This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. How about to start... Just turn to the person next to you, or find someone, and I just want to have a short discussion, a short dialogue with a partner. How is your work practice going? However you define work practice. How's it going, practicing within your work? And so three questions. How's it going? Two is, what do you love about your work? And three, what are some challenges that you're finding in your work or work practice?

[01:05]

Short conversation. Go ahead. I don't know why you practice this, though. That if not, it's part of your holistic life to support yourself. That word, is it not in the final day? Today, you'll be free to sleep. Soon sleep, you'll be free to sleep. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The prior reason is that it's difficult to mind when I think that it's hard.

[02:24]

As soon as it meets you, it's difficult to get it. It's [...] difficult to get it. ... [...] It's very rare. They have loads of wine. All of the things you've done, you've got a job, and [...] you've got a job.

[03:52]

I'm going to put it down on the palm of your hand. There's so many party specials or I'm going to talk to you about how you go to the rest.

[04:57]

I'm going to talk to you about how you go to the rest. [...] Okay, let's come on back. How's it going? What did you say? Feel free to embarrass your partner and you can say what they said. How's it going? Work practice and what's working? What are some challenges? I'm curious. Well, John just hates his crew. They're causing all sorts of... I don't know that one.

[06:01]

I do hate my crew. What's your crew, John? Oh, bag lunch. Yeah. You know, I try to help, I try to tell them the right ways of doing everything and they just don't listen. So it sounds like bag lunch is going great. It actually is. Everyone's quite nice. Other things people like. Challenges about work. So first question, better. How's it going better? It's going better. Second was not knowing. What wasn't going well? Word practice. Yeah, more specific. Second was not knowing what I'm chopping these vegetables for, not knowing what I'm cracking eggs for.

[07:07]

Uh-huh. And the third is bossy colleagues. Not the bosses, but the colleagues. They tell you what to do. And then you say, who made you my boss? Anything else? Any other things that are going well or challenges? Okay, it's okay. I'm not messing with you. I'm not feeling passionate about the work? I'm not feeling... Passionate about the work? Not feeling passionate. Yeah? I think I'm having speed to be a challenge. I've got to get things done fast and I don't... I have this view that I can't be mindful and really fast. So it's interesting. Putting all these together, these are very similar to the answers that I hear outside of Tassajara. What people usually like about the work is the people. And the most challenging thing about the work is the people.

[08:10]

And the other challenging thing is too much to do and not enough time. This seems to be the universal possibilities and challenges. I thought it was interesting. No one asked, and maybe there's an assumption about what is work and what is practice and what is work practice. And there's no one definition. But since I was asked to teach this class, I thought I should give it a little thought. And so what I came up with is, and this will, I think, show you why there's such a contradiction here, even in this term. So work is generally like getting stuff done. It's some activity where there's usually, almost always, there's some result. There's some sense of whether you're chopping a carrot or cleaning cabins or making a bad lunch or whatever it is.

[09:15]

There's actually some process of transformation. Turning nothing into something or some transformation. So this is work. Practice. Now, one definition of practice. So there's a kind of a somewhat absolute or pure definition of practice. I can hear... I can hear in my ear Suzuki Roshi saying Zen practice is going from attainment to non-attainment. From attainment to non-attainment. This sounds like the opposite of work. We have an essential problem here just with if that's a working definition. But it's actually beautifully aspirational to this sense of from attainment to non-attainment. It's a little bit like Like Dogen's, to study the way is to study the self, and to study the self is to forget the self. So there's a sense that you can have a sense of practice as a way of losing yourself.

[10:19]

And sometimes they call that flow, like being in flow, really being at one with your work. But to me, a more practical, workable definition of practice is studying yourself, developing more self-awareness, and helping others by practicing compassion. So very simple way, but not so easy. Getting to know yourself more, more self-awareness, like mindfulness practice, and compassion practice. Well, what is compassion? So compassion... Compassion has three different pieces to it. One piece is actually feeling someone else's feelings, empathy, developing understanding, the attempt to understand another person, and the third is to relieve up someone else's suffering.

[11:23]

So trying to help, the motivation to help. So in some way, so practice in that way is very simple. We're trying to build our own getting to know ourselves and help others. And that's kind of a doable. There's very little conflict there, whether we're in the kitchen or back lunch or cabins. That practice then is, what am I learning? In what way am I increasing my own awareness? And in this way, working with other people are really good, that you'll learn a lot about yourself by... having to work with these other humans. Because I like to say that we all, in a way, live on our own planet. The way that we process information, our own way of seeing the world, is quite unique. And we get in trouble by thinking that everyone lives on our planet.

[12:26]

And if they don't, we usually want them to live on our planet. Especially... if they're the person telling us to cut carrots and they're telling us in a way we want to know it in the way that we feel good they're telling us in the way that they feel good or they think they're supposed to instruct us to cut carrots so we can learn a lot about ourselves by by bumping up against other people's ideas and views and so if you if you approach it And you can see where you're triggered. Anyone ever get triggered at work? So this is kind of good news from practice. We're not trying to not get triggered. Practice is being able to handle triggers really well. So just a little bit about what is work, what is practice, and what is work practice. So I thought I would go through a few models.

[13:32]

Like what are some models both from the Zen world and outside of the Zen world in how to think about or how to approach this topic of the integration of work and practice. And then I'm going to kind of get you doing some kind of working in this too. And also feel free... to stop me at any time if you have any questions. I should say just a few things about myself, just quickly. My name is Mark Lesser. I had some great work experiences during my time at Zen Center. A lot of things I got to do that had I stayed in New Jersey where I grew up, I never would have had the opportunity. I was the dishwasher here back when the dishes were done by hand. And Steve Weintraub was the Tenzo when I was the dishwasher. And Jordan Thorne was the Fukutin. Some of you may know these people. I was the baker. I was the Fukutin for a summer.

[14:36]

Actually, I was the Fukutin when Tia was the Tenzo. And then I was the Tenzo, and Gil Fransdale was my Fukutin. Those were fun times in the kitchen. And in between... I was here at Tassajara two different times. In between, I got tapped on the shoulder after being here for a year and a half and told I was going to Green Gulch to be in charge of the draft horse farming project. And I thought that they must have misread my resume. Because I was pretty good at gymnastics and horses, but I knew nothing about the four-legged horses at all. But I spent three years learning about horses and welding and farming. And Steve Stuckey was the head of the farm for the three years that I was learning about horses. And then I got tapped on the shoulder again and asked to come back down here and work in the kitchen. And then my tenth year of living at Zen Center, I was director here.

[15:37]

And it was in that role that I, for the first time, I really got that there really is something about work practice, about this combination of practicing and working that I thought the world needs to, why isn't everybody doing this? And actually this was the year that a book called In Search of Excellence came out, a book by Tom Peters and Robert Waterman, and it was the number one book in the United States for a solid year. And it was all about what it was that made companies, what distinguished regular companies, what made companies great. And when I read this book, it looked to me like they were talking about practice, even though they weren't using the language of practice. But they were using words like embracing paradox and listening, really paying attention to who your customers are, storytelling, like integrating storytelling in with your work.

[16:43]

And I thought, oh, the world is getting this. They're just not quite using this language yet. And so I had this kind of crazy idea that this was what I was going to do with my life, was bring practice into the world. And so I naturally went to business school. I went right from here to New York and got an MBA degree. And since then, I've been working in the world of business and work. I'm currently, well, yeah, I came back to the West Coast with an MBA degree in hand and worked for a company that distributed recycled paper. And then I started a company, one of the first companies in the world to make things out of recycled paper, a company called Brushdance. And we were making reading cards and calendars and things. And... with spiritual themes. So we licensed the words of Thich Nhat Hanh and Dalai Lama and poetry of Rumi.

[17:44]

So it was a real integration for me of my kind of spiritual life and my kind of wanting to do something good for the environment. And I ran that company for about 15 years. And then I'm now running a non-profit called the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute. And it's a a program that I helped develop inside of Google, and we're basically taking work practice out into the world under the name of mindfulness, emotional intelligence, leadership, and science. Okay, that's a little about me. On to the show here. So, a few models, a few models about work practice. Well, one of my favorite models comes from the famous wash-your-bowl koan, Again, I'm assuming some of you are going to be really familiar with this, others maybe not as familiar. There's a famous Zen koan where the student enters the monastery and says to the teacher, I'm here, give me the teaching.

[18:49]

And the teacher says, have you eaten for breakfast? The student says yes, and the response of the teacher is, wash your bowls. Basically, this model is that there's a complete integration between That work is practice. If you want to practice, pay attention to bowl watching. Pay attention to carrot making, or bag lunch, or cleaning the cabins, right? So this was from a very famous koan from probably sixth century China. I want to practice Zen. What should I do? Wash your bowls. So this is one model of work practice. Another model that also comes from Zen is from Dogen's. Dogen wrote a piece about how to be the Tenzo in the kitchen called the Tenzo Kyokan. And it's a beautiful piece. I highly recommend it. The kitchen, I know they read different pieces of it during the day. And in there, Dogen's instructions are to the cook that the attitude to bring to your work is that you should practice with

[20:01]

three minds that you should practice with joyful mind, grandmother mind, and wise mind, or big mind. So this is another model for how to bring practice into your work, to everything you do, to practice with those three minds. The mind of joy, to really love what it is you do. Grandmother mind, which is this kind of, the mind of unconditional love and acceptance. and big mind, or wise mind. And the other thing he talks about in this particular piece is this reverence for everything, like to treat every grain of rice like an eyeball, like something really, really valuable and important to you. So this is another model, early model from the 13th century for work practice. A newer model, right, so a newer model is from a fellow named Daniel Pink, who has a TED talk that has been seen by several million people, in which he talks about how this, that what's really important about work is, it's not about money, and he even, he talks about this, he shows a study where they challenge people to solve a creative problem.

[21:26]

and they find that the more money you give people, the worse they do. It's a famous problem called the dunker's candle problem. So there seems to be this science showing that money is not a great motivator, it's not a great way to get people to work harder. It has a negative impact for anything that's creative. And so much of our work is creative these days. But what... does work to motivate people is people really like autonomy a sense of a sense of ownership of what they do so this can be you know this can be a challenge in the kitchen you know how do you get people to to do things right and at the same time give them a sense of autonomy because people really like people don't like it so much when you tell them what to do people like to be instructed and shown but then they like to have a sense of being able to be able to make certain decisions by themselves so autonomy mastery and purpose Daniel Pink talks about as three important motivators and these feel like to me these three feel very much like practice that we practice partly we're cultivating a sense of autonomy when we sit we're cultivating a sense of mastery of wanting to get better and better at something and then

[22:53]

We like to know that what we're doing is connected to something larger than ourselves. I think that was partly... Even if we're in the kitchen, we like to know what these onions are for. But also, the good thing about being in a Zen place like this, we have the possibility of having the purpose be practiced. We like... Purpose has many different levels, but you can... you get to create your own purpose. So even if you don't know what these carrots are for and it's a little bit annoying, so the purpose there might be, oh, let's see how I react to this particular situation. So that's a third model, right? So there's the Wash Your Bowls, Dogen, Daniel Pink. Then there's this really interesting fellow out there... anyone have ever heard of Otto Scharmer. He is a MIT professor who is out talking a lot about work as a way of changing the world.

[24:03]

And he talks about, like the subtitle of one of his books is called From Ego Systems to Ecosystems. From Ego Systems to Ecosystems. And he's talking about how It's people's egos that have really mucked up the world, have really mucked up the whole way that we create food and production and wars and stuff. So shifting, a shift using work as a way to not have it be so ego-driven, but more to really focus on a sense of interdependence and kind of caretaking at a very systemic level. So he's working with... CEOs of big companies and food manufacturers and global bankers really trying to look at systemic change. So this is another way that you could look at even like what skills are you learning here that you could take out into the world and help change the world.

[25:11]

Because I think there are, I think in order to go from ego system to ecosystem, we need to be able to let go of our egos, to get to know our egos and be able to skillfully work in that terrain. So another model, a model that I like about work practice is, any of you familiar with a book called Difficult Conversations? It's a great book. It should be recommended reading down here, especially for the summer. It is. I bought everybody on senior staff a copy. It's a great book. And I think that in some way I bring it up in this context of work practice in that for a lot of us figuring out what work we should be doing is a difficult conversation that we're having with ourselves. And one of the highlights of this book is they talk about how every conversation has three pieces.

[26:14]

There's the content, there's the feelings, and there's the identity. So when you think about your work, your work is your own conversation about what you're doing. There's the content, which is, I'm cutting carrots. There's the feeling, I'm really angry in the way this person just told me about cutting carrots. And there's your identity, which is, gee, I don't feel very competent because of the way this person is talking to me. So that's just one example. But in almost everything that we're doing, part of a way to get to know your work is to start paying attention to what's the content of your own conversation. What are you feeling? And what are some of the identity issues underneath? And the identity issues are usually around competence or around being loved or about being good. I know it's hard, you know. we seem to really pay a lot of attention to those identity issues.

[27:21]

Those identity issues are unbelievably pervasive and strong. We tend to be scanning the environment almost unconsciously about for our competence, are we worthy of love, are we good? And this is happening even when we work. It's happening in the kitchen. That's why it's so hard working with other people because these identity issues are coming up. And often people are not so conscious about it. So this is another model of work practice is to pay attention to this conversation. Yeah. Being loved, being... Competent, worthy of love, and good. Being a good person. The three questions that were always... always running in the background. Am I competent? Am I worthy of love? Am I good? Am I a good person? So it's interesting to notice. So one thing about this three-conversation model is not only to notice it in yourself, but to be aware of how it's happening in others.

[28:27]

That when you ask someone to do something, in what way is it interacting with their own feelings and their own identity issues. So another model, which I kind of alluded to already, and this is the Dogen model of that word practice could be said to study yourself and to forget yourself. To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to become connected, deeply connected. He uses the word enlightened, but I like to think of it as deeply connected with everything and everyone. So work could be seen as a real great way to both study yourself and, as I said earlier, to forget yourself and to kind of create a kind of oneness.

[29:33]

Okay, last model, and then I'm going to have you guys... do something with each other. The last model comes from a guy named Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey. Who knows Joseph Campbell and The Hero's Journey? Pretty good. So this is really, I think, a terrific model in that it embraces not only our work lives, but really our whole life. But for a lot of us, work seems to be a really important part of our identity. even for we Zen students who are working hard to shed our identities, at the same time, work is a real core part of who we are. So Joseph Campbell talks about that the hero's journey is like, what is it? What's our calling? What's really important to us? And that we're all in some very large, profound way our life could be looked at

[30:35]

as the hero's journey, that we are the heroes in our own journey. And work is a really core part of that. So the first question is, what is your calling? What is it you're called to do in the work world? And Joseph Campbell talks about these 17 different processes, but there's a few that I find particularly apt and relevant, especially for work. So one is this question of what is your calling? The second is noticing your resistance. Often there's some resistance to whatever comes up about what's really important to me. There's some direction, but there's some kind of resistance to that direction. But then there's things like noticing as you start to move forward toward finding what's important. Who are your guys along the way? What people are there to help you? What are some of the difficulties. He calls it the trials.

[31:36]

What's some of the difficulties that you run into? And these difficulties might be your internal states or that might be other people or situations or lack of resources. So there's what's your calling? The resistance to the calling. What are your guides? What are some of the difficulties? How do you find your own power? When you meet these difficulties, how do you find power? How do you find the the confidence, the will, the ability to move through these difficulties. And then as you start to find what's really important to you, how do you then integrate it into your life in general? So you might, while you're here, have some real sense of calling, some sense of what's really important to you. You might go through these various stages, but then when you when you leave here or if you stay here a long time, there's this constant sense of integration.

[32:41]

So let's try something. Everybody stand up. And without talking, find a partner. Maybe you find someone that you don't know, if possible, and have a seat with that person, and I'll give you some instructions. So find a partner, have a seat, I'll give you some instructions. Yeah. If you need a partner, raise your hand and you can find each other. Raise your hand so you can find each other. It's okay. It's fine. You guys can work together. Anyone else? That's fine. You'll get to know each other even more. Okay.

[33:43]

Everyone have a partner? You have a challenge already. Okay, so here's what we're going to do. So the topic, I think it suggests that each person talk about Just as an experiment, talk about your hero's journey. And so you're going to talk about, like, what's your calling? Like, what's really important to you? So in the realm of work, in the realm of livelihood, in the realm of what you're going to do, what are you called to do? What would you say is your calling? Who are some of your guides and helpers along the way? What are some of the problems you're running into? What are some of the difficulties? And what do you do to meet these problems? Or how do you find your own power? And there's one other possible topic, if those don't resonate for you, is talk about anything you feel like.

[34:52]

Because actually what we're going to do, we're going to do a kind of a mindful listening exercise. So one person is going to talk. for a few minutes, and the other person is not going to ask questions, not going to interrupt, just going to listen, and then we'll switch, and the other person will go, and there'll be a few minutes. So we're actually practicing. So a large, a big part of, one of the big parts of work practice is listening, is actually listening to yourself and listening to others. So we're going to practice that in the midst of talking about our own hero's journey and our own So any questions? Is that clear enough? We do. So figure out who's going to go first. How about the person with the shorter hair? I'm biased. We're shorter. So the shorter hair person can go first. Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. Yeah. So a couple other things.

[35:56]

So the idea here is we're exploring listening We're also exploring speaking. You might actually find yourself saying things that you don't say all the time. It's okay to be a little awkward. We're not trying to impress each other or have it together. So this is really a kind of an exploration of this topic of what's your call? What's really important to you? Who are your guides? What are some of the difficulties you're having or foresee having? And how do you find your own power? Okay. Three minutes. I'm going to do the timing. Oh, so one other... I've got a bell. So, yeah. So one other thing. If you run out of something to say in your three minutes, we're good at saying nothing here, right? You're all chained in. Or just sit there uncomfortably.

[36:58]

But don't say, I'm dying and have the other person go. Take the whole... Listen, three minutes is not a long time for this. You guys should be experts at this. Come on, three minutes. We could do it for 30 minutes. We'll just do it for three. So is that a short-air person? Go ahead. Go for it. And I'll ring a bell. Three minutes and we'll switch. Yeah. Oh, sure. So you can't feel this bad, and you can't make it since you're on.

[38:02]

But I feel like I do. It was seamlessly part of the way that we had to smile. But, I'll leave the third number of people. This is the exact point of thousands of people. She's very young. [...] I mean, I don't know what that issue is, but in fact, you know, I don't have a job actually, it's like, I don't know, like, I don't know, like, I don't know, I don't know, like, I don't know, like, I don't know, like, I don't know. It's not so hard to pretend that you're either.

[39:05]

It's nice. It seems like, to me, maybe it's a good one. It's like that's really cool. [...] I don't know what it's all about. I don't know what it's all about. I don't know what it's all about.

[40:06]

I don't know what it's all about. [...] . . . . So the first person should stop. Let's just all take a breath. And then whenever you're ready, the second person has three minutes.

[41:06]

Thank you. That makes sense. I've had to be a baker, maple baker, since high school and I've been in college and I saw some famous filmmakers that I've ever took years to really make. What's the biggest? It was a thing that you can't see. So it gives you the alternate. It's very working. It's [...] working. I was prepared for that.

[42:22]

And then I had a class that didn't return to all these I directed. is that I worked in a film that had a choice to do it, being examples of the editorial existence and the intellectual side that you decided to see in the editorial existence. Because that's the way that's why I have a big story in storytelling. It's a way to express itself as a reporter. It's a different set of references. you know, to generate what he did to send us a bunch of great synergy in the genetic picture and pacing stories. So, intellectually, I chose that. Emotionally, I was supposed to be on set. I was supposed to die with the casino movie with the hat on the sides. Editors was a pain, a strange thing. They were very peaceful. They were very, very lucky white. I was talking about a lot of smoke, and I really loved that I had spent a lot of time by myself in the dark stories house.

[43:36]

I don't think it was really part of my personality. Anyway, I went down that road and came in that road, never feeling like I was in a good way, but there were like seconds during going to direct school. Okay. Stay with your partner. Second person finished. And now, just have a back and forth conversation with your partner. How was that? What was it like for you to speak without being interrupted? What was it like for you to listen? And just anything about, you know, that came up that would be useful to talk with both people speaking, listening. Three minutes, I'll ring a bell. How was it? What was your experience? I did what you want. You're part of my day, but I didn't want to talk very much.

[44:39]

So, you know, I'm good with one. I tried to release that. I was happy to learn about this. I was happy to see where you're at. I think we're all in Jersey. I've been around some scenarios where I've been, like, wild, obsessed, as actors, as if you're going to lose, and you're just... This is a good picture.

[46:01]

Of course, Game 6 is still there. Say something in response, and you can hold it. Dice. [...] I think it's just a good one. It's [...] a good one. There's a very, very good thing. Finding food in America. Thank you.

[47:01]

Thank you. It's funny if you want to get in here. You [...] want to get in here. So let's finish. Thank your partners and let's come on back. There's you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[48:01]

How'd that go? How about any comments, reflections, questions about what we just did or work practice in general? anybody else make a new best friend I actually want to do that with all the people I do know because I don't know the answer to that question for most of the people that I live with here yeah we should have they should just clear some days to do this kind of stuff actually it's a good actually I sometimes say find find ourselves in situations where it's a little awkward with like what do you say when you meet someone new and especially like here it's one of the because there's a lot of guests coming in it's like well what do you say to these people something you can always say is tell me your story tell me what you're doing to make the world a better place and how can I help

[49:30]

Those are three really great questions. So I've been really enjoying having these conversations here with guests. But I'm not working as hard as you are. Comments? I was really interested to happen to be paired with somebody else who is not necessarily, doesn't have an answer. questions, neither of us. And so it's my chance to be able to, we just resonated with each other about that. And the fear of when we both, you know, individually heard what the topic was. Yeah. It's actually, you know, almost by definition, there isn't an answer. It's a calling. And it's like, so, it's a process. It's a process. Sometimes we do have an answer, and then sometimes it changes. So it's really, I think, the aspiration. So there is, I think in some way, when we look at work practice, I think one of the things I was saying right in the beginning, there's a part of it that's aspirational, that we aspire to integrate our practice and our work.

[50:45]

And we'll never quite succeed at it. And we can't fail at either, right? So from one perspective, you can't possibly not be practicing while you're working. It's impossible. Everything you do is practice. But from another perspective, you can't possibly fully do it. So both are true. So in that way, it's aspirational. Any other comments, questions? Well, the... Just one sec. I felt like my partner almost had like a more formed, a better answer, you know, like very succinct.

[51:47]

Like they've been thinking about it for a while and And I thought I, too, had been thinking about it for a while, that my job was very clear-cut in its application of daily compassion. But saddened by the fact that I don't know all those answers, and I don't have any guides. Well, I think not having an answer to the first one, I hope you can give yourself a little space with it. Maybe look at it with, like, appreciate the question. And guides is something, sometimes it just takes asking. People, it's surprising, we often have trouble asking for help. People like to be asked for help. People like to be asked to be mentors or guides. I think it's a really underappreciated relationship.

[52:51]

to have guides, mentors, people that are helping us. I don't know what I would do without my therapist, coach, Zen teacher, body workers, and a whole host of informal guides. Yeah. We both really appreciate the forum of it, and it's not very often that it should happen that you're you're asked to respond to a question that has these sort of abstract concepts like power, hero, calling, journey. And if someone's really listening to you and you're answering a question like that, built into the relationship because of the listening is a kind of like, well, I found myself, you know, I wasn't making stuff up. I was really wanting to connect with the person who was listening.

[53:53]

And so it's kind of just fascinating to hear what comes out of your mouth. And it's because there's been this time where you're not going to be interrupted, where you can really be inside of that question and just say what's arising. So just listening to yourself and sharing it with another person and acknowledging to yourself, oh, this is where I am. That's interesting. It was kind of cool. I think it's a really potent form. It comes from the world of mediation, where people are not hearing each other, and it's a means to help people both to hear yourself and to hear someone else. Yeah, David. When you ask the question, that really helps clarify for me What is it I really want? You know, I can say, I'd like to be more compassionate. But what does that actually mean? You know, what is it behind everything?

[54:55]

Is that what I want? Yeah. Yes? I wonder when you said it was also the listening part was listening completely about energetic I think we both appreciated that part, maybe the most. But really, it's also, I think, when one is listening, it's always, you know, often sort of anticipating what the person is going to say. So one of the pitfalls can be, at that point, it interjects in that sort of, that you're anticipating. Whereas if you're really respecting that silence, you realize that the, maybe, I think both can be really profound practices, right?

[56:10]

The practice of just listening without, right? Usually we're preparing, we're responding, and when we're doing that, we're not really listening. And when we're speaking, we're kind of already anticipating what the other person's, it's all embedded in there. It's not just speaking, just listening. Why did you choose this exercise in our first school practice? The exercise we just did? Yeah. Why did I choose the topic or the... Well, this exercise and... I'm not sure. In a way, I feel like I'm... I'm trying not to, but I notice this could be a day long or several days. I'm used to doing two-day programs. So this was an hour. So I chose what I thought could be the most impactful during the small amount of time we had.

[57:18]

That's all I really could say. Yeah, and I wanted to go as deep as I thought we could go in an hour. One thing that surprised me as I was talking was how I found my power sounded like this practice, like noticing where, noticing my motivations is foreign, where there's something that surprised me, like, oh, that's my answer. Good. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, that whole topic, it's a favorite topic of mine, power. And really quickly, we're going to end in two minutes. This was when I was living at... Green Gulch Farm. Actually, it was... I don't know if any of you know Yvonne? Well, I'm sure you know Yvonne Rand. I was a young whippersnapper Zen student working on the farm, and Yvonne looked at me and said, Mark, you have a way of pissing away your power.

[58:24]

And I didn't... She said, I was pissing away my power. I didn't think this was a compliment. It felt really odd. But it actually was a was a koan for me it was something that for all those years the question is well what is my what is my power like she was in a way it was a gift she was saying that I she was seeing power in me that I was totally unaware that I had what is what is our power and how do we how do we give it away two things before we close one is tomorrow very exciting we're going to do another class same topic but I'm going to reveal the seven practices for how to integrate work and practice. We're going to focus on seven concrete practices. And suggested homework is to listen. Like, see if you can maybe sometime between now and tomorrow afternoon, see if you can listen to someone else in a quality that you might not normally listen.

[59:34]

Or it could be to yourself. Listen to yourself a little bit with a little more intention. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Give In.

[60:08]

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