This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. Zazen is sitting still like a mountain, and the mountains are moving. I was just walking down past the pool, and I heard an explosion. And rocks started to come down the side of the mountain. I said, this is in response to the question, if a mountain lion comes, in this case it's rocks. And I found myself saying, holy expletive.

[01:05]

And then I took refuge behind the gabions around the upper barn, the big rocky barrier. A thunderous bunch of rocks came down. They were mostly, though, behind the pool, bouncing into that retaining wall behind the pool. A little farther down, there are some other rocks that were coming down from this rain, moistening, glistening soil. So be careful walking around and listen if you hear some rocks banging against each other on the side of the mountain. Yeah, get out of the way. So today is the eighth day.

[02:17]

And last night I had this vision of a sesheen as a ship. The What should I say? Buddha Tathagata ship. That'd be BTS in Shinji. BTS in Shinji, sailing and everyone in it. Energized by the movement of wind and clouds in our own breathing, not separate from wind and clouds. And so I still have that feeling. So sitting zazen like a mountain is to completely realize the bodhisattva vow. Zazen, as we understand zazen, zazen is not some selfish practice.

[03:26]

Zazen is to completely save all beings. So that means any, say, selfish clinging that is present is offered to the benefit of all beings. We don't even exclude selfish clinging, self-clinging from Zazen. You might think you need to criticize yourself or somehow expel self-clinging from Zazen. But self-clinging is already included. I started reading the poem of Dogen from Zazen.

[04:30]

from Zazen Shin a few days ago. I'll see if I can read it right through without interruption, and then I'll come back to it. The hub of Buddha's activity, the turning of the ancestor's hub, moves along with your non-thinking. and is completed in the realm of non-merging. As it moves along with your non-thinking, its emergence is immediate. As it is completed in the realm of non-merging, completeness itself is realization. When its emergence is intimate, there is no separateness. When completeness reveals itself, it is neither real nor apparent.

[05:36]

When there is immediacy without separateness, immediacy is dropping away with no obstacle. Realization beyond real or apparent is effort without desire. Clear water all the way to the ground A fish swims like a fish. Vast sky transparent throughout. A bird flies like a bird. Yeah. That was not easy for me to do. I keep wanting to comment on every phrase. But this is from... This is the last part of Dogen's fascicle zazen shin. In this case, the shin is the character for bamboo needle used in acupuncture.

[06:46]

So the bamboo needle is associated with zazen. So there's the sense of something very precise, fine point. And there's a sense of some healing that comes with that. That with that fine point is a kind of transformation or healing that naturally follows or naturally is present with that. So this, in the course of the classical Zazen Shin, Dogen tells the story of Matsu sitting. Very familiar story. Great Buddha ancestor Matsu sitting Zazen like a mountain.

[07:54]

Steadfast. In Dogen it's like sitting still, still. Stillness within stillness. And Nanyue, his teacher, comes up and says, what is your intention in sitting Zazen? And Masu says, to become a Buddha. And I think you know the story that He's sitting there, you know, and then he hears this. He looks over and says, he sees Nanyue has picked up a piece of tile and is rubbing it on a rock. And Masu says, what are you doing? And Nanyue says, I'm polishing this tile to become a mirror.

[08:58]

using the same phrase that Matsu used, to become a Buddha. Now, a piece of tile to become a mirror. Matsu says, how can you make a mirror by polishing a piece of tile? And Nanyoi says, how can you become a Buddha by sitting zazen? Matsu is silent. And Nanui says, when the cart does not go, what do you hit? The cart or the ox? Suzuki Roshi commenting on this says, Nanui means that whatever you're doing, whatever you're doing is azen. hit the cart, hit the ox, get up, go to sleep, whatever you're doing.

[10:14]

Your ordinary mind is Zazen. So Dogen goes through line by line in comments on this in Zazen Shin, so you may sometime investigate more of Dogen's exploration of that. So this is the shift from practicing with some idea. Some idea. Oh, becoming a Buddha. So there's a word in there that is to have some aim or intention and then to make an effort to be in alignment with that aim or intention. which is to make something into something. To make something into something. And so it's pretty hard to sit, to have the motivation.

[11:21]

We encourage ourselves to sit sazan by having some aim, some intention. But the way we encourage ourselves is always somewhat of a problem. So we should know that when we encourage ourselves, we also... create some problems. And at some point, we need to drop this kind of encouragement of ourselves, this idea of getting someplace, of making this person into a better person. Because as soon as we think we're going to make this person into a better person, then we start trying to get rid of the the parts that we think are tainted, or the parts that we think are bad, unworthy. So immediately we create more of a separation, a division in ourselves.

[12:24]

This is contrary to the bodhisattva vow. The bodhisattva vow is to save all beings, including the unpleasant ones. the beings. What was it yesterday? We have this term now, sandpaper people. Special new designation, right? Oh yeah, sandpaper people. Yeah, these sandpaper people are offering their wonderful qualities. to help us, you know, help us realize how to extend the bodhisattva vow beyond the irritation of the sandpaper. So sometimes this word for non-thinking is that, to go beyond thinking.

[13:31]

Non-thinking or go beyond thinking. So non-thinking is to not believe the thoughts of sandpaper people as some substantial entity. Sandpaper people are not separate. What is actually happening is my precise experience of some nerves firing. Somewhere in this body. Some electrical stuff going on on a very subtle level. And then pretty soon we turn it into, oh, something we don't like. Some person that's irritating. But actually what's happening, if you carefully examine this, and this is what Buddhist practitioners have been doing from the beginning.

[14:35]

carefully examining what's happening in this. How is suffering created? How are we experiencing alienation from each other? How do we do that? It's much easier to think about non-thinking than to actually practice non-thinking. I think many people here are working very hard thinking about non-thinking. So maybe it's helpful. I'll interject a little story of my own. I've told this story about planting beans at a Green Gulch a few times. And so some of you may have heard it. But the context here may be a little different.

[15:36]

For me, it was a very important experience. So this was in the early farm project at Green Gulch. And we were experimenting with planting all kinds of things. I think we thought, I wonder if pinto beans will grow here. We planted pinto beans. I wonder if peanuts will grow here. We planted peanuts. Peanuts did not like green gulch. Pinto beans thought, oh, maybe. It would be nice if they were a little hotter. But anyway, I had marked out, so it was just me down there.

[16:43]

I had marked out a row and made a furrow with a hoe. I should also say I was working with a koan at the time. I was working with a koan of... To go east one mile is to go west one mile. To me that was a very confusing statement. How could that be? To go east one mile is to go west one mile. Anyway, I made this furrow and I have my pinto beans and I'm practicing mindfulness. I thought, this is a wonderful opportunity to be very focused and practice. So I was down on my knees, just kind of creeping along the ground, planting a bean, six inches apart, plant another bean, six inches apart, plant another bean.

[17:44]

I was very happy planting close to the earth. Beautiful beans, beautiful soil. And then I noticed some movement in my peripheral vision And was immediately irritated. Because I could feel there were some people coming down the road into the field at Green Gulch. Most of you maybe have been to Green Gulch. And you know the road comes down through the field. And I didn't look at them. But I could feel them and I could see them peripherally. And so I'm trying to concentrate now. Six inches. Pinto bean. Those people are getting closer. Six inches. I know they're going to just come and they're going to say something stupid to me. Six inches.

[18:49]

Another pinto bean. I get closer and closer. Sure enough, pretty soon they're standing right at the end of the furrow and I'm moving toward them. And I'm keeping my head down, hoping that they just go on, you know. But pretty soon one of them says, what are you doing? And I felt like screaming. Can't you see I'm planting beans? What a stupid question. I knew they were going to ask a stupid question. But I didn't scream at them. I just screamed within myself. And I said, planting beans. And the response was, oh.

[19:51]

And then the next question was, which way to the beach? And again I thought, yeah, right. Why don't you just walk downhill? I was really annoyed. And they said, but I said, I didn't say, I said, just follow the road, you know. So I was polite and at the same time I had this rage inside and then as they were walking away I realized to go east one mile is to go west one mile. Suddenly I knew that they had been there all along. They had been in this world.

[20:55]

They were already present all along. I don't know if I can explain this. I don't think I can explain it. But my realization was that it was me who had arbitrarily set up a boundary that excluded them and that that was a false idea. It was a delusion that I was by myself. I had the delusion that I was by myself and that that everything else in the universe didn't exist. That I had my own universe that I was in control of, sort of, trying to keep my attention mindfully on planting beans. And I thought that this was virtuous.

[21:56]

This was a virtuous thing. I wouldn't have said that exactly to myself. I had that feeling. This is a good thing to do. This is something that Zen Center hierarchy has asked me to do. Go out and plant a bunch of things and see what grows. And so I'm out there doing that. And so I'm the support of the Sangha. And it's quiet and peaceful. And I'm concentrated and doing mindfulness practice. And so it's all quite virtuous. And then these other people show up. As if from another universe. So I had the idea that I knew where I was. And that other things were some distance away. So then I became very grateful for these people.

[22:58]

These bodhisattvas showing up who might have been sandpaper people if I had known at the time. People asking stupid questions. One kind of sandpaper people. The feeling was of gratitude for them showing up. Innocently. They're innocently just enjoying Green Gulch. They're not trying to bother me. Even if they hadn't been trying to bother me. They're now already included in the Bodhisattva vow. They're already included. The Bodhisattva vow basically means there's just one universe. even though there may be other universes, those are also included in this one universe.

[24:02]

This is our understanding of the universe. And when we say we vow to save all beings, this is... We know that we're saying something that's impossible in the usual sense. In the usual sense, to go east one mile, you're farther away from west one mile, right? But when you understand that this is zazen including everything, then you understand to go east one mile is to go west one mile. And that people showing up can never be an interruption. I can make them into an interruption by my own tendency to exclude. But according to the bodhisattva vow, They can't be an interruption. They're already there. Suffering beings. I've already included them.

[25:07]

I've already vowed to awaken with them. So this is supporting the understanding of Dogen saying When things move along with your non-thinking, they are completed in the realm of non-merging. So nothing more needs to happen. When this practice of non-thinking is realized, then anything that appears is immediately intimate. Anything that appears is already as if it's part of your own body. So walking along and rocks falling down the mountain, this is already my own body, doesn't mean that I don't get out of the way.

[26:12]

Getting out of the way is also what happens in one body. One body has lots of space. So he says here in Dogen's poem, says, emergence is immediate. So if something shows up, there's no delay, no hesitation. As it is completed in the realm of non-merging, completeness itself is realization. So then he was moving to say, this is realization. That everything is already complete. That your zazen lacks nothing. Then he says, when its emergence is intimate, there is no separateness.

[27:17]

Well, that's basically self-explanatory. When completeness reveals itself, it is neither real nor apparent. So this is a tricky part here. When completeness is revealed or completeness is seen, completeness reveals itself. One might have the thought, oh, this is real. One might shift from non-thinking into thinking. and identify, oh, ah, this is real. Now I see what's real. And it's wonderful to see what's real. It's wonderful to see the difference between real and apparent. But he says here, excuse me, it is neither real nor apparent.

[28:21]

So there may be a feeling of completeness revealing itself. So just as this experience I'm telling you about, when the people, the annoying people turn into bodhisattvas who have just offered me their teaching simply by their presence and their stupid questions, you know. offering me their stupid questions is a teaching for me. And simply by doing that, it feels like this is a revelation. Something is suddenly revealed to me that I was blind to only a moment before. A moment before, I thought they were separate. Now I feel deep gratitude and connection. So that's a point where it's good to check that out with your teacher so that you don't just languish in reality.

[29:34]

That is thinking reality. So he says, he clarifies it here, Dogen clarifies it, saying, when completeness reveals itself, it is. neither real nor apparent. So don't get caught in thinking real or apparent. When there is, he continues, when there is immediacy without separateness, when there is immediacy without separateness, immediacy is dropping away. They put it in quotes here. This translation is by Kaz Tanahashi. And Philip Whelan actually helped him with this. And Michael Wenger actually was, I think, working with most of the rest of the text. But with this poem, Philip Whelan. But, of course, this is the phrase that Dogen uses many times.

[30:45]

Dropping. Dropping away. dropping away. So this is dropping away with no obstacle. So no obstacle. There's no sense of resistance. Any resistance is dropped away. Most of our lives, I think, if we are listening and paying attention, we're feeling that we're up against something even slightly or subtly, or being slightly impinged upon, and are making a kind of a reversal to try to get away from that. But here, what happens is there's no

[31:46]

there's no attempt to get away from that. The experience is immediately that resistance drops away. So, then he says, this is, what this is, realization beyond real or apparent, is effort without desire. I think the first time I heard the phrase effort without desire, I heard from Darlene Cohen, one of my old dear Dharma colleagues. And she worked to clarify. And she said, we are... This was many years ago, maybe, I don't know, 20 years ago or something.

[32:51]

Somehow we were talking. And she said, my practice is effort without desire. And it really struck me. How is this? How is this? What's this like to make effort without desire? And effort without desire, as I've come to understand it, is total effort. Every cell of this body-mind is totally engaged, fully engaged. To have desire is something extra. not fully engaged, actually. It's very interesting to consider how having a desire, not really so much having a desire, but being caught or attached or having a little bit of, it's kind of the opposite maybe of sandpaper people, of having

[34:18]

The gluey. Gluey sensation. Adhesive. Post-it note. If you even put a little post-it note on that thought. That much clinging. That much clinging has a shadow that leaves something else out. Very interesting. So this is Dogen saying this effort Without desire is this essential practice of zazen. I mean, this is all the point of zazen. So he's working through various stages. It's like turning a jewel, turning a crystal, and looking at it from different sides. Coming down to effort without desire. And it may be that this is a very helpful practice. for you to consider how is it to let every cell of my body fully engage without any desire to have anything, to possess anything, to get anywhere.

[35:39]

All this effort is to be fully awake right now to be fully present right now. Any little part of me that's holding back. Any little part of me that has some fear, some apprehension. Any little part of me that would rather not be here right now and would rather be thinking of something else. Any little part of me that starts criticizing this right now. This can't be it. Enlightenment is supposed to be different than this. So any little part that's involved in any of those desires, and of course desires includes all the hindrances. So

[36:47]

We could say that desire is shorthand for all of the desire or ill will or sleepiness or agitation or doubt that's kind of undermining doubt or cynicism as I defined it in some previous talk. So all those are released When it comes up, oh, okay, I see. I'm not going to buy into that one. I'm not going to buy into that hindrance. I'm not going to buy into that one. But then who is this I that's even saying that? So at some point the I has to be simply seen. And it's usually kind of embarrassed. The ego is usually kind of embarrassed. a little embarrassing and so once it's once the ego is completely seen then the ego says okay I give up I don't need to do anything but that's because the ego the ego is not rejected the ego is not rejected again this is not excluding anything some people say our practice is to get rid of ego I think that's really means

[38:15]

getting rid of any attachment to ego or rejection of ego. Either one is an attachment. So to not be involved with the I, me, mind, all those ways of clinging. It's helpful to identify, oh, where does that live in this being? And simply see it. I was saying earlier, make friends with yourself. So this is also making friends with, I'd say, for every part of you to be at peace, it needs to feel befriended. including ego, needs to feel befriended, understood, and completely accepted.

[39:21]

And then it can take a rest. Then the ego can be one of the many, many, many parts that participate in effort without desire. Effort without desire is a bodhisattva vow. Another way I keep saying these various ways of saying bodhisattva vow. Effort without desire. So when the bodhisattva is saving all beings, there's no desire to save all beings. The bodhisattva simply saves all beings. is simply including all beings with no, no, no barrier, no separation. So this is a very subtle practice, actually.

[40:28]

So subtle, maybe I'll stop talking about it. in a minute. It's just a reminder that this is you becoming you, completely. And Suzuki Roshi says, Zazen is you becoming yourself. When you become you, Zen is Zen. And there's that story that Blanche tells of her own conquest. or conquest in Zazen. I've heard Blanche tell it slightly differently many different times. And you've probably heard her tell it too. But anyway, remember? Remember? She said, she went in to Suzuki Roshi. She was quite proud of herself. And she said, I can do it.

[41:34]

I can count my breath. And he said, don't ever say you can do it. You don't do zazen. Zazen does zazen. I made quite an impression on Blanche at the time. So this is another way of saying this, give the ego a rest. Something is paying attention. Something is aware. Sometimes I think, you know, why are we human beings here? Why are birds here and why are porpoises here and why are elephants here?

[42:37]

Very interesting, you know. Somehow there's this effort going on. I don't know that there's particular desire. There's some effort going on. by the universe to be aware of itself. I can't say why that's happening, but it is happening, that the universe is finding a way to be aware of itself within itself, within its vastness, to be aware of and to be aware of vastness. To be completely one with a particular is also to be aware of boundlessness. Like William Blake saying, see a universe in a grain of sand.

[43:39]

So we say, you know, there's no distance. There's no separation. And yet there is particular. There is you and me. So when we meet each other, this is a whole universe meeting itself. It's deeply satisfying to meet each other in this way of the whole universe meeting whole universe. It's so satisfying that there are all these cases of the Zen stories. People meeting each other. Matsu and Nanyue meeting each other. And having this investigation of what's going on with Zazen.

[44:49]

Matsu is completely true, saying, I am becoming Buddha. Or I am become Buddha, setting Zazen. He's completely, completely correct. Nanyue is completely correct in saying, how is it possible? How is that possible? That's not possible. You are already you. You are already who you are. So this is a practice of profound confidence. Deeply, deeply, profoundly realizing this is just the way it is. And this is already completely supporting me.

[45:57]

To see things as it is, is to feel some gratitude in this moment for this life. And to fully participate with it. So here at the end of the road, sometimes it feels like, oh, we're separate from the universe. Or we're separate from the news of the day. Whatever's making the headlines. I think it was Thoreau. Henry David Thoreau said, don't read the daily news. Read the eternities.

[47:04]

The daily news is pretty much the same anyway, right? Over and over and over again. People creating suffering for themselves. But here we are right in the middle. of the daily news. The daily news is no distance at all from where we are. So tomorrow I'd like to say we'll have one more day of silence. The ninth, the last day, let's make it a silent day. the Dohans will have to adjust. Until the evening, we'll have some noise. We'll have a Shosan ceremony so people can ask questions and investigate what's happening in that way.

[48:21]

If there's anything that isn't clear from what I've just said, I can say, are there any questions right now? And then just to clarify. Oh, a hand went up over here. Say that again. Aren't we all sandpaper people or what? Yeah. That's how we know sandpaper people, by the stuff that we do. So we all do stuff for each other so that we can appear as sandpaper people. But maybe it's useful sometimes to know that the person is not the behavior that they're doing.

[49:29]

In relative relationships, it's helpful sometimes to make that distinction. Oh, you're not actually a sandpaper person. You're just doing sandpaper stuff. You're just rubbing me the wrong way. But that doesn't necessarily define you. But often we do make that mistake. So I'm glad you pointed out that we make that mistake, that we think the person is... way I feel rubbed the wrong way. So in case someone here in the room has a tendency to fall into that misunderstanding, it's good to know. The person is not their behavior. There are a lot more than that. That I would explain it a little?

[50:51]

Just a little. Do you mean the line that says it's... Complete in non-merging. Moves along with non-thinking is complete in non-merging. You got it. That's wonderful. Isn't Dogen wonderful? He'll go along and you'll think, I'm getting it, I'm getting it, and then he'll say, what? Yeah. Stay with that. Continue to investigate that. Yeah.

[51:58]

Speak up. Yeah, you might even be in a different There may be a whole different set of conditions. You might be in a different state of mind receiving it. So that's another place of discernment, right?

[53:00]

So yeah, behavior is not necessarily what we think it is. So not only isn't the person the person we think they are just because they're behaving the way they're behaving, the behavior is not what we think it is. In other words, the way I'm impacted by whatever someone's doing is just the way I'm impacted by it at that moment and so to even say it's a sandpaper experience well one time it may be a sandpaper experience and the next time it might be you know it might feel like a slap one time and then the next thing that kind of really the same thing may feel like a love pad you know so yeah right just feels tingly you know just feels tingly but if the shuso jumped up and did that to me then I might feel oh it just feels tingly or I might have other thoughts that are about the shuso you know or that are just about the behavior you know

[54:22]

So to notice that difference, there's the experience, and it feels like that particular impact. And then within a split second, we have a whole interpretation. So it's not just the person, the behavior, but it's all many conditions, many conditions that contribute to what happens. That's why it's hard for a Zen person to go to a court of law and be on the jury. It's hard. I've never been able to get on the jury. My wife actually is on the jury for a whole month on a murder trial. She says it's pretty hard stuff to listen to. But she can't talk about it until it's over.

[55:23]

But yeah, when people are attributing cause and effect, it's kind of, go back to my original word, clunky. It's kind of clunky. So-and-so did this to me. What did they actually do to me? Was it something done to me or is that just the way I feel about it, you know? And the way I feel about it may be different because it's that person and not that other person. So all of that, you know, is this very, very, say, worthy of careful investigation to know how one constructs a divided world. out of a unified experience, which is the way our experience always is.

[56:27]

So when we're sitting, let me just say one more thing about non-thinking. It's a very helpful gate. The gate to non-thinking, we could say, is sense experience. So if you bring your attention in Zazen to immediate, Sense experience. All of your senses. Skin. Sound. Taste. Internal sensations in the body. Just to be in that world of the senses. is a way to, say, release some of the holding on the thinking mind, the usual thinking mind. Suzuki Roshi, I was very interested in the teaching of Charlotte Silver, who was taught sensory awareness.

[57:32]

I won't go into all that. But anyway, that's just a reference for those of you who know something about that. the whole cultivation of sensory awareness is a gate, I'd say, a kind of a gate to non-thinking. So it's helpful to find, and also to know, it's also a gate to, the sensory experience is very helpful then to make the discernment for the kind of thing that, let's say again, you were talking about. to know exactly what is this experience before I interpret it. Before I interpret it as somebody did something to me. This happens very fast. Our ability to create the whole universe is so fast.

[58:38]

We can't see it happen. It's happened so fast. It's just amazing. We have this capacity. And we think it's continuous. But when you really look carefully, you begin to say, no, there's moments, [...] and we're freezing things, making things substantial. And we have to do this. This is who we are as human beings. We have to do this. At the same time, when we begin to believe it only in the way of the related dualistic way, when we believe that's the only way, then we have big problems. We don't see how we're also free. We don't see that the way that we are related is also the way we're free.

[59:41]

So we have to do a lot of work. It's very difficult, this work we're doing. We have to do a lot of work to penetrate the veil of that constructed world that we're constantly, almost constantly, almost constantly doing. There are little glimpses sometimes through that. Oh yeah, maybe not quite like that. know there are several other hands that came up. Caitlin. We're already doing it. We're already living in the world of the daily news and we're also already living in the world of

[60:43]

of oneness. But because we get preoccupied by the world of the daily news, we get preoccupied by the daily news and make it more than it is. Pulp fiction. That could be a few other stories. But anyway, we make it more than it is. And so we don't notice the stillness because we get involved and preoccupied. So the preoccupation covers our, what we say, covers our Buddha nature, our true nature. So we stop. We have this practice of stopping and beginning to notice, oh, yeah, the mind is mind is preoccupied the mind is doing this the mind is doing this what happens if I if I don't just do that but come to being right here present moment Hara so we're moving moving our whole belief system from the head through the whole heart chakra to the Hara Hara is already happening

[62:12]

It's not that it's not already happening, but we don't know it because we can't understand it. And it's not the same language. It's not the language of the daily news. It's a whole different, say, non-language. But it's already our life. Does that make sense? Dogen just said? Neither real nor apparent. Neither real nor apparent. So the daily news, what we're calling daily news, that's what he's saying is apparent. The daily news is what's apparent. The unified, the universe is real.

[63:14]

But we don't divide that. And when we go back to this study, continuing our study of Sandokai, this is what this Sandokai is all about. We're not stuck on one side, real or apparent. We're investigating the apparent, investigating the real. We're seeing how the real and the apparent are actually not two. Excuse me, I got into saying neither again. In a way, it's good if it kind of makes sense, but it can't make complete sense. If it makes complete sense, then that's not it. Then that's just apparent. Things make sense, you know. in the world of the apparent and so this is a practice of destroying what makes sense without rejecting it destroying it in the sense of okay I'm not going to build my life on what is conditional I'm actually going to build my life on the bodhisattva vow which is unconditional

[64:48]

Maybe I'll leave it with that. And we'll go have a good rest of the eighth day, enjoying the mountain, enjoying the sunlight, enjoying the rain, enjoying the body, breath, sailing along in our big Sashin ship. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click Giving.

[65:35]

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