Good evening, everyone. I'm not sure if everyone knows everyone, so I'd like to start each class with us just saying our names. And also, if you're just here for tonight only as a visitor or anything, you can say that as well. I'm Courtney. Erin. Matt. Lynn. Arlene. Lance. Carol. Tilda. And I might fully be here tonight instead of for the whole class. I'm Dennis. Amy. Claire. I'm Joan. I'm just here for tonight. Okay. Thank you. We have an intimate gathering here to talk about... Actually, do you want to pass those out, Lance? These are some biographies that Matt worked on compiling.

[01:18]

A number of biographies that have been going for the last maybe five years. And then a women in Buddhism website kind of like shapes on that. There's a good friend of his, I'm assuming. She has a website that's very up to date. There's about two, because there's about a hundred books in Muslim women and female in Buddhism. This is kind of a shape website. And then this one is a combination of whatever is not on here. Right, Matt? Okay. So the two of these together is pretty comprehensive up until... In fact, it's got a book on here that's not quite out. There's a new book by Samuel O'Shea called Hidden Spring of Buddhist Women Confronts Cancer, which is right about to come out.

[02:21]

So it's really up to date. And as you can see, there's really a lot of stuff. And this does include articles and journals and dissertations and all sorts of things that are available about women in Buddhism. So I've taught this class several times, and this particular class I wanted to emphasize the early women teachers and also from this book, which is the precepts that the nuns took. And this is kind of like Shadesomo's book, Sisters in Solitude, which if any of you would like to order it, we can order it. It's in print. I wanted to wait to see if anyone wanted to buy it. We can also relax parts of it, although I don't like to do that that much. But this is two separate precept lists and a comparison of them and so forth.

[03:27]

And it really gives you a sense of the kinds of daily life and rules and sisters in solitude and things that the community of nuns were dealing with. The rules were made up according to circumstances. They didn't start out with a bunch of rules and guidelines. They were added according to things that happened. We just had four classes, and I thought tonight's class we would talk about the founding of the nuns' order and the beginnings of Buddhist women moving home. And then next week, I think we could probably do three weeks on the precepts, but we'll see if we get to this. Next week, I was hoping to focus a little bit on Aha Prashapati, the first woman ancestor,

[04:31]

although it's not strictly speaking in the language that we chant, but that she's added in the echo and the dedication to Anutasara and in the city center, I think, and we're thinking of adding it into ours, the first woman ancestor, Mahaprashapati, in our dedication in the morning. Anyway, there's information in poems about her life and death that might be interesting to do next week. So that was how I saw the class. Also, in the library, we're going to set up a shelf for reserved books. We do have a lot of these books available. There's also a thick notebook that has a lot of ZoomX articles and chapters from other books that you can avail yourself of. Is that all right? So that's for use in the library itself.

[05:35]

And another thing that I'd hope to do, and maybe we can do that next week as well, is look at, this is a book called The First Buddhist Women, Translations and Commentary on the Therigata. Therigata means elder woman, and gata is like verse. So these are the verses of these women who were first ordained and their enlightenment verse, and their arhats. So these are the Acharyas that we chant. And Acharya is the Sanskrit term, or the Pali term, for the word that became in Chinese, in Japanese it became osho, and in Chinese it was heshe, or something like that, which was Acharya. So Acharya to the Chinese, to the osho,

[06:37]

Dai Osho was a great teacher. So it has a direct, what we're most familiar with, the Dai Osho or the Osho, is Acharya. Why is it in front instead of in the end? What's the honorary honorific? Yeah, I'm not sure actually if that's the way the Pali puts it, and in Japanese and Chinese it goes behind. But in any rate, it's the same word. So one thing that we could do, which we've done in other classes, is for you to assign which person in the class one of the Acharyas is, and we'll look her up and find out about her, and then let us know who she was and how reading about her story affected you, or what kind of relationship you had to that material, of that story. So would you like to do that?

[07:37]

Would that be something you'd like to do? So maybe I'll, or maybe you have somebody you would like to, just from chatting with names, one name that fascinates you or something, and this book would be a good one to look them up in, and this should be unreserved. It should be, but it's actually in my room. Oh. Okay. I haven't read it in a long time. Oh, there must be another unreserved copy. Oh, okay. So it still should be unreserved. We can either run unreserved, or you can just look up your person and sit in the library. Okay, so let's do it for next week. So that'll be our assignment. And let's see, I just wanted to give you a little background about my relationship to this material, and some thoughts about nuns, I guess you could say,

[08:41]

that I've been having recently, having had some contact with, before we were doing Petunia or nuns at this conference that I attended earlier. This is somewhere in June. So personally, everyone comes to Buddhist practice through their own pain and their own suffering and their own difficulties. That's my feeling, and you all know that this is true, that we end up coming to practice, or at least I'm saying, because I think in Asia and countries where Buddhism is the kind of regular religion, and your grandma is a Buddhist, and everybody knows Buddhists, you come to it through different ways. But I think in the West, very few of us, although it's happening now, are ethnic Buddhists, meaning grew up in a Buddhist family. Although we do now have young people whose parents sacked

[09:42]

and are now doing practice periods, and so that's the new, this generation that's coming up that was brought into Buddhist families. It's not happening in the West, but for the most part, I think, and even for those people, if they're going to really take up practice, it's based on suffering or pain and feeling this is some way to meet that. So for me, I think what I found, or what was uncovered for me, was pain around gender issues, you might say. Now, I remember recently, somebody said, oh no, gender issues, people are going to have gender issues, I can't stand it. I think you maybe know what I mean. I think our society is, Western society, United States,

[10:45]

American society, is pretty patriarchal, and for those of you who've come to Buddhist practice since certain changes have been made at Zen Zen, like the Acharyas, for example, I remember when we started practice, when we were already chanting the Women Ancestors, where it was just morning service. Okay, so... That's great, that's really great, because when I first started practicing, when we chanted the Heart Sutra, for example, it was the Bodhisattva, it wasn't a Bodhisattva, it was the Bodhisattva, he does this and he does that, but there wasn't gender-inclusive language, or neutral gender, neutral language. The ordination ceremony was, you are now, you are seated with the Buddha and are his child, you are now the Buddha's, his child, the Buddha's child,

[11:46]

which got changed. Anyway, there's been so many changes over the last 30, 35 years, that for those people coming now, that's just the way it is, we chant this group of Women Ancestors, and anyway, coming from patriarchal society, and at a time when I was actually pretty unconscious, I think, when I first came to practice, about the women's, women's live, you know, women's liberation movement was going on, but I kind of missed it, because I was at Tassara sitting as I am, and I didn't realize it. So, I was just dealing with my own stuff, and then realized later the degree to which the issues around gender had a lot to do with, not all my suffering, but there was a lot of material that was right there for me, and for example,

[12:47]

coming from a family of over three daughters, and were encouraged to go to college and all, so it wasn't at that level where, you know, we could get an education or something, but I remember being totally, Tova's heard this story before, at a very young age, that my dad saying at the dinner table with my mother and the three daughters, there's no great women chefs, there's no great women painters, there's no great women writers, he just sort of, maybe blanket statements, and not having, thinking he's got to be wrong, but not being able to, you know, fight back with, well what about my facade, and what about this one and that one, and being of an age where, you know, what my dad said was right, so we were more identified, I think, which many of us, men and women, this is not, gender issue themes are not just women's

[13:50]

territory, this is human suffering territory, and it's, so to be able to uncover and kind of look at, what is this about, and, so this material, about women and boys, I realize speaks to a part of me that doesn't get a lot of, or used to not get, although it does, especially with these, the amount of material that's out there, didn't get a lot of, light showing on it, and, so I find this, just looking at this material, very, broadening in many ways, and I see, oh here's an area that's not been looked at, that's, that is feeling, unexamined, you know, unexamined, certain assumptions, certain assumptions about myself and others, you know, unexamined, certain conventional, ways of thinking, and constructive reality that,

[14:55]

I realize I haven't, thoroughly looked there, so, this, this material, helps me do that, and I hope it will help you all do that too, because that's, and I see that as directly affecting our, practice relationships, our teacher-student relationships, our sangha relationships, harmony in the sangha, and, and to show, bring some light to some areas that we may have not, looked at, that are our own suffering, so, I think that's some background about why I find, the material, meaningful or significant, and, and also I feel it's very important, for us, to be very familiar with what the teaching is, because there's a lot out there that is, kind of popularized, Buddhism, you know,

[15:58]

and I think it's, it's helpful to know, you know, that sutras say such and such, or the Buddha didn't say that, or, or that scholars, in looking at this material, that it looks like the Buddha said such and such, about the role of women let's say, and then scholars uncovering, that, that was probably, put down there later, maybe a thousand years later, or, you know, really after the Buddha's, actual, during his life, and what was going on in the society at that time, why monks would say such a thing, for example, that, their dating of women, meant that this, that the Buddhism would not, last very long, would die sooner, would die in 500 years, rather than lasting a thousand years, you may have heard that somewhere, and scholars, Western scholars, for the most part, have, in their, studies of the actual language,

[17:02]

and so forth, found this not to have been, probably, not something the Buddha actually said, but added later, so, so it helps to sift through, I think, some of the, material that you come upon in sutras, and other readings, that may be very discouraging, you can actually, have a, knowledge that, you know, it wasn't necessarily that way, so are there any questions, so far, or actually, if there's anybody who, would like to, add, to how it is that you chose to, take this, particular class, if any of the things I say, said, resonate with you, or if you're just curious, would anyone like to, say how it is that you, signed up, to take this, basic interest in the subject,

[18:04]

yes? Well, this might be the third or fourth time I've taken the class, I'm sure something new, and for me, it's really, wonderful that, women are being more and more included in, the liturgy, this week, as well as, on the altar, images of women, on the altars, women teachers, so accessible, and I've really gotten to learn about our ancestors, and the hardships they had to deal with. The, you know, people have told me, and this is because of the patriarchal society we live in, that we don't have, very many, although it's growing, models of, women in, very prominent religious, positions, and, you know, when I was growing up, there were no women rabbis, and I think the first woman rabbi was,

[19:04]

ordained in like, the 60s, 70s? I don't know exactly when, but it was late. It was late, you know, and now, it's very, it's much more common, in fact, the two temples, Jewish temples in St. Paul, where I grew up, being related to, both have, husband and wife, rabbi teams, you know, so this is, I think, becoming more and more common, but having, models, of various types, and I think, in terms of diversity, I mean, you know, different, genders, different sexual orientations, different races, and so forth, to have different models, is very, I think it's very helpful, for us, rewinding, and for those of us, who have internalized, which I was kind of, pointing to, with growing up, with hearing things like that, that was just a regular dinner table conversation, you know, but, what else I received,

[20:05]

through osmosis, about, and internalized, about myself, as a woman, to actually see, role models, and having that, be, opened, and dropped, and let go of, is, I think, really important, and, was just reading this quote, Anne Klein, who is a scholar, and wrote the book, Reading the Bliss Queen, you may have seen that, it's about, feminism, and Tibetan practice, and, she said the first time, she saw, a woman, Tibetan, practitioner, teacher, sitting in the seat, sitting in the teaching seat, she was struck, with, and she was just, almost dumbfounded, because, it was so unusual, and the effect of that, on her own personal, acceptance, almost of her own life, by seeing that,

[21:05]

so, having these, models, I think is very important. Anyone else want to, say anything about, taking a class, yeah. I was really inspired by, Tenzin Palmo's book, It Came in the Snow, and, I read it when I was in, in Dharamsala, and I was, I was staying at a, at a monastery, where there was a lot of, like Western, Tibetan nuns there, and, I had a wonderful time, with them, and it was, it was sort of a, a first encounter, with this whole other, sort of, world of, you know, celibate, spiritual, women who dedicate their life, to the Dharma, and, through reading, It Came in the Snow, was really, much more, my eyes were, open a lot more, to the challenges, that they're having, and, and the Tibetan women, and nuns,

[22:05]

and, and, you know, just like, in other parts of, life that I've discovered, you know, it comes, just as, so, yeah, interesting. So, in the fall, that's our practice period, we studied the, women ancestors, and, we, that was with me, and, we just got a taste, of it, and, I think, it was the first year, we came to Redulge, from city center, Hugh and Wendy, did a women's day, in the center, so, eight years, nine years ago now? This is the center, center, yeah, the center. And, I remember, I was working, so I couldn't come, and every year, I wanted to hear, how you taught, this class,

[23:07]

and how you evolved, so I was really, enthused that, you know, we're coming to teach it, and we could hear, from seven years of, doing this, teaching, and, then listening to how Norman, approached these, women teachers, he was kind of like, awed every time, he'd read the story of, how these women, came into practice, and the, immense struggle, that they had, so, I'm really looking forward to, this time with you. Okay. Thank you. I've been interested in, gender issues, for a long time, because of my own, the part of my identity, that is gay, has really, brought up, what gender is, and those roles, and how they're, put on you, and how you do, and don't fit, how I do, and don't fit,

[24:07]

into them, so, and then, in my college studies, that kind of came out a lot, became an interest of mine, looking at, Greek society, and, and being here, you know, I'm very aware that, you know, in, more traditional Buddhist societies, like in Japan, there aren't really, there isn't a role for women teachers, as much, I don't think there are women priests, in Japanese, monasteries, or, in Tibet, it's a real issue, the ordination of women, and I think that, maybe a unique contribution, that we have in the West, is to be able to be, more inclusive, women, so, I was just anxious to, see this, I was actually, I didn't sign up because, I was buying a matching one, that I can choose, and I was waiting to take one class, and then,

[25:08]

at the last minute, they announced, I was like, alright, I have to. Well, I'd like, maybe we can just, kind of pledge to each other, that I think, it's kind of emotional, some of this material, it touches things, in our psyche, you know, that maybe haven't been, touched for a while, or we're keeping it very, anyway, so, I would like us to feel free to, sort of, say, I'd like to, hold everything for a second, and, if we want to just kind of, check in at that level, I would appreciate that, I think, the material does, lend itself to that kind of, personal, account of what's going on, so, please feel free to do it, and, if you feel comfortable with each other, I know you know each other pretty well, some of you,

[26:09]

so, if you do feel that way, I think it would, really help the class. I wanted to, I don't know, where to begin here, let's start with, how, it was, that, women became, nuns, you know, how they joined the order, so, I want to tell that story, but, I just wanted to say that, in Japan, there are women, teachers, and, there's nuns, and they have, you know, the head of the nun group, they have abbesses who are, called roshi, and so forth, but they're not priests, in that, there's a dual standard, they don't marry, whereas, men, priests can marry, there's also, men monks who don't marry, and, those have higher, regardless, hierarchically speaking, people look, up to them, more than the women,

[27:09]

priests, but women, don't. In the Meiji period, there was, a kind of decree, that, it used to be, that all celibate monks and nuns, but then, the monks could marry, and then, there began to be, married priesthood, but not, nuns. So, our language, you know, just, to say a bit about this, is Suzuki Roshi, who came from, he was the son of a priest, but his father, was one of those early, you probably, if you've read, Crippled Cucumber, it talks about the fact that, his father did, marry and have a son, and then his son, became a priest, and they were looked down on, the children of that priest, because it was kind of new, and, you know, it had a priest, you can imagine, if you're Catholic, if they made that change, how it would take quite a while, for that, for it to be accepted, from, a lot of people, so, they were looked down on, but we didn't know that,

[28:12]

you know, when Suzuki Roshi came, he came with his wife, Oksana, and he had kids, and, men and women equally, were interested in practice, and this was the model, that men and women, were married, just like, you know, the rabbi is married, and the priests are married, and, ministers are married, you know, Catholicism, they're not married, but, that model, of a married, cleric, was not so unusual, for the rest, right, so we just, but it's unusual, for women, priests to be married, and I remember, Oksana, Suzuki Roshi's wife, when, when I gave birth, to Sarah, well, the fact that Steve and I, were both ordained, and we had this baby, oh, she just was, she made this little, um, juban, one of these little white things, a little teeny tiny one, for Sarah, and oh, a special baby, both parents are priests, so she couldn't get over it, you know, I think it was a 36, but, but Travis was like, well yeah, of course, you know, anyway,

[29:12]

so we are really, an anomaly, I want you to know, so, we're just, this is our range, we're really, this is all I know, and, in the Buddhist world, the Japanese are an anomaly, having married monks, married priests, men, and, because the rest of the Buddhist world has a celibate, orders, monks and nuns, so, Buddhism in the West is, you know, changing, things, so how did these orders begin, and, do you remember when we were started the Buddha's, you know, the start and the life of the Buddha, pretty much, most of them, yes, okay, so, after the Buddha's enlightenment, I skipped, after the Buddha's enlightenment, actually, I should, I should go back to when the Buddha was still a prince, or the, as the legend says, prince Siddhartha, and he, wanted to escape from the palace, you know, to see the world, and he, he saw, the first time he went out,

[30:13]

he saw somebody who was sick, and he said to his chariot driver, what is this person, they don't look strange, because he was, legend says, he was kept from seeing anyone who was sick, or dying, even plants, that were, kept flowers, that were dying in the vase, would be whisked away before Siddhartha could see them, so he never saw decay, and, sickness, and, it was kept from the sight, and they cleared the streets of all the homeless, and everything, when he went out on this ride, except, there was one, who was actually, having a messenger, was Siddhartha, and it was a sick person, so he goes, what is this sick person, very distressed, remember the story, and he was very depressed, actually, then he wanted to go back out again, then he saw, and he actually saw an old person first, then a sick person, then he saw a corpse, remember, going off to the pyre, what is this, you know, everybody dies, and he couldn't believe it, then he went, it was the last time he went out, he saw, a renunciate, he saw, a religious person,

[31:15]

and in India, at the time, there were, Jains, and there were, Brahmacharians, I think there were, and there were, many wandering ascetics, as India has, had, yogis, and so forth, who wandered about, and so, it wasn't a Buddhist, that he saw, because there wasn't such thing, but there were wandering religious people, and he saw this person sitting, doing some kind of meditation practice, and that, so that was the fourth heavenly messenger, was a renunciate, so this stuck, you know, very strongly, for the Buddha, until he finally, renounced, the whole life, and became a whole believer, and went on his spiritual quest, and I brought with me, just because I wanted this, I didn't bring it, this ultimate story, of the Buddha's, do you know about the ultimate story, a story that's different from that, that we know of, well,

[32:15]

this, tale that we had heard, repeated, and nausea, I might say, that we've heard repeated, in all the anthologies, in all the books, about how the Buddha left, his crying, wife, actually his sleeping wife, not crying, his sleeping wife, with the baby, Rahula, meaning fetter, left him sleeping, and went off in the middle of the night, cut his hair, there's, that particular, scene, was actually, post-canonical, or it's outside of the Buddhist canon, but, western scholars, finally picked up on that one, and, it's also told in Buddhist countries too, it's not that, it's unknown there, but there are other versions of that tale, in an over, strata, of the Pali canon, and, the one that we know of,

[33:16]

is post-canonical, meaning it's outside the Buddhist canon, it's more of a, additional story, where other stories, have him, or several stories, actually, one has him leaving, his sobbing, mother and father, man, the wife, and, this particular one, from the Murasa Vastavada Vinaya, has him, sleeping, he doesn't have a son, and he's sleeping with Maya, his wife, that night, and she wakes up, and has a terrible dream, and he, comforts her, and, she tells him along the dream, I think her teeth fell out, it was, different things, but anyway, where he ends up, and, he assures her, that he's not gonna, leave her, don't worry, and he comforts her, and then they make love, and that night,

[34:17]

she conceives, and he, also decides, to go on his quest, and does leave her, and she says, wherever you go, it will take me with you, and he says, so be it, wherever I go, it will take you with me, he promises, and he, feels that he's taking her with him, this is how he, describes it to himself, kind of internally, that she's always with him, he goes off on his quest, she's pregnant, and she's on her own quest, of this pregnancy, which lasts, a full six years, during this time, when he's on his spiritual quest, and he does, ascetic practices, and she hears about it, and does ascetic practices, and doesn't eat properly, and then she gets very weak, and they're afraid for the baby, and it's a whole spirit, and at the end, the night of his enlightenment, he is going through, the watches of the night, and he sees the morning star, and she gives birth, that night, so this kind of, parallel paths, the queen,

[35:23]

and the Buddha have, so I just, like to mention this to people, because it's not, so well known, and I think this, this is, in that big thick notebook, this, I'll see what's in there, if you want to read about it, because there's, other things about, how she takes, Rahula, to see if he, he recognizes his father, and he does, and it's, of course got, many folk motifs, in there, of legend, and other kinds of stories, but, I love the fact that, it doesn't, you know, this, vision of him, people often say, well let the Buddha ruin his wife, and baby, sang for you, now they have a little, problem about that sometimes, and it's, held very high, highly because of this, individualistic, making spiritual practice, ahead of family, familial, relationships, is, because those are the,

[36:25]

strongest ties to break, all the ties of affection, are hard to break, we say in the, renation ceremony, and so of course, that he was able to break them, showed, you know, his sincerity, and it's, it is valued, I think people feel, home living, is valued for that very reason, because we know how, how difficult it is, but this particular one, where they let go, and then she's pregnant, and this parallel thing, it's kind of fun, so, you can take a look at that, in the reserve, so after he did, have his enlightenment, the first group of, ascetics, well, you know, I have to teach the class, on the life of the Buddha, in September, and I have to take that, yeah, I'm not studying, definitely, I have some external students, I can give them one, we say, I always include that, in the life of the Buddha, that's great, yeah, so the first, five, he had been practicing,

[37:25]

with these ascetics, you know, he had been doing, all those ascetic practices, eating one sesame seed, and so forth, and he met those, they abandoned him, because he had begun to eat, he ate that delicious, rice pudding, remember, and sat, so then they saw him, and he was, there was something about him, that they really, noticed, and those became, he taught the first, turning of the wheel, and they got it, right, called, I can't remember, the first guy who gets it, he says, come, come Deanna, gets it, you know, anyway, they became the first order, and began, and there was no order, established, but it was just, come, do what I do, and, then, the order was, they were wandering, they had no, special place to live, they had no, established monastic places, they, in fact, they couldn't stay, more than one, these are part of the precepts, more than one, they, night in one place,

[38:26]

and they, received alms, they begged, so they didn't, do regular work, they didn't have no money, they just, asked for, alms, and they're ready to go, they had one meal a day, and this, began to grow, I mean India, has a very, old and strong, spiritual, traditions, many different, spiritual traditions, and many people, flocked to the Buddha, and, began, and, asked for ordination, and, the ordination was very simple, it was just, come, come Bhikkhu, come, home, and, enjoy. So, the Buddha preached, and the laity also heard him, and, the, about seven years, five or seven years, after this time, the Buddha's, foster mother, who happened to have also been his aunt, Prajapati, which means,

[39:26]

leader of a great assembly, she was, Yasodara's, she was, Yasodara, right? Yasodara was his wife, Maya was his mother, Maya, and, Prajapati were sisters, and they both married, King Suddhodana, so it was, the custom I guess, that the king, or maybe everybody, could have more than, maybe, didn't have to be the king, maybe, multiple wives, I don't think he had multiple wives, but, I'm sure he did, multiple wives, was maybe the custom, I'm not sure, but, both sisters married this king, and, Maya died after seven days, and, Prajapati, took over, foster mother, for the Buddha, so she raised him, about seven years, after the monks, order was established, Prajapati's, husband, the Buddha's father, Suddhodana, passed away, she was,

[40:27]

older by then, maybe, he was, let's see, 29 when he left, and six years later, so he was about 35, so she was maybe, what, who knows, late 50s, maybe 60s, early 60s or something, and she, there was also a war, kind of skirmish, a war between, the Sakyan clan, Buddha was Sakyan, from the Sakyan clan, Gotama, and, she, Prajapati, and her sister, were from the Koryan clan, there happened to be, a kind of skirmish, between the two, and people were killed, on both sides, male warriors, were killed, and so there were, a number of, widows, at that time, who were family members, and they came, to Prajapati, for help and solace, she was probably, you know, since she was, the Buddha's foster mother, and aunt, plus, the king's wife,

[41:28]

anyway, she had a lot of status, probably, at that time, and they came to her, for help, and so, and they thought, let us, meanwhile, the Buddha's son, had become a monk, and, so, and Yasodara, his wife, was left without a husband, her son's gone, her father-in-law's gone, so, at that time, in Indian society, ancient Buddhist, ancient, not Buddhist, ancient society, a, a woman, was under the, care, or, under the auspices, of either her, father, then her husband, and then her son, so Yasodara had a male protector, so here, there were a lot of women, close to the Buddha, related family, family ties, perhaps, who, were kind of left, perhaps, this is, this is kind of,

[42:29]

putting together a lot of things, this is what the historians have kind of put together, and they thought, let us go forth, into the homeless life too, and Prajapati, as the senior, elder, was asked, to go, and ask the Buddha, for permission, for the woman to go forth, into the order, and I will read to you, some, because it is nice to hear the language, or, this is in Pali, of course, but, we, you know, it is like reading the Bible, or something. So, would you like to hear, this, this reading? Now, at one time, the Buddha was staying, among the Shakyins, at Kapilavastu, or, in the Banyan Monastery, so by this time, I guess, there were, places set aside, during the rainy season, because they found it, when they walked around, in the rainy season, asking for alms, there were a lot of, insects in India, that were out, and they,

[43:30]

it was muddy, plus, hard to move around, plus they killed insects, when they walked, so, there was a rule made, when the precepts was, during the rainy season, to stay in one place, so, you know, land would be going, so by this time, I guess, they did have, a monastery. Madhya Prajapati Gautami, went to the place, where the Buddha was, approached, and greeted him, and standing, at a respectful distance, spoke to him. It would be good, Lord, if women could be allowed, to renounce their homes, and enter into, the homeless state, under the Dharma, and the discipline, of the Tathagata. Remark, Gautami, don't set your heart, on women being allowed, to do this. A second, and a third time, Tathagati, made the same request, in the same words, and received, the same reply. Enough, Gautami, don't set your heart, on women being allowed, to do this. In thinking, that the Blessed One, would not allow women, to enter into homelessness, she bowed to him,

[44:33]

I think, home leaving, maybe we could say, she bowed to him, and keeping her right side, towards him, and departed, in tears. And this, this detail, of in tears, you find, in all the different, places, where this story is, that she was in tears, for Bhagavad Gita, that she wouldn't be allowed, to join the order. Then the Blessed One, set out for Vesali. Bhagavad Gita, cut off her hair, put on saffron colored robes, and headed for Vesali, with a number, of Shakyamuni women. She arrived, at Kutibara Hall, in the great grove, with swollen feet, and covered with dust, weeping, she stood there, outside the hall. Seeing her standing there, the Venerable Ananda asked, Why are you crying? Because Ananda, the Blessed One, does not permit women, to renounce their homes, and enter into the homeless state, under the Dharma, and discipline, proclaimed by the Tathagata. Then the Venerable Ananda,

[45:34]

went to the Buddha, bowed before him, and took his seat to one side. He said, Prajapati is standing, outside the entrance porch, with swollen feet, covered with dust, and crying, because you do not permit women, to renounce their homes, and enter into the homeless state. It would be good Lord, if women were to have permission, to do this. Enough Ananda, don't set your heart, on women being allowed, to do this. The second, and the third time, Ananda made the same request, in the same words, and received the same reply. Enough Ananda, don't set your heart, on women being allowed, to do this. Then Ananda thought, the Blessed One, does not give his permission. Let me try asking, on other grounds. Ananda was, you know, supposedly very sweet faced, a little bit chunky, a little soft, a little fat, you know, sweet, very pleasing to look at,

[46:35]

beautiful voice. So he took a picture, and said, hmm, the Buddha is, let me try something else. This is the only time, in the scriptures, where the Buddha is known, to have changed his mind. This conversation, with Ananda. So, let me try asking, on other grounds. Are women able, Lord, when they have entered, into homelessness, to realize the fruits, of stream entry, once returning, non-returning, and arhatship? Those are the four, I can't think of the name, of the four, levels. Stream entry, is when you enter, the stream of Buddhism, once returning, returning means, you will only have, one more rebirth, never returning means, this is your last rebirth, and arhatship is,

[47:36]

you know, the noble ones, the ones who have, have really, cool their afflictive, emotions, and understand. So he says, are women able, Lord, to have these four, stream entry, once returnership, non-returning, and arhatship? Yes, Ananda, we are able. If women are able, to realize perfection, and soon, succor you, at your own rest, it would be good, if women could be allowed, to enter into homelessness. If then, Ananda, Prajapati accepts, the eight special rules, let that be reckoned, as her ordination. Now, when Ananda went back, to Prajapati, and, I'll tell you, what the eight special rules are. So, I just want to stop here,

[48:40]

and make commentary, before we talk about, the eight special rules. So, so this, this conversation with Ananda, is very important, in that, at the most, basic level, the Buddha says, there's no difference, between men and women, attaining enlightenment, or hardship, or, in religious practice, there is no difference. And, you know, some of the Judeo-Christian, core teachings, Christian in particular, I believe from my, sort of feminist, spiritual, diatribes, or treatise, maybe, that the hardest thing, is that the kind of, earliest teachings, are that women are not, you know, like the evilness of Eve, and, you know, some very, the original sin, and some very, very basic teachings, that it's very hard,

[49:41]

to kind of get in there, and turn those. But in Buddhism, the core teaching, and in other places too, which we'll talk about, there is no, it's always, that there's no difference. It's the sort of, most basic teaching. So you can, you can, land there, the foundation. And then, there's other things, that get put on top of it, by virtue of social, convention, and cultural, custom, and tradition, and so forth. So we have to be able, to separate out, what's what, and what was, still remains on the Buddhist part, for accepting of the woman's Sangha, and so forth. But this basic teaching, that there is no difference, yes, there is, women are able, that's all. That was enough for him, to change his mind. And, yes. Can I ask a question? Mm-hmm. And, I haven't ever gotten, his thinking, Buddhist thinking, behind why, women shouldn't be allowed. At first.

[50:42]

Yeah. But, that doesn't seem to be explained. Yeah, it's not explained here, and I think there's, I was just reading, a wonderful, little, which I would like to, actually, put in that notebook, a description, of the history, of the nuns, order, the Bhikshun order, and her feeling, this is by, Kabal, Kabal Singh, she's a Thai, doctor, Chatsuman Kabal Singh, she's, she's pretty young. She's a scholar, and her feeling is, there could be many reasons, one that she feels is, it could have been, out of compassion. Here's, Maha Prajapati, here's Prajapati, who had been, born, and taken care of, and lived in a palace, all her life, and here she is, now going to be, walking around, barefoot, begging for food, one meal a day, exposed to the dangers,

[51:43]

of the elements, and, you know, there's, well, later on, women were raped, the nuns were raped, because they were, forest dwellers, they'd be, out by themselves, and so, that's one thought, that here, in this, cultural setting, and in this society, this isn't really safe, for women to lead, the homeless life, the wandering life, which is, so that's one thought, and there's been, a lot of, conjecture about this, that, there is also the fact, that the Buddha, although he was, accepted all castes, and was very egalitarian, he wasn't a reformer, trying to reform society, it was, he was, they were, alongside a society, removed from society, and in, reciprocal relationship, with society, but he wasn't trying, to reform society, other than, people,

[52:44]

reforming their own, individual, lives, you know, he didn't, set out, to do a lot of, social reforms, so, in that way, you know, from the night, from 2000, you know, looking back 2,500 years, we kind of say, well, how come this, the knight and teacher, was not at the forefront of, you know, equality for men and women, and so on and so forth, but, I think, I mean, it's hard for us, to imagine, what it was like, 2,500 years ago, and, so, in terms of, accepting, the, you know, the women's role, in Indian society, at that time, was wife, and mother, pretty much, exclusively, and they lived in the home, as they do today, and that's, that's what this, Dr. Kamal Singh, is talking about, that, that today, in Indian society, it's pretty much, that is the main, role for women,

[53:45]

and, so, for them to, this was a, this broke up families, even when the, when the monks left, when the, men left, and husbands left, this was disrupting, for the families, so for now, the mothers, and the wives, and daughters, for them all to leave, or not all, but for many of them to leave, this was, very, could be seen as very disruptive, to society, so those, are some reasons, that are given, for his hesitation, to, just say, well yeah, sure, of course, or to even be, encouraging, yeah, but I think, you know, the, the fact that, he ended up doing it, you know, is, you know, three cheers, you know, I mean, and, the women,

[54:46]

after being, told no, three times, and then walking, this long way, and just being, so sincere, you know, this particular model, of spiritual practice, I mean, the model of spiritual practice, at that time, I think was, bhakti, or devotion, or giving alms, supporting, laundering aesthetics, and so forth, like, like the woman, who brought the, the rice pudding, to the Buddha, who, she thought he was, some kind of a, tree spirit, or deity, right, you know, so, she brought food, and offered, so I think, there was a role, for lay women, lay men and women, in religious life, definitely, but it was a devotional type, so he was, taking in the practice, and, the sincerity, and the fact that, there was no model, we were, although that, there were, I think the Jains, had women, there were women Jains, at that time, and probably, Yogis too,

[55:47]

because there were words, in Pali, for all the, for different kinds of, women, renunciates of some sort, you know, those who, make it aesthetics, and who wore top knots, and there's different words, for them, so they, I think, in India, there were women, who were, leading some kind of, religious life, but there was no model, I mean, even, even for us now, the, seeing, men and women, who are ordained, or who are lay ordained, priest ordained, that model, or that example, can be a real, encouragement for us, to see, and there was, so the sincerity, of these women, at that time, who didn't have a model, other than the Buddha, and the monks, they thought, we want to live this way too, and, I, I really feel, and also being in contact, with the, nuns, and monks, the fully ordained, recently, their life is,

[56:50]

they take on, a lot, you know, it's, it's not an easy, life to, to, pledge to, and it's, it's for life, too, you know, it's, so, the eight special rules, were given, and I think, these eight special rules, which I will read to you, and I always find this, is something difficult to find, but we can, certainly, talk about it, and there's also, this prediction, at this time, that if women, were not allowed, if they weren't, allowed to renounce, then the Buddhism, and the Dharma, would have lasted much longer, but because I let them, renounce, it's going to be shorter, so that's, you hear this a lot, and I think, there's a, maybe a widespread belief, in, certain, countries, that this is the truth,

[57:52]

that the fact that women, joined the order, meant Buddhism, would die out faster, his supposed prediction, at the time of his decision, addressed to Ananda, was this, if women, had not received permission, to renounce their homes, and enter into homelessness, under the Dharma, and discipline, proclaimed by the Tathagata, then would the period, of religion, have lasted long, the good law, would have stood, for a thousand years, but since women, have now received, that permission, the period of religion, will not last so long, the good law, will now stand fast, for only 500 years, just as houses, in which there are many women, but few men, are easily violated, by robber burglars, just so, under whatever Dharma, and discipline, women are allowed, to renounce their homes, and enter into homelessness, that religion, will not last long, and so forth, so, I have laid down, these eight chief rules, for the Bhikshunis, not to be disregarded, throughout their whole life, now, one thing that's interesting, is that the Dharma, has lasted longer,

[58:52]

than a thousand years, it's been 2,500 years, since the Buddhist time, so in some ways, the prediction, doesn't really hold, although in India, it did die out, and the nuns order, and the monks order, when the Muslims came, let's see, when was it, 1000, the year 1000, I think, all the monasteries, it was wiped out, and you know, the great Nalanda University, it was all destroyed, but it had gone to other countries, so it lasted, in other countries, so these are the eight special rules, and there's another translation in here, that I want to compare, the first rule is, a man, even in a hundred years standing,

[59:53]

shall respectfully greet, rise up in the presence of, bow down before, and perform all proper duties, toward a monk ordained, within a day, so, if you picture, and you've probably seen it, those of you who've traveled in Asia, some of these, old, you know, elder, bhikshinis, who have, and then there's this young kid, who just got her date, she must bow down to him, so this, this is, this is putting in place, within the order, the monks, and nuns order, what was, the social, custom, of, male, privilege, and, patriarchy, I guess, you could say, so, just a second, sorry,

[60:55]

can't find it there, the second one is, a man is not to spend the rainy season, in a district, where there is no monk, so, and the reverse is true, a nun can spend the rainy season, in a district, where there is no nun, but, a nun has to be, kind of under the auspices, and this is, just the same as being, under the auspices, in some ways, of, your father, your husband, or your son, the Catholic Church, with Greece, yeah, that's right, that's right, from the nuns, when this is about, the full moon ceremony, but they did, on the new moon, the full moon, and this was pre-Buddhist, these other wandering, ascetics, would get together, on the new and the full moon, and have teachings, and so, that's our oldest ceremony, our Buddhist, the full moon ceremony, was the oldest, pre-waving, the Buddhists said, well, let's do that too, kind of, because these other guys, are gathering, so let's just go, and, so every half moon, when the moon is full, a man is to await, two things, from the order of monks,

[61:56]

the date, of the Uposatha ceremony, the full moon, or the new moon ceremony, and the time, the monks will come together, to give teaching, so they have to come together, for that, recitation, and the monks teach them, after the rains retreat, the nuns are to hold, kind of a rana, which is, a ceremony, at the end of like, a practice period, at the end of the three month, the rain, where the practice period, is based on the three month, rainy season, the 90 day, practice period, that we have, is based on, that calendar, rainy season, after the rains retreat, the nuns, are to hold, the ceremony, which inquires, as to whether any faults, have been committed, during the practice period, we can't have a ceremony, like, in full, before both Sanghas, that of the monks, and that of the nuns, in respect to, what has been seen, what has been heard, and what has been suspected, so that's all, this concluding ceremony,

[62:57]

for the, has to be done, the nuns have to do it, with the nuns, with the monks, number five, a nun, who has been guilty, of a serious offense, must undergo, a particular discipline, Manata, before both Sanghas, that of the monks, and that of the nuns, so, the monks, only do it with monks, the nuns, for discipline, have to have both, six, when a novice, has trained, for two years, in the six precepts, the first five precepts, plus the precept, of taking one meal, a day, before noon, she should seek, ordination, from both Sanghas, so the nun, had to receive, ordination from both, and also, I believe, but we'll study this, I think, I think this is true, that, there was no novice period, for the monks, the nuns had a novice, training, before, for ordination, but, the monks just, were allowed, to take for ordination,

[63:58]

right away, and number seven, the nun is not to, be violated, or abuse, a monk, under any circumstances, right, you would think, well sure, you know, you wouldn't want, a nun to revile, or rebuke, or revile, or abuse, but, does that also mean, you know, helpful criticism, and pointing out, where someone needs to do, a little more work, I mean, or, revile, or abuse, right, I agree, but does that also mean, that, the monks can revile, and abuse nuns, yeah, I don't, I doubt whether, the Buddha, that there would be, a precept that says, monks, must, revile, abuse, or are able to, or are given permission to, but this thing about, criticism, and chastisement, and at that level, nuns are not able, to do that, admonition, oh, this is admonition, by nuns, of monks,

[64:59]

is forbidden, admonition is okay, admonition is helpful, criticism, so, the nuns can't revile, abuse, but not even admonitions, admonitions, by nuns, of monks, is forbidden, admonition, of nuns, by monks, is not forbidden, so, those are the eight, special rules, and Prajapati, Mahaprajapati, um, took a look, at those, and, um, said, okay, but, she also, said, and this is in the story, less frequently told, Prajapati returned, with a further request, the implementation, of her request, would annul, the first one, she said, to the Buddha, I would ask, one thing, of the blessed one, Ananda, she asked to Ananda, it would be good, if the blessed one, would align, making salutations, standing up, in the presence, of another, paying reverence, and the proper performance, of duties, to take place,

[65:59]

equally, between, both bhikshus, and bhikshunis, according to seniority, and the venerable, Ananda, went to the blessed one, and repeated, her words to him, this is impossible, Ananda, and I cannot allow it, even those teachers, of false Dharma, don't permit, such conduct, in relation to women, how much less, than the, can the Tathagata, allow it, so, this particular one, that first one, about a monk, about a monk, a man of a hundred years, must bow down, give her seat to, and so forth, and, now, there are certain things, that were changed, according to circumstances, for example, there's a story, where an old man, a bhikshuni, of a hundred years, was, would walk to the village, and beg in the village, and bring back, her food, and there was, this young monk, sort of lounging, by the gate, who hadn't walked, the long way, to the village, and he was begging, with his bowl right, there by the monastery,

[67:00]

and so, she gave him, her food, and he ate it up, and then she couldn't eat, after twelve, so she had nothing to eat, that day, then she went the next day, walked to the village, got her food, came back, and there he was again, she gave her food to him, the next day, and the third day, she did this, she collapsed, in a faint, and a layman, in a carriage, saw her, took her into the carriage, and carried her back, to the monastery, and told the Buddha, and said, this is not good, that this old, elderly lady, has been giving her food, to this young monk, and so, the Buddha said, that alms collected, by nuns, may not be given, to monks, so, you know, this thing of, by circumstances, there are, changes, you know, yes, she's supposed to bow down, to and so forth, but, if she collects her alms, she can only eat them, and it's protected, also, there were rules, whereby, the nuns were not allowed, to sow, wash, clean, you know,

[68:01]

and, do all these, household duties, for the monks, but, the Buddha, set that, in motion, and, that's one of the precepts, so, so, there are, the eight special rules, and then, there's these safeguards, for the monks, so that they wouldn't become, just, housekeepers, and maids, you know, to the temple servants, or, or something, so, the feeling is that, yes, there were the eight special rules, and, at the same time, the nuns had, equal opportunity, for, their, spiritual practice, and teaching, that they were taught, the Buddha taught, and, anyway, equally spiritually, supposedly, but, because, the conventional, the cultural setting, and the social setting, was different, eventually, what happened, a great effect, on the nuns order, and, it, it died out,

[69:04]

and there's, it died out, perhaps, it, it diminished, quite a bit, before the Muslims, came to, yeah, Muslims, to actually destroy, it completely, it had died out, quite a bit, also, because, of these eight special rules, like the admonishment, though, women, it was, very difficult for women, to be in a teaching relationship, with, the male monks, because, to be in a teaching relationship, you have to be able to, point things out, and admonish, and that would be part of, teacher-student relationships, to be able to do that, and, and this, particular rule, made that almost impossible, and so, women then, did not become, teachers for both monks and nuns, although there's nothing, nothing that says they can't be a teacher, to both monks and nuns, this admonishment one, perhaps, kept that from happening,

[70:07]

also, because, women, were seen as, less, because monks were treated, thought of as being higher, hierarchically higher, they often got more donations of, land from monasteries, food and money, and, where did they get money, but all the essentials, and, they were educated, and they were treated in that way, so the nuns, because they were not educated, as well, and had less economic, means, they were less able, to take care of themselves, so there's various reasons, that are pointed to, why these eight special rules, eventually, contributed to the demise, of the nuns order, it was flourishing, at a time,

[71:10]

in fact, there's, this new book, that's just come out, called, Women's Buddhism, Buddhism's Women, or vice versa, but anyway, there's a whole chapter in there, about this, place where there's these, big stupas, in India, and there's donations, made by monks and nuns, for these, places where you circumambulate, there's these stones, and some of you may have been there, in India, Sanchi, I mean Sanchi, if you've been there, with great big stupas, and, anyway, there's great big stupas, and then, places to circumambulate, in the stupas, the Buddhist relics, or, in this particular place, Shariputra, somebody else's relics, are there as well, and there's these stones, that were donated, and they're all chiseled, and beautifully fitted together, to make a beautiful, circumambulation makli, and they're all inscribed, by the donor, or someone inscribed them, for the donor,

[72:10]

and half of them, are from nuns, so to have the wherewithal, to make a donation, of this kind, also, there's railings, with inscriptions, so these were all donations, to a major Buddhist, you know, site, that was being constructed, at the time, and nuns, are almost equal, to monks, in these donations, which, you know, you wonder about, I thought they weren't supposed, to be able to handle money, so how did they make, the donation for this, so they may have had, economic means, or family gifts, or whatever, this, I mean, this is from the third, century BCE, that shows, this is historical evidence, you know, a flourishing nuns, order, that if they were able, to do this kind of donation, but that eventually, died down,

[73:11]

and, this, Chinese, monk pilgrims, who came, at a certain time, and they were, later on, and, after the, bhikshuni order, had come to China, and they write, in their diaries, or whatever, that the bhikshunis, in India, were, you know, had raggedy robes, and looked uncared for, so that's, attested, by pilgrims, of China, later on, so, and, you know, there's various things to point to, about why, it may have happened, but the eight special rules, you can see, how that may have led to, the, the, impossibility of, certain things to be put in place. Is there any speculation, about those rules, by anyone?

[74:12]

About the eight? Well, there is some sense that, you know, the Buddha, nothing was written down, during the Buddha's time, everything was oral, it was all memorized, and all orally, recited, and, the first Buddhist council, that took place, right after the Buddha died, Ananda, who was supposed to have, remembered everything the Buddha ever said, and was with him, for all those years, recited everything, and it was all checked, and they all checked, to make sure that, that was their understanding, and, there was recitation, and for, hundreds of years, it was recited, so, actually, what we have in writing, was, did not occur until, way after the Buddha died, I think the first things that were written down, were maybe, five, I should check this, double check this, but, maybe 500 years after the Buddha died, they began to write things down, so, you could almost say, that everything we have, you know,

[75:12]

is open to, I mean, I think you could say that, although, um, so, you know, were the eight special rules, a later, accretion, is that the word, that was, put in by later monks, and they said the Buddha said this, and it just, who wanted to keep, maybe it was more dietary, just like in the early Christian times, you know, it was very, equal, um, from my understanding about, the early monastic, gospels and so forth, it was, and then later on, there became a, more patriarchal thing, and of course, there's a whole theory about, the written word, and, um, and the subjugation of, the feminine, which, is another whole, very fascinating topic, and there's a book called, The Goddess and the Alphabet,

[76:14]

I don't know if you're familiar with it, but, it goes into this, cross-culturally, where the alphabet, came in, and written word, and how, partnership, societies became, sub, dominated, and women became, subjugated. So, you know, there's a lot of ways to look at this. Yes? There's something about, um, you read about, why this was set up, why the eight special laws were set up, that, um, in, in the, where there were more women than men, the burghers, women, which reminds me of, of, um, stories, where women were raped, by monks, and then, this, the consequence was, that women's, freedom of movement, was, uh, curtailed. Yes. So that the women actually, paid for the behavior, of the monks, and this seems very, similar to me.

[77:14]

Yes. Yes. So, um, that's true, what, what Tova says. The women, at first, were just like the monks, in that they wandered, and were in the forest, meditating by themselves, under trees, solitary wanderers, they would go for alms, and so forth. They would come together, on the new and full moon. And then, uh, there were these rapes, that happened, that were then told, to the Buddha, and he said, women were not allowed, to go single, they had to be in twos, wherever they go. They could not, go out, solitarily, anymore. Which is, um, you know, this book is called, Sisters in Solitude. This is, um, those of you who have roomies, you know, I mean it's, um, you know, it's hard, you know, to be, having to always be with someone, but, and my understanding is that, it was for their protection, out of compassion, but, of course, um, they also, kind of,

[78:16]

paid the price, which is that, they lost their, this freedom of, going into the, home, medians, in the same way. And, yes, so, a house full of women, is, is more vulnerable, to these robbers, and so, we're not going to let women, be a house full of women, you know, rather than looking at, where the problem is, but, um, and I think, there's, but there's the opposite too, and it came upon this one, about this thing, about abusing and reviling, um, let's see, did I mark it here? Let's see if I can remember the story. Um, there were some women, who, uh, took their robes up, and showed the, the men's, their thighs, for some reason, and, so, the Buddha, said, that,

[79:17]

uh, those, oh yeah, the Buddha said, those monks, the men's do not have to, um, respect them, and, uh, whatever that first rule is, they don't have to, you know, only those who are respected, are worthy of their respect. Now, I thought that was, a very, accurate, kind of, further refinement, of that first rule, it's not, every Tom, Dick, and Harry, you know, it's those who are worthy of their respect, of any, whenever they were ordained, but not, somebody who's abusing and reviling, you don't have to, show respect, and get up in their presence, so forth. So, there were these refinements, that, in that case, I think, what happened, but, I suppose you could say, the monks lost, that particular, um, privilege, they had, you know, of being treated, um, with greater respect, you know, they lost that, by their own actions,

[80:17]

so, I think that's another, yeah, yeah. This one story. Yeah, this one story, um, I'll find it, and read it, if it's, if I said it wrong, but, no, I think that's it, that's short of my thighs, for some reason. Um, let's see, um, it's about, oh, I have a watch right here, so I can see, it's about five minutes to nine. Um, there's, one of the things to say, about these eight special rules, because we're still, we still feel the reverberation, of these eight special rules, in, um, the practice, present-day, Theravadan countries, I, I, I think we feel it the least, in, the, in the West, because, um, we wouldn't stand for it, I guess, but, Western,

[81:17]

nuns, and monastics, who take these on, take these on, and they have to, they have to, wrestle, with these, because the whole thing, the Buddha, after, right, on his deathbed, he said, you can let go of the minor precepts, whatever the minor, but he didn't say what the minor ones were, so during this first council, they gathered together, and they said, Amanda, in fact, said the Buddha said, we could let go of the minor ones, but for somebody, that one's minor, and somebody else, that's not minor, that's really important, so they couldn't decide, so they said, we'll keep them all, so, um, so, for somebody, now, or daily, a westerner, who's used to being, women especially, used to being treated, more or less, if not, true, thorough, um, uh, parity, you know,

[82:19]

we have laws here, and you know, so on and so forth, but to actually take these on, and then, live them in your daily life, again, what that means, for your spiritual practice, and, the practice of, patience, selflessness, or whatever, and that kind of training, that they take on, very normally, and willingly, uh, in order to, lead this life, so, and people say, I don't understand it, you know, this, and this, at this conference, where I was at, and I was with the monastics, in a number of meetings, they were talking about, in fact, it, it was in a day, a big shooting, he went down to the center, where she was treated, very disrespectful, by another, by a monk, and she told this story, it was something about, some job that, I can't remember the details, but another one of the, monks, while listening to this story, at this conference,

[83:20]

started crying, because he, first of all, and he was, and, the, the group got very silent, and, and then someone else, began to talk, this isn't, excuse me, if it sounds like a praising self, at the expense of others, but I, I thought, I cannot let this guy, sit over here, weeping, without hearing, what's going on with him, so I said, do you want to dip, you know, I didn't say dip, dip is a communication term, but I said, would you be willing to share, so he did say, that he felt that, there was this bhikshuni, being disparaged, and it was, he was, and so the monk, was breaking the, the, precept of disparaging, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, and she's a member of the Sangha, and the, the kind of, he was, weeping for her, that she was treated that way, after receiving Buddha's precepts, and living this life,

[84:20]

and then being treated this way, and then the, kind of consequences, for this monk, who, by virtue of his social conditioning, was treating her this way, and the, the karmic weight, now falling on him, and he was just like, he was undone by this, so it was, you know, they take it very seriously, and, yeah, but you get into these situations, where, a friend in a Theravada monastery, you know, you can't touch, men and women can't touch, so she was working, and she had to put the tool down there, and then move away, so then he could pick the tool up, you know, and it's degrading, you might feel it's degrading, or you could say, this is a very, thorough, practice, of patience, and all sorts of other things, that I don't really understand yet, but I'm willing to, throw myself in, you know, but you can imagine,

[85:22]

what comes up, of anger, and, and then of course, it, constellates one's own, internalized, shame, and, devalue, feelings, and all of it, you know, it's, there it is, and then, how do you turn that, you know, so it's a very, I think it's, there's a lot there, there's a lot there, and, you know, I think we, need it in other ways, you know, and, not necessarily, as blatantly as that, but we, so it's nine o'clock, so, oh, I wanted to give you my silence, let's see, you probably all know in my heart, I wanted to do, oh, before, let, let's just sort of, give them in a sense, and then we'll,

[86:22]

give them these sounds, very, and then,

[86:28]

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