I do will become forever what I've done. And whatever I do will become forever what I've done. Maybe that is the last word. So, hope you enjoyed that poem. Those in the theater might enjoy it. So, I think it's that time for discussion. If anybody wants to bring up anything. And I also don't know if I welcomed you online. I'm happy that you're here. It's so wonderful that at Green Gulch we can send these talks to the wider world. And if you have anything you'd like to discuss, please send it in a chat and they can forward it to me. We have a microphone if you want to pick people and I can pass along. Okay.

[62:37]

Does anybody have any questions? Questions, thoughts, discussion here in the audience? I have one. Sure. If no one else has one. If you don't mind sharing, what was the question you had for Suzuki Roshi and what was his answer? So I'd been around... a little bit, and I was confused, and I thought some part of the way I had been being had destroyed my chance ever to get enlightened. And at that time, I was a graduate student at Albuquerque, and I took a train to San Francisco City Center because he was in the city center at that time. I was reading Nietzsche on the train.

[63:39]

You know, this is when you were serious back then. Take a 24-hour train ride from Albuquerque to San Francisco, reading Nietzsche, prepare you to ask your question to the great Zen master. So I went up, I arrived, checked in, went up, went to his assistant and said, I've come all the way from Albuquerque. He had asked his important question. I'd had this interaction with him last summer when I was practicing at Tassara and blah, blah, blah. And she said, oh, I'm sorry, he's very busy. Maybe you could write your answer in the letter and I could present it to him. I could see that this was just pushing me off and I was very unsatisfied with that idea. And so I was kind of depressed. I was kind of depressed anyway, I think, during this period of time because, you know, if you've lost every chance of being enlightened, that is a depressing thing, isn't it? So I was down, this was, we were still, we had just got the city center and I was down standing a table in one of the rooms we were redecorating and just behind the office and kind of pondering my fate.

[64:53]

And all of a sudden, Yvonne, his assistant walks in with Suzuki Roshi to show Suzuki Roshi what they were doing. So I turned off the little sander and I'm standing there And she's explaining they're going to paint it this way. And that way, and the phone in the front office rings. And the lady says, Yvonne, it's for you. Yvonne leaves the room. And there he is, a girl. She's six feet away from me. Here's my chance. I can ask him my question. But somehow I was so kind of depressed. And I couldn't get it together to even open my mouth. And I'm looking at him. And all of a sudden, I'm looking at my face. His face literally distorted to become me.

[65:56]

He had picked up every nuance, every sense of what I was feeling was projected in his face. I looked at it and what did I see? I saw this young, energetic, bright man with this little shadow of depression, a little veil of depression over his face. Yvonne walks back in the room and like that, Zogorsi returns to his normal way. That was his answer to my question that day. Thank you very much for sharing. Thank you.

[67:05]

If I can ask someone with a lot of years of experience like you, what is the difference between, say, reaching enlightenment, experiencing realization, and being enlightened, acting as the Zen master that almost everyone in this room I think probably has some vision of? Can you repeat the question again? What's the difference between, say, reaching enlightenment, experiencing realization, experiencing, oh, wow, I feel at one with the whole universe versus being, you know, being enlightened, being the, again, I feel like if you study Zen, you probably have, especially if you're a young Zen student, which I'm relatively...

[68:06]

I'm still under 40. But you probably have this image of this Zen master. And so what is the difference between having realization versus being this person who, I would say, passes on realization and who has gone beyond realization? Well, I love that question. It's so central. And I do think if you practice long enough or if you live any life, actually, you have these moments of great depth and you wake up to the fact that you actually are alive and that this is real. And that's encouraging. And to the extent that it's encouraging to your practice, it's good. it can also be a kind of trap in that you want more of that and you look for more of that and you're not happy if you're not having that.

[69:13]

And that's the big problem with big experiences. But anyway, and certainly, as Ed Brown used to say, when you're having a big experience, you don't have to worry about how you're acting. You know exactly what to do. The problem is, of course, there's the whole rest of your life, moment by moment. How do you live? Moment by moment, how do you meet each person with some level of kindness and clarity? And there is no place you get to that is where you're doing it right all the time. Even Suzuki Roshi, the wisest person I ever met, was not doing that. I think I remember a story where it was maybe... A couple years before he died, he was down swimming at the narrows at Tassar. I don't know if you've been to Tassar, but it's a very beautiful area. And there's a canyon. There's an area of the stream about a mile down the stream from Tassar where it was common to go swimming.

[70:16]

And Suzuki Roshi was down there swimming with the students, and he kind of slipped and fell in the deep end. And he felt like he was drowning. Fortunately, they fished him out and he didn't drown, but he gave the lecture a couple days later and he said, I realized when I was there that my practice wasn't good enough. I had lost my calm composure while I was underwater there. And I decided to redouble my practice. So I have returned to counting my breath. And I want all of you to be counting your breath when you're sitting zazen. You know, our basic instruction is you count to 10 and start over again. On each exhale, you say one, your next exhale, you say two and three. And then after a while, all of us say, I'm way past that. I'm just going to follow my breathing. Then after, oh, I'm way past that. I'm just going to do Shikantaza here and just exist here. I'm just going to be.

[71:16]

Suzuki Roshi said, I think we all should start. I need to make my practice better and follow my breathing. So Suzuki Roshi was always... working on his practice, just as every good person is always working on their practice. Each moment, a new chance. I just want to briefly follow up by saying I was at a very good Since then, they asked me, what's your practice? You're at a very what? A very good, but a different Zen center. They said, well, what's your practice? I always hear a question when you entered the DocuSan, what's your practice? And I said, well, I guess you could say I'm counting my breaths. And they said, well, how long have you been doing this? I said, about three years.

[72:20]

Wasn't that a little bit long to count your breaths? No, I've never... I found that barrier. That's one of the reasons why I came back here was because I felt like anyone who says that you can spend too long counting your breaths, it throws me off. That was just what came up for me when you were recounting it. I think I caught most of it. The person was criticizing you for still counting your breath after three years. Isn't that a little bit long to just keep counting your breaths? well, what was this koan I just did today? What is it? Breathing in and breathing out. That is it. You can truly understand breathing in and breathing out. No, it's a forever practice. It doesn't mean while you're sitting there, probably maybe this was in the Rinzai school or something where you're working on a koan or something. If you're working on a koan, then of course you have to go mu or whatever you're working on.

[73:25]

Always good to pay attention to your breathing, especially if you're in a grocery store line and things aren't going quickly and you're very frustrated. It's a good time just to stand there, take a couple of deep breaths and say, this too shall pass. That person will figure out how to use that iPhone to pay for their money, pay for their food. I don't know why it's not working now. It just won't work. Anyway. Thank you. Well, since you and I inhaled together and we're going to exhale together, I'm just wondering about this idea of retirement. I have a hunch you're not really, that's not really a thing, but I wonder what you think of for your after apathy.

[74:31]

Thank you for asking that, Fu. I mean... I'm 78 years old, so clearly I'm not very good at retirement. I've retired many times from many different professions. I was in tech for 20 years and retired. Anyway, I doubt if I'll ever completely retire, but as you know, I'm going to spend a year or so... We're working on Enso Village, which is a Zen-inspired retirement community that we're building up in Healdsburg, and we may build another one, and I'm involved in those things, and I have relationships with many people outside of Zen Center that are supportive of Zen Center that I will continue. So I have some projects to do for a year, as you do, and I have students that I'm going to continue to... practice with so that that will keep me busy and i noticed um some flyers arrived on my desk recently concerning italy from my wife so i suspect i suspect that's part of my retirement quote unquote along with some other areas we'll have to discuss all of that it was a kind of a subtle hint you know i noticed there was some flyers for a place called hawaii too thrown in there so

[75:58]

These things just keep appearing in my life. Well, may I live long enough to have a chance to explore with as many people as want to practice Zen with me to do that. This is a question from Dominic. Are enlightened people happy all the time? If not, why not? Yeah, well. I think, how does Zizek Rishi put it? When a student asked him if he suffered,

[77:03]

like they suffer, and Sukhri said, if I don't suffer exactly like you suffer when I'm with you, I'm not a good enough Zen teacher. So the more you practice, the more capacity you have to be with the suffering of the world, to be with people that are suffering. And at the same time, I think there is some kind of fundamental joy you have in being alive, whatever life presents you. And I certainly had that sense for Suzuki Roshi and have early on, I think in my practice, developed some feeling for, yeah, it gets tough sometimes, but it's... Worth it and there's still a joy.

[78:05]

What a gift, to state the obvious, to have a human life. There should be a fundamental sense of joy and composure in that. As you open yourself up to whatever comes your way and there will be suffering, you will lose dear, close friends. there will be lots of things that happen. Is that an answer? Was there a point in your practice where you experienced, I'm sure there was a point, but like, where you experienced a most profound shift in your practice, and what did it feel like in your body or even outside of your body?

[79:13]

Yeah, there are times. I think that story I told, I noticed a profound shift. I saw that even though I was completely lost in my depression and had no idea, what was going on in the world, that there was so much more, that I actually was so much more than I... It's so easy for us to let our world shrink. Our mind will put us in a prison, and we live in that prison, and we're totally unaware of the vastness of the life we're leading. And so there are times when you will wake up to that vastness, and it can be a kind of big shift. But mostly, mostly it's happening without you having any idea about it. That's been my experience.

[80:14]

You go live at Tassar for four years, and it's just what you're doing. You're just getting up in the morning, you're sitting tzazen, you know, you're just doing this thing, and something changes. And I'm not even sure you know what changes. You know, sometimes your friends say, oh, You're a little lighter these days or something. So I think mostly spending too much time trying to figure out whether your practice is good or bad or going this way or that way doesn't work so much. Just stay with it. And trust that it will work out because it will over time. Our style is the slow style. But. I trust it because it works. I'm not sure how to phrase this.

[81:28]

I think my essential question is, can you be a tardy Buddhist? Can you be a what? A tardy Buddhist. And I guess I'm asking because I'm aware that my habit of being late all the time has been impacting my relationships. And I've been noticing how I've been going through a family crisis and I was noticing the other day when I was not rushing how I was able to make a beautiful connection with somebody at the grocery store and ask them about their life and have this beautiful moment and you know this morning for example I was speeding towards Green Gulch and not driving very mindfully and then I was like okay Can I still show up and am I still a good person if I'm there for half of the Dharma talk?

[82:33]

And how does one balance trying to change bad habits and become a better person and yet still have self-compassion for the difficulties you have in order to do that or create that change in your life? And just like you're saying, you know, yes, when you're tardy, you're tardy, Buddha. When you're on time, you're on time, Buddha. At the same time, you know, there's kind of efforts we make. That's why we study the precepts and the paramitas and stuff, because there's some part of us that says, well, I've got a personality that kind of has these deficiencies in it, and I'm going to work on it. And you do work on it. And there's various techniques that you can use to improve that all the time.

[83:36]

Self. Compassion for yourself has to be the center of the whole show, though. You can't have compassion for yourself. Your capacity for having compassion for other people is pretty limited because you're coming from a place of deficit. So all of us. at least everybody I know, we're human beings. And because we're human beings, we don't do things right all the time. We don't treat people well all the time. We're not patient enough. And that's okay. That's because we're not gods. We're human beings. And as human beings, we are continually making an effort. Sounds like you have a practice. You come here. You made it here for half of the lecture, did you say? Half is better than no lecture. Maybe the last half was the best. Maybe that was the last word.

[84:37]

The last word was the best. Good morning. So I have a question about just sitting here today and listening to some students talking, you talking about residential practice. And I just wondered what Suzuki Roshi's thoughts were about. We lay practitioners, we householders and people and sort of the difference. You know, I'm not going to. I don't think I'm I don't imagine myself I'll ever live a residential. Buddhist life, but I still want to practice. So you just talk a little bit about that. Yeah. So I think Suzuki Roshi had a great appreciation for lay practice.

[85:39]

And he always used to say, if you think as a residential monk practicing that you're better than a person that's not doing that, you know, that your thinking is all wrong. He basically was raised in a temple in Japan, and temples in Japan are mostly lay people. The lay people come to the temple, and the abbot goes out and performs ceremonies and stuff. Sigurishi's life until he, except for the few years he stayed at a Heiji, where he trained in a training temple. And when he came to America, he came to Sakoji and... was just a temple priest dealing with the families and the lay people that were around him. He did get completely engaged with training American students, and he trained many, many students, both residentially at Tashara and city center, and many, many students that came from, that lived non-residentially practiced with him.

[86:47]

And so it's all the same. What I recommend is have some daily sitting. If you can sit Sazen daily, that's great. Have a Sangha that you can meet with weekly. That's encouraging. Have a teacher that you trust that you can have conversations with. And maybe every once in a while, sit a longer intensive, that allows you to deepen your zazen practice. I think that's the formula for lay practitioners. And obviously, it's wonderful to study the precepts and take Jukai and lay bodhisattva initiation and make your daily life your practice. We can talk about it some more, Celeste. Thank you very much. Or did you have a follow-up question?

[87:53]

I remember once one of my good friends, you knew him, Al Tribe, when he was young, he was working on his MD degree and a very serious then student. And he went to Zagershi and said, should I give up my studying for my MD degree and become a priest? And he said, no, become a doctor. And that's what Al did. It became a doctor and for 40 years lived a wonderful lay life, helping many people. And then when he retired from being a doctor, he got ordained as a priest. So, I don't know. Any more questions from online world? How quickly this happens. Thank you very much for your questions. I enjoyed our discussion. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way.

[89:12]

In our numbers, Thank you. Yes.

[90:38]

Goodbye, everybody.

[91:25]

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