This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. Welcome. Part two, work practice. One of the things that I really noticed it's particularly noticeable here at Tassahara, and you may not notice it so much, is how much priming is going on. Do you know the word priming? So doing a chant primes the atmosphere for a certain kind of feeling to happen. Priming, priming. Like priming the pump. Like there is a study done that shows if you have a room... If you put a backpack on a table and then you ask people to solve math problems and you take the same room, same table, and you put a computer on it and have people solve math problems, they'll do better.

[01:16]

They'll be more effective if there's a computer there than there's a backpack there. Because the backpack is sort of priming. for being outside or going on an adventure, a computer is sort of priming for concentrating on stuff. So with that, I want to try something. I want to try to prime you in a different way. So if you could stand up and find someone, find a partner, and you can even stay standing with your partner. So find someone. You can just turn to the person next to you, or if there's not someone next to you, find someone. Raise your hand if you need... need a partner and find each other. Yeah, everyone got a partner? Okay. You can be my partner. Good, and you can come demonstrate. Come on up. Okay, so we're going to play a little game, and we're going to demonstrate. You start by counting to three.

[02:17]

So one, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. Try it, it's simple. Okay. All right. You all got that? No, stay standing. That's just part one. Now, so Ian will demonstrate. So part two, is instead of saying one, we're going to clap. So, no, so I clap you. That's good. He was just telling you how not to do it. Don't do that. So, two, three, two, three. So, two, three, two, three.

[03:20]

Go. Just clap on one. Clap on one. Clap on one. Okay, you all got that, right? All right, now we're going to... Now this time, clap on one, snap fingers on two, and say three. We'll demonstrate. Three. Three. Three. Easy. Go for it. Three. Three.

[04:24]

Three. Three. Okay, that's it. Give yourself a big hand and come sit down. How was that?

[05:30]

What did you notice about doing that? Anything? It provided a lot more concentration than I thought it would just by the description. You're like, this isn't that hard, really? Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that Monu is doing like one, two, three was sort of difficult and then the clap one, two, three, or two, three, but the clap snap three was probably very simple for us. We rolled. Yeah, we rolled from the last one. Rolled. Excellent. You got it. You got it. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed it was more guided by like my auditory recall. I guess like I came to know what it should sound like and then I did it and sometimes was surprised to get us Interesting. Clap and talk. Interesting. Yeah. Well, great. Yeah. As soon as we could do it and I felt confident and my ego moved in with its pride, I messed up.

[06:30]

Yes, I was thinking about... Yeah. What are some of those that... Other than the magisterial style where you start out by lecturing, you regularly start out by giving us this kind of exercise, which generates a certain adhesion in the group to what's going on. And I wondered if that wasn't the principal goal involved in this kind of exercise. This is true. You're giving away all my secrets. No, this is one of the things that I've... I've learned is that often, in fact, I was joking yesterday when I said people might not be happy coming here because I'm just not going to stand up here and talk. In fact, I'm going to get people talking. And often there can be a little resistance to that, especially if you come with a certain sense of, oh, I'm coming to a class, I'm going to sit in the back and hide, and then suddenly I'm asking you to do stuff and talk to each other.

[07:37]

But once people get over that a little bit of resistance. So there's a lot of things that are happening. One, not so much here. Often people who I'm teaching, people will come into the room and nobody knows anybody. Or there's some nervousness. So it's a way of just getting connection with another person. And it also sets the tone that I'm not just up here lecturing. This is really about you. And in some way... I was thinking how, as I was reflecting on yesterday's class, my feeling is that it's like we're all in dialogue with each other. I feel like I'm in a dialogue with each of you, and you're in a dialogue with each other, and you actually get to do that some with each other. And then also, so today, doing something that's kind of fun, and I wanted to prime a little bit for both for something a little more fun and also for thinking differently. thinking creatively. Because again, one of the things that I said yesterday, I think most of you are here, but I think there's some people who weren't here, that there is, it requires some creativity and some thinking outside of our usual patterns when you put together these two things, work and practice.

[08:54]

Because again, we think about, especially in this tradition, this tradition is so steeped in the sense of non-attainment and not knowing. Sometimes it can overdo it, but it's something that I really appreciate about this practice that's sort of steeped in that sensibility. And as soon as you say work, work is about attainment. It's about getting stuff done. It's about some kind of transformation. So there's an inherent conflict in a certain way. But in another way, I was also reflecting on... One of the ways that I think about zazen practice, about meditation practice, is that it's the practice of cultivating trust in ourselves, that we're cultivating trust. So I think it's a beautiful way to think about practice, that we're learning to trust the body, the breath, the thoughts, that we can be there with whatever comes up, that it's all okay, and that we're just noticing, we're not judging,

[10:02]

And there's a kind of processing that's happening. And the same thing happens in our work. We can approach work in exactly the same way. Whether it's working with others, working by ourselves, whatever we're doing, we can think of it as kind of cultivating a deep trust in ourselves. So I think this is one way that work practice and practice are very much not in contradiction to each other, very much aligned. I wanted to start with a story. This is the story of when I left Tassajara and ventured out into the world. I found myself in New York City looking for a job. And I had just spent 10 years living at the Zen Center and all that was on my resume was my Zen practices and that I had been director of this Zen monastery. I noticed in New York it didn't open a lot of doors.

[11:03]

And one of the experiences that I had was I remember I really needed a job. And I went to this temporary agency because I knew how to, you know, I was good with the keyboard. At those days they used to call it typing. I could type really quickly and accurately. And I went into this, this was Midtown Manhattan, And I went into this high-rise building up to the 67th floor and said I was there applying for a job. And I handed in my resume, and I was out in the waiting area. And out of the corner of my vision and hearing, I could see a whole group of people were around the table. There's a little bit of whispering and pointing and a little laughter. And I overheard someone say, there's a Zen monk here looking for a job. I didn't get that job.

[12:05]

And what happened is I started to get more and more creative with my resume. So that at some point, my resume was that I was the director of human resources of a conference center called Tassajara that no one in New York ever heard of. And at the time, And I remember handing my resume to this woman, and she looks at my resume, she looks at me, and she says, who are you kidding? I know Tassajara. It's a Zen monastery. And I'm going to hire you. Because I said, despite your resume, I trust Zen students. That was my first job in New York City. Yes. Oh, longer than I wished. Then I came back to the West Coast after that. So what I thought we'd do today is just really briefly review some of the, kind of just very touch on the models that I presented yesterday, and then I'll present kind of a new model, and we'll do some work on this new model.

[13:21]

I mean, I realized when I looked at the things that I presented yesterday, I could have chosen any one of them, and we could have just stayed with one and gone really deeply. But the choice I made and the choice I'm making is to do more of an overview, to give you a lot of different ideas and information. And hopefully, you know, hopefully something, you know, will stick. You'll choose something you'll want to follow up with. You'll choose that you'll want to go deeper and practice with. So the things I presented yesterday, I was presenting these different models of work practice, ways from the Zen tradition and outside the Zen tradition that people have looked at integrating these two ideas of work and practice and integrating them to make them one idea. So work practice is like one thing, not two things. So the first I presented was the classic Zen koan, you know, wash your bowls. It's about trying to receive the teachings, but basically the message here is if you want to practice, pay attention to physical activity.

[14:31]

That whatever work you're doing is practice. That's where the practice is. It's not someplace else. So this is a beautiful model, and we could spend days just talking about this idea, this koan. It's a beautiful koan. Actually, there's a commentary. It's a beautiful commentary on this koan. It says, it's a great kitchen commentary. Because it is so very clear, it takes so long to realize. If you know that flame is fire, you'll find your rice has long been cooked. Because it is so very clear, it takes so long to realize. If you know that flame is fire, you'll find your rice has long been cooked. a little a little mysterious but basically the the message there is practice everything is right there right there in whatever you're doing don't wait so wash your bowl talked a little bit about the Tenzo Kyokan Dogen's three practices for practicing in the kitchen three minds joyful mind grandmother mind and wise mind then I talked a little bit about the motivation model

[15:49]

of Daniel Pink, where he says, pay attention to things like autonomy, mastery, and purpose, and how these have proven to be much better motivators than externals like money or fame, that it's really the intrinsic motivators to pay attention to them. Notice what your intrinsic motivators are. I talked a little bit about this fellow who, again, his name is Otto Scharmer. And he wrote a book called Leading from the Emerging Future. And he presents this model that he calls From Ego System to Ecosystem. And what I really like about his work is that he's looking at real systemic change. He's asking the questions like, how did the food system get to be the way it is? How did the way that we deal with food... generally in this country, get to be so messed up?

[16:50]

How did we make food into a thing that's not healthy? And if you look at the systems, from the manufacturing systems to the economic systems to the political systems, they're all messed up. And in a way, it's up to us. So there's two ways that I think we can deal with these systems. One, we can stay in the monastery, which I think is a... a good response, or we can go out there and try and change them. So it's just asking these questions. How do we change systems? I presented the difficult conversation model as a way of looking at work, paying attention to the content, the feelings, and the identity. And we talked about the importance of looking at how we identify with our work, that You know, when we're, you know, and this is because so much of what we're doing in work is with other people.

[17:51]

And there's so much happening. And usually we're just paying attention to the content. But usually what's really going on is the feeling level and the identity level. I talked a little bit about Dogen. Dogen's, in a way, this is a prescription, a beautiful prescription for practice. To study the way is to study the self. to study the self is to forget the self to forget the self is to be actualized with all beings this is a great work seeing work as a way of studying the self and of losing ourselves just being free of ego free of grasping right in the middle of our work and being intimately actualized and connected to others and then lastly I talked a little bit about Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey and we did a little bit of work around the hero's journey, talking about what's your calling, who are your guides, what are your trials and difficulties, how do you find your power, and then how do you integrate.

[18:57]

So, today, I want to talk about... Actually, it's something I've been... I've had the great... pleasure of getting to do some writing while I'm here and I've been working on a book and the book is about what I'm about to present which is the seven practices for for now we can call it for integrating work practice for integrating work and practice seven practices and these particular these actually come via my good friend and one of my teachers Norman Fisher that Actually, I called Norman the other day because I was starting to feel guilty that I was writing this book about something that he had said. And I called him and I told him what I was doing. And he said, I have no memory of ever having said any of those things. Thank you.

[20:03]

He said, but they are pretty good. They are good. I like them. And he said, yes, you should write a book. about these things. And the context was that I brought Norman into... I was working with about a dozen of Google engineers who I was training to be mindfulness teachers. And I had asked Norman to say something to these teachers that might act as guides for them to be... Like, what do they need to know? What might be useful? for someone who's not a meditation teacher to become a meditation teacher? How might they practice with that? And I noticed I was looking at this, I was sitting in a room with these 12 Google people and a few other people who I was working with, and I noticed on the agenda it said, you know, Norman gives talk. And I realized that Norman hadn't seen the agenda, and he didn't know that he was supposed to say something.

[21:04]

So I put it in front of him, and I pointed to it, and I watched him literally get a napkin out and start taking some notes. And that's where these seven principles come from, and why he doesn't remember them. Because he just pulled them out of his head and wrote them, but they really stuck with me. And they've been, like, I've been talking about, lecturing about, and actually in my workplace, everyone has these seven principles. on their desk as a list, and it says the ways in which I want us to work together. Okay, so here we go. Principle number one is love the work. Love the work. And by the work, we mean love practicing, love sitting, love awareness practice, love compassion practice. But however you look at the work, The work of practice. Like, bring love to it.

[22:05]

Like, really bring love to it. That's number one. The second is do the work. Right? That you actually have to have a practice. You have to have a daily, some kind of a daily sitting practice. Some kind of to-do retreats. And to actually be looking for ways to bring the work into your daily life. That it's not quite enough. It's not sufficient to sit on the cushion. You actually need to be practicing in your work life. So the second is to actually do the work. The third is something that will be familiar to you, which is don't become an expert. Don't try and become an expert. So this is true. Don't try to become an expert at work-life practice. Keep it fresh. So in part, that little game that we did is a way... We all want to be experts. We want to be good. We want to get it right away. But the problem is, as soon as we get it right away, we stop appreciating it.

[23:09]

We stop paying attention. I love doing zazen instruction. It's one of my favorite things to do. And I particularly like teaching people to bow for the first time. So let's all bow together. Let's do a little bow. And can you remember what it was like the first time that you were shown and how kind of awkward or magical or fresh, like there's something about doing something for the first time that I hope maybe for most of you was like that, like you'll never get to do that game again for the first time. But there's something about bringing a sense of freshness and aliveness to whatever you do. This is another great way of looking at work practice and practice in general.

[24:10]

So one way of looking at, one way I like, like when I'm teaching what practice is, one of the ways I talk about it is it's learning to see that everything is actually fresh and alive. It's not something we have to add. It's like Suzuki Roshi, in one of the early chapters of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, he says, you know, when you breathe out, imagine that this is going to be your last breath. It's your last breath. And you might be surprised with the next inhale, that that sense. And then if there is another inhale, it's like, oh, the sense of surprise. So to bring that kind of... freshness to cutting carrots or cleaning cabins or writing emails or whatever we're doing. This sense of aliveness. So principle three is don't try to become an expert. The fourth is don't avoid your own pain.

[25:11]

Don't avoid your own pain. So often we skip over, even though we're all in the suffering business, but still... We want, it's so easy to not want to go there. So if you're, you know, it can be, there can be pain that comes up no matter what you're doing, whether you're teaching or, you know, or working or sitting in zazen, like to not avoid it. And the fifth is to not avoid the pain of others. Like notice, notice other people's pain. So again, even right in the middle of getting stuff done, people have feelings, people have identity issues, stuff happens. So just to pay attention to your own pain and to other people's pain. The sixth, which is particularly good for work practice, is depend on others.

[26:19]

Depend on others. This is so true in, like here at Hasahara, you know, it's like an, it's a major event that it's happening here, and everyone needs to do their part, or things, or it doesn't work. And that we really do, it takes a certain, it's a certain skill to really give yourself over to others. So it's like, I was talking to Jacqueline before class about how, you know, In the kitchen, there's certain ways that people tell you how to do stuff. There's certain ideas that the cooks have about how they want things cut and just depend on them. Now, it doesn't mean that if you have some question about it, it doesn't mean that you don't question anything. It's not the army here. In the army, they train you. You're supposed to just accept everything as orders. That's a little bit different.

[27:21]

But there is a sensibility of opening up and seeing that we are dependent on others for almost everything if we start to really pay attention to it. And the seventh is keep making it simpler. Keep making it simpler. Again, our minds tend toward complication. The world, you might have noticed, the world really has tended toward complication when you... We're so lucky here, but don't have phones in our pockets and emails going. But you'll have to contend with that the moment you step out of here. But even here, it can get pretty complicated with our relationships and the jobs we want or the jobs we don't want or the schedule. So it's easy to make things complicated, even here. Amazing. Even here at Tassajara. So to move toward... Simplicity.

[28:22]

So these are the seven practices that I want to suggest as ways of integrating work and practice. Questions, concerns, ideas about anything? Yeah. Yes. Ideas of motivation. And I guess, like, what's the motivation for doing the work? Because you could be very present and very effective, I think, with other people. And the work that you're doing, you do a very beautiful job. And that's sort of just a part of what I see this practice as being about, which is liberation and a lot of these very deep existential ideas, which I think for anyone to touch deeply it's like really a big opening process that's like very intense and yeah does that say enough yeah I think I think it's a really interesting question the question of motivation and so there's a story that some of you might know this story about the three bricklayers which is about just about this so it's

[29:49]

There are three bricklayers, and someone goes up to the first bricklayer and says, what are you doing? And the first bricklayer says, I'm laying bricks. I'm really paying attention to where I put every brick. And the person goes up to the second bricklayer and says, what are you doing? And he says, I'm making a living. My motivation is I'm doing this because I have to support my family. And he goes up to the third bricklayer and says, what are you doing? And the third bricklayer says, I'm helping people connect with God. I'm building a church. So we have three people doing the same activity, and they each see it completely differently. And my commentary on this story is that if I were the supervisor, I'd be concerned about this one who was connecting people with God. And I'd be... And I'd be a little bit concerned, too, about the one who's just paying attention to where he's putting the bricks.

[30:51]

Like, how does he know where to put the bricks? And has he looked at the blueprint? And then the one who's there to support his family is like, come on, no, we've got work to do. But really, those are kind of three primary motivations that are almost always there. That there's the actual activity. right, to be present for the activity, then there's the, as you were saying, there's some larger purpose, some larger, it might be freedom. It might be that we're wanting self-actualization or maybe we're building a church. Maybe we're creating, you know, we're part of supporting the Zen center in some positive way. And there might be many, many other motivations, some very pure and wholesome and some maybe not so pure. So, to notice that. And I think as much as you can to bring what I think of as more of those wholesome, larger motivations, but at the same time, there's some others that can be useful to recognize.

[31:56]

I imagine that the way you're describing it would create a healthy enough environment to maybe begin to see things you haven't seen before. Right. Yes, I think it's interesting in work practice to I think of it like I have this image of a lens. So it's like it's to open up, to be able to take the lens wide, like to see what is my largest, in what way is this self-actualization? In what way is this helping Zen center? In what way is this helping put the food on the table? And then like, okay, but to pay attention to what's right in front of me. And that it's, again, it's similar. I think of Zazen as the same way, right? In Zazen practice, sometimes we're opening up that and opening to, you know, that we're there in some kind of open, transcendent way. And other times it's like focusing on the breath. Yeah, Michael.

[32:58]

I just wanted to ask about two of the points that I find be the most tricky. Point three, but don't become an expert, where I think that, you know, it's real easy to not be... fixed in your ideas when you're first starting to learn something because you just know that so it's almost like humility and expertise have to rise up together somehow and that's a very tricky proposition yes and then the sixth one where you say depend on others and i find that it's real easy to think that that's somebody else's job or people should help me out or the system should work better or whatever or to be the lone cowboy i'm gonna take care of it all nobody else can do it and Those are the two extremes I find all the time with myself and others. And I don't know, the balance in those two areas to me seems to be very elusive. Yeah, I think in either case, what I love about the work practice is that if you're paying attention, it will show you what your tendency is. So if you're like, oh, I really want to be an expert.

[34:01]

They should all be beginners of mine, but I really want to be the expert. Or... Or maybe going too far the other way and a kind of false humility. Because we also do, you know, in a way by, you know, like one of the principles I presented by Daniel Pink is mastery. So there is something about we will get better and better at whatever we're doing, whether it's cabin cleaning or kitchens. But no matter where we are, right, there's always, it can be really helpful and useful to keep that, to keep making it fresh, to keep being open. to what can we learn? What's there to learn? What keeps it fresh for you? Oh, I find that it's not hard because I find it so humbling, like leadership. Like a lot of my work is with people and these people are really complicated, I'm noticing.

[35:03]

Working with people is really... I find it really satisfying, and I keep being surprised by my relationships with people, whether it's people I work with or even my children or my wife. So paying attention, paying attention and being open to being surprised, and I'm constantly surprised, keeps making it fresh. Have you found a balance with depending on others, depending on yourself? I'm pretty good at both of those, I find. I don't feel like I have it totally worked out, but I noticed that... You're not an expert at it. I'm definitely not an expert at it. I can be really self-reliant when I need to be. I can get into that I'm going to do it state. And then sometimes I'll I'll go too far and I'll say, no, I really need to ask for help here.

[36:06]

So that's a skill that I've had to learn, is to actually ask for help. Okay, let's try something. Can everybody stand up? And without talking, I'll just find someone, ideally someone that you don't know, and have a seat with the person. And then I'll give you some instructions. Raise your hand if you need a partner so you can find each other. It's okay. It's all right. You'll get to know them even more. Everyone have... Are we an even number? Everyone good? Okay. So we're going to do... For those who were here yesterday, I think we'll do it similarly.

[37:11]

We'll have each person... Each person is going to have three minutes to talk During that three minutes, the other person is not... Actually, let's do it a little bit different, slightly different. We'll call this generous listening. Generous listening. So it's okay, it's actually okay if you want to say something, ask something, but don't take the energy away. Don't say, oh yeah, I know how that is. Keep the energy on the person who's talking. But it's okay if you want to comment or ask a question. So it's not as strict as we were yesterday. But each person will have three minutes. So the suggested topic is... So when you think of these seven... I've just presented seven practices. Love the work. Do the work. Don't become an expert. Don't avoid your pain. Don't avoid others' pain. depend on others and keep making it simpler.

[38:13]

Which one or two of those kind of draws you? Pick one or two that have some juice for you that you might want to bring into your practice, into your life in some way. And just describe, like, what might that look like? Which one or two might you choose? what might be difficult about actually practicing with one or two of these, and what might support you. That's topic number one. Topic number two is anything you want to talk about. Because it's a real gift to have someone else's attention for a few minutes. So there might be something that's really up for you that you just want to talk about. So again, we're We're practicing. We're practicing listening. We're practicing speaking. Again, you might... It's okay if you don't... You don't have to try and have it together with what you say.

[39:19]

It's okay to be awkward. You might surprise yourself. And we're practicing listening and connecting with another person. Okay? Any questions? So let's just all take a couple breaths together. And I'll do the timing. How about... How about this time, who's ever, let's see, who's ever got the cooler shoes on can go first. Who's ever got the cooler shoes? They can go first. However you want to define. Okay, so who's ever going to go first, go ahead and I'll ring a bell in three minutes, so go ahead. She says, what do you do? She says, what do you do?

[40:26]

She says, what do you do? That's a pinch. Yeah, it's [...] a pinch. Yeah, Try it out. What would happen to you?

[41:35]

Thank you. I've had a big sleep bar yet. I've had a big sleep bar yet. I've had a big sleep. I have feelings. You wouldn't invite me to school. Life would start getting too much closer. Sleep. [...] There would be some... There would be a set from this passage.

[42:38]

And that there would be a set from this passage. [...] Okay, so the first person should finish. Let's just all just take a breath. And then the person with the less cool shoes can... What?

[43:38]

I think there's a plan that was a little bit of a plan. I'm sorry. Depends. There's a plan. I believe you have a plan. I think it's got to be a certain way. Read my documents. I'd like to see if I was to make the argument. My question is, not even if I'm just doing the first time. It's to each and all of a sudden I hear people talk about it. What's to you? We're going to have to do this for hours. We're going to have to do this for hours. So we see what we're going to do. And we're going to have to do this for hours. We're going to have to do this for hours. And we're [...] going to have to do this for hours. And That's the first thing to do. When they attract stuff, you don't want to do that. Like if we do it.

[45:05]

Like if we do it. Yeah. [...] You got the expert. So, there's a lot of stuff to do here.

[46:18]

So, if you have to get it first, please. I don't think it'll work. [...] I think it'll work. So stay with your partner. And now both people speaking, listening. How was that? What was that like to speak? What was it like to listen? So a couple of minutes. Both people going back. Go ahead. Okay. Were you on the hospital today? We did kind of a similar exercise. I guess yeah. I had to keep for three minutes. Yeah. You're sick, you're [...] sick,

[47:33]

I think it's very tough. So, I think it's a good idea. I think it's a good idea. It's a good idea. I think it's a good idea. Thank you. That is a real issue. That is a real issue.

[48:34]

I tried that a lot. Yeah, it doesn't work very well. So now let's finish and thank your partner and let's all come on back.

[50:02]

Thank you. How was that? Any ahas, questions about the... anything? Yeah. A question just didn't come up in the discussion, but seeing it sort of running out. It talks a lot about basically one's personal approach to work, and in a gymnastic context, and although the pay isn't great you know basically there's a lot of kind of tensions and conflicts that we're not encountering and we're going to maybe some of us go back out into another context where there are things like exploitation there are all sorts of levels of tension and conflict and how does

[51:30]

what we're discussing here, which is work practice, and that's the situation, help us in a work context which is infinitely more conflictual, complex. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting how the, there's a lot of, one of the hottest topics out there in the world is the benefits of meditation practice to work. And I think you all may take that for granted, but there's a lot that happens in practice that is highly applicable out in the world. Some things would be less reactive and more responsive to difficult situations. That's something that I hope that we're all cultivated there, is this ability... to not be quite so reactive and to be more responsive, like to be curious.

[52:33]

This is in a way, you know, beginner's mind will help you. It's the expert that's really reactive and gets all tied up in knots over stuff. Also that there's a way that we're cultivating a kind of flexible mind. And this is highly valued out there in the world, is being able to see from different perspectives, being able to be a little bit more open, creative, new in our approach. So I think in all of the kind of emotional situations, this practice is so core to all of those, whether it's understanding one's motivation. I mean, self-awareness is like one of the, like when I'm interviewing someone for a job in my company, I'm looking for how self-aware is this person? That's the thing I care about more than anything else. So I think it's highly applicable in so many ways. Yeah, Jeff.

[53:36]

So why is practice being taught as something separate from work? I came to practice working already and right from the beginning used practice to be that practice and work have been one and the same thing. Yeah. Until I came to a monastery and found out that practice was this separate, there was a separateness, a definition and a distinction. And then also there's this work where we're doing this thing called work practice in the same environment. And then we have all this complexity and struggle about that because we're trying to fit a wrong peg in a square hole. I'm hoping that this is your misunderstanding. So I want to set you straight right now. I'm sort of teasing you and not that I think our language language is dual work and practice and as I kind of mentioned earlier that we can especially this tradition has this not knowing and non-attainment sense that does directly clash with the definition of work

[54:54]

So there's a little bit of a shadow side to that, which I see as one of the strengths of this tradition, is that kind of non-attainment. But also, this tradition comes from the day without work. It's a day without food. And it comes from that work and that the shuso cleans the toilets. And one of the beautiful things about everything down here is that there is also... the possibility, the aspiration of totally integrating one's work and practice. And I certainly, in a way, it's maybe most obvious in the kitchen where there being, you know, where one minute you're cutting carrots and the next minute you're chanting and it's like, oh, I'm cutting carrots and I'm chanting and I'm doing this, that it's all for some larger purpose. So I think there's that. I think it's the aspiration of this monastery to have it be as fully integrated as possible.

[55:57]

I don't see that being the way it's taught, though. I'm not sure what you mean. Because there's a practice and a service that's distinct and separate. So here I am, I'm teaching this class on work practice. I hope that all of you, and they're letting me do this, you know? So my hope is that you will all, fully integrate, that it will... If it's not happening, make it happen. Start with you. Start by... And I think it starts with each of us, right? It starts with each of us doing it the best that we can. And then by that, by setting that example, it will be contagious. I'll put you on work to come to this class. Excellent. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, my hope... I really would like to see for everyone here to have that sense that work is a really alive, important core part of practice.

[57:08]

And that there's very little separation between those two. And it gets manifest. So it's one thing to say that. That's like an idea. But the way I feel like it gets manifest is that you're all helping each other that you've got each other's back you're trusting each other you're assuming the best for each other right that you all there's that that you're that there's a kind of there's a kind of love and trust that you have in a deep way for each other as as the students here at Tassahara and that in the summer you get to do that with the guests you get to be friendly and open and curious and helpful kind of like a boy scout all those same things but But that you really get to manifest that practice, and I think you do. I know that you often see each other as you're grumpy and you're tired and you're overworked. That's not the experience that the guests have. The guests mostly come in here, and partly why they come is because they can feel the practice.

[58:10]

They can feel that there's something special going on here in this valley. Sometimes you don't feel it. I had a guest just tell me yesterday how much she appreciated all the work that everyone does here and that she wished that there was a guest book so all the guests could say and pour out their gratitude to all of us here and for us being able to just hold this space and how it's, on their view, it's seamless, that it seems like it just works like clockwork and that she's sure that it's not like that, but to her and to all the other guests it does. Thanks. I once, years ago, I sat down at a guest lunch across from a woman who was a business school professor, and she said to me, who is the business brains behind this outfit? She said, it all goes so well. And I said, the business brains behind this outfit is no one looks at it as a business. Some people do, you know, but mostly not. Mostly people here are just, I mean, the real people here really are practicing.

[59:16]

There really is a practice. I thought you were going to say Shakyamuni Buddha. I was. Shakyamuni Buddha. I could have said that. We're all off, right? We're going to stop right now, anyhow. With that, thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click Giving.

[60:04]

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